Ancient Tools - The Stringline

[Stanley Covington]

368596



The stringline is simply a string. Sometimes it is called a dryline because chalk or ink are not applied, and it does not leave a mark. The humble stringline has been an important tool in construction and woodworking long before Himiunu was pacing off Cheops' resurrection pile.

Do you own a really precise steel straightedge a meter or yard long? Most woodworkers don't. They are horribly expensive, a pain to store and haul around, and don't tend to stay straight. But in the horizontal direction, a taught stringline is perfectly straight over its entire distance, be that 1 yard or 100 yards. Think about it. I hope you can see the power of this inexpensive tool.

One common and ancient application of the stringline is to check the straightness of a board, wall, concrete form, doorframe, cabinet carcass, etc.. For this you need a good stringline, hooks or pins, and three small blocks of wood perhaps 1/2" square and 2" long. Hooks can be made from wire, pins can be made from nails, and you already know how to make the small blocks of wood. I use 2 of the plastic widgets in the attached picture which combines pins (for pushing into wood) and a hook into a single tool with a cap. They can also be secured with a nail.

To use the stringline, hook, pin, or nail one end on the board, wall, concrete formwork, doorframe, floor, ceiling, cabinet carcase, etc. to be checked (the "Thing"). Stretch the stringline very tight, and hook/pin/nail the stringline to the opposite edge of the Thing. Insert one of the blocks of wood you prepared under the stringline at each end. The stringline is now stretched more-or-less 1/2" away from the Thing's surface. Now, place your third block of wood between the stringline and Thing's surface, and move it the length of the stringline. Wherever the block lightly kisses the stringline without making it deflect, the surface is "in line" with both of its ends. Where there is a gap, the surface has a depression or "swamp" relative to its ends. Where the traveling block makes the string bow out, the surface has a "belly." Use a pencil, lumber crayon, or chalk to mark the swamps with a circle, and the bellys with a + mark.

Note there are limits to the accuracy of this method when the string is stretched over the top of or underneath a Thing because gravity makes it sag in the middle. The longer the distance, the greater the sag. It can be reduced by stretching the stringline tighter. But you can easily account for the sag if you pay attention.

I don't layout buildings or walls anymore, but I find myself using a stringline frequently when conducting quality inspections of jobsites and factory inspections of construction materials and assemblies. In many cases, it is the only tool for the job.

More times than I can count I have asked a contractor on the jobsite if his stud/gypboard walls, concrete forms/walls, block walls, or ceilings are straight. "Yassir," he always says, "straight as a frikin arrow." He'll pull out a 1-meter straightedge, press it against the surface, and say "See?" It looks pretty good, dagnabit. Then I stretch my stringline, fiddle with my blocks and pencil, and show him the truth. I take pictures, and leave the stringline in place so he and his layout crew, framing crew, drywall crew, and their QC dude, can check for themselves. More frequently than I like, I have to show them how its done. Embarrassing for them, but its my yob. I usually need to do this only two or three times before the contractor gets the hint and starts making his walls/ceilings straight, but if his work product is still sub-standard, I make him tear it out and redo. Ouch.

A similar situation occurs regularly when I inspect curtainwall frames (sash) or tall doorframes, especially stainless steel doors and doorframes. These expensive products have specified tolerances. During an inspection at the jobsite or factory, the manufacturer and installer always respond to my polite questions about tolerances with "Yassir, straight as frikin arrow," and with great dignity press their $20 scratched and dinged straightedge against the beautifully polished stainless steel surface while they smile at me indulgently as if I was a small schoolboy with a snot bubble coming out my nose. But 6 times out of 10, my unpretentious stringline and little blocks of wood, combined with feeler gauges, send them beetling away in a panic to find their QC dude.

This ancient tools works well in the woodshop too when you need to check for the flatness of a board or tabletop or workbench, or the alignment of cabinet frames.

Another common but more elegant application is testing for wind or flatness. Let's say, for example, that you need to install an h84" x w72" double door frame in a wall. Do you own 2 ten foot straightedges or winding sticks to check for twist in the assembly? How would you even using winding sticks on a doorframe in a wall? This job has been handled by stringlines forever, and the technique has applications everywhere in woodworking and construction. Sadly, most craftsmen settle for using a spirit level nowadays, and the resulting quality is quite poor.

First, plane the sides and top of the doorframe's edges straight and square. Your stringline, used as in the example above, can help with this. Then assemble the doorframe with all 3 members square and properly aligned. Then mount one side in the opening, plumb it in both axis (a plumbline is better, but I will save plumblines for another post in this series about ancient tools), and tack it into place. I assume you know how to use wedge shims to ensure it is installed straight without bending, bowing, or "doing the wave."

You need to have a temporary spreader board attached between the two uprights to keep the bottom of the doorframe opening the precise width.

Second, pin one end of your stringline at one corner, pull it across the opening (not too taut), and pin it to the diagonal corner. Let's call this the "inside string." Now pin a stringline across the other diagonal. Let's call this the "outside string." The two diagonals form an "X" which is a name given to this technique. Wrap the same stringline 5 to 8 times around each end of the outside string where it rides over the frame's corners. The string must be wrapped very neatly so there is only one layer of string between it and the wood. No doubling up. This wrapping will elevate the outside string precisely the thickness of the string away from the inside string when the doorframe's edges are in plane. A slicker and quicker method is to make two shims the same thickness as the string and slip them under the outside string's ends instead of wrapping with string.

Now, adjust the position of the unmounted vertical doorframe member so the two strings just kiss and bounce, and then kiss and bounce. If you paid attention, the doorframe is now in a single plane and free of twist. Check the doorframe during and after installation to make sure it stays free of wind.

Do you have a workbench top or tabletop or countertop or large cabinet assembly that you need to make flat and free of wind, but is too big for your straightedges or winding sticks? Give this technique a try. It never fails. Combine it with wooden blocks and a pencil, and you will be master of all you survey.

The precision of this tool is improved in manufacturing by using thin, kink-free steel wires stretched tightly and given an electrical charge. When the two wires touch, a circuit is closed and a light goes on or a buzzer sounds.

A stringline must be a balance of thin and strong. A good stringline will be tightly wound, with a smooth-ish surface, versus being corrugated like a manila-rope hawser, and not hairy with frayed threads. A fuzzy stringline is absolutely useless for this job. I have never seen a usable stringline being sold at a big-box home center, BTW. The old woven nylon fishing lines were pretty good. Good stringlines can still be found in Japan.

A bright flashlight can be useful in seeing swamps, bellys, and stringline contact.

The world's best craftsmen have used stringlines for thousands of years. Give it a try.

Please add your experiences and techniques to this thread.

Stan

[Frederick Skelly]

No experiences to add - just wanted to say thanks for another excellent lesson!
Fred

[Stanley Covington]

No experiences to add - just wanted to say thanks for another excellent lesson!
Fred

You are welcome, Fred. Sorry it is sooo long.

Stan

[James Pallas]

This is my quick easy and cheap board evaluation set up.
Jim

[Jeff Bartley]

Stan, your method of hanging doors is exactly how I've done it, except for the wrap around the second string. I usually just hold the second string and bring it to the frame while watching the point where the two meet. Your method is definitely more accurate! I use a spacer at the bottom too, never knew anyone else did that!

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, your method of hanging doors is exactly how I've done it, except for the wrap around the second string. I usually just hold the second string and bring it to the frame while watching the point where the two meet. Your method is definitely more accurate! I use a spacer at the bottom too, never knew anyone else did that!

I see you have a classical education! When I was a green-as-grass apprentice, I was helper to a old retrobate in his 70's who specialized in doorframes and doors. Las Vegas hotels have a lot of doors, mostly heavy steel. The pressure to install 5 doors/frames per hour (including hinges but not knobs, closures, peepholes etc.) was high, but he never slacked on straight, square, and twist. We used these techniques on over a thousand doors during the time I worked with him.

[Stanley Covington]

This is my quick easy and cheap board evaluation set up.
Jim

Thanks, Jim. I like the plumbob/line/chalkbox combination!

[Brian Holcombe]

The string line! A wonderful post Stan. My father is a metal fabricator and these are some of his preferred methods for checking, a very handy tool indeed!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

You are welcome, Fred. Sorry it is sooo long.

Stan

For what it is worth, posts like this are why I joined SMC. I don't need another sharpening thread with nine pages of debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Stuff like this, feel free to make it as long as you want.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Tip hat to Master Covington...

Thanks for the informative post.

[steven c newman]

Used a stringline every day as a concrete form carpenter......Helped when straightening long wall forms....also help when straightening a stick-built wall. Used both a Red Chalk line, and a blue chalk line.....and a 100' straight line reel. Needed to layout a radius for a parking curb? Stake at one end, measure out to the length of the radius, and mark as you walked along with a spray can of paint. Then bend the forms to match.

