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View Full Version : Urgent- need to charge M12 and M18 w/car



Malcolm Schweizer
09-09-2017, 8:17 AM
Keep it short and sweet. Hard to pull up net. Generators breaking and running out of fuel. I need to charge Milwaukee M18 and M12 batts with a car. I could figure this out but risk damaging a precious battery and no time- storm coming. Everyone asking how to help. Here is a simple way without having to send something. Figure out how to charge my M12 and M18 batts with 12v car.

Mike Cutler
09-09-2017, 8:30 AM
Malcom

I know that you're working this on the fly, in a bad situation. The quickest way is to find a DC-AC converter. Any RV, or large caravan, will have one somewhere on board.
Connect the converter to the the car battery and get AC out.

Jim Becker
09-09-2017, 1:05 PM
You need an inverter that you can plug your chargers into...not really any way to do it "direct" to the vehicle.

mike holden
09-09-2017, 1:12 PM
you are in a critical situation.
if you run out of ideas, we used to quick charge batteries for rc cars between heats by attaching them directly to 12 volt car batteries, pos to pos; neg to neg.
The milwaukee bats will get hot, so keep an eye on them, disconnect, then cool a bit, then reconnect.
I would suggest bringing the car battery into shelter with you, then you can cycle at your leisure, so to speak.
Stay safe, we are pulling for you.
Mike

James Waldron
09-09-2017, 2:42 PM
you are in a critical situation.
if you run out of ideas, we used to quick charge batteries for rc cars between heats by attaching them directly to 12 volt car batteries, pos to pos; neg to neg.
The milwaukee bats will get hot, so keep an eye on them, disconnect, then cool a bit, then reconnect.
I would suggest bringing the car battery into shelter with you, then you can cycle at your leisure, so to speak.
Stay safe, we are pulling for you.
Mike

FIRE HAZZARD! Take care if you try this! Your 18 volt batteries are lot bigger than those rc car batteries. They'll get a lot hotter a lot faster.

As a boat person you probably already know about inverters; Then, when you've found one and hooked it up to the 12 vdc, plug in your AC charger. Much safer. Just have find a working inverter. I keep a small one with a "cigar lighter plug" in my chart table for times when I don't want or need to fire up the gen set.

Mark Bolton
09-09-2017, 3:35 PM
One thing to remember is that dc chargers will run at a drastically derated rate when run on inexpensive inverters that produce square wave AC. If you can find an inexpensive inverter in your situation it will likely take hours and hours to charge a battery that will charge in an hour plugged I to AC. A step up is a modified square wave inverter but even those will give poor performance. A true sine wave inverter is the only thing that will allow you to charge at the same rate or faster than AC.
The other option that I'm sure isn't available to you in your situation is a dedicated vehicle charger for your brand of tools. All manufacturers have them. That said I'd say your in a pickle unless you can track down a sine wave genset or inverter.

Matt Meiser
09-09-2017, 6:04 PM
You wouldn't be able to charge an 18v battery past 12-ish volts off a car battery directly unfortunately. And the packs have electronics in them that may prevent charging without the proper charger.

Malcolm Schweizer
09-09-2017, 7:51 PM
Thanks all- everything said is what I was contemplating. No inverters were available- all boats sank and nothing to salvage. I finally got a converter.

Take my advice- buy tons of batteries for your cordless tools and always keep them
charged.

Surviving and in good spirits amidst the devastation. Net is difficult. I will not post further on this.

Dave Zellers
09-09-2017, 8:43 PM
"All boats sank"

Wow. It looks like Jose is turning just a bit to the north so that's good.

I know it won't help Malcolm but for purposes of getting answers into this thread for possible future reference, What size inverter would be needed to charge 18v tool batteries off a car battery using the correct charger for that tool? How many watts would be needed?

James Waldron
09-09-2017, 11:57 PM
"All boats sank"

Wow. It looks like Jose is turning just a bit to the north so that's good.

I know it won't help Malcolm but for purposes of getting answers into this thread for possible future reference, What size inverter would be needed to charge 18v tool batteries off a car battery using the correct charger for that tool? How many watts would be needed?

