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Wes Mansfield
09-24-2017, 11:20 PM
Hi all, long time lurker but have not really posted before.

Anyhow I live in Maryland and have have an osage orange tree thats about 60-80 feet tall. The main trunk is about 20-25" diameter and extends fairly straight up from the base about 20-25 feet. Think a log like that has any value? I know the stuff is used for fence posts, bows and makes some nice firewood. At this point I would probably be willing to give the tree away, just because the green fruit it drops is a nuisance. Figured I would see what you guys think.

John K Jordan
09-25-2017, 12:25 AM
Anyhow I live in Maryland and have have an osage orange tree thats about 60-80 feet tall. The main trunk is about 20-25" diameter and extends fairly straight up from the base about 20-25 feet. Think a log like that has any value? I know the stuff is used for fence posts, bows and makes some nice firewood. At this point I would probably be willing to give the tree away, just because the green fruit it drops is a nuisance. Figured I would see what you guys think.

Hello Wes!

A lot of logs have value, but the question is how much. The value of wood in the tree is typically pretty low since 1), you really have no idea what the tree is like inside until you cut it, and 2), it is a WHOLE lot of work to fell, limb, clean up, load, haul, saw, sticker, dry, store, and market! (A log like yours might weigh as much as 5000 lbs!) Each operation increases the value so while a stack of milled boards/slabs/tuning blanks might be pretty valuable the tree itself might not. All the osage I have was free for the hauling. (I think I still have 3-4 osage logs waiting for me to saw)

Osasge is good for turning (I turned a tool handle from a piece today) and I love to use it around the farm for garden stakes and such. It won't rot so I use it for a variety of outdoor things.

Yours sounds like a pretty good sized tree and the straight log is a big plus. If you want to try to sell it or get it sawn into boards and such you might call some local sawmills and see if they are interested. You might locate them with woodfinder.com or check the WoodMizer web site. WoodMizer keeps a list of people with WoodMizer sawmills who are willing to saw. Some have portable mills and will come to your property. One might want to buy the log.

JKJ

Jim Becker
09-25-2017, 10:22 AM
It would be worth more to me as an individual woodworker than it would be worth for "commercial" purposes for the reasons that John speaks about. If you're a woodworker, then if the tree is coming down for some reason, by all means look into getting it milled and drying it for use in projects.

Malcolm McLeod
09-25-2017, 10:41 AM
Another factor to consider is the tree in an urban/suburban setting? Or, is it 'in the wild'?

Many sawyers may balk at cutting an urban tree. It can have anything from a clothesline to an engine block inside. And around here, Osage grows in mainly in fence lines - usually with the wire fence grown into the tree (even 'wild' ones).

The sawmill forum might give better answers, but maybe metal detectors have gotten cheap enough that these hidden treasures don't scare them off....?

John K Jordan
09-25-2017, 10:50 AM
...
The sawmill forum might give better answers, but maybe metal detectors have gotten cheap enough that these hidden treasures don't scare them off....?

The detectors are not too expensive but they don't detect too deeply, at least those I have and have used. I think the usual deal is unchanged - if metal in your log ruins the sawyers $30 blade you pay for a new blade!

Even non-urban trees are suspect. A tree out in the middle of the woods may have been on a farm at one time and have barbed wire embedded up to 4-5' above the ground. I know from experience what sound a ceramic electric fence insulator makes when it wins the battle with the bandsaw blade!

You are usually safe to saw above 5' but there goes the butt log.

JKJ

Justin Ludwig
09-26-2017, 9:11 PM
You show me a Osage Orange 60-80 tall, straight, and in Maryland and I'll buy your family a dinner. Welcome to the Creek. Show me a pic of this unicorn.

John K Jordan
09-27-2017, 8:57 AM
You show me a Osage Orange 60-80 tall, straight, and in Maryland and I'll buy your family a dinner. Welcome to the Creek. Show me a pic of this unicorn.

My first thought when reading about this tree was I was ready to hook up the big trailer and drive to Maryland! I've had some big osage before and would love some more.

The Wood Database gives the normal distribution of this tree is south central US, with a diameter of 1-2', height 50-60' - but there are always outliers. I remember a huge osage "horse apple" tree in western Pennsylvania on the edge of the playground where I went to elementary school. (Well, I was small but it looked huge to me!) I've seen them all over Kentucky and some in Ohio.