One thing...string lines need to be pulled tight as you can get them. Lines tend to sag otherwise. Almost an art form, when it comes to tying off a line. There is a special knot to use....

[Patrick Chase]

Excellent lesson as always Stan. I do have to nit-pick one teeny tiny point:



Do you own a really precise steel straightedge a meter or yard long? Most woodworkers don't. They are horribly expensive, a pain to store and haul around, and don't tend to stay straight.

You were OK right to to "don't tend to stay straight". My Starrett 385-48 (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Straight-Edges/Precision-Rules,-Straight/Precision-Hand-Tools/Precision-Measuring-Tools/385-48) was stupidly expensive (it cost more than many "premium" handplanes!), and is a pain to store and haul around, particularly when you consider the importance of preserving my investment. It and similar straight edges are however stable as a rock. I've seen very old ones that are still good to within microns, provided they weren't abused.

Straight edges and stringlines are really different tools for different purposes. The straightedge is expensive, inconvenient, and short but is accurate to within 0.8 mils (~20 microns) over 4 feet. The stringline is small, portable, cheap, and much longer, but has much higher uncertainty. The braiding of the stirng alone adds more imprecision to any given point than the straightedge accumulates over its entire length, but for most purposes we simply don't care, and the stringline is therefore the more appropriate tool.

[Stanley Covington]

Used a stringline every day as a concrete form carpenter......Helped when straightening long wall forms....also help when straightening a stick-built wall. Used both a Red Chalk line, and a blue chalk line.....and a 100' straight line reel. Needed to layout a radius for a parking curb? Stake at one end, measure out to the length of the radius, and mark as you walked along with a spray can of paint. Then bend the forms to match.

One thing...string lines need to be pulled tight as you can get them. Lines tend to sag otherwise. Almost an art form, when it comes to tying off a line. There is a special knot to use....

A perfect set of examples, Steve. Thank you. I think I know the knot you mentioned, but please favor us with a description if you would.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Excellent lesson as always Stan. I do have to nit-pick one teeny tiny point:



You were OK right to to "don't tend to stay straight". My Starrett 385-48 (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Straight-Edges/Precision-Rules,-Straight/Precision-Hand-Tools/Precision-Measuring-Tools/385-48) was stupidly expensive, and is a pain to store and haul around (particularly when you consider the importance of preserving my investment), but it and similar straight edges are stable as a rock. I've seen very old ones that are still good to within microns, provided they weren't abused.

Straight edges and stringlines are really different tools for different purposes. The straightedge is expensive, inconvenient, and short but is accurate to within 0.8 mils (~20 microns) over 4 feet. The stringline is small, portable, cheap, and much longer, but has much higher uncertainty. The braiding of the stirng alone adds more imprecision to any given point than the straightedge accumulates over its entire length, but for most purposes we simply don't care, and the stringline is therefore the more appropriate tool.

I must respectfully disagree with you about the stability of even expensive straightedges, especially if they are used outside of temperature-controlled environments, or spend time in a pickup truck's toolbox. And how many concrete walls will it take to degrade mils of accuracy?

I agree with your point about braiding, but this thread is not about precision tools, or tolerances less than can be judged by Mark-1 Eyeball.

I can almost see those tiny winged angels dancing away... is it the samba? Or maybe the merengue? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtTB7gfnEgs

[steven c newman]

Make a loop around a finger...spin the loop about 10 turns...slip the loop over the pin/nail/stake. Pull as tightly as you can. wrap the rest of the line around the loop in a figure 8 fashion. Line will stay tight, yet release when needed...takes about 30 seconds to tie.

Hook end went under a square of 3/4" plywood scrap. Nail that to one end of the top plate of a wall. go to the other end of the wall, pull line tight and add to another such block. Use a ladder and a third block to straighten the wall. Block to check the "gap", turnbuckle braces to adjust in or out.

[Stanley Covington]

Make a loop around a finger...spin the loop about 10 turns...slip the loop over the pin/nail/stake. Pull as tightly as you can. wrap the rest of the line around the loop in a figure 8 fashion. Line will stay tight, yet release when needed...takes about 30 seconds to tie.

Hook end went under a square of 3/4" plywood scrap. Nail that to one end of the top plate of a wall. go to the other end of the wall, pull line tight and add to another such block. Use a ladder and a third block to straighten the wall. Block to check the "gap", turnbuckle braces to adjust in or out.

Thanks Steve. Great explanation. That's the same knot my Dad taught me. Of course, you know that if you push the looped string back towards the nail after stretching the stringline, the string it will usually knot itself automatically. It works perfectly.

And your explanation for checking/straightening a wall is excellent. Thanks.

[Mike Holbrook]

Love this post Stan. I will be rereading it many times to make sure I find all it has to offer. Great methods to use when working from logs or rough lumber, which have a tendency to not be exactly straight, yet challenge a "straightedge". Conventional wisdom suggests using "chalk lines". In my experience these are less accurate than what you describe. You should write this up in greater detail and send it to Lost Art Press. They may turn it into something similar to "By Hound & Eye". Love simpler, older methods, especially when they work better than more conventional methods.

Now all I have to do is figure out how to make or buy the pieces to use these methods. Oddly a search on Lee Valley on "Stringline" finds nothing and an Amazon search finds lots of incorrect items. Do they sell similar devices somewhere? Is there a more detailed design somewhere? I can think of lots of ways to make something similar, but rather than debugging my own idea...

[Stanley Covington]

Love this post Stan. I will be rereading it many times to make sure I find all it has to offer. Great methods to use when working from logs or rough lumber, which have a tendency to not be exactly straight, yet challenge a "straightedge". Conventional wisdom suggests using "chalk lines". In my experience these are less accurate than what you describe. You should write this up in greater detail and send it to Lost Art Press. They may turn it into something similar to "By Hound & Eye". Love simpler, older methods, especially when they work better than more conventional methods.

Now all I have to do is figure out how to make or buy the pieces to use these methods. Oddly a search on Lee Valley on "Stringline" finds nothing and an Amazon search finds lots of incorrect items. Do they sell similar devices somewhere? Is there a more detailed design somewhere? I can think of lots of ways to make something similar, but rather than debugging my own idea...

Re the stringline, I have not bought one in the States for many years. They used to sell mason's lines of various thicknesses, and the finest was close to what I can get here in Japan.

Hooks are easy to make from wire or sheet metal.

The pins I learned to use in the States were made by carpenters. A sharpened finish nail glued into a hole in a rounded bit of wood works fine. The Japanese wooden "karuko" in the picture attached to my first post is a refinement of the same idea. The tips are hardened, fearfully sharp, and easy to push into the wood. If I was going to make one in the States, I think I would start with those hardened steel skinny nails used to hang pictures, and grind/polish to the right shape and finish.

I have no doubt you could make a version of the combo-tool with hook, pin, and self-centering hole for a nail from wood and sheet metal. The cap is a nice feature since it keeps the pins from poking hole in your hide. Not sure how to make a cap....

[steven c newman]

Go out and buy a new chalk line...do NOT add any chalk to the box. This is now your dry line box. The "tab" on the end ( of the better boxes) is a hook, you can either use the hook part of the tab, or use a small nail into the end of the board. Use a chisel to make a small notch at the other end of the board, pull the line tight and into the notch...you can then add thin scraps under the line at each end. The third can be used along the length of the board....

[Rush Paul]

Excellent! Another thank you for this post.

[Pat Barry]

Great idea with the string for door installation. I really could have used this a little while back. Door hanging is one of my least favorite things to do. This seems like it would have solved many problems for me. I will have the opportunity to use it though, in the not too distant future.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks Stan and Steven. I will work from those ideas. I am thinking two stringline/chalkboxes (less the chalk), one with the tab/hook on the end and a second, like James shows above, with a plumb bob attached, to get started. I will make more formal pins at some point too. The issue for me currently is making things round without a lathe. Although I guess something that small could be done on a drill press, hand drill...

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks Stan and Steven. I will work from those ideas. I am thinking two stringline/chalkboxes (less the chalk), one with the tab/hook on the end and a second, like James shows above, with a plumb bob attached, to get started. I will make more formal pins at some point too. The issue for me currently is making things round without a lathe. Although I guess something that small could be done on a drill press, hand drill...

Handcarve it octagonal. Down with the machines!