Any size will get the job done. It's just a matter of how much time it will take. More power is faster, up to the rating of the charger. And, yes, square wave inverters will be slower than full sine wave inverters, but if that's what you've got, it'll have to do. We're talking survival mode here. Following the flawless advice of Gunny Highway, "Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Chilling words from Malcolm: "All the boats sank." Makes my heart hurt.

Dave Zellers
09-10-2017, 1:00 AM
Makes my heart hurt.
It sure does. But the fact that we are even able to communicate with him is an amazing accomplishment of the 21st century.

I know this will sound critical but the process of hunkering down for a hit like this should include collecting anything and everything from trucks, RV's, boats, planes, whatever that can help in the aftermath.

Batteries, Batteries, Batteries! Given our insanely fabulous satellite connective ability today, this should be a major focus.

And to the point of Malcolm's plea, the ability to re-charge cordless tools, is essential. The power grid will be down for who knows how long- it literally could be months. An army of 18v cordless tools, recharged via solar powered local panels, is the quickest path toward clean up and then reconstruction.

There are lessons to be learned here. The next time this happens, the day after the storm passes, solar collectors connected to batteries need to start popping up EVERYWHERE. It will allow the people to get back into the streets, clearing paths for the government (military) to come in quickly and do their thing.

We have the technology already.

Mark Bolton
09-10-2017, 9:32 AM
You wouldn't be able to charge an 18v battery past 12-ish volts off a car battery directly unfortunately. And the packs have electronics in them that may prevent charging without the proper charger.

All manufacturers have vehicle charger options even for 18v tools that incorporate transformers for voltages higher than 12 but for sure a direct wired work around to charge wouldn't get to beyond 12.

Matt Meiser
09-10-2017, 12:44 PM
Right, I was just referring to basically trying to 'jump start" it.

I suspect the same issue that prevents them from charging well off an inverter would apply to inexpensive generators too so the vehicle charger is probably a good investment for emergencies. Especially if you have a good light that goes with your cordless system.

Mark Bolton
09-10-2017, 3:01 PM
No doubt. I would have one of the small Honda inverter style 2000 watt gensets if in were in a disaster prone area. They are almost silent and produce very clean power that will satisfy most electronics.

Living off grid for a long time is the only reason I've learned how poorly, if at all, a lot of modern electronics will perform on square wave power.

Mike Cutler
09-10-2017, 3:03 PM
Hmmm,,,,,,

Marcolm's problem has me thinking that having a brace with a set of bits, and a yankee screwdriver, around might not be a bad idea. No batteries required.

Frederick Skelly
09-10-2017, 3:05 PM
Hmmm,,,,,,

Marcolm's problem has me thinking that having a brace with a set of bits, and a yankee screwdriver, around might not be a bad idea. No batteries required.

That's good thinking Mike.

Keith Outten
09-10-2017, 3:37 PM
I suggest that everyone get at least one of the small solar panels you can put on your dashboard and plug into a cigarette lighter to charge your vehicle battery. They are slow but slow can be a wonderful thing if that's all you have. They don't require a controller so there is just a small panel and a wire with either the lighter plug or a set of clamps for your battery terminals. I have two of these that I normally use to trickle charge batteries in the Winter.

I also have two 70 watt panels that are still in the box plus a controller and three lithium ion 80 watt batteries. I have two converters, one is one thousand watts the other is 400 watts. The 400 watt converter I keep in my work van most of the time just in case I need to charge a small battery or run something that doesn't have a charger.

My main concern is having a means to start my generator if the battery is dead. I will always have an option to charge batteries and run a couple lights until I have the generator online. FWIW my generator isn't a whole house system. I purchased a Miller Bobcat welder/generator that can provide 11,000 watts and its a very nice welder. The welder gives me an opportunity to use the machine in other than power outages and increases the resale value to a much larger group.

Rick Potter
09-10-2017, 4:01 PM
Dave's thoughts are good, but I would think that solar panels on the house (or ground) would be the first casualties of Hurricane, or Tornado winds. Keiths's thought of keeping a few small panels in a safe place, to be plugged in after the storm is also a great suggestion.

Here at home, we have been discussing getting a water drum, for drinking water, as well as keeping all the cars fuel tanks full. Our danger cause in my area is earthquakes, with no warning at all.

