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Dan Mages
09-14-2017, 10:00 PM
Theoretical question here. :rolleyes:

Lets say LOML has been offered a very prestigious job to represent her industry. Now she needs to provide notice to her current employer. A seed has been planted in her that if she mentions the new job, that she will be terminated effective immediately. The complicating factor is that she is due in a couple months. We cannot lose the income or insurance. To her credit, she is well respected and liked in her company and has a long history glowing job reviews. In my opinion, this will destroy morale at the office. It is unlikely that the new company would start her early as they will then need to give her maternity leave.

Given this theoretical situation:
1. Has anyone seen a person walked out for providing notice?
2. Any recourse she could pursue?
3. Any thoughts on how to handle such a situation?

Bruce Page
09-14-2017, 10:49 PM
My daughter was a bookkeeper at Whole Foods for 8 years. Glowing reviews, well liked. She gave 2 weeks notice and was shown the door that day. Her recourse was returning to school and is now a RN.
I always gave 2 weeks notice but loyalties in both directions are much different today. I would ask myself what I have to gain vs. what I have to lose.

Congrats to your wife on the baby and the new job.

Sam Force
09-14-2017, 11:34 PM
They will walk her out ASAP, she would be offered COBRA insurance at a substantial price but would be needed

Nicholas Lawrence
09-15-2017, 6:14 AM
It really depends on the industry/employer. Some have security requirements that will not allow them to have a person with access to information that that has given notice. Government, health care, law, etc., may fall in that category.

Jerry Bruette
09-15-2017, 6:21 AM
About a 18 months ago I gave a two week notice at work in the same meeting as I received the glowing review. They didn't walk me out. They picked my brain for two weeks and I left on good terms and on the rehire list. New job didn't offer insurance for 60 days, I purchased COBRA, which was about $30 a month more than a policy on the open market. But I only dealt with two deductibles that year.

Fast forward seven months. New job wasn't as sparkly and glittery any more and the old employer hadn't filled my opening. So I called them up and they took me back, and because I was gone less than 12 months I retained all my benefits and seniority plus got a $3 an hour raise.

I'm glad I did the right thing and gave notice. There's no sense in not giving notice, don't hold a grudge or leave with a chip on your shoulder, or burn any bridges.

I would also check the rules on FMLA, federal and for your state. That's what will govern her maternity leave. There might be some clause about being employed for a certain length of time with an employer in order to receive FMLA from them.

As Bruce said what have you got to gain or lose by giving or not giving notice.

John K Jordan
09-15-2017, 7:39 AM
Is the plan to give a standard 2-week notice? I think I would immediately go into "emergency mode" and sacrificially save every penny, delaying the job switch a bit if that is possible. The thought of losing a few weeks of pay may be scary but just a tiny bump in the road in the big picture. If she isn't terminated when giving notice you will have a nice little bit saved.

As others mentioned, the Cobra insurance offer is supposed to be guaranteed. When my wife and I both retired be bought Cobra insurance for our disabled son. I had heard it was horribly expensive but it wasn't.

JKJ

Lee Schierer
09-15-2017, 8:29 AM
Some companies do walk employees out when they give notice others do not. If they walk her out, they owe her any accumulated vacation pay. She would also be eligible for unemployment compensation. Recourse is a chancey thing as it may hinder her chances at future jobs because she may not be able to use the current company as a reference down the road. They may also make her a counter offer if she is valuable to them.

Chris Damm
09-15-2017, 8:33 AM
At the only job I ever quit, I observed people giving notice and being escorted off the property. When I decided to leave I gave 15 minutes notice and that gave me time to load my tools.

George Bokros
09-15-2017, 8:34 AM
Does this organization / company that has made this prestigious job offer know she is pregnant and due in a few months? If so, they should know she would be on maternity in a few months. If they do not know she is pregnant she needs to have the conversation with them regarding the issue to find out their thoughts and get a commitment from them regarding the issue. Once that is settled then the two of you need to decide how the maternity costs would be covered. In years past her current employer's health insurance would be on the hook for the cost but with the advent of COBRA I am not sure how that all plays together. She may be required to sign up for COBRA. If I recall correctly a company can charge up to 20% more than their out of pocket cost for the health insurance under COBRA to cover their administrative cost.