[James Pallas]

They used to make small wood blocks for masons to tie the line and act as a standoff for the line. Very handy things. I'm would guess they are plastic now. I think I have some somewhere. If I find them later I will post.
Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been working on "carving" octagonal chair/table/stool legs Stan, so I can do that. "Tajima" makes what looks like a decent Chalk Line and a Plumb Bob line too. The plastic box store ones I have used tend to break easily. The Tajima offerings are at least aluminum, with sturdy looking gears that may last.

Great Jim, although those should be easy to make to acceptable accuracy.

[Jim Koepke]

Great thread, thanks for starting it Stanley and thank to others for their additions.

Jim's shot of the chalk line with a plumb bob makes me think another old chalk line will find its way home with me soon.

jtk

[James Pallas]

For those of you who like the chalk box idea. Look for an old Stanley like the one pictured. It was made to be used as a plumb bob, hence the shape. It is also a little heavier than a Straight Line box. It is good sometimes to have a bob on both ends to kee the string tight.
Jim

[James Pallas]

I like Stanley's pins a lot. I will definitely make some to add to my kit. This is another great thread.
Jim

[steven c newman]

368620
Can't have mine...LOL

[Patrick Chase]

Make a loop around a finger...spin the loop about 10 turns...slip the loop over the pin/nail/stake. Pull as tightly as you can. wrap the rest of the line around the loop in a figure 8 fashion. Line will stay tight, yet release when needed...takes about 30 seconds to tie.

Ah, the magic of wrap angle.

The mechanical advantage of a capstan (ratio of load to required holding force) is exponential in the wrap angle. That's why winches work so well. 10 turns is probably massive overkill though.

[Phil Mueller]

Great post, Stanley, thank you. I was first shown this method back in my high school summers (decades ago) working for a home builder. It was how all the foundation forms were set. Even learned the twist around your finger/loop over the end nail knot. Have used it for fences, decks and the like.

A few other old methods learned back then was the 3/4/5 right angle measurment, and the clear hose with water to check level over wide expanses.

I learned a lot from those "old timers"

[Frederick Skelly]

I've been thinking about this post on and off all day. Stan, it sounds like you can measure to some small tolerances (you mentioned using feeler gauges). Just how small a swamp or belly can a "regular" user like me expect to detect? Is it realistic for me, a guy who's just reading how to do this without a teacher, to assume I can measure 0.02" or better? I ask this because the (very taut) line still has some flex. And the blocks could be very slightly unmatched, due to error in planing or wood movement.

It just seems too good to be true, and skilled Pros always make it look easy.

I'm also interested in trying the plumb bob. Always wondered why I see them in catalogs still, but Jim Pallas' post cleared that up for me. (Thanks Jim!)

As always, thanks for teaching us!
Fred

[James Waldron]

All the straight line work I've done lately - say about 7-8 years, I've used braided UHMW polyethylene (Spectra tm) fishing line. It's very strong (100 lb test), very VERY low stretch and very smooth. The only problem is that it's so smooth and so slick that it doesn't hold knots well. I keep mine on a small open face fishing reel on a stub of a rod that makes keeping the line working and untangled a breeze.

The Spectra can be tensioned to the limits your pins can hold, so you can keep sag to a minimum. I made my own pins with 1/8" drill rod, hardened and tempered, epoxied into turned handles. In my work, I'm usually using the string line on "framing" that is not part of the end result, so I can drive the pins in to a depth of and inch or so to hold a lot of tension.

Works for me.

[James Pallas]

I think I may have derailed this thread some by adding a plumb bob. The use of the dry string is the important part. There are many accessories that can be used with a dry string. The string is a very good and sensitive device for use in measuring and gauging. The plumb bob is one of the accessories along with dividers, feeler gauges, gauge blocks and line levels to name a few. Maybe those things can be used in further discussions.
Jim

[Stanley Covington]

I've been thinking about this post on and off all day. Stan, it sounds like you can measure to some small tolerances (you mentioned using feeler gauges). Just how small a swamp or belly can a "regular" user like me expect to detect? Is it realistic for me, a guy who's just reading how to do this without a teacher, to assume I can measure 0.02" or better? I ask this because the (very taut) line still has some flex. And the blocks could be very slightly unmatched, due to error in planing or wood movement.

It just seems too good to be true, and skilled Pros always make it look easy.

I'm also interested in trying the plumb bob. Always wondered why I see them in catalogs still, but Jim Pallas' post cleared that up for me. (Thanks Jim!)

As always, thanks for teaching us!
Fred

The precision you can detect will depend on several factors. The blocks need to be pretty accurate. A hand plane can take pretty fine shavings and work to tighter tolerances than an electric thickness planer. Vernier calipers can easily measure to .001". Your eye can easily see .001" under the right conditions, such as a backlit gap.

The line needs to be thin and taut. Twisted lines will have bumps, as Patrick correctly pointed out, but they average out. The rougher the line, and the surface being tested, the wider the traveling block should be to average out bumps and errors.

The rougher the surface being tested, the greater the error. A masonry wall is difficult to check for less than 1/16". But a mirror-finish stainless steel doorframe can easily be checked to less than .001".

When trying to measure to high precision, you need to develop a sense in hand and eye of whether the string is touching the traveling block or not. With practice, you can feel the block when it is touching the stringline, and see the stringline deflecting.

It helps to position your eye so your line of sight is in line with the offset block's face. With walls and ceilings, this can be a problem, so I increase the size of the blocks.

I mentioned a flashlight in my first post. This is a very useful tool especially for old eyes like mine. Even young eyes are helped a lot by the more uniform light a powerful flashlight can provide at any time of the day, in sunshine or shadow. Small and powerful is best, though especially in sunlight. The one I use is 700 lumens and small. I position my eye on one side of the stringline, and the light opposite shining at the block and towards my eye. I hood the end of the flashlight by cupping it in my hand to control where the light goes. High-power flashlights get hot, so some of my staff tape cardboard over the end to make the light "squint."

The gap (or lack thereof) between stringline and block is easily seen. Once you detect a gap, you can be measure it with feeler gauges if necessary. The only practical reason for feeler gauges though is to detect/record compliance with established tolerances and communicate the delta to others.

In industrial situations, where they use the electrically charged wires as I mentioned in my first post, they use precision steel offset blocks. The center block or "traveler" used is intentionally thinner than the end blocks. Combined with feeler gauges, swamps, bellies, and wind can be measured quite accurately by experienced people with steady hands. I have seen some truly amazing work done using these techniques by the wizards in stainless steel at Kikukawa Kogoyo, the top stainless steel architectural fabricator in the world, in my extensive experience. I wish I could show you pictures of the beautiful multi-axis curved stainless steel work they have done on some of my projects, but I would have packs of slavering lawyers from Cupertino jumping for my throat if I did.

http://www.kikukawa.com/en/

Hope this helps.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

All the straight line work I've done lately - say about 7-8 years, I've used braided UHMW polyethylene (Spectra tm) fishing line. It's very strong (100 lb test), very VERY low stretch and very smooth. The only problem is that it's so smooth and so slick that it doesn't hold knots well. I keep mine on a small open face fishing reel on a stub of a rod that makes keeping the line working and untangled a breeze.

The Spectra can be tensioned to the limits your pins can hold, so you can keep sag to a minimum. I made my own pins with 1/8" drill rod, hardened and tempered, epoxied into turned handles. In my work, I'm usually using the string line on "framing" that is not part of the end result, so I can drive the pins in to a depth of and inch or so to hold a lot of tension.

Works for me.

Thanks James. Sounds perfect. I will go and buy some right away.

Please share some of the old-timey boat-building techniques with us.

Stan

[Bob Leistner]

Would it be possible to purchase a, say a new "Dewalt" chalk line and replace the string with the Spectra line to build a higher quality system?

[Phillip Mitchell]

What a great post, Stan! I use string lines as described in your post all the time at work as a carpenter. I just installed an entry door last week exactly as you described with the X string line method.

I like to use a Tajima extra fine chalk box with no chalk on it as a dry line. Nice, quality line and much easier and quicker to wind up and keep in order than a loose dry line.

Thanks you so much for these Ancient Tools posts. I'm looking forward to the plumb bob post.

[Stanley Covington]

I think I may have derailed this thread some by adding a plumb bob. The use of the dry string is the important part. There are many accessories that can be used with a dry string. The string is a very good and sensitive device for use in measuring and gauging. The plumb bob is one of the accessories along with dividers, feeler gauges, gauge blocks and line levels to name a few. Maybe those things can be used in further discussions.
Jim

No problemo, Jim.

I had intended to make a new post on Plumblines in a couple of weeks. We can wait until then, but I would not be offended if you started a separate one now. I have 2 or 3 ancient tricks that most people on SC will never have heard of.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

What a great post, Stan! I use string lines as described in your post all the time at work as a carpenter. I just installed an entry door last week exactly as you described with the X string line method.