Malcolm McLeod
09-10-2017, 4:55 PM
Malcolm,
Look for a neighbor with a Toyota FJ Cruiser; many have an inverter with 120VAC outlet in the way-back.

Stay safe.

Harold Balzonia
09-10-2017, 6:08 PM
Malcolm,
Look for a neighbor with a Toyota FJ Cruiser; many have an inverter with 120VAC outlet in the way-back.

Stay safe.

Great thinking... same feature is on the newer chevy tahoes

Jim Becker
09-10-2017, 6:25 PM
No doubt. I would have one of the small Honda inverter style 2000 watt gensets if in were in a disaster prone area. They are almost silent and produce very clean power that will satisfy most electronics.
Those are nice...but Malcolm indicated that fuel was running out, making generators useless, regardless of type.

-----
Malcolm, if you see this, some vehicles have built-in inverters. My Grand Cherokee does. Some may be enough to power a charger, but check the amperage rating to be sure if you discover a vehicle locally with this feature.

daryl moses
09-10-2017, 8:35 PM
Great thinking... same feature is on the newer chevy tahoes
As does my Toyota Tacoma, mine is a 2011 model, not sure about the newer ones. I've charged the battery on my old Yanmar tractor several times with it.

Leo Graywacz
09-10-2017, 8:38 PM
Ya, modified square wave inverters aren't that good for charging batteries. Sometimes they'll even destroy the battery. But charging a battery doesn't take that much power and a lower wattage sinewave inverter would do the job. I've had an inverter in my truck for quite some time now. I had a 3kw modified sq wave with a 100AH battery for a while and after about 8 yrs it died. Then I found out how much I missed it. From having to find outlets and a cord to plug a saw in for a couple of simple cuts, to not having a compressor when my son and wife needed air for their spare tires. Having to fill up 2 compressors and an air caddy to rescue my wife was the last straw. I got another 3Kw Pure Sinewave inverter and a 125AH battery. I'm very happy with it. Big difference in the operation of tools with a motor.

Something as simple as this
https://www.amazon.com/150W-Power-Inverter-Battery-Solutions/dp/B00V8XZT40/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1505090182&sr=8-5&keywords=200w+sine+wave+inverter

Malcolm Schweizer
09-11-2017, 12:09 AM
It sure does. But the fact that we are even able to communicate with him is an amazing accomplishment of the 21st century.

I know this will sound critical but the process of hunkering down for a hit like this should include collecting anything and everything from trucks, RV's, boats, planes, whatever that can help in the aftermath.

Batteries, Batteries, Batteries! Given our insanely fabulous satellite connective ability today, this should be a major focus.

And to the point of Malcolm's plea, the ability to re-charge cordless tools, is essential. The power grid will be down for who knows how long- it literally could be months. An army of 18v cordless tools, recharged via solar powered local panels, is the quickest path toward clean up and then reconstruction.

There are lessons to be learned here. The next time this happens, the day after the storm passes, solar collectors connected to batteries need to start popping up EVERYWHERE. It will allow the people to get back into the streets, clearing paths for the government (military) to come in quickly and do their thing.

We have the technology already.

Please come here and ride out 200 mph gusts with me in a 180 year old home before you tell me what I should have done. My kahunas are no longer brass. They are forged steel. Wanna compare? As for stuff we should have stocked up on- I am hosting people in my house who survived in a bathtub while their home was destroyed. Please tell me where they were supposed to put these supplies? It's not that they did not prepare- it's that they lost everything. Also where are all these RV's you mention on my 12 mile long Island? Solar panels need sunlight. We need to use tools and phones by day and charge at night. Keith Outten's idea is better/ charge the car w/solar- charge the batteries with the car. Fuel is low. Generators were destroyed. Nobody could have prepared 100% but here I am- almost zero damage to my house, fixing other people's houses and plumbing soup kitchens with my supplies.