I am retired now and was not a human resource professional, I was finance, but had some involvement with HR issues and management.

It never hurts to leave a position on good terms, you may need a job reference in the future or maybe even be offered a new position in the future with that company / employer.

Al Launier
09-15-2017, 9:15 AM
Some companies do walk employees out when they give notice others do not. If they walk her out, they owe her any accumulated vacation pay. She would also be eligible for unemployment compensation. Recourse is a chancey thing as it may hinder her chances at future jobs because she may not be able to use the current company as a reference down the road. They may also make her a counter offer if she is valuable to them.

What Lee stated.

glenn bradley
09-15-2017, 9:21 AM
1. Has anyone seen a person walked out for providing notice?
- Yes. I work in a field where we have access to sensitive materials. One of my employees made the mistake of telling me he was going to quit to return to school in 4 months. He thought he was doing me a favor but, I had to terminate him immediately.
2. Any recourse she could pursue?
- Yes. These are often expensive and unpleasant in my experience but, we did have to pay nearly a year in back salary to someone who "succeeded" once. It took just shy of three years to reach that agreement.
3. Any thoughts on how to handle such a situation?
- Unless otherwise stipulated in any agreement she signed when accepting the position, simply stay on the job and stay mute till two weeks before she is going to leave, then give two weeks notice.

I always leave on good terms; even the one job I've had that I really hated. That being said, I have only returned to an employer once after working for another but, those were different times.

Dan Friedrichs
09-15-2017, 10:11 AM
This depends so strongly on the job and employer, there is no sense in guessing what will happen in any given situation. A guy I worked with gave 2 weeks' notice, and the boss said, "Well, you'll need some time to job hunt, so I'll keep paying you the next 2 weeks, but I don't expect you to show up more than is absolutely necessary to transfer some things". Others get walked to the door immediately.

Michael Weber
09-15-2017, 10:42 AM
Hard to predict. Company I worked for would accept notice or not depending on what they thought of the employee. One employee in my department only gave 1/2 days notice. Manager told him to get his stuff and leave immediately. Others give two weeks and that's accepted. If the job has responsibilities I'd give adequate notice, hope for the best and as another poster notes, prepare for the worst.

Jim Becker
09-15-2017, 10:43 AM
Different employers and difference circumstances clearly affect whether someone is allowed to work out their time after giving notice or if they are immediately "shown the door". I've seen this go both ways and as has been mentioned, the nature of the work and workplace culture is very much part of this. Someone leaving to join a competitor is almost always terminated immediately; sometimes with pay through the notice period and sometimes not. But even there it's not a given. My older daughter was working for one supermarket in town and on her own found a better position at another market down the street. She "did the right thing" and gave two weeks notice. We thought she's be canned immediately, but because she stood up for herself to the general manager and provided verifiable evidence that other employees and managers were not treating her with respect, she was allowed to work out her two weeks and retain that income...and that was even a "handling money" position since she was a cashier at the time. With my current employer, most folks get to work out their notice period if they are leaving for a job that's not with a direct competitor. That provides the best transition opportunities. I personally gave notice well over a month ago, but my situation is difference because I'm retiring. :)

So the bottom line is really around the culture of the current employer as well as if her leaving is for "someplace different" or "someplace competitive". I do understand the concern about benefits and that absolutely has to be part of the decision. As to recourse for being "shown the door", it might be very tough because unless she is an employee that is covered under some form of contract, most positions in the US are an "at will" arrangement where either the employee or employer can terminate the relationship at any time and for any reason other than a very short list of discriminatory practices which are generally hard to prove. So it's best to move on if it happens unless there's a clear and evidentiary situation of a covered discrimination situation within the law.

Steve Peterson
09-15-2017, 11:16 AM
At my company you might be walked to the door immediately if you mention that you will be working for a competitor. I am not sure if you would still get paid for those 2 weeks. However, there is nothing forcing you to mention the new company name. One senior manager gave notice saying he was leaving for personal reasons and to focus on his family. He worked until the end of the month, then immediately started working at a competitor.

