Is woodturning really competitive?

[Harold Balzonia]

Warning: This is a philosophical thread....

There have been a few times I've been approached at shows and told "I used a lathe in high school and made stuff like this..."

I've read forums where people have pretty powerful opinions on how to do things but have never shown a photo of their own work.... That always makes me a little skeptical....

And I sometimes look at pictures of turnings and think "I wonder how they did that? ... Could I do something like that? Maybe I could do it better if I did this....."

And that's the thought that gets to me... what is "better" when it comes to wood turning? Do you compare your work to other people's? Do you look at some work and think "meh, I could do that... it's not that hard..."

It took me a long while to (mostly) get over comparing my stuff to other people's work. I did this a lot when I first started many years ago. But once I gave up "competing" with others in my own mind, my enjoyment actually increased. And I'm pretty sure my end results improved as well.

I wonder if anyone else has thought about this? Do others view this hobby/career as "competitive" and does it affect the way you work? Do the production turners in the forum feel pressure to "beat" the other guys? (Whatever that means). Are you ever driven to "one up" something you see from another turner?

[Rick McQuay]

Woodturning specifically, I'm not good enough to feel competitive with anyone nor anyone with me. But woodworking in general it feels like everyone wants to be "the master" whether they have 30 years experience, 3 months experience, or are still getting ready to start someday. But I understand what you mean. Used to be I did whatever I wanted to do and was happy but then the internet came along and for awhile I felt unhappy and I suppose a bit competitive. Now I'm trying to get back to where I don't care what other people do and just enjoy myself.

[david beck]

First i will say, i never have and never will show pics of anything i make or have made. So i dont normally post on here(same with the other forum i am on) because on here pics rule the world. With that said, i dont suppose i am competitive (woodworking wise) in any real sense, if i was surely i would care what others think and i sure dont. Although i am VERY competitive in the sense i judge my own work as harshly or much more so than others work. I still to this day cant look at any project i have made and not first think of the mistakes in it. Does not matter how nice it is i still think it could be better.

[Phil Hansen]

Hi David,
You said it nicely,
I am a harsh judge of my own work and I let the customers agree or not.
The customer is the one who has the final say. If I am happy and they are - all is good.
If I am not happy I will redo.
If they are not happy I will fix.
External critics do not always see the big picture in a little snapshot.

Just my point of view.
Phil

[Tim Passmore]

I love to see the craftsmanship of other turners/woodworkers-----I often find their work to be a source of inspiration or ideas. The only "competion" that I'm concerned with is with myself. Is my last turning better than previous projects? Are my skills improving? Am I learning new techniques? If I can answer "yes" to these questions, then I'm pleased. Being pleased doesn't mean I'm satisfied.

[Thom Sturgill]

I don't think of it as competition. I judege mine more harshly than others because as the artist, I know what I was trying for, the viewer (I don't sell) or recipient can only judge the piece by itself or by comparison to other pieces they have seen.

When I see a "new" design, I may think - "that has some interesting challenges or requires a new technique" and may thus become determined to make a similar piece myself. A good example was my reaction to seeing the beaded bowls. I've only made two so far and determined that one needs to be a bit more anal than I am to get perfect results, but I can do a passable job.

[John K Jordan]

I'll have to think about that for a while. I never feel competitive but maybe I'm fooling myself. When I see excellent or unique turnings my thoughts are "I wanna try that", not "I'll do it better" to show him up.

Like many of us, I'm my own most critical critic so I guess I am in very strong competition with myself! I've reworked some things two or three times, removed finishes, tweaked a shape, etc. - if still unsatisfied it goes into the wood stove or my Box-O-Shame. (I have a good friend who is a well known potter - you should see the midden of smashed pottery behind his house!)

I do think inspiration from excellence in other's work is so valuable, in forums, print, or better, in person. I love club show-and-tell time. I have a shelf of books in my little library just for inspiration of function, form, and finish. One guy said recently on another forum, "If you are the best turner you know, go find more turners." !!!