I like to use a Tajima extra fine chalk box with no chalk on it as a dry line. Nice, quality line and much easier and quicker to wind up and keep in order than a loose dry line.

Thanks you so much for these Ancient Tools posts. I'm looking forward to the plumb bob post.

Oh oh. More stuff I gotta buy! :eek:

[Stanley Covington]

I should have thought ahead and posted some pics of stringline reels. Not really reels, but I don't know a better word. They are called "itomaki" or "thread winders" in Japanese.

These are easily made, but I have several wooden units in several different sizes like the one in the attached picture with yellow stringline. They all spin on a long nail.

Very quick to use.

An interesting detail about the Japanese version of this ancient tool is the two hardened steel sharpened pins sticking out the ends of the two arms. These will poke holes in your hide, but they also allow you to stick the entire reel to a board to secure the stringline without rotating. See the examples in the cartoon promotion for the plastic version attached.

I like the chalkbox idea and will give it a try. The Spectra fishline Jim mentioned is genius.

Stan

368641368642368643

[Stew Denton]

Stan,

Great post, and the comments by those, such as Stephen and other, who have also had considerable experience is much appreciated.

Back in the day I carpentered we used chalk lines a lot. I still use a chalk line part of the time to mark lumber for cutting and other purposes. Like some of the others I have also used string lines to check straightness. I also have and have used plumb lines, they can sometimes be used when nothing else will do or even can work. The old Stanley, and other brands, of chalk boxes can also be used as a plumb line, as you know, and in fact they were designed to do exactly that.

The discussion as to how to lay out a door jambs and dead flat surface was much appreciated, very well and clearly written, and I learned something and it was extremely interesting.

However, often times when installing a door jamb and door, though, for me it has been almost entirely in an existing house in existing walls in a remodeling effort, and as such getting the door to trim out nicely with the existing wall was as or more important than getting it dead flat. It had to function correctly too, though.

Because of that I normally start by mounting the hinges on the hinge side of the jamb,and then mark the hinge locations on the door itself by placing the door against the jamb with the correct gap at the header location and then use a utility knife to mark the hinge locations on the door. I then mount the hinges on the door and test them on the jamb.

Next I begin by leveling out the header of the jamb with my really good old Sands level that I bought new in the early 70s and have taken really good care of now for about 45 years. The 6' level is then used to get the hinge side of the jamb dead plumb and straight using shims and big finish nails. (I spent a significant amount of time, years ago, to determine which of the spirit level vials glasses were dead true on my level. Not all of them are.) You also have to check the door to make sure it is flat, straight, and square. I then mount the door on the hinge side of the jamb and true up all of the remaining edges with shims and finish nails to get all the gaps looking right. Lastly the stops go in.

However, I have to run the jamb true with the wall as much as is possible so the door casing can trim out the jamb and look good. Sometimes a plane is a necessary part of this. It is a game of compromise and truing so the door will look good and work correctly.

Stew

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,

Great post, and the comments by those, such as Stephen, who have also had considerable experience is much appreciated.

Back in the day I carpentered we used chalk lines a lot. I still use a chalk line part of the time to mark lumber for cutting and other purposes. Like some of the others I have also used string lines to check straightness. I also have and have used plumb lines, they can sometimes be used when nothing else will do or even can work. The old Stanley, and other brands, of chalk boxes can also be used as a plumb line, as you know, and in fact they were designed to do exactly that.

The discussion as to how to lay out a door jambs and dead flat surface was much appreciated, very well and clearly written, and extremely interesting. However, often times when installing a door jamb and door, though, for me it has been almost entirely in an existing house in existing walls in a remodeling effort, and as such getting the door to trim out nicely with the existing wall was as or more important than getting it dead flat.

Because of that I normally start by mounting the hinges on the hinge side of the jamb,and then mark the hinge locations on the door itself by placing the door against the jamb with the correct gap at the header location and then use a utility knife to mark the hinge locations against the hinges that are mounted on the jamb. I then mount the hinges on the door and test them on the jamb.

Next I begin by leveling out the header of the jamb with my really good old Sands level that I bought new in the early 70s and have taken really good care of now for nearly 50 years. I then use a 6' level to get the hinge side of the jamb dead plumb and straight using shims and big finish nails. (I spent a significant amount of time, years ago, to determine which of the spirit level vials glasses were dead true on my level. Not all of them are.) You also have to check the door to make sure it is flat, straight, and square. I then mount the door on the hinge side of the jamb and true up all of the remaining edges with shims and finish nails to get all the gaps looking right. Lastly the stops go in.

However, I have to run the jamb true with the wall as much as is possible so the door casing can trim out the jamb and look good. It is a game of compromise and truing so the door will look good and work correctly.

Stew

Very good points, Stew. My post was focused on new construction, and from the viewpoint of someone in the position, and with the authority and power of the purse, to have the work redone if it is incorrect. That is seldom the position of a carpenter doing remodeling where existing walls are retained.

Thanks.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Stan!

[Stew Denton]

Stan,

I agree completely with you, and also assumed you were talking new construction. I want you to realize that I was not disagreeing with you, I learned from your post, and appreciated it. I just wanted to mention that you can't always do the flattening when doing remodeling work, which is almost entirely, but not quite, about all I did.

Great post Stan, and also the other knowledgeable contributors as well.

Thank you!

Stew

[Stanley Covington]

Ah, the magic of wrap angle.

The mechanical advantage of a capstan (ratio of load to required holding force) is exponential in the wrap angle. That's why winches work so well. 10 turns is probably massive overkill though.

I think you misunderstand, Patrick. The loop in the stringline is wound before it is hooked over the nail. No mechanical advantage, just a simple friction knot that is very quick to make, adjust, and undo.

[Patrick Chase]

I think you misunderstand, Patrick. The loop in the stringline is wound before it is hooked over the nail. No mechanical advantage, just a simple friction knot that is very quick to make, adjust, and undo.

Perhaps so, but it seems to me that the line is acting as its own capstan in this instance, with the same underlying physical principal holding things in place.

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2014/12/17/an-easy-knot-for-stringlines-that-unties-with-a-tug

[Stanley Covington]

Perhaps so, but it seems to me that the line is acting as its own capstan in this instance, with the same underlying physical principal holding things in place.

Give a try, Patrick, and you will see how it works. When you twist the loop, the end of the line is pointed back towards the first pin or nail. After twisting and then hooking the line over the nail, pull the line's end hard towards and behind the nail, and let it go slack. You will notice how the twisted line bunches up and locks the knot in place. No extra tension is created in the line.

To release the knot, simply pull the line back from behind the nail, and tug it in the direction of the first pin or nail.

Its a pretty slick knot, and I have no doubt, very ancient.

[Stewie Simpson]

Some good info on how to straighten timber stud wall. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esP1nhviKok

[James Waldron]

[snip]

Please share some of the old-timey boat-building techniques with us.

Stan

A very good source of boat building techniques and tips (mostly traditional) is better than I could do:

https://www.youtube.com/user/TipsfromaShipWright

Comes with an impressive "Yankee" accent and intonation. Very watchable. Covers more than woodworking.

Have a bit of fun; he's currently in the early stage of designing and building a "Peapod" design that looks like fun.

Edit: Lou is pretty dismissive of safety requirements, and has enough experience to "get away with it" - so far. You may wish to take a bit of care with some of his technique. Every once in a while, he'll do something that I find horrifying.

[Stanley Covington]

A very good source of boat building techniques and tips (mostly traditional) is better than I could do: https://www.youtube.com/user/TipsfromaShipWrightComes with an impressive "Yankee" accent and intonation. Very watchable. Covers more than woodworking. Have a bit of fun; he's currently in the early stage of designing and building a "Peapod" design that looks like fun.Edit: Lou is pretty dismissive of safety requirements, and has enough experience to "get away with it" - so far. You may wish to take a bit of care with some of his technique. Every once in a while, he'll do something that I find horrifying.James:Wonderful stuff! Thanks a lot. Quite a character with his suicide shifter and scary bandsaw technique. Fun and worth watching. What do you think of the quality and likely performance of the end product?Stan

[Mark Stutz]

Thanks Stan. I dusted off my dividers after reading your previous thread. The late time I even thought of this technique was when I was working as a construction laborer many years ago. I saw the carpenters using the technique that Steven described to put up concrete wall forms. Hadn't even considered it applicable to anything but construction.

Now I just have to remember to apply these new tools when I am working.

