pocket holes to glue or not to glue?

[andy photenas]

So I want to say thank you to all that answered my post about how you guys clamp pocket holes i got caught up and didnt get back to the post in time to be able to add too what ppl said.
I am not sold that its less work to pocket screw all of those joints compared to mortise and tenon. its really close on time and way less work to clamp 3 clamps then it is to screw 20-30 screws for a faceframe. Added to the fact you have to just hope the joint looks good because its on the side you cant see.

I see a lot of people talking about how glue helps with the pocket holes but u can just snap off that joint with no problem (without the screws)as its end grain to side grain.
That being said is it worth using glue in this joint at all? For me glue has been the hardest part of making a good clamp system because you need to have a flat plate of some kind to get the faces to line up this plate gets covered in glue after every joint . I would love to know what all of you people think thanks I really learn so much from all of you out there thanks again.

[Jim Becker]

Glue is required beyond test fitting with pocket screws for maximal strength. The glue does the work. The screw only helps a little... ;)

[Cary Falk]

It may not be any faster to screw 20-30 screws then to make mortise and tenons for you. It would for me especially with a complicated glue up with 6 mortise an tenon. The beauty of the pocket hole is you don't have to wait an hour or so for the glue to dry. I also don't have a large table to do glue-ups I like the glue for extra insurance. Is it really necessary, probably not. If you remove the screws after the glue has dried it is surprisingly strong and usually takes wood with it. I also dye the glue to match the finish so I don't have to use any wood filer. Probably over kill but makes me feel better. I worked in a cabinet shop as a kid and they used half lap joints. I used a lot of filler and did a lot of belt sanding. I am just a hobbyist now. Speed demon I am not

[glenn bradley]

Lots of opinions on this. Your application will dictate your strength requirements. A pocket-holed face frame, pocket holed to the carcass is pretty well supported for its function. Higher end kitchen and bath will dictate higher end woodcraft.

For glued butt joints . . .

368454

Properly clamps the show faces should always be flush or close enough that just a touch will take care of them. If things are ending up skewed I would check:
- Are the parts milled true?
- Is the surface or clamp pad being clamped to large and flat enough to bring the joint into plane?
- Is there adequate clamp pressure to avoid parts shifting?

[Martin Wasner]

Glue, unless you want to take it apart again, like a loose stile or a temporary brace for an appliance opening end panel.

[Martin Wasner]

I take it you don't have a widebelt to send assembled frames through? We try to keep things as flush as possible, but we take .026" off of each face with the widebelt so things have to be pretty fouled up before it won't be perfect.

[Mike Cutler]

Glenn
Those are interesting graphs.
Thank you for posting them.

[julian abram]

I use pocket screws on most cabinet face frames and always use Titebond II in each joint, makes me feel better.:)

[Art Mann]

Sorry to disagree but edge grain to end grain glue offers essentially zero strength and you can verify that with a simple break test. I have used several boxes of a thousand pocket screws since I started using them and strength has never been an issue. I have never used glue and never plan to. You have to use them in applications where they are appropriate. They are not a substitute for M&T. However, they are strong enough for probably 75% of all applications where you would use M&T. My objection to them is not structural. My objection is that they are unsightly and should not be used where they can be seen. I suggest you do some destructive testing before you imply that pocket screw joints are not strong by themselves.


Glue is required beyond test fitting with pocket screws for maximal strength. The glue does the work. The screw only helps a little... ;)

[Lee Schierer]

Sorry to disagree but edge grain to end grain glue offers essentially zero strength and you can verify that with a simple test. I have used several boxes of a thousand pocket screws since I started using them and strength has never been an issue. I have never used glue and never plan to.

I agree that the pocket screws add considerable strength to the joint. You can make and end grain to edge grain joint much stronger by applying two coats of glue to the end gran and a single coat to the edge grain before clamping. End grain tends to suck the glue right out of the joint. Once I started doing this with miter joints, (end grain to end grain) I was amazed at how much stronger the joints were.

[Lee Schierer]

Glenn, can you cite the source for those graphs?

[peter gagliardi]

Once you have a mortiser and tenoner, and they are set properly, pocket screws really aren't that much faster, but in either case, glue is needed for permanent fixing.