Very soon after I started turning wood I quit listening to the self-appointed critics concerning design "rules". I do want to be the best I can possibly be with clean curves and surfaces without unintentional defects. I do sigh inside when I see show-and-tell pieces with obvious inattention to these things but then, hey, hobby woodturning is for fun and that guy is in the shop instead of sitting in front of the TV! But I do notice things I would call "defects" not so I can do better than that guy but so I can be more aware of what to look for in my own turnings.

BTW, I never offer suggestions on pieces unless asked. However, when someone comes to me I do highly enjoy teaching what I've learned - one guy was at my shop for almost 7 hours yesterday! - skew lesson, sharpening, appropriate tools, work holding, form, sanding. I get immense satisfaction when someone's turnings take a step forward after we work on techniques. I ran into one guy who reminded me of the skew lessons years before and said the skew was one now of his favorite tools! Yea!

I'll have to "philosophically" examine my motives in the coming months and see if my satisfaction comes from what I do or if some is in comparison to others.

This should be an excellent thread!

JKJ

[ELY WALTON]

Over the years, I have limited myself to four hobbies. Woodworking (mostly turning) is one. IMHO, competition is a good way to ruin a good hobby. Just sayin'

Ely
(BTW, other three hobbies are fishing, amateur radio/high-speed telegraphy, and mountain biking -- all have potential for competition.)

[John K Jordan]

...IMHO, competition is a good way to ruin a good hobby. Just sayin'


So right. So is turning it in to job with the goal of making money. Would be for me, anyway!

(Yikes, I'll bet my wife wishes I would stick to four hobbies! Or even six...)

JKJ

[roger wiegand]

Being competitive is a losing proposition for the 99.999% of the population that lacks the combination of innate "talent" (whatever that is) plus the willingness to devote the 20,000 hours of hard practice that it takes to master any one thing. At most we can try for one such thing, maybe two if you are a genius superstar. I admire and try to learn from those who are better than I, and try, in turn, to pass on what I know. And have some fun in the meantime.

[Joe Bradshaw]

For me, woodturning is more about sharing the process with other turners. I don't mind having my work judged by others. It is the only way to improve. I enjoy looking at other turners work. I get ideas and can sometimes combine several features into one finished piece. I like to push myself to improve, but, sometimes, I just have to say that this is as good as I can do today. But, then we all have those moments when you hold your mouth just right and the planets and stars line-up and you get a piece that surprises yourself. I think that the only person that I compete with is myself.
Joe

[ron david]

Being competitive is a losing proposition for the 99.999% of the population that lacks the combination of innate "talent" (whatever that is) plus the willingness to devote the 20,000 hours of hard practice that it takes to master any one thing. At most we can try for one such thing, maybe two if you are a genius superstar. I admire and try to learn from those who are better than I, and try, in turn, to pass on what I know. And have some fun in the meantime.I am glad that you do not believe in Malcolm Gladwell's philosophy of 10,000 hours ( the outliers) make a master. Hours alone really mean squat. there are very few that have the capabilities to become a master at what they do
ron

[Chris Gunsolley]

Great topic! I just want to add that you can judge a creation without any consideration for the potential superiority/inferiority between pieces. Judge each piece individually, in terms of interpretation, as opposed to comparison. Every piece simply says something different--this has nothing to do with what's better or worse. When a person says that an artist should have done something different, they fail to see what the different potential outcomes of a piece have to offer. Something that is bottom heavy may not look as light but it looks more grounded. Something that's more top heavy is on its toes, giving it life and making the energy it contains apparent. A round form is bulbous and in motion, an enclosed form embraces what it holds, while a concave form is inviting and emerging. A piece with voids suggests that regardless of the events in life, a consistent 'spirit' in each of us remains. Tool marks suggest that something can be appreciated regardless of apparent flaws (yes, believe it or not, you can make a piece with intentional tool marks). As my friend Prashun pointed out, a crack is a celebration of how wood releases tension. A thin wall is elegance but a thicker wall is strength. Perfection itself is intriguing and a mesmerizing demonstration of precision. Abstract work gets my wheels rolling but others may prefer a painting that rivals reality. These qualities combine with one another and the quality of the material to give rise to a unique personality just as you see in you or I. My point is that regardless of the intention of the artist, all of these outcomes are beautiful in their own way for the different meanings they convey.