[James Pallas]

When you are trying to fair a curve by hand you can get some positive info by running a string on the curve and being able to quickly assess the highs and lows. Important here is that it doesn't mater how large the area is, for the most part. 3" or 3'.
Jim

[James Pallas]

These are just things I have done in the past. A quick way to make a half pattern for an ellipse. Mark an x y axis on you pattern decide how wide you want your half pattern. Mark half of that on your pattern. Decide how long you want your pattern, mark that on the other axis. Put the piece verticle in your vise. Hold your string at the two longer marks. Let it hang down to touch the width mark. Now carefully mark along the string and you have it.
Jim

[James Waldron]

James:Wonderful stuff! Thanks a lot. Quite a character with his suicide shifter and scary bandsaw technique. Fun and worth watching. What do you think of the quality and likely performance of the end product?Stan

Stan:

Lou's quality is quite good in everything I've seen. His designs are rather dated, but will perform, I expect, at least to the traditional levels. These are not "high performance" boats or racing boats for the most part, so performance is relative to a mission. For the uses they are intended to serve, they are pretty nice looking designs.

He also takes on a lot of very challenging restoration projects on antique boats. A lot of creative woodworking goes on in those projects.

[James Waldron]

When you are trying to fair a curve by hand you can get some positive info by running a string on the curve and being able to quickly assess the highs and lows. Important here is that it doesn't mater how large the area is, for the most part. 3" or 3'.
Jim

One can do a far better job of fairing a curve with a batten. I have about a dozen in different stiffnesses and differing lengths for the purpose. Yes, storage is a hassle, but when you really need a fair curve (whether in two or three dimensions), it's good to have them. Most of mine are made of 3 to 4 plies of laminated Western Red Cedar, with each ply at about 1/8" - 1/4" and using epoxy laminating adhesive. They range from 8 feet to 20 feet in my shop. (If I had a need for shorter battens, I'd probably use fewer, thinner plies.)

[steven c newman]

One other item I learned the hard way....those little "Line Levels"? Do NOT use them..as soon as you install one on a stringline, it will sag right there.

[James Waldron]

These are just things I have done in the past. A quick way to make a half pattern for an ellipse. Mark an x y axis on you pattern decide how wide you want your half pattern. Mark half of that on your pattern. Decide how long you want your pattern, mark that on the other axis. Put the piece verticle in your vise. Hold your string at the two longer marks. Let it hang down to touch the width mark. Now carefully mark along the string and you have it.
Jim

I think you'll find that the curve defined by the hanging string is a "catenary" and not an ellipse segment. It is actually closer to (and indirectly related to) a parabola. You might find good information on the catenary curve on Wikipedia or, if more rigor is wanted, at Mathematica.

If you really want an ellipse, Tolpin and Walker have a good construction technique with divider and straight edge in one of their books. I'm not sure which one, but Google should tell you more. I've used it for some time from memory; I learned it from my father.

There's also a string technique, but it's complicated by requiring one to find the two foci of the ellipse. That can be an elusive requirement if specific dimensions are wanted. Once the foci are determined, pins are placed at each of the foci and a string is looped around both with enough slack to reach to the intended width on one side or the intended length at one end. Then a pencil is inserted inside the loop and tensioned against the pins and translated around creating the ellipse.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan:

Lou's quality is quite good in everything I've seen. His designs are rather dated, but will perform, I expect, at least to the traditional levels. These are not "high performance" boats or racing boats for the most part, so performance is relative to a mission. For the uses they are intended to serve, they are pretty nice looking designs.

He also takes on a lot of very challenging restoration projects on antique boats. A lot of creative woodworking goes on in those projects.

Do you know Lou well?

Boat design and building has always fascinated me. My wife grew up with a 24ft glass "yacht", and loves ships, and I grew up with ski boats and diving, so for a long time we wanted to build our own sailboat and travel the world. When I looked more closely at the cost and long-term burden of owning a wooden clothesline, not to mention the instability of such a lifestyle, we changed our minds, but the romance of sailing ships has not left my heart.

I have deep respect for men that can build those beautiful and functional sculptures. Lou's may not go that far, but they look like a lot of fun. He gets his hands on some beautiful wood.

[James Pallas]

I
There's also a string technique, but it's complicated by requiring one to find the two foci of the ellipse. That can be an elusive requirement if specific dimensions are wanted. Once the foci are determined, pins are placed at each of the foci and a string is looped around both with enough slack to reach to the intended width on one side or the intended length at one end. Then a pencil is inserted inside the loop and tensioned against the pins and translated around creating the ellipse.

i guess to me it's about simple shop work. There are many ways to make curved shapes that look okay but are not mathematically correct. I used the framing square method also that comes out closer to an ellipse. The string and pin method also. The easiest and most accurate is to CNC it and be done. I've used battens for curves also it works just fine. I guess I thought we were talking a simple string here.
Jim

[James Waldron]

Do you know Lou well?

Boat design and building has always fascinated me. My wife grew up with a 24ft glass "yacht", and loves ships, and I grew up with ski boats and diving, so for a long time we wanted to build our own sailboat and travel the world. When I looked more closely at the cost and long-term burden of owning a wooden clothesline, not to mention the instability of such a lifestyle, we changed our minds, but the romance of sailing ships has not left my heart.

I have deep respect for men that can build those beautiful and functional sculptures. Lou's may not go that far, but they look like a lot of fun. He gets his hands on some beautiful wood.

I don't know Lou personally. I've enjoyed his videos and learned a couple of good tricks from them. I don't work much in antiques or build wooden hulls, so our efforts are not entirely congruent. Actually, I don't build much of anything since I've retired, except a glass or plywood dinghy now and then.

[James Waldron]

i guess to me it's about simple shop work. There are many ways to make curved shapes that look okay but are not mathematically correct. I used the framing square method also that comes out closer to an ellipse. The string and pin method also. The easiest and most accurate is to CNC it and be done. I've used battens for curves also it works just fine. I guess I thought we were talking a simple string here.
Jim



Don't mean to be throwing rocks, Jim. Just a clarification. Sorry if it came across as a slam, sure didn't mean it that way.

The ellipse and the catenary (and other regular curves) have different uses and both are found in every art and craft, including ours. String lines can do a lot, but they do have their limitations (particularly on concave curves).

Next time you want to fair a short curve, up to say 18", try using a flexible steel rule as a batten and compare to your string technique. You may like the rule/batten, you may not.

Of course, with either technique, the radius of the curvature may make both a batten or string ineffective on a concave curve and the string may be useful on tight convex curves where the steel rule can't go.

Ultimately, a fair curve is often determined by the human eye if it is not a regular curve (ellipse, catenary, parabola, etc.). In boat building, regular curves are not often used and the batten is pinned in place to roughly define the curve, and then adjusted to suit the creator's eye. That is the technique for naval architects as well as loftsmen and shipwrights and boatwrights. That is the technique used even when the batten is an algorithm defined in software for digital computer design. The eye is far more refined and discriminating that any string or batten or algorithm.

In your shop, you choose. I would suggest, though, that you consider working toward developing your eye as the judge and select the tool that gets you closest to what pleases your eye with the least difficulty. In many cases of curves, the batten comes closer than the string line but it is still only a starting point. Even in "simple shop work" to use your expression, I've found it rewarding to expand my capabilities and to strive toward mastery of more and better techniques.

[Pat Barry]

In boat building, regular curves are not often used and the batten is pinned in place to roughly define the curve, and then adjusted to suit the creator's eye. That is the technique for naval architects as well as loftsmen and shipwrights and boatwrights... The eye is far more refined and discriminating that any string or batten or algorithm. .
Interesting thought, however, for a boat I suspect, what you didn't say, is that there is a preferred geometry based on some measure of performance and that's what the shipwright is aiming for - a curve of certain form and that form may or may not be a simple mathematical entity and through his experience - fairing the curve means it fits the mental image of what he feels performs the best..

[Mel Fulks]

Well, some of the curves that are highly successful in manufactured stock millwork and suffice for some doing custom work are ugly mistakes for others. The worst are the "two radius ellipses" drawn with the trammel points that should have been used to draw a REAL ellipse.....in those cases a piece of string could have done a better job.

[James Waldron]

Interesting thought, however, for a boat I suspect, what you didn't say, is that there is a preferred geometry based on some measure of performance and that's what the shipwright is aiming for - a curve of certain form and that form may or may not be a simple mathematical entity and through his experience - fairing the curve means it fits the mental image of what he feels performs the best..

Pat:

That takes us far off Stan's original course. That's probably okay, since "He's a sailor and used to hard ships." (from a very old shaggy dog tale)

The reality is that the shipwright strives to build the shape defined by the design process. He will work to fair the curves, but the overall shape of the curve is defined by the naval architect (or home diy designer in some cases).