[Art Mann]

Actually, I sold my hollow chisel mortiser when I got my precision dowel jig and have never looked back. I have done a lot of M&T and found that either dowels or pocket screws are much faster. I have found that most of the time, M&T is 4 or 5 times stronger than necessary whereas dowels are only 3 times stronger than needed and pocket screws 2 times what is needed (guesstimates). The joint I find too weak is the typical glue only cope and stick joint. I have repaired several cabinet doors for people by using dowels to reinforce failed glue joints. Many years ago, this same discussion came up and I convinced myself by recreating an experiment described by Matthias Wandel in a Youtube video. He describes a simple way to obtain accurate breaking strength measurements.

Edit: I found the experiment here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apsH8eBfjVA

I forgot about the ridiculous wooden gear driven screw drive. I used a hydraulic jack to apply the force instead. One of Wandel's pocket joints broke prematurely because of his poor craftsmanship.

[Art Mann]

By the way, I have also seen legitimate experiments that show that dowels outperform Dominos in many situations.

[Ken Grant]

Sorry to disagree but edge grain to end grain glue offers essentially zero strength and you can verify that with a simple break test.

If this is true, then there is something wrong with your glue. I have tried to take glued/pocket-holed face frames apart (that I built incorrectly) in hopes of being able to reuse some of the pieces, and the joint will almost never break cleanly. It is certainly not as strong as a long grain glue joint, but in my experience the end grain will usually have some of the long grain attached to it.

I would not send a cabinet out the door without gluing the pocket hole joints.

[Martin Wasner]

If this is true, then there is something wrong with your glue. I have tried to take glued/pocket-holed face frames apart (that I built incorrectly) in hopes of being able to reuse some of the pieces, and the joint will almost never break cleanly. It is certainly not as strong as a long grain glue joint, but in my experience the end grain will usually have some of the long grain attached to it.

I would not send a cabinet out the door without gluing the pocket hole joints.

Exactly my experience.

[J.R. Rutter]

Ditto for me as well: When breaking apart a frame, the long grain fails in every joint (after screws are backed out). No clean breaks.

A secondary benefit to gluing is that it seals the end grain so that stain doesn't make a darker line at the joint. It also makes a more seamless looking joint under lacquer.

I only use the minimum amount of screws per joint. One for joints less than 2" wide, two for joints wider than that. Add a K-body for a few minutes to pull it up tight if needed. Double apply glue so that it doesn't all wick away.

[Martin Wasner]

I only use the minimum amount of screws per joint. One for joints less than 2" wide, two for joints wider than that. Add a K-body for a few minutes to pull it up tight if needed. Double apply glue so that it doesn't all wick away.

From 1½" up to 4½" we do two screws, from 4½" up we do three screws. In the rare occasion we have a 10" rail it'll get a fourth screw

We don't clamp after assembly, and only one application of glue.

[Bill Berklich]

Lots of opinions on this. Your application will dictate your strength requirements. A pocket-holed face frame, pocket holed to the carcass is pretty well supported for its function. Higher end kitchen and bath will dictate higher end woodcraft.

For glued butt joints . . .

368454

Properly clamps the show faces should always be flush or close enough that just a touch will take care of them. If things are ending up skewed I would check:
- Are the parts milled true?
- Is the surface or clamp pad being clamped to large and flat enough to bring the joint into plane?
- Is there adequate clamp pressure to avoid parts shifting?

Looking like I should junk my biscuit joiner :-(

[andy photenas]

ok so for all of you (and it seems like most people) that do use pocket holes and glue combo, How do you handle the mess the glue makes after every joint on the clamp plate that lines up the face ?
When I do this i get glue all over the face and as mentioned I do not have a wide belt sander or a drum that can handle this large of an item so i end up palm sanding it down.

I did not mention how i make the mortise but it is very fast i cope all ends with a tongue then i run the mortise pieces through a spiral bit on a shaper and clean up on hollow mortise I have one machine that i leave the bits in for each of those cuts so i dont need any setup.

[Jim Becker]

Once you have the piece clamped, glued and screwed, you remove the clamp and then can wipe off any excess glue with a damp cloth or paper towel. With pocket screw joinery, you don't usually leave things clamped beyond the basic assembly...the screw acts as a clamp.

[Martin Wasner]

Once you have the piece clamped, glued and screwed, you remove the clamp and then can wipe off any excess glue with a damp cloth or paper towel. With pocket screw joinery, you don't usually leave things clamped beyond the basic assembly...the screw acts as a clamp.