Also at my company, medical premiums are paid at the 1st of the month. If you give notice on the 1st, you would be covered until the 31st. If you give notice on the 31st and they walk you to the door, your coverage might terminate that day. The law requires Cobra to be offered for up to 6 months. You would be on the hook for the premiums.

Steve

Dan Mages
09-15-2017, 11:24 AM
It is a sticky situation for sure. The situation would be like senior partner at a law firm being offered a position as a judge or some other government appointment.

The ideal plan is to work until maternity leave, give notice, return for a day, and then walk out. What is technically correct, legally correct, and ethically/morally correct can vary and contradict each other.

Luckily she is invaluable in her current role. I would personally say that letting her go in this theoretical situation would be cutting of their nose to spite their face. Not to mention the bad optics of terminating a pregnant employee with strong relations throughput the company and is constantly ranked in the top 5% of employees corporate wide.

Nicholas Lawrence
09-15-2017, 12:20 PM
She would also be eligible for unemployment compensation.

In some states you are not eligible for unemployment if you leave voluntarily. I have no idea how Connecticut handles things. Also, not all employees are eligible for unemployment in some states, and I don't think we know what she does for a living.

If you are really concerned about her rights, you should be talking to someone who knows how things work in your state. A lawyer might be a good choice, but there might be counselors at whatever state department handles labor issues who could help as well.

George Bokros
09-15-2017, 12:38 PM
The law requires Cobra to be offered for up to 6 months. You would be on the hook for the premiums.

Steve

I believe COBRA must offered for 18 months, at least it was to me when I left.

David L Morse
09-15-2017, 1:11 PM
This forum is visible to anyone with internet access so she may not need to give formal notice, especially if one of her coworkers is also a woodworker.

Rod Sheridan
09-15-2017, 2:44 PM
Life's a lot different depending upon where you live.

Where I live your healthcare coverage has nothing to do with your employment, if you reside here, you have coverage. I guess my comment is I have no advice that would be useful in this area.

As for notice, I would give notice, then the employer can decide if they want to keep you until your last day of notice, or ask you to leave immediately and pay you until the end of your notice period.

Rod

Andrew Pitonyak
09-15-2017, 2:47 PM
Step 1: Look at her employment contract. it may state that you need to give two weeks notice.

Where I work, if I put in two weeks notice, they would do a brain transfer and work me like a dog for two weeks before I left. They might even make a counter-offer.

If there is some uncertainty, I would say nothing until the the required time to do so. I have seen people walked out very quickly after putting in their notice. For the most part, this has been petty stupidity because the manager was simply angry that the person was leaving. If I leave on my own terms, then walking me out is just plain dumb. If I wanted to do something to the system, I would do it before putting in my notice. If i am terminated not by my choice, they almost always walk you out the door; although I have seen people given a few weeks notice, but this is the exception.

I have seen people give their two weeks notice just before they take off for two weeks vacation.

If there is real concern, then speak with a lawyer before putting in your notice.

Stan Calow
09-15-2017, 3:54 PM
Something that hasn't been mentioned is that failing to give two weeks notice might result in an unfavorable reference in the future.

Jerome Stanek
09-15-2017, 9:04 PM
At the company I worked for one guy gave a 2 day notice and they said ok we will get you your final check in 2 days. He said no I said i am giving you my today notice and will be gone at quitting time

Mel Fulks
09-15-2017, 9:32 PM
I got fired once at a shop that was always chaotic. They kindly listed my faults. But I had already heard from others that the previous guy wanted to come back. Told the owner "I'll pack up and leave now". Then he asked me if I would work a few more days! I laid out several conditions for that and he agreed.

Bruce Wrenn
09-15-2017, 10:03 PM
Something that hasn't been mentioned is that failing to give two weeks notice might result in an unfavorable reference in the future.Most companies will only verify that you worked for them, and what dates. Nothing more, nothing less, to CYA. An unfavorable review sets law suits in motion.

Larry Frank
09-16-2017, 7:30 AM
In this day, I would not post a question like this on social media with my name and location. Too many companies monitor social media. On other sites where you are not required to post your name it would be OK.