I love other turners because in sharing a love for turning I think we are kindred spirits.

[Damon McLaughlin]

I've only been working with wood for two years and never once did I feel competitive with others. I admire what others do and learn from them as well. I enjoy looking at pictures for ideas, most of which I modify to my own tastes. But I've never felt the need to compete with others. With myself I always challenge myself to learn something new or to do a skill set better. I'm constantly wanting the next turning or flat work to be better than the one before. I don't know if that is being competitive with myself or not, I've always considered it as challenging myself.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Depends on how you define competition. There are the bigger and better toy boys. "I have a HF-12 x 34 lathe and the next guy claims he has a 16x 40 Grizzly and another has a jet or powermatic. Yeah I see some of that. But that is not for me.

Is competition in the number of pieces or the design of segmented turning. Seen some of that too. (Although frankly segmented turning currently does nothing for me.)

Getting huge expensive pieces of extremely exotic wood to work with. I see a bit of that in most places.

Recently at out club, we had a hands on learning session with several lathes on hand, a grinder and experienced folks to guide the newbies. I learned so much that evening. I did take notice, a little "member" envy between members over their tools. I was there with a selection of varied used stuff picked up at yard sales and flea markets. I am still learning to sharpen. A cryogenic, GMO fiber handled, diamond tipped scraper with blue tooth means nothing to me. but does to some folk apparently.

I have kept pieces of my work, from the first thing I turned in 40 years to what I turned last week. If I am into any turning competition, it is with myself. How can I improve the finish, are there still scratches. How fine is the work. does the bowl have a gradual even thinning of the wall. is the bottom still heavy and clunky? Could I make one so fine, light shows through?

I look at the work of others as inspiration. Honestly, I saw a vendor at a show doing turnings, and folks were lined up to buy. I saw the quality as substandard. It was that guys work that prompted me back into turning. And yes, my first turning in all those years was not as good as his product, but I was there in a space of a few weeks. I suppose that is a type of competition. But the ornaments I turn are donated to charity and sell surprisingly well for the charity.

[Mike Cutler]

Harold

As a non turner, (I do own a lathe and do know how to use it. I just have no interest in turning as the form.) Maybe I can offer some slightly objective answers


Warning: This is a philosophical thread....

There have been a few times I've been approached at shows and told "I used a lathe in high school and made stuff like this..."

I turned bowls, platters, and columns, in school also, but I know that it was okay for a teenager.I wasn't making anything close to what I have seen on this forum and at shows.

I've read forums where people have pretty powerful opinions on how to do things but have never shown a photo of their own work.... That always makes me a little skeptical....

The proof is in the work. If it's good, it's good. I am always a bit skeptical also.

And I sometimes look at pictures of turnings and think "I wonder how they did that? ... Could I do something like that? Maybe I could do it better if I did this....."

This is healthy and not one thing wrong with it. There are folks here on the board doing "flatwork" that just amazes me, and which pushes me me to be more exact with this craft and pay attention to detail. Trying to emulate people's work, like the late Mark Singer's, has made me a much better craftsman. I look at projects I did 25 years ago, and what I can do today, and it's a little embarrassing.:o

And that's the thought that gets to me... what is "better" when it comes to wood turning? Do you compare your work to other people's? Do you look at some work and think "meh, I could do that... it's not that hard..."

To do anything well, is hard. I always approach something new as a learning experience. I may say that doesn't look that difficult, let me try it and teach myself.

It took me a long while to (mostly) get over comparing my stuff to other people's work. I did this a lot when I first started many years ago. But once I gave up "competing" with others in my own mind, my enjoyment actually increased. And I'm pretty sure my end results improved as well.

I don't believe I am competing with people. At least I hope not. I do however "compete" to see if I can learn their techniques and incorporate them into my own work.