That overall shape is determined by a large number of parameters, including hydrostatics, hydrodynamics, required load carrying capacity, stability, performance requirements, budget, and on and on. And of course, for pleasure craft, if the thing looks like a piece of crap it's going to be really hard to get SWMBO to allow the purchase.

At every stage in the process, every curve is evaluated and adjusted to be fair. That starts on the drawing board (or in the computer, more and more often), then on the lofting floor Lofting is the process of scaling the design to full scale, a process many of us use for our furniture builds, etc. For a boat it's a bigger and rather more complex requirement, and lot of techniques not common to furniture building. Then on to the shipwright for construction.

At the scale of a drawing board, fairing is limited by scaling factors. It's just not possible to adjust a drafting batten by 0.001" and yet that 0.001" at a scale that may be 1/4" / foot, converts to 48 times as much, i.e., 0.048". Occasionally, the drafting batten may be off by as much as 1/8" and when expanded on the lofting floor, that expands to 6". Most unfairness falls between these two extremes. The role of the loftsman is to correct these to provide a fair curve for the shipwright. (An ancillary role is to detect and correct any substantive design errors which may occasionally creep in. Lofting is a very important skilled trade.)

The job of the shipwright is to then take his measurements (with a story pole, not a tape measure) from the lofted drawing and build the framework for the construction of the defined hull shape. There are quite a few ways that is done that I won't bore everyone with. The important thing to note is that working a full scale to the lofted design and a story pole, errors are apt to creep into the process. (Cutting changing bevels on the edge of a plank with a band saw is a bit of an art, but an imprecise one, to cite just one illustrative example.) So the battens are used to correct the lines in three dimensions and to eliminate errors in the construction techniques employed. Fine judgement is required when a curve is unfair: do we cut down the high spots or do we shim up the low spots? (And when we do the same curve on the other side of the hull, will we remember the original choice or do it the other way this time? Hence the result that boats are often not quite symmetrical and perform better on one tack than on the other.

Designing, lofting and building boats are quite rewarding trades. Doing them well requires the accumulation of a considerable knowledge base and a diverse skill set. In the last analysis, like any other trade or craft, there are very good practitioners, some not so good and many somewhere along the path to very good. Much like the denizens of this forum.

[allen long]

Thank you Stewie for the video link. I was having trouble imagining the knot trick just from the text.

Great thread everyone. Greatly appreciate all the useful information.

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

[allen long]

These are just things I have done in the past. A quick way to make a half pattern for an ellipse. Mark an x y axis on you pattern decide how wide you want your half pattern. Mark half of that on your pattern. Decide how long you want your pattern, mark that on the other axis. Put the piece verticle in your vise. Hold your string at the two longer marks. Let it hang down to touch the width mark. Now carefully mark along the string and you have it.
Jim


James, can you post pictures for those of us who have difficulty envisioning what you are describing? (and by "us" I mean "me")

Many Kind Regards . . . . Allen

[Damien Braun]

There's also a string technique, but it's complicated by requiring one to find the two foci of the ellipse.
Finding foci is not that hard knowing that (major axis)² = (minor axis)² + (foci)²; a² = b² + c² on the drawing
The string part is more unusual

368703

[steven c newman]

I used to drive to pins. Then made a loop in the string, pencil into a loop. Stretch the string, with the pencil, out to the edge of the board. Then trace the pattern by hold the pencil and allowing the loop to work around the two pins. Have to keep the pencil vertical the entire way around.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Finding foci is not that hard knowing that (major axis)² = (minor axis)² + (foci)²; a² = b² + c² on the drawing


Putting this another way, if you know the length (long axis) and the width (short axis) of an ellipse you want to draw, you can easily determine the distance between the foci (nails) to draw it with a string and nails.

1 Draw two perpendicular lines, and mark a first point on one line the short axis of the ellipse from where they cross.
2 Set a pair of dividers to the desired long axis of the ellipse.
3 Use the dividers set on the first point to mark a second point on the other line.
4 The distance between the where the two lines cross and the second point you marked is the distance between the foci (the two nails you wrap the string around).

This construction does exactly the same thing as the algebra above.

[David Bassett]

Putting this another way, ....

Very well described.

On the Woodwright Shop, broadcast this weekend locally, Roy Underhill had a couple guys doing an inlay project where they laid out ellipses. One they did with a layout tool, (made by George Wilson when he was at Williamsburg,) and the other they did as you describe. I don't layout enough ellipses, nor have the skill, to make a custom tool, but the string method really seemed easy to use if you can remember the details, I didn't. Thanks!

[James Pallas]

James, can e nerve damageyou post pictures for those of us who have difficulty envisioning what you are describing? (and by "us" I mean "me")

Many Kind Regards . . . . Allen

Here it is really quickly Allen.
i just used a string to measure and a square to put a width line in. The pictures should explain. Don't pay much attention to the pencil lines as I have nerve damage that keeps me from free handing a pencil. I put the template against an elliptical frame for reference. Start from the last picture first. This is not as good as can be just a how to.
Jim

[Jay Aubuchon]

They used to make small wood blocks for masons to tie the line and act as a standoff for the line.

Like these line blocks (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Marshalltown-2-Pack-1-in-x-3-75-in-Line-Blocks/1000070695?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-HardSurfaceTools-_-1000070695:Marshalltown&CAWELAID=&kpid=1000070695&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=2355&k_clickID=6d0c1d55-0c8c-4a21-a683-0b51a5cfbfcb&gclid=CjwKCAjwu7LOBRBZEiwAQtfbGKzH18yMTVaouGAW4Cso DUZLkRZfohuJq_-101IuxN5xlaPykFfHrBoC4lwQAvD_BwE)?

[Rush Paul]

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2014/12/17/an-easy-knot-for-stringlines-that-unties-with-a-tug
A second thank you for the video link - it was very helpful to view.

Stan, this has been an excellent thread - thanks for sharing this information!

[john zulu]

I use this method with ink to remove the bow in the board itself. Remove most of the waste with the bandsaw then flatten it with a hand plane.

[James Pallas]

Like these line blocks (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Marshalltown-2-Pack-1-in-x-3-75-in-Line-Blocks/1000070695?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-HardSurfaceTools-_-1000070695:Marshalltown&CAWELAID=&kpid=1000070695&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=2355&k_clickID=6d0c1d55-0c8c-4a21-a683-0b51a5cfbfcb&gclid=CjwKCAjwu7LOBRBZEiwAQtfbGKzH18yMTVaouGAW4Cso DUZLkRZfohuJq_-101IuxN5xlaPykFfHrBoC4lwQAvD_BwE)?

Exactly them Jay. They can be handy when working with long pieces.
Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

Here are the Tajima's I ordered on Amazon, next to a classic LV HB pencil as a size reference:

368739

At under $3.00, in the link Jay provides, I may just buy the spacer blocks from Lowe's as well. The Plumb-Rite, plumb bob, is heavy and they offer quite a selection of other sizes as well. The Plumb-Rite string holder has a magnet, a place to hook it on a nail..., and a super heavy duty very sharp pin. The "handle" on the top is for driving the pin in and removing it. The little dial, yellow dashes, sets the tensioning device for different Plumb Bob weights. The Chalk-Rite, stringline, came with a 1mm braided line, other sizes are available.

[James Pallas]

Here are the Tajima's I ordered on Amazon, next to a classic LV HB pencil as a size reference:

368739

At under $3.00, in the link Jay provides, I may just buy the spacer blocks from Lowe's as well. The Plumb-Rite, plumb bob, is heavy and they offer quite a selection of other sizes as well. The Plumb-Rite string holder has a magnet, a place to hook it on a nail..., and a super heavy duty very sharp pin. The "handle" on the top is for driving the pin in and removing it. The little dial, yellow dashes, sets the tensioning device for different Plumb Bob weights. The Chalk-Rite, stringline, came with a 1mm braided line, other sizes are available.
It looks like it may be a very handy set. I would be very tempted and still may be. I have so much of that stuff around it a little difficult to justify.
Jim

[Frederick Skelly]

Would it be possible to purchase a, say a new "Dewalt" chalk line and replace the string with the Spectra line to build a higher quality system?

Seems like it would be worth a try Bob.
Fred

[Mike Holbrook]

All I had was an old broken chalk box and I like working with rough lumber and logs. I have boards for a bench that got wet and need to be reprocessed and I have semi "green" red oak from a tree on our property so I should get to use them soon.

[Stanley Covington]

James Waldron kindly directed us to a series of videos by a shipwright named Louis Sauzedde. I have been voraciously eating these videos.