Am I over cautious.....probably.

Jason Roehl
09-16-2017, 8:56 AM
I have seen people give their two weeks notice just before they take off for two weeks vacation.



That wouldn't work at my place of employment, sort of--separation date is last day actually worked.

That said, accrued vacation and comp time get paid out at separation, but sick time does not. They recently cracked down on comp time because those close to retirement were banking a bunch of it to get an extra fat check when they hung it up, causing an annual labor cost nightmare (earned at one income level in one year, paid out at a higher level years down the road due to COLA increases). Vacation can only be banked to 50% greater than the annual allotment--I get 10 days/year, so I can accrue up to 15 before accrual stops and I miss out. Those with >20 years service get 25 days, so they can bank 37.5 days vacation. Comp time gets automatically paid at something like 240 hours, I think--I've only managed to accrue about 40-50 at one time, because I use it for random days off, "spring fever" type days. I get 12 sick days/year, and can bank up to 66--in just over 2 years, I have yet to call-in, but I do use a little here and there for dentist appointments and the like. And 3 days for oral surgery back in January (should have used more!), so I'm sitting on about 22 days already--saving them for a day when I may need surgery on a shoulder or something like that. If I max out, I don't care--I'd rather be seen as dependable, than always calling in sick.

Jim Becker
09-16-2017, 9:02 AM
Jason, as an aside, my employer no longer offers "vacation" in the traditional sense...that takes it off the books from an accounting standpoint and they don't have to accrue it. (carryover died years ago..."use it or lose it" had been the case for quite a few years) Now, folks get DTO..."discretionary time off". In other words, you can take off as much or as little as you want as long as you are doing your job (and hopefully exceeding goals) and it doesn't affect customers or the team in a negative way. We do have to mark the days in the time keeping system (the only thing we mark since we are all considered salaried for our base pay) but there's no "vacation". The upside to this system is that it's very flexible for the employee. The downside is that many employees tend to forget to take time off... ;) ...myself included. Of course, I'm leaving that behind in, oh...two weeks. :)

Stan Calow
09-16-2017, 10:02 AM
Most companies will only verify that you worked for them, and what dates. Nothing more, nothing less, to CYA. An unfavorable review sets law suits in motion.

HR people tell me that they can also ask and answer the question "would this person be eligible for re-hire", yes or no.

Rich Engelhardt
09-16-2017, 10:28 AM
Given this theoretical situation:
1. Has anyone seen a person walked out for providing notice?
2. Any recourse she could pursue?
3. Any thoughts on how to handle such a situation?I gave two weeks notice at a place I worked on a Monday morning. On Wednesday I was called into the head guy's office to discuss why I was leaving.(the other place pretty much doubled my pay---so--no brainer..)
At the end of the "exit interview", the head guy told me to just go ahead and pick up whatever I had at my desk/workstation and take off. I tried to make the rounds and say goodbye to people, but, I was told I was to leave - ASAP.
They did pay me for the rest of the week - more like they let me take the two and a half days as vacation, but, I didn't get paid for the other vacation days I had coming.


I didn't take offense or anything at being asked to leave. I'd been at other places where people that gave notice were just told to leave so it wasn't a big deal.
Plus, the other place that hired me was fine with me starting a week early! <--which meant I started making more money a week sooner:).

The place I was asked to leave above though is the only place that actually told me to leave. Other places I was expected to work out the two weeks.
Also - quite a few other people I worked with there had not been told to leave after giving notice, so, it seems the policy was--sort of iffy.

Weird part is - I was gone from there for 2 years, and they turned around and asked me to come back! I did and stayed there till I retired!

LOL! Go figure!