I don't clamp the joint at all, I pull it tight with the screws. There's a clamp involved, but it's just there to hold the face tight to the table.


Andy, I'd honestly look for a 37" single head widebelt before going after making doors faster. You'll pick up more time doing that than anything else. It'll cost a lot less too, and I think the return will be greater because virtually everything goes through it.

I don't miss those early days, good on you for getting after it.

[Kevin Jenness]

Don't use so much glue. But do use glue- it will minimize creep and hairline cracks in the finish at the joints.

I used to look down on pocket screwed face frames, but after using them for 15 years I am convinced that they are quite adequate when glued and fastened to a box. If I only had a manual Kreg jig I would use spline tenons instead, but I use a manual Castle machine- it takes a couple of seconds to cut the pocket and pilot hole, the lower angle reduces joint shift, and the clamps come off immediately so there is faster turnover and less moving and lifting of clamps ( particularly nice on long and complex frames). Likewise, I use pocket screws to secure face frames to boxes where they won't show- again, far fewer clamps and faster throughput. I don't do much casework anymore, but my pocket hole machine remains quite useful for all sorts of quick, strong (enough) butt joints.

If you can make m&t joints as quickly, or can persuade your clients of the upcharge, good on you.

To each his own method. I have access to a wide belt, but don't run assembled face frames through. The linear stock gets sanded to 150, assembled flush and finish sanded- no cross-grain scratches to eliminate.

[Jim Becker]

I don't clamp the joint at all, I pull it tight with the screws. There's a clamp involved, but it's just there to hold the face tight to the table.
That's the clamp I'm referring to...for some folks, it's a table based clamping system that holds things flat. For others...me, for example...it's the standard Kreg "vice grip" type clamp that overlays the joint to keep things "face flush" while you use the screws to pull things tightly together. I just hang the joint off the edge of the bench and do one joint at a time. I don't do enough work to justify a table based clamping setup...yet. That could change, of course. And a lot of hobbyists just have the simple clamp.

[Martin Wasner]

no cross-grain scratches to eliminate.


I know full well I'm in the minority on this, but I like cross grain. It's easier to sand I think than a scratch that is with the grain. It's just easy to see, whereas when it is with the grain, it's tough to see, but still needs to be sanded out. The main reason is spike loads, secondary is to keep the belts cool, but I kick every thing I can through the sander at an angle and it gives me a scratch that's super easy to see. You still need to sand through the final grit of the widebelt, why not make it easier to do is my theory.

I use pocket screws a lot. Toe kicks into decks. Edging onto wrapped wood tops. Anywhere I don't want to fart around with a bar clamp and they aren't exposed. It's a handy machine.

[Martin Wasner]

That's the clamp I'm referring to...for some folks, it's a table based clamping system that holds things flat. For others...me, for example...it's the standard Kreg "vice grip" type clamp that overlays the joint to keep things "face flush" while you use the screws to pull things tightly together. I just hang the joint off the edge of the bench and do one joint at a time. I don't do enough work to justify a table based clamping setup...yet. That could change, of course. And a lot of hobbyists just have the simple clamp.


I used to use a sheet of melamine, and just clamped them down to that, at the edge. Made me real good at starting at the middle, and working my way out. I don't miss that procedure though. An actual clamp easel or table is money well spent, if you have the space, and if you're doing this for a living.

[Jim Becker]

I used to use a sheet of melamine, and just clamped them down to that, at the edge. Made me real good at starting at the middle, and working my way out. I don't miss that procedure though. An actual clamp easel or table is money well spent, if you have the space, and if you're doing this for a living.
Oh, I agree, and if I started to do commission work with more frequent building of face frames and the like, I'd build a specialized surface to help speed up the assembly.

[Rick Alexander]

I recently inherited a Newton from my dad. I always liked kreg screws for face frames rather than trying to assemble using the double dowels from that Newton because the glueups can get hairy but just playing with it the other day after getting it installed in my shop reminded me just how strong and nice looking that machine made butt joints. Absolutely perfect. I wonder if the Newton will come back in vogue some day. The reason we didn't sell it was because it just didn't seem to be worth much second hand. I'm going to try to adjust to it and give it a try for a couple of projects.

[Warren Lake]

Ive seen resale for a grand, think there is one for about 750 canadian right now, new ones I think were about 5k.