A friend called me once to see if I wanted some osage on a tree that had died. Turns out that tree was on some registry as the largest Osage Orange tree in Tennessee! The largest sections were gone by the time I got there but the stump cut flush with the ground was over 3' in diameter. The logs I got were mostly straight, 2' dia and smaller. BTW, this tree probably wasn't 30' from the farmhouse - they had built a patio/rock garden around this massive shade tree! I was told they were dismayed when it died.

JKJ

Malcolm McLeod
09-27-2017, 9:13 AM
...
- they had built a patio/rock garden around this massive shade tree! I was told they were dismayed when it died.

JKJ

I'm guessing they didn't spend much time in this garden? Hedge apples (the fruit) dropped 60' onto your head :eek: might evoke a certain lust for chain saws!

Legend has it (...I consider my grandmother to have been somewhat legendary) that the fruit repels cockroaches if a few are placed in the back of cabinets and closets. You're on your own with the problem of the other 300lbs of them you need to get rid of.;)

Jim Becker
09-27-2017, 9:42 AM
John, while Osage Orange naturally came from the central part of the country, my understanding is that Lewis and Clark brought back samples to Thomas Jefferson in Philadelphia and from there it got somewhat distributed here in the east as it was discovered to be great for natural fence rows, etc. I have seen one "monster" OO tree locally and while the initial trunk wasn't very long, the three or four main branches above it probably had 12-16' of relatively straight conformation. It was massive and from a "shade tree" perspective, reminded me of a big old southern water oak. :D Sadly, that tree disappeared one day...

Mel Fulks
09-27-2017, 10:45 AM
Osage are highly evolved,...use the two sex system. Only the females bear fruit .

Wes Mansfield
09-27-2017, 1:54 PM
Hey thanks for the great info! The tree is every bit as big as I said. Will try and get some pics up. I like to make long and recurve bows when I get the chance, but like some have mentioned it would be a tremendous amount of effort to go from tree to usable stave. Still if I do have the tree cut down I will probably keep the best parts and/or offer some up to any local woodworkers who want some.

The tree borders my property a couple hundred feet from my house and a farmers field. So the fence concern could be pretty realistic.

Dennis Ford
09-27-2017, 8:47 PM
A log from this tree might be valuable to the right person. Since the tree is near a property border, it almost certainly contains some metal but hopefully that is confined to the lower 5 ft of trunk. The standing tree has value only to you the property owner.

alex grams
09-29-2017, 1:50 PM
You could very well be correct on the type of tree, but I would be very skeptical on the given description if it is osage. That is well outside its normal range, and the shape/growth style of the tree is not common to be very straight with only a single trunk.

The easiest way is to take a knife and take a chunk of bark off somewhere. They have a white soft sapwood that is maybe 1/4-1/2" thick and a thin bark layer. You should be able to get to heartwood very quickly, and the color will be very distinct, almost safety yellow. As Mel points out, they are diescous, so it could very well be osage but never bear fruit.

Danny Hamsley
09-29-2017, 3:09 PM
Osage orange has stipular thorns on the twigs. Like on a rose bush. Paired thorns at the base of the leaf petiole. Very similar to the the thorns on black locust, which are also stipular.

Scott DelPorte
09-29-2017, 3:15 PM
The guys who cut and sell wood for making acoustic guitars would be very interested in a log like that. Osage orange has properties that work well on acoustic guitars, but is not all that common because it's hard to find straight and wide logs. I don't know of any tonewood suppliers in Maryland, but perhaps with a little digging you could find one.

Jim Andrew
09-29-2017, 8:35 PM
I sawed some osage for a friend here in Kansas. He wanted some 4x10's for a porch beam. The logs I sawed were hard in spots, like they were dry, but had moisture and sawed fine in other spots. Really tough.

Perry Hilbert Jr
10-01-2017, 7:39 AM
When I moved to central PA there were Osage orange trees along many fence rows, but in the last 20 years, every such tree that I knew about has been cut as farmers get rid of fence rows and roads get widened. In fact, I have not seen a single tree in ten years. A arborist buddy has a standing order for ANY osage orange he can get his hands on, And that order is from a guy in Pittsburgh. We were just talking Friday about how some wood has no real commercial value as lumber but a huge hobbyist value for the person who can get it. Also how some woods have risen and fallen in price. But even in his business, no single or even small number of trees is worth so much that he can afford to cut them for free. We also discussed the fact that most large holly trees in the area have been cut down. People just do not want them in their yards like years ago. He does have a deal with a near by saw mill for some logs, but even at that all he gets is a plank or two in exchange.

