New workshop...electrical questions

[Bill Jobe]

Not sure this is the proper subforum, but I have a new workshop being built with delivery date 4-6 weeks out.
My question is: my son-in-law, a licenced electrician wired my g0766 by running 2 110s and replacing the plug on the lathe. Runs just fine, but my new shop will have a 220 dust collector, as well, and i'm wondering if it would be worth the expense of having the utility co. run 220 from the pole to the house.
I read somewhere that using 2 110s uses more electricity and may also affect the performance of 220 units.
What would you recomend? The power pole is about 60' from the house. Thanks. Bill

[Bob Bouis]

I think you're having trouble with the terminology.

You already have 220v at your house. Everyone does unless they live in a mobile home powered by an extension cord from their parents' house. Basically how it works is that your breaker box get two legs, each 110v. If you use one leg only for a circuit, it's a 110v circuit. If you use both legs (with a double/two-pole breaker) it's 220v.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

I think you're having trouble with the terminology.

You already have 220v at your house. Everyone does unless they live in a mobile home powered by an extension cord from their parents' house. Basically how it works is that your breaker box get two legs, each 110v. If you use one leg only for a circuit, it's a 110v circuit. If you use both legs (with a double/two-pole breaker) it's 220v.

+1

Right on the money with this

[Brice Rogers]

Not sure this is the proper subforum, but I have a new workshop being built with delivery date 4-6 weeks out.
My question is: my son-in-law, a licenced electrician wired my g0766 by running 2 110s and replacing the plug on the lathe. Runs just fine, but my new shop will have a 220 dust collector, as well, and i'm wondering if it would be worth the expense of having the utility co. run 220 from the pole to the house.
I read somewhere that using 2 110s uses more electricity and may also affect the performance of 220 units.
What would you recomend? The power pole is about 60' from the house. Thanks. Bill

I agree with the comments of the previous posters.

But I'm wondering if you are describing the undesirable situation where your SIL either has two 110 wires coming from the wall going to a single plug?.
Or I'm wondering if your SIL has two 110 circuits - - each with its own 110 breaker.
Or two 110 cables from the breaker box to the receptacle.
Neither of the three above scenarios is recommended or per code.

Is this what you are describing with your post ?

[Bill Dufour]

240 uses half the amps of 120 for equal power. this allows use of smaller wire and breakers. Are you saying he is pulling 120 from two separate outlets and tieing it together at the saw?
Bill

[Bill Jobe]

I don't know the answers to the questions regarding how my sil intends to wire it, but I just had a guy come out and look the place over where I'll be setting the 12x20 portable garage. It will not be used to store a car or truck, simply a workshop.
Just heard back from him and he wants $1800 to build a compacted gravel pad. Way beyond what I was expecting.
Would like your responses on that price. The ground is level from end to end but will need a few inches side to side that can be done by simply scraping it from side to side.

[John K Jordan]

...I just had a guy come out and look the place over where I'll be setting the 12x20 portable garage. It will not be used to store a car or truck, simply a workshop.
Just heard back from him and he wants $1800 to build a compacted gravel pad. Way beyond what I was expecting.
Would like your responses on that price. The ground is level from end to end but will need a few inches side to side that can be done by simply scraping it from side to side.

I've built a number of compacted pads, both dirt and gravel, here at my farm - up to 35x75, a few for 8x40 storage buildings, the latest a few months ago for a little 10x20 portable building. I don't know anything about the cost since I do this with my own bobcat and tractor, but it does take a bit of time and effort. (It took me months to make the big pad but I had a significant amount of fill on one corner which requires special care with small equipment like mine.) To hire the job there is equipment transportation to your site, cutting away the topsoil and any grass and doing something with it, leveling, compacting the dirt, hauling in gravel, spreading, compacting the gravel, and re-leveling and smoothing as needed.

A little pad like you need is pretty simple but you still don't want it to settle or your portable building may warp. (If this is for a shop it is likely to have a lot of weight inside!) Also, be SURE the drainage is handled properly to direct water away from the pad or parts of your pad may wash away, especially since you said there is a bit of a slope, or at minimum stay sopping wet which is not good for the building. Drainage usually requires cutting back even further - I usually just slope the ground and cut a shallow ditch to bring the water around both sides but it can get more involved.

To get an idea of the cost maybe call some other contractors and see what they charge per hour for the equipment and for any haul/setup time, figure the cost of gravel based on the size and thickness of the pad, and guess at the number of work hours. You may also want to get estimates/bids from more than one person.

Note: I am NOT a contractor nor do I have professional experience. I just do this for myself to suit myself and mostly for fun so consider what I say appropriately. As an inspector back in the '70s I did hang out at a lot of building sites so I have a little idea how things should be done, or at least how they were done then!

JKJ

[Robert Engel]

For a shop that size you don't need a separate service.