Perry Hilbert Jr
09-16-2017, 11:18 AM
It depends on the job, the access to information, the employee's rapport with the supervisors and a host of things. I had the misfortune to discover that I was working for a "sinking ship" The owner was juggling the books to keep the place afloat, I had substantial bonuses coming and was worried that I would not receive them. Since the company was going under anyway, I copied all the computer files of the jobs I worked, expecting that I would be shown the door any day and immediately if I gave notice. I also copied company books, showing the owner was defrauding the customers. Turns out he didn't pay the health ins, withholding taxes, unemployment or anything else for several months. I went to a job interview and I was hired to start in two weeks. I was very closed mouth about things because I did not want to be shafted on the bonuses if I could help it. Well I gave notice as soon as I got to the office, I was escorted to the door, waited while they packed my personal belongings in a box, I was handed a no trespassing notice and a lock smith was there changing the locks within 15 minutes of my giving notice. I immediately submitted change of address letters to those companies for whom I had done work, and some of them sent me the checks. The boss still stiffed me out of about $15,000 in bonuses more than what I collected. Ironically, a few months after starting the new job, my task, was to file papers to sheriff sale the former boss. Since I knew where everything was, the bank accounts and knew who owed him money. I tied him up so bad, even his car was repo'd. He was out of business and closed in six months and then prosecuted for tax evasion. I managed to take a dozen or more customers with me. (My former coworkers also left en mass within a week when their pay checks bounced.)

OTH, three years earlier, I left a job I had for 15 years. I gave two weeks notice. I ended up putting in all kinds of late hours making sure that everything went smoothly after I departed. On the last day, the boss came in and handed me a century old $50 gold piece and told me any time I wanted to come back. I get invites to the office Christmas parties every December. The boss at that job and I are still friends and go fishing every summer.

I guess the point is, if the employee is trusted and well liked, they are less likely to boot the employee immediately. If there is a lot of distrust between employees and management, you get the "bum's rush"

Dan Mages
09-16-2017, 8:27 PM
Jason, as an aside, my employer no longer offers "vacation" in the traditional sense...that takes it off the books from an accounting standpoint and they don't have to accrue it. (carryover died years ago..."use it or lose it" had been the case for quite a few years) Now, folks get DTO..."discretionary time off". In other words, you can take off as much or as little as you want as long as you are doing your job (and hopefully exceeding goals) and it doesn't affect customers or the team in a negative way. We do have to mark the days in the time keeping system (the only thing we mark since we are all considered salaried for our base pay) but there's no "vacation". The upside to this system is that it's very flexible for the employee. The downside is that many employees tend to forget to take time off... ;) ...myself included. Of course, I'm leaving that behind in, oh...two weeks. :)

My wife's employer went the same route. The other downside is that you are at the discretion of your manager. Some might not be so kind to you taking more than a few days off.

Curt Harms
09-17-2017, 8:26 AM
Most companies will only verify that you worked for them, and what dates. Nothing more, nothing less, to CYA. An unfavorable review sets law suits in motion.

There could be something verbal of which there is no record in addition to the formal verification. It depends on the business, some are rather closely knit.

roger wiegand
09-17-2017, 9:05 AM
I've always found employees leaving on short notice to be incredibly unprofessional and irritating. I understand that it can happen if a great opportunity opens up, but as a matter of course I'd prefer to have as much notice as possible. Ideally I'd try to re-fill a position before the current occupant of the job left, providing a week to a couple of months transition time to get everything transferred to the new person and any required training done in an orderly fashion. It's a fact of life that people move around as opportunities present themselves and in a small industry like mine (biotech) you certainly don't want to burn any bridges, as you will likely be working together again at some time in the future.

I would regard someone who took a few months of paid maternity/paternity leave and then quit on the day they returned to take a new job as exploiting the system. I'd much rather they be upfront about their intentions and negotiate a suitable separation package and, again, allow an orderly transition to a new person. I have had folks who decide to stay at home with their new child rather than return to work; I understand how that might happen. In those cases they were usually very helpful in finding and training a replacement and we made it work for everyone.

Brian Elfert
09-17-2017, 9:47 AM
Most companies looking for a new employee don't want to wait a month or two for the new hire to transition out of their old job. The only time it happens at my employer is if someone is retiring. My employer usually has three to six months notice so there is time to hire and train a replacement.

It is not unusual in IT for someone to be shown the door as soon as they give notice. The employer doesn't want the employee to have an opportunity to sabotage IT systems before they leave. Most companies I have heard that do this will pay through the notice date. A small business locally had one of three partners decide to take over and fired most of the employees. The fired employees wiped out most of the computer systems on the way out the door and refused to hand over any passwords.