One video shows a technique for marking the waterline on a boat's hull (a curved surface) using battens, essentially winding sticks in this case, and a stringline. This technique is fascinating because it uses a straight line to mark a plane on a curved surface. This job is done in the construction industry using transits, and nowadays laser levels, but now I know how they did it before optical tools were available. I think you will be impressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoi2E05zDU&list=PLzlN3A2DLgNz7vh_8Hur0N7ICHnt0Rt1n

Just for the record in case the video goes down, the job is accomplished by placing the boat in shallow dead-calm water with one man sitting inside as if he is rowing. Another man marks the hull at the waterline at a few key locations with a pencil.

They take the boat back to the shop, set it on horses, and clamp a batten (a long board that is called a "batter board" in the construction industry) across the transom (tail end). Another batten is place at the boat's bow supported on horses, at the same elevation as the pencil mark on the cutwater, and parallel to and co-planar with the batten at the transom, like winding sticks. Two men take each end of a stringline, and stretch it over the top of the 2 battens, with the stringline just touching the hull. They then shift the stringline's position on each batten walking the stringline's point of contact around the hull, while a third man marks the stringline's contact points. Connect these marks and they have the intersection of a plane on the curved hull's exterior surface. Very clever!

Thanks James!

[James Pallas]

James Waldron kindly directed us to a series of videos by a shipwright named Louis Sauzedde. I have been voraciously eating these videos.

One video shows a technique for marking the waterline on a boat's hull (a curved surface) using battens, essentially winding sticks in this case, and a stringline. This technique is fascinating because it uses a straight line to mark a plane on a curved surface. This job is done in the construction industry using transits, and nowadays laser levels, but now I know how they did it before optical tools were available. I think you will be impressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoi2E05zDU&list=PLzlN3A2DLgNz7vh_8Hur0N7ICHnt0Rt1n

Just for the record in case the video goes down, the job is accomplished by placing the boat in shallow dead-calm water with one man sitting inside as if he is rowing. Another man marks the hull at the waterline at a few key locations with a pencil.

They take the boat back to the shop, set it on horses, and clamp a batten (a long board that is called a "batter board" in the construction industry) across the transom (tail end). Another batten is place at the boat's bow supported on horses, at the same elevation as the pencil mark on the cutwater, and parallel to and co-planar with the batten at the transom, like winding sticks. Two men take each end of a stringline, and stretch it over the top of the 2 battens, with the stringline just touching the hull. They then shift the stringline's position on each batten walking the stringline's point of contact around the hull, while a third man marks the stringline's contact points. Connect these marks and they have the intersection of a plane on the curved hull's exterior surface. Very clever!

Thanks James!
Louis Sauzedde was also involved in the restoration of the Coronett an 1885 sailing yacht. It's quite a woodworking project. You should check out the Coronett 1885 site. A bottom up restore of a more than 100 ft. Vessel.
Jim

[James Waldron]

James Waldron kindly directed us to a series of videos by a shipwright named Louis Sauzedde. I have been voraciously eating these videos.

One video shows a technique for marking the waterline on a boat's hull (a curved surface) using battens, essentially winding sticks in this case, and a stringline. This technique is fascinating because it uses a straight line to mark a plane on a curved surface. This job is done in the construction industry using transits, and nowadays laser levels, but now I know how they did it before optical tools were available. I think you will be impressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoi2E05zDU&list=PLzlN3A2DLgNz7vh_8Hur0N7ICHnt0Rt1n

Just for the record in case the video goes down, the job is accomplished by placing the boat in shallow dead-calm water with one man sitting inside as if he is rowing. Another man marks the hull at the waterline at a few key locations with a pencil.

They take the boat back to the shop, set it on horses, and clamp a batten (a long board that is called a "batter board" in the construction industry) across the transom (tail end). Another batten is place at the boat's bow supported on horses, at the same elevation as the pencil mark on the cutwater, and parallel to and co-planar with the batten at the transom, like winding sticks. Two men take each end of a stringline, and stretch it over the top of the 2 battens, with the stringline just touching the hull. They then shift the stringline's position on each batten walking the stringline's point of contact around the hull, while a third man marks the stringline's contact points. Connect these marks and they have the intersection of a plane on the curved hull's exterior surface. Very clever!

Thanks James!

The stripe at the waterline is named the "boot top."

To extend the foregoing technique, it is used to define the bottom of the boot top, but not the top boundary. Both because of the changing shape of the hull, a boot top of constant width looks horrible, as in view, the shape will virtually disappear as the stripe goes toward the stern, where the shape often becomes nearly horizontal. Nor is it workable to make the boot top at a constant height above the waterline; it will still look humped in the midships and too narrow at the bow and stern.

To overcome these, first the bottom of the stripe is generally placed a bit above the flotation waterline. A bit is relative to the size of the boat, and may be one inch for a small boat to three or four inches for a large one. One does not want the boot top to be in contact with the water, as the paints used for these stripes has no antifouling properties and marine growth on the boot top is not attractive. Second, the top of the stripe is most often defined by sight by (most often) the boat painter. Lining out the stripe is done with painter's tape directly on the hull, sighted by the painter, adjusted (sometimes over and over again) until a pleasing stripe is found as sighted from the bow and the stern and from amidships.

The quality of execution varies from one boatyard to the next. On such things, reputations are made (good or bad). And then there are boat owners (and spouses) who interfere with the project in one way or another.

[Stanley Covington]

The stripe at the waterline is named the "boot top."

To extend the foregoing technique, it is used to define the bottom of the boot top, but not the top boundary. Both because of the changing shape of the hull, a boot top of constant width looks horrible, as in view, the shape will virtually disappear as the stripe goes toward the stern, where the shape often becomes nearly horizontal. Nor is it workable to make the boot top at a constant height above the waterline; it will still look humped in the midships and too narrow at the bow and stern.

To overcome these, first the bottom of the stripe is generally placed a bit above the flotation waterline. A bit is relative to the size of the boat, and may be one inch for a small boat to three or four inches for a large one. One does not want the boot top to be in contact with the water, as the paints used for these stripes has no antifouling properties and marine growth on the boot top is not attractive. Second, the top of the stripe is most often defined by sight by (most often) the boat painter. Lining out the stripe is done with painter's tape directly on the hull, sighted by the painter, adjusted (sometimes over and over again) until a pleasing stripe is found as sighted from the bow and the stern and from amidships.

The quality of execution varies from one boatyard to the next. On such things, reputations are made (good or bad). And then there are boat owners (and spouses) who interfere with the project in one way or another.

Nature (and the human eye) abhors a straight line?

[Mel Fulks]

It is guessed that the curved (entasis) lines of columns was to make them look straight. And modern perfectly straight sided columns are often perceived as being slightly hollow at mid point.

[James Waldron]

A writer for PopWood, Graham Hayden, did a bit on using a string line to guide making co-planar bearers for a work bench top. https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/string-theory It works like the door installation discussed above, but making everything co-planar in a horizontal plane.

[Mike Holbrook]

Nice tip James. I will be trying those methods out soon.

I bought a second Tajima stringline, both are 100 feet long. The first one was a CR301JF ($16), which comes with a 1mm line. I will use it without chalk. The second one, CR202B ($26) comes with a .5mm string. I will actually put chalk in the second one so I can mark thin, hopefully accurate chalk lines. The CR202B is more compact but a little heavier. It is probably sturdier with an aluminum case. It will be interesting to see the advantages of various strings.

[steven c newman]

Here is another little tip:

Snapping a LONG line. Too often, snapping long lines throws the line out of true, turns it into a curved line. Trick is the raise the entire line, and let it "snap" straight down....doesn't work all that great, unless you do this sort of thing daily. However, by having another go out to about the middle of the line, carefullyplace a finger to hold the line in place, and then snapping the line on each side of the NOW blue finger, line stays straight. OR, if the helper is a third, have the two on the ends snap the lines, will the third holds the middle down.

But, then I was marking wall lines 25-50feet long. This can work on long sheets of plywood. IF you can reach the line at the center of the line, then you can snap half at a time.

[Mike Holbrook]

Another good one Steven, should work on logs, except for the bark. Maybe I use the large drawknife to level a place for the string to "snap" to. If not I might have to go back to your tip on snapping sections to get past curved and rougher surfaces.

[Stanley Covington]

Here is another little tip:

Snapping a LONG line. Too often, snapping long lines throws the line out of true, turns it into a curved line. Trick is the raise the entire line, and let it "snap" straight down....doesn't work all that great, unless you do this sort of thing daily. However, by having another go out to about the middle of the line, carefullyplace a finger to hold the line in place, and then snapping the line on each side of the NOW blue finger, line stays straight. OR, if the helper is a third, have the two on the ends snap the lines, will the third holds the middle down.

But, then I was marking wall lines 25-50feet long. This can work on long sheets of plywood. IF you can reach the line at the center of the line, then you can snap half at a time.