I wonder if anyone else has thought about this? Do others view this hobby/career as "competitive" and does it affect the way you work? Do the production turners in the forum feel pressure to "beat" the other guys? (Whatever that means). Are you ever driven to "one up" something you see from another turner?

There is a certain amount of ego involved in all aspects of woodworking. It makes us all better as long as it used in a healthy manner.

[Stan Calow]

So far I have been turning only for the purpose of making utilitarian things -table legs, tool handles, pens, utensils, etc. There's a point i think where people start getting into turning bowls and other decorative objects where it goes from woodworking to art. Then as with other artists, its more about challenging and competing with yourself, rather than other turners. That's my observation anyway.

[John Keeton]

Harold, I have been interested to see what responses you got. It is difficult to lump all turners into one pot. I am often reminded of the "whittlers" I would pass by when I was a kid. They sat on the courthouse steps, and I would often stop and watch them. Some were happy with just peeling very fine shavings from a cedar stick, with no thought of "making" anything. Others came closer to "carvers" and usually ended up with something recognizable. Then, there were others somewhere in the middle. But, above all, they enjoyed what they were doing, including the fellowship. I view turners much the same way. Some turn simply because they enjoy feeling and seeing the ribbons of wood coming from applying a well sharpened gouge against a piece of wood. Others (I am in this group) see turning as just one process used to produce a finished product. Then, there are others somewhere in the middle. All are equally valid reasons to be a woodturner.

But, for what little it is worth I thought I would offer my input on some of your questions in red below.
And that's the thought that gets to me... what is "better" when it comes to wood turning? For me, form is of primary importance and overshadows everything else. There are guidelines that when used produce work (whether turnings, furniture, photography, etc.) that is rather universal in its aesthetic appeal. Those guidelines/principals have been the same for centuries. When those are incorporated into a turning, IMO it will be "better" when compared to a piece that has a good surface, beautiful wood, and color, but lacks good form.

Do you compare your work to other people's? No, and in fact, as you noted I think this is counterproductive and stifles creativity.

Do you look at some work and think "meh, I could do that... it's not that hard..." Sometimes, but that doesn't address whether I "want" to do so. Like most beginning turners, when I started I often did "want to try that" to as it was a way to push myself and learn new skills. Now, however, while I have no desire to replicate someone's else s work, I may still see techniques, embellishment applications, etc. that I find interesting and I often will think of how I might incorporate that technique into the work I want to do. I have done that with basket illusion, acrylic texturing, embossed texturing, color, metal reactive paints, carvings, and so on.

Do others view this hobby/career as "competitive" and does it affect the way you work? Yes, but only as to my own work, capabilities and artistic expression. I do sell the vast majority of what I turn and every piece is done as well as I can do it at that moment, with the skills I have, and given the results I intended at the beginning. So in that sense I "compete with myself." However, I know I approach turning from an entirely different perspective than do others. I enjoy turning "one offs" and the "idea" or inspiration happens first, then I develop how the piece needs to be turned, either mentally and often with sketches, and what wood will be used. I am just not interested in competing against anyone else. I am doing the best I can do given what the good Lord has blessed me with, so competing against others would have no gain and would destroy the fun of turning - at least for me.

Do the production turners in the forum feel pressure to "beat" the other guys? (Whatever that means). Are you ever driven to "one up" something you see from another turner?I am not a production turner, but I would think that if one's livelihood depends on the product produced, there would have to be considerations of price, supply demands, etc. However, once a niche is found, I think those factors may diminish. But, again, my thoughts on this are meaningless as I complete a piece or two every 3-4 weeks, so I am far removed from being a production turner!

[Roger Chandler]

Interesting questions and answers! I turn for my "purposes," period. My purposes may not be the same motivations others may have. I enjoy the craft, it's technical and artistic aspects, the tools involved, and a general love of woodworking in particular.