Wes Mansfield
10-01-2017, 4:42 PM
Just had a chance to snap a few pics. I also did a little trig and came up with 49 feet for the overall height of the tree. So not quite as tall as I thought. The main trunk is about 21 feet in length though before it splits off into the tree canopy/smaller branches. There are 2 other smaller trunks about 14-18" in diameter that go up about 17-18 feet but have a few branches coming off them and are not nearly as straight as the main trunk. Its definitely Osage. I had cut a few branches off a while back and they were bright yellow with the white sap wood. You can see the big green fruit balls on the ground in the pics.




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Ted Phillips
10-05-2017, 10:45 AM
You might give Rick Herbine at Herbine Hardwoods a call. He's in Lucketts VA, north of Leesburg.

herbinehardwood.com
(703) 771-3067
(http://www.herbinehardwood.com/)

Justin Ludwig
11-12-2017, 7:44 AM
If you decide to fall that tree for primary use of making bows: Cherokee anthropologist and bowyer Dr. Al Herrin recommends calling the tree in the winter while dormant and as close to a new moon as possible. Be sure to mark what part of the tree is the top. Upside down how’s dont shoot properly. “Cherokee Bows and Arrows” by Al Herrin, 1989 page 56

”I deliberately cut a tree during the full moon and made the bow upside down. The results reestablished my belief in the wisdom of the old bowyers. The only way I could hit anything with that damned bow was to shoot it while hanging upside down in a tree on a dark night. Since the bow was useless for anything but hunting bats, I gave it to a man I don’t like.”

I met Al in 2005 because I lived in his town and bugged him about bow making. Phenomenal man!

John K Jordan
11-12-2017, 2:48 PM
Cherokee anthropologist and bowyer Dr. Al Herrin recommends calling the tree in the winter while dormant and as close to a new moon as possible. ...

I can understand the winter and dormant part, a good time to fell trees for several reasons. But the phase of the moon suggestion is new to me. Is there science behind that?

JKJ

Justin Ludwig
11-12-2017, 4:25 PM
Nothing that I know of other than his approach I already posted about.

I cut my tree in Oct and it was WET. I didn’t pay attention to the moon phase as I read his book and met him 2 weeks after I cut it. I did adhere to the rule of keeping the top of tree for the top of the bow. My bow is as crooked as a politician and shoots straight as an arrow.

regarding phases: my dad has diliberately ignored the farmers almanac regarding moon phases and had plants that wouldn’t grow right next to plants that were thriving and planted within days of each other but according to phase.

Danny Hamsley
11-16-2017, 8:13 AM
Well, I do not see how the phase of the moon has anything to do with the wood in an osage orange tree that was laid down by the cambium years ago. Oh, and when you fell the tree, be sure that a black cat does not cross in front of you.

Justin Ludwig
11-17-2017, 8:50 AM
I was quoting a book that was written with Cherokee heritage and lore in mind. He didn't elaborate on testing the theory of moon phases, but more on the bow being "upside down." Without applying the scientific method, we're pretty much stuck with allegorical conjecture.

I also think a study in this regard would be for not because each tree is highly unique.

Terry Starch
11-17-2017, 4:31 PM
I have about 325bf of Osage orange. My brother cut down a few and had it sawn and dried. He gave it to me for my birthday. It is super hard. I've made a few things. Here is a few things I made and sold quickly.
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Morey St. Denis
11-20-2017, 11:11 PM
Of course there's valid science behind the lunar phase as applied to harvesting timber during the tree's most dormant season. Well into winter and "As close as possible to a new moon" places the gravitational vectors of both sun and moon in close alignment. Tidal forces would have the sap and water content of a live tree at its lowest about five hours prior to when a new moon could be said to "rise" in the East. Consult an Almanac for the local time of day corresponding to low tide, then fire up the chainsaw . If one could be especially patient over the years, getting the greatest number of gravitational bodies, particularly Mars, Saturn & Jupiter, in superior planetary "conjunction" would be a further minute benefit. It's sometimes referred to as applied biodynamics in agronomy; well established in viticulture & winemaking, the French call it "La Biodynamie", practiced by a goodly number of adherents to notable effect.

I on the other hand, am rather unclear about how orienting the top of a longbow with the tree it was taken from might make a measurable difference in performance or accuracy. Naturally, not being unintentionally "upside down" would seem to be in better keeping with optimal celestial harmony.