As for bit braces and other hand drivers- you guys know I am a Neander and have tons of those. Have not touched them. I have, however, repaired countless shutters and cleared roads with a Diston D7 hand saw while everyone else waited for the guy with the chain saw. Hammer and nails- yes. Manual screwdrivers- no. We had two days to repair before at the time another Cat 5 hit us with similar path. Screw guns are fast and easier on the elbows. I drove plenty of nails as well- trust me. Screws are easier to remove after the storm. Also easier to salvage and reuse. Not just shutters, but whole window frames blew out on some homes. Piles of debris so ladders can't get you up there. You climb up the debris pile holding plywood in one hand, screw gun in the other. Sometimes you had to work from inside the house and make a handle to hold shutter on the outside and screw it from the inside.

I'm one of few with water because I keep a veritable plumbing supply store in my shop. Also I fixed the generator at the makeshift hospital because I keep link belts on hand. We were able to set up a soup kitchen because I keep stockpiles of water filters. I did actually have an inverter- just had to find where I put it ages ago. (Ding me for that) Finally found it. The batteries almost seemed to charge faster with it than when I had power. I have TONS of batteries and bought more before the storm. No car chargers for M18 or M12 here or in Puerto Rico that I could find.

Most roofs I saw with solar panels were destroyed. Solar panels= windage. Our solar field built two years ago that was supposed to be the way of the future- 90% destroyed. Our airport was on solar power. Totally destroyed. The military flew in generators. Got power late today. I wanted solar so bad before this storm. Not sure I do now. I am still a huge fan of it, but rethinking getting it here. I would say get enough to power your fridge. Take them down during the storm. That's my future plan.

My biggest recommendation- keep your shop organized. When it's pitch black, the shutters are literally cracking under wind load, and you need to quickly find a hammer, nails, wood, saw, putty knife (to drive shrink wrap into shutters to plug leaks), it helps to be so organized that you can do all that in the dark. I win on that one!

No hate, Happy to be alive.

Dave Zellers
09-11-2017, 12:44 AM
Well I was correct, it sounded critical.

Nothing I said was directed at you Malcolm, I was speaking about learning from the situation to improve the aftermath of the next one. Of course I wasn't thinking that rooftop solar would be availble after a hurricane, I was talking about small mobile units that can be brought out after it passes. I do have some experience dealing with the aftermath of a hurricane but nothing that even compares to this. All I can do from here is donate and send positive thoughts.
Sorry to have interrupted all the good you are doing.

Malcolm Schweizer
09-11-2017, 4:32 AM
Dave We are good- words read different than intended sometimes and I am running on adrenaline.

Our military from EVERY branch is amazing. Every 15 min an Osprey, C130, or military helicopter flys over w/supplies. Very proud of the response so far. Got to conserve my battery. I kinda came here to remind me of the normalcy I had before this, though I do not regret being here. It changed my life in a great way. After tripping over all my stuff trying to stay alive, I no longer care about stuff. Everyone should be required to be put in a box with all their stuff and have it subjected to a cat 5 direct hit. Afterwards you will hate your fancy stuff and love your relationships. Everyone here keeps saying they are happy this brought us together and commenting how it has made our community stronger.

Larry Edgerton
09-11-2017, 7:06 AM
Malcolm, my thoughts are with you. Have no advise, you know as much as I do, wish I could afford to come and help you for a while.

Larry

Dave Zellers
09-11-2017, 9:37 AM
Dave We are good- words read different than intended sometimes and I am running on adrenaline.
It's also good to just let your emotions out. Peace.

Jim Koepke
09-11-2017, 12:04 PM
Godspeed Malcolm, you get my vote for the True Grit Award.

Keep on hanging on.

You and your island are in my prayers.

jtk

James Waldron
09-11-2017, 10:50 PM
Thanks for your mini-rant, Malcolm. It tells us all a lot more than we know about conditions in the islands from the media. More that we need to know. There, the only current news is found in lurid headlines about looting with machetes and hand guns in Charlotte Amalie and very little about anything else. Sadly, once Irma turned north, you (and all the islands) were old news; lurid speculation about the FL Keys and Noah's flood on the west coast of FL drowned (pardon the expression) any word of St. Johns, St. Thomas, et al. Even before that there was scant hard news about the aftermath anywhere in the islands. Those of us who were thinking of you and others knew you were hit hard, but had little idea just how hard. Your post goes a long way to opening our eyes.