A 60-100A subpanel will suffice.

Put the DC on a dedicated circuit.

I also suggest two separate 110 circuits if you plan to use a shop vac to collect a router, etc.

[Bill Dufour]

your power question makes no sense. Do you currently have electricity at shop but not the house?
Bill

[Julie Moriarty]

If your SIL is an experienced electrician, he should know how to properly wire a 240v receptacle. He should also know how to wire and install a sub panel to your new workshop. Your local inspector can be a great source for information as to what he or she requires for the sub panel feed and connecting loads. On every job I have run, the first thing I do is call the local electrical inspector to make sure we are on the same page.

The National Electric Code (NEC) is what most municipalities use for their local electrical code requirements. But some municipalities make changes and some inspectors have their own interpretation of the NEC. That's why it's a good idea to involve your building inspector(s) from the start. While answers provided on this forum may be correct, it's possible they may be incorrect for your municipality due to the reasons given above.

You have a licensed electrician and access to your building inspector. Let them answer your questions and you won't have problems later.

[Mike Heidrick]

Most pad prep quotes I got on my place were around $1500. Id say that at least comparable to mine but does not mean I was not taken either :) It was built into my concrete quote. Those guys did several other jobs to help me - lay out moisture barrier and lay and tyvek tape foam boards, help run and tie ~2700' of radant heat floor pex - I was glad to pay them what they asked at the end. Saved my back and a ton of time.

[Bill Jobe]

My SIL is a very highly skilled residential and Comercial licensed electrician. His jobs are mostly in manufacturing and meat processing plants. Not only is he one of their best men but he also at times is given a management position with a number of Comercial electricians and a number of apprentices in his charge.
I'm the one who is totally lost. I just could not understand how he ran 110 to my garage and wired my 220 g0766 to run with it.
When I get the new shop I intend to add a 220 dust collector.
He bought a larger panel/box for the house and plans to use the old box it the workshop.

The collector I intend to get is 5hp, but I read somewhere that without running 220 from the utility pole, a 5 hp motor will not make 5hp.
Was this bad information?
If so, is my 0766 making 3hp?
He says it will all be fine, so I just leave that all up to him. I'll mention contacting the inspector and let him decide if he wants him involved from the start.

I want to thank all of you for your advise and encouragement. It should all start to come together in 4 or 5 weeks, er...that is...if my SIL can find the time. He works lots of hours and that leaves him with little time for my daughter and grandkids. I don't want to rob them of his time. So i'll just let him work it in at his convenience. Bill

[Bill Jobe]

Forgot to mention I have 4 guys showing up this weekend and next week to give estimates on the compacted gravel pad.
Meanwhile I can get started on it a little at a time.
With a bad knee, hip and both shoulders I have to take it kinda easy.
I should have the ground sufficiently level by the time I hire a contractor.

[Lane Hardy]

Bill how is the project going? Have they delivered a set the building? What did your SIL do about the AC?
and the compacting of gravel for the building?

[Bill Jobe]

I called the Amish shop where it's supposed to be built. According to the guy I talked to they are very busy and have not even started on mine.

[Bill Jobe]

Going on 5 weeks since I ordered it.

[mark mcfarlane]

Bill, for the record, the discussion about how 220V is derived from two 110V legs assumes you are living in North America. If you live in Europe, Asia, Middle East,... that discussion is incorrect.

[David J Blackburn]

Youve got 220 coming from the pole, for sure. With the proper wire and breaker size, you'll get 5hp. Without the right breaker size, you'll pop the breaker and without the right wire size, you risk fire. From the sound of it, your son in law knows what he's doing and you're fine. But you don't need the power company to do anything.

[Bill Jobe]

Youve got 220 coming from the pole, for sure. With the proper wire and breaker size, you'll get 5hp. Without the right breaker size, you'll pop the breaker and without the right wire size, you risk fire. From the sound of it, your son in law knows what he's doing and you're fine. But you don't need the power company to do anything.

That's great news. Thank you, David.:)

[Bill Dufour]

Note you have 120/240. 110/220 was gone in most of the country by ww2.
Bill

[Bill Jobe]

Note you have 120/240. 110/220 was gone in most of the country by ww2.
Bill

So that's why all the confusing numbers. Thank you.

[Frank Pratt]

Note you have 120/240. 110/220 was gone in most of the country by ww2.
Bill

Thanks for pointing that out. I regularly correct people for calling it 110/220, but after a while...

[John K Jordan]

Note you have 120/240. 110/220 was gone in most of the country by ww2.

I personally don't think it is worth worrying over the exact specification target numbers. This is why: When we see or hear 110, 115, or 120 volts I believe most people automatically think "aah, AC electrical power, shop radio, electric lights" and we all know exactly what is meant. The actual voltage measured with an accurate meter at a receptacle in this country is almost guaranteed to be something other than 120v. If it's 115v call the power company and see what they say.

