Uneven dye

[Dave Squires]

368609368609I have some hard maple that I'm staining, I used J.E. Moser aniline dye with a mix of ebony and jacobean. You can see that the stain is very uneven. I sanded it with 220 and applied it with a sponge and wiped off. Any suggestions to apply this with a more even coat? This is just a test piece, will test some more, but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Edit: Sorry for the weird formatting of the image - not sure how to embed it.

[John TenEyck]

The only way I have been successful getting dye on maple without blotching is to spray it, and to spray it so there is no excess that can migrate. There are a lot of work arounds for those stuck with doing it by hand, but spraying is straight forward if you have that capability. If you don't, it might be time to seriously consider it.

John

[Dave Squires]

368619Ah yeah I'm not setup to spray, but will look into that for future projects. I just did another test and applied 50/50 mix of shellac seal coat and denatured alcohol (on the right side). This definitely seemed to help big time. Does this look like a decent stain job this way? There's some blotch I guess, but much improved.

[John TenEyck]

That's one of the classic remedial approaches and it looks much improved.

John

[Wayne Lomman]

You can further improve it by selectively staining to apply more colour to lighter areas. There is no rule that says stain a whole surface all the same. I can't really show you in this medium but the idea is to colour match as much as you can now. Cheers

[Doug Hepler]

Dave,

The sample on the right looks fine to me. A washcoat usually works well for me to prevent blotching on maple and cherry, etc. A washcoat will reduce the amount of stain or dye that the wood will take. I try not to change color quite as much as you did here, but if I have to I "accept" the color I get from stain/dye over washcoat and then use toning coats to increase the color.

John is right, this is a place that skillful spraying can really be useful, but I manage with brushed-on toner. It takes a little longer, and probably more test pieces on scrap.

Doug

[Al Launier]

I've no experience using dyes to finish wood, but have successfully used a pre-stain wood conditioner on some woods (pollar, maple, etc.) prior to using oil-based stains to minimize/prevent blotching. If compatible with dyes, a pre-stain wood conditioner might be a good "solution". If deciding to use a pre-stain wood conditioner you could even apply a second coat to an area(s) of wood that seems to absorb the pre-stain wood conditioner faster than other areas to even things out.

[Prashun Patel]

The sample on the right looks fine to me.

It's still wise to dye the unseen parts of your piece first to confirm that your actual results are repeatable and match your test. Is that maple veneered plywood? If yes, then beware that the dye results on the veneer and any solid parts may vary.

[Dave Squires]

368751Thanks everyone for the responses. So, I went ahead and did the project with the conditioner then stained it and it came out horrible. There were some parts of the maple that even if I let it puddle on top of, just would take no stain at all. I decided to scratch the whole idea and burn it. I took a torch and torched the whole thing, brushed it, then applied GF Java Gel Stain. It's a totally different look then I was originally going with, but I like it - even though the torch did burn away some of that glue line - I guess it's rustic?

You'll notice though there are some spots that are a little more matte than others, I'm not sure if this is due to the burning or the wood or bad stain job... but I'm thinking i'll give another coat of the stain, fairly thinly and whip off quick and clean. Not sure if anyone has any other suggestions related to that... but I think in the future, I'll stick to oil based stains - and likely not maple.

[Bennett Ostroff]

In the future you could just spray the dye on from a spray bottle. Also I would only sand maple to about 120 - any finer and you're increasing the risk of blotching, even with dye.

[John TenEyck]

That's the problem with conditioners. What works on a small sample may not be representative of the actual piece. Maple and cherry are notorious for blotching, as you have seen. Stains are often no better than dyes; hate to burst your bubble. It's why I recommended spraying.

But there's hope if you can't spray. Start out with a very dilute dye; doesn't matter if it blotches, then seal the wood with shellac. Next apply a gel stain to get the color you want, or a little lighter, the idea here is to get an even color everywhere. Seal it again. If it's too light apply a glaze, could even be your gel stain again, very lightly to bring it to your final color. Yep, seal it again, and then apply your finish. Versions of this approach are often used with nasty wood, even for those who have spray equipment.

John

[Edwin Santos]

Another avenue when faced with a dilemma like yours is to tone instead of stain. Add a toner like Transtint dye into your clear finish (i.e. shellac, water based poly) and then brush or pad the toned finish although spraying is better when toning if you are able. Adding yet another option would be toning as described and then applying a gel stain or glaze which you can completely remove now that the wood is sealed which allows you to proceed with confidence. You can leave excess glaze in crevices to simulate age or not, and using a dry brush for blending can even out areas of contrast. The idea with glaze is to lay it on in a hasty, sloppy way, and remove it until you are left with the desired effect. If you don't like that, then remove it all and try again. There will surely be many videos on YouTube demonstrating glazing. After the glaze dries, topcoat with clear finish. This probably sounds more complicated than it really is.

Sorry the conditioner got fickle on you. Regards,

[Andy Giddings]

For woods like Maple, instead of using a straight dye, I've had better luck with General Finishes Water Based Wood Stains (not their dye). Easy to apply and easy to get an even color

[Justin Ludwig]

Maple, Cherry, Alder, Birch and Pine all love to blotch. It's inherent in their grain structure.

Two courses of action:

1.) A wash coat to seal the grain first, sand again to denib with 180-220 grit. Wipe on stain. Wipe off stain. Repeat staining to desired tint.
This method takes the longest, but uses the least amount of material.

2.) Spray a NGR stain like these (http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=178). A gravity feed HVLP gun and 6psi of air is all that is needed. Even the small portable compressors can handle the CFM.

I use Gemini's NGR dyes and stain base, but you can't find it in minimal quantities (I have about 2k invested in dyes and base). This method uses more material but takes a fraction of the time. My time is way more $$ than the material.


Spraying takes practice if you've never done it.

[George Bokros]

Charles Neil Blotch Control worked great for me on maple and cherry. One maple project was dyed with TransTint die mixed with water, another maple project was stained with Varathane solvent based stain, a cherry project was done with GF dye stain. All came out great.

[Thomas L Carpenter]

This is a great thread. Lotsa things to try on the white pine desk I've just screwed up trying to use a Minwax stain over too heavy a wash coat of amber shellac. Will probably wind up painting it and donating it to a Special Olympics garage sale somewhere but may try a few of these things first.