[Justin Ludwig]

ok so for all of you (and it seems like most people) that do use pocket holes and glue combo, How do you handle the mess the glue makes after every joint on the clamp plate that lines up the face ?
When I do this i get glue all over the face and as mentioned I do not have a wide belt sander or a drum that can handle this large of an item so i end up palm sanding it down.

I did not mention how i make the mortise but it is very fast i cope all ends with a tongue then i run the mortise pieces through a spiral bit on a shaper and clean up on hollow mortise I have one machine that i leave the bits in for each of those cuts so i dont need any setup.
practice gluing. I use a glue bit bottle that I've notched a V in the tip. I apply the glue to the end grain of rail or midstile and stay 1/8 to 1/4" from edge. Smooth with finger, butt, clamp, screw, sand. On the rare occasion I get squeeze out on the sides of the joint, I let it dry then use a sharp chisel to pop it off.
It took my helper a long time to figure it out, but he's a slow learner.

If if you don't have an industrial faceframe table, buy one, used. Until then, buy a sheet of 3/4 melamine and make a clamp table with a 4" lip all the way around it. I used that method for 4 years until I found my Ritter FF table for 2k.

[phil harold]

If if you don't have an industrial faceframe table, buy one, used. Until then, buy a sheet of 3/4 melamine and make a clamp table with a 4" lip all the way around it.
any pictures or more details on this?
i would like to make my own

[Martin Wasner]

any pictures or more details on this?


This one isn't mine, but it's the same model.

https://auctionimages.s3.amazonaws.com/35286/8340/2953955_2NB1AAPXG.jpg

[Art Mann]

One of the things I have done is repair "cope and stick" glue failures on kitchen cabinet doors. I have seen it several times. They are easy to repair with a good dowel jig. That joint is a lot edge to end grain but is a little better than a simple butt joint. Perhaps those failures were due to poor gluing technique or abuse. I don't know. I do know that in these cases, pocket screws would have held up better, even with no glue. That is where my opinion comes from.

I don't use pocket screws on cabinet frames because they are ugly. I might use them assembling a box if they wouldn't show. I do have cabinets and an outfeed/assembly table in my shop that were assembled exclusively with pocket screws. These support much more weight and get far more use and abuse than anything you would find in a normal kitchen. They are just as tight now as they were 10 or 12 years ago when they were built. No glue.


If this is true, then there is something wrong with your glue. I have tried to take glued/pocket-holed face frames apart (that I built incorrectly) in hopes of being able to reuse some of the pieces, and the joint will almost never break cleanly. It is certainly not as strong as a long grain glue joint, but in my experience the end grain will usually have some of the long grain attached to it.

I would not send a cabinet out the door without gluing the pocket hole joints.

[Justin Ludwig]

any pictures or more details on this?
i would like to make my own
I'll take pictures tomorrow of my roll-around. It's not melamine but will be when I decide to replace the top.

[J.R. Rutter]

a clamp table with a 4" lip all the way around it.

I integrated a clamping surface into my outfeed table. It works well for our needs. Very long frames extend back over the table saw as needed.

https://i.imgur.com/tZjqb93.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bUxnu6k.jpg

We bought a bunch of this pre-primed exterior sign board for making shop tables. It is nice and flat with alternating layers of wood and HDF.

[phil harold]

I'll take pictures tomorrow of my roll-around. It's not melamine but will be when I decide to replace the top.

That would be great!
thanks

[Justin Ludwig]

368830

My roll-around is an old hospital bed from when blood-letting was still standard practice. ca.1820 :D It will crank up about 8-10" and is one handy table. The top, I think, is BC ply with about 4000 coats of paste wax. I traded a microwave cabinet for this beauty.

368831
Melamine is ideal. Cheap, flat, and glue wont stick to it. I cut up a piece for my chop saw tables as it was free (used as a cover sheet on one of my orders).

368832
Like JR, my TS outfeed table is a full sheet of china birch with a 1.5" maple band. It is crowned in the middle so its not ideal for clamping faceframes, but makes for easy sliding of sheet goods which I no longer break down because of the VPS in the background.



To the OP:
368833

Find one of these used. Talk about a time saver. I can also assemble doors on this one (those clamps are on the floor.)

[phil harold]

Thanks Lud!!!

[J.R. Rutter]

So I broke apart the joint that I pictured above. Backed out the screw first. Good enough for me...

https://i.imgur.com/G3WfqwD.jpg