Frederick Skelly
09-17-2017, 10:13 AM
I would regard someone who took a few months of paid maternity/paternity leave and then quit on the day they returned to take a new job as exploiting the system.

I agree with you Roger. If the new job offer came in after the maternity leave started, that might be a little different. But IMO, if the family knows she's leaving and are just holding on to get the paid time off, that's stretching the bounds of reasonable.

Dan, it wouldnt be unreasonable to talk with the new employer about this. Make it part of their hiring negotiations, perhaps? Say something like: "Hey, I can't be without income or insurance while I'm out on maternity leave. And I don't feel right quitting my current job right after I come back to work. Is there any possibility that I could come work for you now, and take the leave while I'm working for you? I'd be willing to sign a contract to guarantee a minimum period that I will work for you after returning to protect your interests. Otherwise, I have to decline." (Companies that offer tuition assistance have such policies/contracts. Maybe something similar is possible here.)

And if they cant work it out, she stays put - keeping her current job, her "good name" and her self respect intact. She sounds like a valuable employee with a great history of performance. There will always be another opportunity for top notch people like her.

Just another viewpoint to consider. :)

Best wishes to you and your family.
Fred

Brian Henderson
09-17-2017, 1:04 PM
It depends on the company. As others have said, some companies have security concerns and once you put in your notice, you become a security risk and are no longer allowed on the property. The last job I quit, the company did that, but they also paid the two weeks to avoid me having a case at unfair termination and an unemployment claim. I knew that up front, so I quit on Friday, knowing my new job started on Monday and I'd be getting those two weeks paid, plus all of my back vacation, etc.

Edwin Santos
09-17-2017, 1:20 PM
I think you should get some independent advice. Personally, I would not go to a lawyer, instead I'd try to find a qualified HR professional in your state. A friend,or a friend of a friend will know someone who is a HR director that attends lots of conferences and continuing education on employer laws and employee rights. In my experience people like this are happy to help provide guidance. He/she will need a copy of your wife's employer's policies if they have an employee handbook or guideline packet. It's a complicated situation. A lot of it depends on the outgoing employer's attitude.

Matt Day
09-18-2017, 8:44 AM
I agree that you should check the employee handbook first. It should discuss this.

I worked for a few of the largest construction companies in the country building healthcare facilities. Each time I quit I gave almost a month notice so the regional managers could find a replacement and I could train them, download everything, and make a smooth transition. They appreciated the heads up, but didn't get a replacement in until after I left!

Tough call with a pregnancy. If she feels she deserves it and has worked long enough for it, maybe take the leave and give them notice when she returns.

John Sanford
09-19-2017, 3:47 PM
Lets say LOML has been offered a very prestigious job to represent her industry

THIS is a wrinkle that hasn't been examined yet. "Representing her industry" means it's going to be a job that's highly dependent on image. Assuming that the new job is with an industry association or such, it strikes me that keeping good relations all around would be pretty important. "Good relations" means doing things the traditional way, i.e. 2 weeks notice. If the current employer chooses to whack her immediately, well, tell her to keep that in mind when it comes time to steer folks towards different companies in her industry... ;)

John C Cox
09-23-2017, 3:31 PM
Its one thing to chew the fat over theoretical issues of "ethics" and "personal responsibility"....

Completely another issue to expose your family to ruin.

3-6 months without pay and insurance + a baby due at the same time = ruin.

That same expense and time is a small and heavily diluted inconvenience to the company - far from ruin... Just a write off on their taxes...

I think you already know what you have to do. And that means don't do the foolish thing. Don't intentionally expose your family to ruin and then wonder why it happened.

Matt Meiser
09-30-2017, 6:10 AM
Someone I know just gave a 2-week notice and was scolded by HR for not giving 4!

Jason Roehl
09-30-2017, 8:58 AM
Someone I know just gave a 2-week notice and was scolded by HR for not giving 4!

So they agreed to stay 2 more weeks? AAAAHAHAHAHA!