I sell my items, so a high degree of quality is required at the galleries, which always challenges me to go the extra step, take the extra time to get high quality finish/form. While the competition is certainly there for the available sales with other turners in our area, I deliberately do not compete with them. Most every turner who sells in galleries are going to have some bowls, pens and bottle stoppers on display, so I go out of my way not to step on others "style" of work, even though I easily could if I wanted to.

I value the other's efforts and work, and want mine to shine because of it's quality, form, finish and the artistic features I add.

[Prashun Patel]

I have never thought of it as competitive. When I see others' work it inspires me to do better; it doesn't discourage me in the slightest. I think this is how I know it is the right hobby for me.

i also love seeing beginner work because it gives me a chance to help others as I have been helped and reminds me how far I have come.

[Brad Barnhart]

A good thread with good answers. I've been turning now three years, when I can. My scroll saws keep me busy most of the time.

Turning, in it's own way, is relaxing for me, takes my mind off the seriousness of other projects goin' on in the shop. It's sometimes amazing to me, how I can chuck up a piece of wood, with no particular design or idea in mind, and end up with something I can add to my scroll work, or even just sit on the shelf to admire.
I'm self taught. There isn't a club within miles of here. I do have a gentleman I can turn to for advice.
Competition can be a big word, when it comes to turning, woodworking, etc. That is the one of the main reasons we stopped doing craft events. I refuse to compete with anyone for any reason. I am a self taught wood woodworker, & a scroll sawyer. I have been at this 25 years plus, & continue to learn. I've been fortunate to make several friends in wood working, here included. At times, there are questions that do arise that I'd like answers to, & have found most of them here. Keep turnin'!

[Thomas Canfield]

I hate to compare woodturning to golf, but for some it is a profession and some a hobby. For me, it is primarily a hobby with a few sales. I try to judge my work against others, but also try to see improvement in my work or try something new and different. Of course, I can walk out my back door 15 steps any time of day or night and enjoy my hobby workshop (gave up golf in '72 due to lack of time and expense). I do like to see what others do and often will use that as basis to make improvement. I like to take some different types of pieces to SWAT Instant Gallery to not show quality, but things others can certainly do better, and get inspiration to try new ideas based on what others display knowing that there will not be any direct competition between pieces. The big difference is there is not a "par" posted for the turnings. I not sure what the equivalent of "breaking 100" would be with turning, but it seems a lot easier to obtain that in golf.

[Mark Greenbaum]

I have never really tried to sell my wood turnings. I probably could (and should, because I am running out of places to put them). I tend to compete with myself - always trying to improve a little bit with each project. But I also tend to take after my Dad, whose name was Jack (he used to say he was a Jack of all trades, and a Master of none). Truth be told, he was a Master of Music and a very smart man. I tend to be a crafty person, suffering from Tangentiality. I start a project, then veer off on a tangent, then pursue that, then veer again, etc., etc. etc. It started a long time ago with leathersmithing, the silversmithing, lapidary, faceting, casting, jewelry manufacturing, 3D CADCAM Jewelry Design and manufacturing, then guitar building, then woodturnng. Funny thing is I still do projects in each media. Although I am not a Master of any. Life seems too short to worry about it though. I have alos found that if a person loves to create, the goal is sometimes momentary - because the next project comes up quickly.

[George Guadiane]

I should start by saying I think that humans are competitive by nature.
The "I made stuff like this in high school" people are insecure and socially unskilled.
When I started turning, I heard a lot of EMPHATIC "do this" "NEVER do that" stuff. Thankfully, I heard a couple of people (who's work I admired) say that there is more than one way to do things.
"Better?" How about more to my taste or in my own style?
Personally, I look for graceful lines. I'm probably more of a classicist. Every now and then I go off the rails, but mostly not that often.
At more than one symposium and/or club meeting I've been involved in speed contests, egg shape, ball, egg cup, for instance. I don't think it's been serious for any of us though, just an exercise for "bragging rights."
I still compare my work to that of those I admire and respect. I think it helps me refine my skills in form and finishing. There are some common forms that I think one has to look at to have a baseline, bowls for instance.
My 2 cents

[John K Jordan]

...
Personally, I look for graceful lines. I'm probably more of a classicist. Every now and then I go off the rails, but mostly not that often.
At more than one symposium and/or club meeting I've been involved in speed contests, egg shape, ball, egg cup, for instance. I don't think it's been serious for any of us though, just an exercise for "bragging rights."...

