Best way to assemble face frames made with pocket holes?

[andy photenas]

Hello all, I would like to know what is the best way to assemble face frames made with pocket holes ?

Really I'm asking about how people go about clamping them so you don't need a lot of sanding after.

I am a one man shop and atm I use mortise and tenon to build them but I need to learn to make my turn around time faster and I think changing to the proper method to make face frames with pocket holes would be a lot faster.

[George Bokros]

Kreg face frame clamps or better a Kreg clamp table.

[Martin Wasner]

The Kreg and Castle face frame tables have two problems. Too small, and too lightly built.

I have a Unique Machine brand 5x12 table like this (http://www.uniquemachine.com/079.html#) I wish they would've put a bit more bracing in that as well. The corner that gets used the most is starting to get a bit spongy.

I paid $1200 for mine used when the sky was falling in 08' or 09'. I haven't paid attention to what they sell for nowadays.

Ritter used to make a nice one as well, I just prefer the Unique Machine one.

You can get them as a combo where they work as a door clamp too.


Also, the only way to effectively make pocket screw pockets is a Castle Machine. I've used most others, the Castle is the best. They can be found used in reasonably good shape for $1200 - $1500

[Warren Lake]

mortise and tennon like it was done for 1000 years

[Martin Wasner]

mortise and tennon like it was done for 1000 years

Glue has changed massively in the last 20 years though Warren.

[Lee Schierer]

I use the vise grip style face frame clamps that came with my drilling jig. I place the large pad on the face that shows and have never had an alignment problem. I set them to clamp up really hard.

[Warren Lake]

the playing field was level till the gizmo guys came along you buy our gizmo you save time we dont care about craft we sell gizmos and make more than you do. When I see kitchens advertised as high end high quality and and I see stuff thats not even made the way it was made. my views are not popular I know old guy said along time ago quality went down with the industrial revolution and id agree with that. Just ignore me sometimes I can stop myself from talking :)

[Larry Edgerton]

the playing field was level till the gizmo guys came along you buy our gizmo you save time we dont care about craft we sell gizmos and make more than you do. When I see kitchens advertised as high end high quality and and I see stuff thats not even made the way it was made. my views are not popular I know old guy said along time ago quality went down with the industrial revolution and id agree with that. Just ignore me sometimes I can stop myself from talking :)

I have to side with you, although I do use modern glue. With M&T of course......

Dinosaurs, thats what we are, extinction is eminent.

[michael dilday]

I made a plywood clamp board with plywood strips about 1.5" wide squared on two sides. Put the two pieces of the face frame on it, a little glue, clamp it down with Kreg face clamps on the joint to hold them flush and put the screws in. Built my entire kitchen that way. Now I have the Kreg clamp table with the bench clamps and that works better.

[Pat Barry]

the playing field was level till the gizmo guys came along you buy our gizmo you save time we dont care about craft we sell gizmos and make more than you do. When I see kitchens advertised as high end high quality and and I see stuff thats not even made the way it was made. my views are not popular I know old guy said along time ago quality went down with the industrial revolution and id agree with that. Just ignore me sometimes I can stop myself from talking :)
For a face frame pocket screws are just fine.

[Cary Falk]

I use the clamp that you use to hold the jig to keep the faces even. I put the other clamp that fits in the pocket hold to keep it from sliding the other way. Put a screw in the empty hole. Remove the clamp in the other hole and put in the screw. I don't have a bench large for some of my stuff so it works for me. Probably not the quickest though.

[scott vroom]

the playing field was level till the gizmo guys came along you buy our gizmo you save time we dont care about craft we sell gizmos and make more than you do. When I see kitchens advertised as high end high quality and and I see stuff thats not even made the way it was made. my views are not popular I know old guy said along time ago quality went down with the industrial revolution and id agree with that. Just ignore me sometimes I can stop myself from talking :)

The first mortise and tenon was a gizmo to the craftsmen who used tule reed to tie joints together. It's called progress. I'm guessing the first mortise and tenon guys would have given their left n_t to have pocket screws.

Pocket screws and glue are fine for FF's.

[J.R. Rutter]

I have a bench with about 3" of overhang and a nice old Jorgenson C clamp. Apply glue to end grain with finger, reapply after 30 seconds, align joints, clamp, screw. For frames that have multiple openings I cut spacers from scrap rips and use some K-bodies to snug the divider up to the end with spacers on each side. I just rotate the frame to access all the joints with the clamp. I've had to break apart a few frames over the years, and even with end grain, wood is breaking not the glue joint.

Agree that Castle machines are nice. I have the old Porter Cable made by Castle and it is about perfect for doing a couple of frames. For big jobs, the pneumatic version is great.

[Bill Dufour]

I see the laminated melanimne plywood flat panel frameless kitchen cabinets and I wonder when did the pressed steel cabinets go out of style? They were in my 1950 duplex and no worse then modern cheap HD cabinets made of particle board.
Bill

[peter gagliardi]

I don't use pocket screws very often anymore, I have moved higher end, and do mortise and tenon mostly now. However, before I got the mortisers and tenoners, I did almost exactly like J.R. describes- edge of bench with a Bessey clamp for probably 15 years.
The issue with kitchen cabinets is that they are no longer considered an integral part of the home. They are changed out and tossed almost as often as rooms get repainted. This of course feeds the mentality that they only need to be "good enough" to last 5-10-15 years.
Most people are shopping price over quality, and small shops need to adapt or starve, feeding into the lowering of quality, thus the kitchen doesn't last, thus leading to replacement , etc....

