Sharpening tiny gouge

[David Ragan]

Hi,

Am at a point, where I need to sharpen this little bitty #11 Pfeil straight palm gouge.

The sides are about 1.5mm high-tiny, right?

The side was chipped out--so the moment I have put off forever is here-no more stropping/honing-the edge must be ground back straight (done), and then sharpened.

My question is.....since am using these small oilstones....I can't figure out whether the soft or harder would be the coarse or fine one.

The soft one would be equivalent of more coarse, right?

And-as far as creating another viable edge, make the tip flat, then treat like two separate chisels, right?




367857


Thanks

[Patrick Chase]

My question is.....since am using these small oilstones....I can't figure out whether the soft or harder would be the coarse or fine one.

The soft one would be equivalent of more coarse, right?

For natural oilstones, yes. Harder is generally finer.

For a synthetic stone it depends on what the maker does with the binders, though there are valid reasons why a manufacturer should choose softer (more friable) binder for coarse stones on the whole.

[Jim Koepke]

Patrick answered the question about coarousity. (don't you just love how words can be made up in English and are understandable and even useable?)

As to the method of sharpening I like to treat the tip of a gouge like a single edge to be worked. Any wide spots on the 'end flat' get worked more as the full edge is 'rolled' on the stone.

Mary May demonstrated a side to side sharpening method for gouges on The Woodwright's Shop. It is one of the methods that works for me.

If you do not find the answers you need here, you might try the Carving Forum.

jtk

[David Bassett]

I had to look up Pfeil #11. It's a steep U shape and you'll need to treat it as a single edge, as Jim says. (The #12 V tool could, mostly, be treated as two flat planes. Though you'd still need to clean up the junction some I expect.)

[Mel Fulks]

There are stones (seem to be mostly hard Arkansas ) that show up on ebay and have grooves and flutes . Description usually says they were made for dental tools. They don't bring much .

[Patrick Chase]

I had to look up Pfeil #11. It's a steep U shape and you'll need to treat it as a single edge, as Jim says. (The #12 V tool could, mostly, be treated as two flat planes. Though you'd still need to clean up the junction some I expect.)

Pfeil ("Swiss Made") gouges generally have sweep equivalent to one number higher in other manufacturers' lines. This is so because Pfeil designates carving skews as #1S and starts the gouges at #2, while other makers designate the skew as #2 and start the gouges at #3.

The Pfeil #11 is a veiner. Its profile isn't circular, though as David and Jim say it can't be sharpened like a V-tool either.

[James Pallas]

David, As I recall Mary May has some info and videos on the free part of her site. It could be helpful to check her site out.
Jim

[David Ragan]

I will have to go to Mary's site.

My larger #11 gouges are not V-shaped, but are indeed U-shaped.

The small one is so tiny, that practically speaking, I sharpened it as a "V"

[Matt Lau]

There are stones (seem to be mostly hard Arkansas ) that show up on ebay and have grooves and flutes . Description usually says they were made for dental tools. They don't bring much .

There's a whole bunch of dental sharpening stones--most of these are black Arkansas due to tradition.
They aren't worth a ton, but are specifically designed for instruments .5-1.5 mm in width.

The chisels and hoes are specifically designed to sheer/plane the loose enamel rods from the sides of Gold onlay preperations.
These aren't used much anymore (as most people move to ceramic), but are the best tool for the job sometimes.

[Keith Mathewson]

I just finished a weeklong carving class with Mary May. she mentioned that if you damage a small #11 you might as will go shopping since they are such a pain to try and sharpen.

[Patrick Chase]

I just finished a weeklong carving class with Mary May. she mentioned that if you damage a small #11 you might as will go shopping since they are such a pain to try and sharpen.

Hmm, I have a Pfeil #11 x 3 mm and it doesn't seem that difficult to hone.

I haven't done major damage to it so perhaps there's something I'm missing, but I don't see why it would be terribly hard to grind to the point where pitching the tool makes sense.

Mary May uses Pfeil, so we're definitely talking about the same tool.

[Keith Mathewson]

I cannot speak from experience but I have to wonder, if she's doing this for a living what is the time spent sharpening a damaged chisel worth versus buying a new one for $35 and getting on with the job

[Warren Mickley]

I just finished a weeklong carving class with Mary May. she mentioned that if you damage a small #11 you might as will go shopping since they are such a pain to try and sharpen.