George, have you seen Mike Darlow's book "Woodturning Design"? I think it is fascinating, especially for those of us who love the "classical lines". And he debunks a myth or two that some critics use as ammunition.

Your turning contests reminded me of a friendly competition that turner John Lucas got into once with a friend - see who could turn the smallest goblet! Some are so tiny they look like a speck of sawdust. He said he made skews and hollowing tools from sewing needles, had to work under magnifiers. One pore in the wrong place would blow up the stem. May the best man, wi.., er, have fun!

JKJ

[Gary Baler]

Just wanted to show appreciation for the wonderful comments in this thread ... and for the thread. A great deal of passion and deep appreciation of the subject has been shown.


I am at shows of one kind or another about 60 days a year and get a kick out of the comments such as, "Oh, I can make you one of these ... no problem." I used to tell them I'll bet you $1,000 and give you 24 hours in my shop... the bet is that you can not make one of these. Now I just smile.


For the guys (and a few gals) who made one in high school shop, it goes something like this. A portly gentleman in his seventies, wearing suspenders and using a cane will stand by my tent. When I don't have a customer, he will ease over to me and oozing nostalgia say, "You know, when I was in 9th grade I made a bowl for my mother. SHE LOVED IT!!! I still have it 50 years later. One turning experience in his life has created a lasting memory that still gives him great satisfaction. These are some of the most endearing characters I meet.


Hopefully we can all carry the effect that turning has had on us to our grave.


Gary Baker

[peter Joseph]

Yes! Of course! The man with the thinnest walls,

in the largest form,

with the smallest opening,

Wins!!!

[George Guadiane]

Was that contest with Steve Sherman by any chance?
Steve has a blackwood box about the diameter of an aspirin or Excedrin with three or 4 TINY turnings inside.

[Harold Balzonia]

I appreciate the thoughtful replies to my post... it seems there is quite a bit of consensus that we seem mostly to compete with ourselves. Makes sense...

the impetus for the question was a conversation I had with my 10 year old daughter. She asked if I was one of "the best" turners whatever that means to her. In order to get off the topic, I said something like I'm probably the best one that she knows so that's all I care about....

And I thought about how I have come to the point now where I only turn what I want and use shapes/processes that I find interesting. I couldn't reproduce something I've made if I wanted to. Everything I make is one-off and just comes out of my head.

And then this weird, contradictory truth hit me.... I realized I don't really care what anyone else thinks about my turnings, but then I will ask for comments about my turnings.... that doesn't make any sense, at all. If I don't care what other people think, how can I dare ask my peers for their comments?

What I've come up with is: I think I like to hear/read reactions that people have regarding what I've made whether they are good or bad. What does their gut tell them about what they see? After all, I can't do anything to change the piece after it's finished.... perhaps I don't care if what I've created is good or bad, or better or worse than someone else's, I just want there to be some reaction. Honestly, the stuff that I sell the quickest is often the stuff that I think is the ugliest! But it creates a visceral reaction. That's when I know I might have hit on something with a piece. The response I hate the most is the one where someone picks up a piece, puts it down and just walks away.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and reading mine.

[John K Jordan]

Was that contest with Steve Sherman by any chance?
Steve has a blackwood box about the diameter of an aspirin or Excedrin with three or 4 TINY turnings inside.

I should see Sir Lucas in a couple of days and I'll ask him.

I'd like to try some smaller stuff sometime just for fun. The last tiny turning I did was years ago and don't even come close to Tiny, although they do fit on a penny. Ebony and cocobolo.

368584

I think I can do much better now. I have in mind several small table things all at the same scale, plate, platter, vase, pepper grinder, coffee cup with handle... One advantage to turning tiny is the wood sure goes a long way! :)

JKJ