I do not think however that as Martin says, that glues have gotten much better in the last 20 years. We have had aliphatic resins and PVA type glues for over a century, and Hide glue has been shown to last a few thousand years!
That is a moot point in my opinion.
Any time there is a race to the bottom on price points, quality levels, or sometimes perceived and real quality of construction will suffer.

[glenn bradley]

The OP was asking how to get a good pocket hole joint, not for an alternate method :)

I just use this (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kreg-3-5-in-Clamp/1000105667). If your stock mates square and true there is often no follow up work. Clamping the show face true is your main goal. To up your speed in production the various fixed clamps and tables can certainly help.

[Sam Murdoch]

My technique is to clamp hard to a table. A clamp on both pieces that will be connected. I also at times need to use a version of the quick claims as Glenn shows above in the link but I find that the pocket screw - regardless of the accuracy of my joinery - invariably wants to pull the two pieces very slightly out of alignment. I don't want to do extra sanding either so I use glue and clamp so that my two pieces simply can't move by the force of the angled screw.

To the philosophical question raised about M&T or pocket screws, I can't justify the added time to use M&T joints on plywood cabinets. I will for solid wood pieces but not your basic vanity or kitchen cab. Just my 2¢.

[Jim Becker]

I use the vise grip style face frame clamps that came with my drilling jig. I place the large pad on the face that shows and have never had an alignment problem. I set them to clamp up really hard.
Same for me. It's the only way I build face frames at this point and any sanding is for finish, rather than alignment.

[Warren Lake]

My Rockwell sander was made in USA its still going strong, same with the old Senco. You guys made great tools. One of them went to china and they all jumped on the band wagon. The same sander now is probably half what I paid for it almost 40 years ago. If they didnt jump on the band wagon and were all in the US still the price would be higher and people would still buy the stuff. Maybe even joe home owner would be discouraged to get into weekend warrior build stuff and more work for people making a living doing it. I get the price thing and the throw away society. I worked with Musicians for years before a pro would ever even consider lip syncing. im an equal opportunity dinasour view guy.

My fault for bringing it up and taking things sideways apologies on that. Hey Larry maybe ill bump into you one day out feeding in the field and we can talk about the old days, that is if the field isnt a new subdivision of little box garage out front homes so close together you cant fit your lawn between them okay got to go see the therapist. :)

[Martin Wasner]

I don't use pocket screws very often anymore, I have moved higher end, and do mortise and tenon mostly now.


Prepare for sarcasm.... I work mostly the low end of things. You know, the poor people who can't afford a $150,000 Porsche SUV and the extra $4000 in labor on their cabinets going in their dumpy little million to two million dollar homes....




If it were a chair, it'd be dumb, bordering on negligent to use pocket screws. But a face frame is pretty low stress and has all the structure of the carcass holding it in place. I've busted up plenty of incorrectly sized and pocket screwed face frames out of anger. They don't come apart nicey nice. A rail glued into a stile will pull a good part of the stile with it, even with the screws removed. I don't know how you could ask much more from a joint.

At the end of the day, you have to make ends meet. I can't charge an extra 10% for something a customer isn't going to ever know about. The next guy will do it for less, and I'm already on the upper end of the spectrum. There's no reason not to set up for production, if you're trying to produce. If you can do mortise and tenon and make it pay, awesome. I'd price myself out of my market, which is already way to finite, and I wouldn't be able to keep up with the pace of houses being built.

There's certainly applications for hide glue. Like instrument building. But I haven't found Titebond Original to be lacking for anything involving interior trim or cabinetry work in the normal applications. You can't tell me hide glue was as consistent in quality when it was time to slaughter bessie for more glue than it is today either. Don't use the odd examples as the mean.

[Warren Lake]

Hey Martin

dont let me phase you. If you saw some of my reno work you would think I need to be committed like cutting my rafter tails all straight and in line for 60 feet before I put the new facia on that i made out of 16 foot material lamelled end to end epoxied and painted

Ive seen the car thing endless times 200k on cars then it stops. Hey, people see me out in my car. My friend had 7 porsches in his shop recently and not one commoners car. Ive asked before can they drive that well and the answer is always no.

I also see people getting sales cause they have this image and are spoken of as gods all the warm and fuzzy and they sell cause of that. I hear shop owners say they, (people dont care) but dont think its that simple if you dont tell them they wont know, once you do then wont care :) My statement still does hold true though if the next guy did it as it was done you would all be on the same field. its not a judgement ive told you I like your work and I respect your never ending quest for faster and the detail you can quote how much that rail took to make or cost you have it to a science. that was how the old guy ran. 1000 dressers then 150 extra ones, funny how that is but at that level its to a science. In the last years at the main home show ive watched two companies from China to four follwing year to six to eight to ten. now they are over a third of all that is shown there and increasing. I feel for the several that are there that did very nice work, their playing field is getting polluted as well. What was the best they can do is the best they can do if they can get that, more so its becoming what they can do to compete, that was never there before. I feel for them and the 100 plus shops that have gone down in the last years.

[Jim Becker]

It's great that we all have options for how we individually might do something. But the OP asked a specific "how" relative to pocket hole joinery with face frames and the discussion has gone in a different and, um...rather passionate...direction. Whatever method you personally use for this operation is great. But the answer to the actual question comes down to how the workpieces are clamped.

Jim
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