FL too has had a tough time in a lot of areas, with widespread flooding being the worst offender. A lot of people have had their lives turned inside-out. But we don't have the path of total destruction you describe.

My family and I were very fortunate: the path turned farther west and we escaped the worst. Power out, gen set running; internet and tv cable out, bcst tv sucks, internet and tv just restored so I got to see the second half of the Minnesota-New Orleans game; dock under water, boat still moored with maybe a bit of dock rash; lots of branches down, some substantial ones, a hard afternoon with chain saws, rakes, brooms and that's almost done. We were very fortunate. And very thankful.

I don't know of any way to be of help to you down there, but if you can think of anything, let me know here or by PM as you prefer. If I can help, I certainly will.

Damned good rant. Best one around here in quite some time.

Edwin Santos
09-12-2017, 12:39 AM
Malcolm,
Glad to hear your preparedness and capabilities are helping yourself and many others.
Say, when you are out of crisis mode, while these events are fresh, I hope you might find the time to put your experiences to paper in a journal or series of articles. It's a real eye opener for many of us who cannot even fathom what you and your fellow islanders have endured. Even your few posts here have been amazingly insightful.

Mark Bolton
09-12-2017, 5:42 PM
The sad thing about this entire thread looking at the news is that you could have planned appropriately and had a 2000 watt honda inverter genset, 40 gallons of fuel, have had the foresight to buy 12v DC car chargers for all your cordless tools, and then wound up with your shed with the car chargers and genset destroyed or blown away,.. your car flipped upside down, flooded, or floated away,... all your fuel reserves tipped over or contaminated, solar chargers (slower than hell, and I know because I have lived off grid for 16 years) smashed,.. and you'd still be sitting there wishing you had a good old fashion bow saw, and a some hand tools.

Hard to imagine not just curling up into a ball and breaking down sobbing.

P.S.
I think Im a super resourceful person given my years in the trade. I cant imagine the feeling of being in a situation where even if you had every single resource you could think of at your disposal that you could, and will, be wiped off the face of the earth should the cards fall that way. Seems like a life altering event to me.

Malcolm Schweizer
09-13-2017, 1:04 AM
I promise to post the whole thing when all is restored, plus a list of lessons learned and a few images. I have tried many times to read the comments and tonight was the first I was able. Thanks for all the thoughts. Power has been restored downtown- get this- up to but not including my house. Hopefully tomorrow they will fix the broken pole and get my house going. It will be January for folks on the far side of the island to get power. I am blessed. The amazing thing is seeing poles snapped not at the bottom, but at the top. Also some buildings sandblasted of paint and even stucco. There is a 38' Catamaran on a hill in neighboring Tortola. It didn't float there- it was blown. Seriously- too many stories to tell.

Emotions still turned off at the moment- you just keep going. Kudos to my wife who is volunteering at the RedCross 7-11:30 and then nursing 2 until when. As soon as she heard the hospital was badly damaged, she said, I have to go, and ran out the door in her shorts and a scrub top. Kudos to Gurleine who survived by jumping in a bathtub which is now all that remains of her home, but still she is spending all day entertaining my daughter while we work relief. Also the young man across the street who spent the day helping me fix homes and prepare for the next Cat5 storm, and then very apologetically said, "look, I am sorry- I have to go soon because I still don't know if my mom is okay and my friends are going to take me to look for her." Too many stories and too many heroes.

PLEASE See my comment to recent post in this forum about where can you donate to help hurricane victims.

Larry Edgerton
09-13-2017, 5:55 PM
The Media makes it sound like everyone is walking around down there with machetes and handguns. Your story sounds different.

Nicholas Lawrence
09-13-2017, 7:27 PM
The Media makes it sound like everyone is walking around down there with machetes and handguns. Your story sounds different.

Well, they are the same people who told us the people were being massacred in the super dome.

Pat Barry
09-14-2017, 8:06 AM
The Media makes it sound like everyone is walking around down there with machetes and handguns. Your story sounds different.
This was on the news again last night. I do believe there is some of this going on. It isn't fake news and it isn't surprising in the least. Once catastrophes happen there are bound to be renegades with little concern for life or property. If you want to think its being sensationalized, so be it. That doesn't mean that it isn't true though. The National Guard or local cops have not secured the entire island (islands) according to the report on the national news though. If that is the case, even somewhere, then its newsworthy. I hope Malcolm, his family, his friends and his neighbors all are safe and sound.