When we write characters such as "110v" or "120v" we do not really use them to mean a number but a name, a label to describe something: the lower of the two non-industrial AC power supplies to our homes and shops in the US. The actual number is not that important to me as long as my lights light and my WiFi wifis.

BTW, for those wanting to be precise the target current supply voltage standard for single phase power is indeed 120/240, but the allowable supply voltage is 114 to 126, range A according to ANSI-C84.1-2011. Range B values are 110 to 127 volts. Based on that, one could be correct to say 110 volt power is still around in 2017. :)

370398

FWIW, I believe electric motor name plate specifications are different, 115/230. Every single phase electrical motor nameplate I checked in my shop meets this specification.

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

Particularly 220. I have never heard anyone refer to it as 240. Ever.
But that's how minds work.
Every adjustable wrench is a Crescent wrench.
Every tissue is a Kleenex
Motorcycles have motors when they have in fact an internal combustion engine.
Sometimes it must take a couple or 3 generations for these things to work their way out of out vocabulary. Some perhaps never.

[Bill Jobe]

Well I've always been confused by it. But I just went along with it thinking if I asked I'd look like an idiot. That's something I try to guard.....my stupidity.
This time I'm being honest about it and admitting I had no idea why all the confusing numbers.
Thanks for clearing it up for me.

[Jim Becker]

Particularly 220. I have never heard anyone refer to it as 240. Ever.

Interestingly, that's the only way I ever refer to it in conversation or here. :) I'm anal like that... :D

[Bill Dufour]

Well I did slowly lose one phase of the power to my house. I measured it at 120 and the low side was under 75 volts. When the power company came out he used his expensive meter and it was 120 and under 15 by then. it was a bad fuse on the pole. It was interesting to see the incandescent lights slowly dim to yellow over the course of several minutes.
Bill D.

[Bill Jobe]

Interestingly, that's the only way I ever refer to it in conversation or here. :) I'm anal like that... :D

Nothing wrong with that.
Mine's 's plurals 😕

[Bill Jobe]

What would a person expect to pay for this job.
I've bought all the pieces including a new panel to replace the one in the house and going to put the old one in the shed.
It will now be sitting about 3 feet from my attached garage where I already have 240. I want lots of plug-ins for 120 and at least 4 240 outlets.
I plan to have most of the 120 plugins placed 3 feet or so above the floor for ease of use. Maybe the 240s as well.
Job would include lots of overhead lights.
Just a ballpark figure.

[John K Jordan]

What would a person expect to pay for this job.
I've bought all the pieces including a new panel to replace the one in the house and going to put the old one in the shed.
It will now be sitting about 3 feet from my attached garage where I already have 240. I want lots of plug-ins for 120 and at least 4 240 outlets.
I plan to have most of the 120 plugins placed 3 feet or so above the floor for ease of use. Maybe the 240s as well.
Job would include lots of overhead lights.
Just a ballpark figure.

I have NO idea about the cost of hiring it (I did all my electrical myself including the underground). But I do have a comment about the electrical box. Electrical breaker panels are so cheap (relatively) that I would just by a new one for the shop. That way you can get one that fits your needs without compromises in mounting and slots. An old panel may have knockouts of various sizes removed were you don't need them removed, etc. A new box will be cleaner to work with and the electrician will appreciate that. With new boxes you also don't have to let the upgrade in the house affect the time schedule of the shop wiring. In hauling in a portable building for my little beekeeping house I bought new boxes for both the pole and the building although I already had some old boxes - I decided it would be it was easier to start from scratch.

I mounted many of my outlets at 42" or higher. People who do flatwork suggest above 48" so they can lean sheet goods against the wall but I don't even HAVE that much spare wall space! I put some outlets low where appropriate and some in the ceiling for pull-down power reels. I also wired certain outlets near the each lathe (and mill, metal lathe) that are switched by a conveniently mounted wall switch. These outlets only power task lighting fixtures above and around the machines. It is so nice to flip on one switch as all the lights at the lathe come on at once. (Several small positionable lights are far better than diffuse overhead lighting, especially at the wood lathe. (IMO)

For a rough idea of the cost make a list of every outlet, switch, and light fixture you want wired, and the number of each kind of circuit and ask at least three electricians. I would also provide a floor plan with the locations of the breaker box, switches and outlets as well as where the power is coming from in the garage and whether it is stretched in the air or underground (recommended). On the floor plan draw where each machine will be placed to determine where to put the outlets and the light fixtures. You need to do this detailed planning anyway (and soon) so you aren't sorely disappointed about something you forgot to consider. I think some electricians charge a certain amount per outlet, whether switch or receptacle, plus materials, and they should be able to quickly estimate or bid the job. Getting three bids might tell you if one is way out of line.

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

Thank you much for the suggestions, JKJ.