I have used this type of gouge for forty years. I have also rehabilitated gouges for people who have sharpened them poorly. The problem is that they want to sharpen the gouge without having to look at the edge, going through the motions but not really thinking about what they are doing. You have to look at the edge, note which areas need more sharpening and which are already overdone, and then concentrate your abrasion on those areas that need it.

Get yourself a hand lens and study the edge, retain an image of the tool and translate that into how you are going to sharpen. As you sharpen check your progress by looking at the tool, so you don't overdo it in one spot. You want a 30 degree or so bevel all the way along the edge and you want it so that if the tool is vertical on the wood the edge just touches everywhere.

[Mel Fulks]

I have to compare this thread with the one on bad videos. Mary May has some talent and her gentle encouraging manner is appreciated. But that buy another one thing is way out. Mistakes are made even in the best movies.

[Patrick Chase]

I cannot speak from experience but I have to wonder, if she's doing this for a living what is the time spent sharpening a damaged chisel worth versus buying a new one for $35 and getting on with the job

It would surprise me greatly if her hourly opportunity cost (i.e. lost income from spending an hour on tool maintenance rather than other stuff) were all that different from other participants in this thread with day jobs.

My other comment is that the first few sharpenings of a new kind of tool seldom make sense economically. It takes time to learn after all. The real payoff comes in the long term. It almost sounds as though Mary may be evaluating cost/benefit over too short a horizon.

[David Ragan]

I just finished a weeklong carving class with Mary May. she mentioned that if you damage a small #11 you might as will go shopping since they are such a pain to try and sharpen.

After I had read a few replies, The oilstones were great @ creating a 90* perpendicular edge across the end of the tool-from which one could attempt to grind/hone a ~30* bevel.

However, it was too hard to (freehand on oil stone) create a consistent bevel on both sides of the tool. There is no sense of registration on the bevel w such a tiny tool when freehand sharpening.

So, I fired up the Tormek and everything worked out fine. The edge is good nuff for me; magnification showed decent geometry attained w the Tormek following basic prep using oil stones. And you'd be hard pressed to judge whether there was a hollow grind on such a small tool.

[george wilson]

The best way to sharpen a tiny carving tool,which I have done many,many times,is this: Grind off the end of the gouge square if a chunk has been broken off of it. Then,take the small India(the orange one) slip stone and hold it vertically,moving it straight up and down. Apply the gouge at a suitable angle to the stone and press it against the stone while rotating it in your fingers. I wear 4X drug store reading glasses while doing very small work. The highest magnification you can generally fine is 3.50 or 3.75 X. Probably can find 4X on Amazon. There is one pharmacy here that carries them. Called Professional Pharmacy. THE POINT IS: you need to be able to SEE what you're doing in small work. The 4X will greatly aid you. Optivisors don't magnify up to 4X as far as I know,and they bother me any way.

After you have stoned the bevel,until there is only a THIN edge of "light" to be seen all around the cutting edge,take your Arkansas stone,and repeat the process until that thin band of light,left by grinding the edge flat,is eliminated. Take a cut in wood every now and then,to eliminate burrs on the edge. Last,you may strop the edge.

[David Ragan]

The best way to sharpen a tiny carving tool,which I have done many,many times,is this: Grind off the end of the gouge square if a chunk has been broken off of it. Then,take the small India(the orange one) slip stone and hold it vertically,moving it straight up and down. Apply the gouge at a suitable angle to the stone and press it against the stone while rotating it in your fingers. I wear 4X drug store reading glasses while doing very small work. The highest magnification you can generally fine is 3.50 or 3.75 X. Probably can find 4X on Amazon. There is one pharmacy here that carries them. Called Professional Pharmacy. THE POINT IS: you need to be able to SEE what you're doing in small work. The 4X will greatly aid you. Optivisors don't magnify up to 4X as far as I know,and they bother me any way.

After you have stoned the bevel,until there is only a THIN edge of "light" to be seen all around the cutting edge,take your Arkansas stone,and repeat the process until that thin band of light,left by grinding the edge flat,is eliminated. Take a cut in wood every now and then,to eliminate burrs on the edge. Last,you may strop the edge.

Thank you George; this new enlightened method shall be tried tomorrow