Jim Becker
09-14-2017, 11:38 AM
I believe this video is relevant about the situation in the US VI

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/14/st-john-forgotten-island-soares-pkg.cnn

Jim Koepke
09-14-2017, 1:27 PM
The Media makes it sound like everyone is walking around down there with machetes and handguns. Your story sounds different.


Well, they are the same people who told us the people were being massacred in the super dome.

Some "News" outlets want to sensationalize every story and they attract audiences that "want" such.

There will always be those who are outside the norm and disaster often has them trying to take advantage of a bad situation. As a whole humanity comes together and will even overlook many differences in the times of greatest need.

jtk

Alan Rutherford
09-16-2017, 11:51 AM
You can't charge an 18v battery from a 12v battery, but you should be able to charge it from 2 of them wired in series to get 24v. You might be OK with directly connecting the 18v batteries and watching the temperature. If you had time to prepare, finding an appropriate resistance to step the voltage down some would be more elegant. Or put a long piece of relatively small wire in series with the batteries. Not the best solution but might work if you have no other options.

Mark Bolton
09-16-2017, 2:42 PM
You can't charge an 18v battery from a 12v battery, but you should be able to charge it from 2 of them wired in series to get 24v. You might be OK with directly connecting the 18v batteries and watching the temperature. If you had time to prepare, finding an appropriate resistance to step the voltage down some would be more elegant. Or put a long piece of relatively small wire in series with the batteries. Not the best solution but might work if you have no other options.


If you have the capacity and knowledge to step the voltage down from 24v to 18v you could just as easily step it up from 12v to 18v.

The real issue is the charge controller aspect of the process. Shortly into the process you would have to sit there and on a second by second basis be cutting the charge current on and off to not exceed the peak voltage capacity of the battery. Shortly into the process of throttling charge a charge controler is shunting power coming into the battery hundreds of times a minute. It would be almost impossible to do manually unless you were willing to risk trashing a lot of batteries.

Alan Rutherford
09-16-2017, 3:22 PM
If you have the capacity and knowledge to step the voltage down from 24v to 18v you could just as easily step it up from 12v to 18v......

I wouldn't mind knowing how. I can't imagine how you would do that without components more sophisticated than scraps of wire. I agree the charge rate would be a problem but we're talking emergency conditions here. Any resistance in the circuit would help throttle the current through the batteries although it might be far from perfect.

Leo Graywacz
09-16-2017, 3:40 PM
Stepping down a DC voltage is as simple as a few resistors. Stepping up a DC voltage is much more complicated. You can go the route of using a LM2731 IC and some simple circuitry. But Lithium Ion batteries need chargers that can monitor the battery so it doesn't catch fire.

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2731.pdf

Mark Bolton
09-16-2017, 4:43 PM
Thats my point. Stepping up or down the the voltage is a simple as a batch of scrap wire made into a transformer winding or a resistance load. in a battery charging situation getting the voltage to match that of the battery being charged is the very least of the challenges. If it were that easy I would just plug a 24v solar panel into a 24v battery bank and walk away. It doesnt work that way. As the battery gains charge it can no longer withstand the full amperage output of the the panel (still at 24v). So the charge controller (your tools battery charger) keeps seeping as much power into the battery as possible without exceeding its high voltage limit. This happens on a second by second basis and takes a long period of time (perhaps 75% of your batteries charging cycle) to fully top off the battery.

The whole conversation is pointless because anyone who hacked their 12v battery into a cars vehicle charger would likely find themselves with a partially charged battery, or minimally charged battery, in an hours time. Charging technology in todays batteries is about as advanced as the battery chemistry itself. Hacks and work arounds are hard to come by.

Leo Graywacz
09-16-2017, 4:56 PM
If this was AC voltage I would agree. With DC voltage it is not easy. Just about anyone can twist a couple wires and resistors together to drop the voltage. But you need skill to use the modern ICs and produce a circuit board with the components wired exactly correct. Just finding them is one challenge.