There are times when a curved line is necessary. It is a very advanced technique that I have never had occasion to use (not even sure I could do it successfully without a lot of practice), but I have seen it done by carpenters replacing trim and long, large beams in temple/shrine repairs/reconstruction.

The trick is to twirl the inkline between thumb and forefinger when lifting it, and pull it just the right amount to the side. When released, the combination of twist and offset causes the inkline to leave a perfectly curved line on the wood.

I am aware of three uses for a curved inkline.

First, if the eye can see a long percentage of a horizontal beam's or trim board's or hafu's exposed length, for instance on the building's exterior, and the member is perfectly straight, the human eye will see it as sagging or "dead." By applying an upward curvature, it appears straight and "alive."

The second application is to create a slight curve in roof rafters. This is an appearance factor, once again.

The third application is more structural. Long, unsupported, horizontal beams always deflect downward due deadload, liveload, and creep. Some of the sag occurs immediately, some after the building is occupied, and some takes decades to gradually develop. Often this sag can be hidden behind ceilings so it is not apparent, but not always, especially at\above doors and windows. Other times, a sagging beam, especially over doors and windows, will sag and cause joinery to bind. And it just looks "tired" and worn-out.

I have spoken with top-class carpenters in Japan as they were marveling about the skills of the carpenters who's work they have inspected/repaired in some of the famous wooden structures in Japan, mostly Nara and Kyoto. The gradual increase in deflection over time can be seen in the repairs made over the centuries to fragile plasterwork above and below these beams, indicating that the beams did indeed sag, exactly as the original carpenters expected, but still retained a slight upwards curvature.

Those old boys were looking down the road centuries as they snapped their curved inklines.

Stan

[James Pallas]

How very true about carpenters in the past. I have had the privilege of working with some very good carpenters. When I questioned one about starring at a beam he said, "That beam already knows what it is going to do, I'm just trying to figure out what it is telling me". I never forgot that one.
Jim

[steven c newman]

That is also the reason I checked for "crown" along a plank or beam's length. A King wears his Crown on top of his head, and so too should a beam have it's "crown" on top.

[Stanley Covington]

There are times when a curved line is necessary. It is a very advanced technique that I have never had occasion to use (not even sure I could do it successfully without a lot of practice), but I have seen it done by carpenters replacing trim and long, large beams in temple/shrine repairs/reconstruction.

The trick is to twirl the inkline between thumb and forefinger when lifting it, and pull it just the right amount to the side. When released, the combination of twist and offset causes the inkline to leave a perfectly curved line on the wood.

I am aware of three uses for a curved inkline.

First, if the eye can see a long percentage of a horizontal beam's or trim board's or hafu's exposed length, for instance on the building's exterior, and the member is perfectly straight, the human eye will see it as sagging or "dead." By applying an upward curvature, it appears straight and "alive."

The second application is to create a slight curve in roof rafters. This is an appearance factor, once again.

The third application is more structural. Long, unsupported, horizontal beams always deflect downward due deadload, liveload, and creep. Some of the sag occurs immediately, some after the building is occupied, and some takes decades to gradually develop. Often this sag can be hidden behind ceilings so it is not apparent, but not always, especially at\above doors and windows. Other times, a sagging beam, especially over doors and windows, will sag and cause joinery to bind. And it just looks "tired" and worn-out.

I have spoken with top-class carpenters in Japan as they were marveling about the skills of the carpenters who's work they have inspected/repaired in some of the famous wooden structures in Japan, mostly Nara and Kyoto. The gradual increase in deflection over time can be seen in the repairs made over the centuries to fragile plasterwork above and below these beams, indicating that the beams did indeed sag, exactly as the original carpenters expected, but still retained a slight upwards curvature.

Those old boys were looking down the road centuries as they snapped their curved inklines.

Stan

I took the wife to dinner Monday for our anniversary at a restaurant called Imahan near Ueno station. The interior had this interesting hafu (Facia) that is very Japanese and illustrates clearly the application of a curved snapline. See the attached picture. It should help explain my point.

The top board is straight, but the hafu is curved. This gives the construct a more graceful, lively appearance, I think you will agree.

The line you see congruent with the board's bottom edge is planed at an angle into the edge of the board with a special plane, but it is not a rabbet. This is also a very Japanese architectural detail.
369418

[Frederick Skelly]

Yes, that helped me. Thanks Stan!

[Dennis Droege]

Thank you. I used string lines for years to line up pulleys, but neglected to carry that knowledge into the wood shop--

[Stanley Covington]

Thank you. I used string lines for years to line up pulleys, but neglected to carry that knowledge into the wood shop--

Dennis:

Thanks for the insight. I suppose a stringline would be the perfect tool for that purpose.

I have used a stringline to align the wheels of my motorcycles for a long time. I think most people that do their own motorcycle maintenance know how to do this, but I never thought to check my bicycles until a couple of years ago. I had adjusted the wheels to what I thought was "good enough," but when I put a stringline on the wheels I saw for the first time how far they were out of alignment front and back. Once I had them more precisely aligned, I noticed they rolled better and cornered more surely.

Like your experience with pulleys, the more I pay attention, the more applications I see for the humble stringline. All hail!

Stan

[tim mcbatts]

Most Construction Companies Brisbane (https://www.lionaconstructions.com.au/services/commercial-projects/) are very familiar with this kind of mechanism. It just varies on the complexity but still the same basic setup.

[Tom M King]

After changing all the joints in the front end on my truck (20 years old, 340 some thousand miles). I didn't want to drive it to get it aligned, worrying about it being so far off that somthing might give. I used strings, and a Wixey gauge. The alignment shop only charged me half price, because they didn't need to change anything. It got new tires on the way out of town, that day.

After driving it for some number of thousand miles, I was noticing some wear on the outside edge of the right front tire. I suspected that standard specs didn't account for the crowned country roads around here, so changed the camber a tenth of a degree, by the Wixey, and no tire wear since.

I "pull a line", as we call it around here, all the time.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting:

455994

A winding stick for car tires?

jtk

[Tom M King]

The batter boards were just to hold the lines level with the centers of the axles, and to allow the strings to be slid side to side, to get them into the exactly right position. It didn't matter a bit if they were not parallel. You many not be able to see the strings in the picture on a phone screen. It worked better than I thought it would. Toe-in was Way off, after changing all the ball joints.

[ken hatch]

After changing all the joints in the front end on my truck (20 years old, 340 some thousand miles). I didn't want to drive it to get it aligned, worrying about it being so far off that somthing might give. I used strings, and a Wixey gauge. The alignment shop only charged me half price, because they didn't need to change anything. It got new tires on the way out of town, that day.

After driving it for some number of thousand miles, I was noticing some wear on the outside edge of the right front tire. I suspected that standard specs didn't account for the crowned country roads around here, so changed the camber a tenth of a degree, by the Wixey, and no tire wear since.

I "pull a line", as we call it around here, all the time.

Tom,

LOL, sure your name isn't Bubba from the East Texas Piney Woods? :)

ken

[Tom M King]

I have no idea who that is. After getting prices quoted on any mechanic work, my time, which I'm sure might not be as efficient as a pro, is worth well over a hundred bucks an hour. Not only that, but I know it's done right, don't waste time talking on the phone, or driving around to leave vehicles somewhere. Our place came with a building suitable for doing mechanic work, and it's turned out very handy to have. I can just leave what I'm working on in there, and walk to the house.

I don't like to make vehicle payments, (or payments on anything, for that matter). Our method of making vehicle payments is to make one payment, and then drive it as long as it lasts, or until we can't stand it anymore. I still like this truck, and the last payment was made Nov. 2000. It's still quite serviceable for what it does. Diesels can last a Long time.

Setting those lines was not much different than laying out a building foundation, and I've done that before.

[Thomas Wilson]

I have no idea who that is. After getting prices quoted on any mechanic work, my time, which I'm sure might not be as efficient as a pro, is worth well over a hundred bucks an hour. Not only that, but I know it's done right, don't waste time talking on the phone, or driving around to leave vehicles somewhere. Our place came with a building suitable for doing mechanic work, and it's turned out very handy to have. I can just leave what I'm working on in there, and walk to the house.

I don't like to make vehicle payments, (or payments on anything, for that matter). Our method of making vehicle payments is to make one payment, and then drive it as long as it lasts, or until we can't stand it anymore. I still like this truck, and the last payment was made Nov. 2000. It's still quite serviceable for what it does. Diesels can last a Long time.

Setting those lines was not much different than laying out a building foundation, and I've done that before.
I would say a man for all seasons on Lake Gaston. I tip my Cat hat.