Shaper cutters solid vs insert

[andy photenas]

So thanks to help from the form I am looking into the best rail and stile bits to use in my 1 1/2 hp shapers ? I also have a 3 hp shaper but only 1. I may buy a 2nd if its a big step up for making doors

Name brands are welcome and do you guys think its better to invest in solid non adjustable cutter heads or the types that u attach blades to the cutter head as needed ?

[Martin Wasner]

Until you step up the shapers I'd just get brazed tooling.

I run insert heads from Dimension In Tooling. Insert heads have a substantially higher entry fee, but they're cheaper to run in the long term. I used to have the inserts sharpened, but now I don't even bother. Once dull I just pitch them. I can usually get about 400 doors out of a set of knives, so the cost per door is not much.

I use four separate shapers for doors.

An SCMi T130N for sticking and sizing, I use an outboard fence with digital read outs that I put together using 80/20 parts. I stack the sticking head on top of a four wing opposite shear insert cutter, so I just dial in the spindle height to go from sticking to sizing.

A pair of Powermatic Model 27 shapers for coping. (Left & right) I use Reliable Copecrafter clamps on these.

A SAC TS125 for panel raising. It uses a four wing insert head.


Those Powermatic shapers are overworked swinging 5" heads. They also spin too fast at 7K rpm. They'd be better at 6K.

[andy photenas]

What is the idea behind a left and right cope machines ? I do cope cuts first and not sure how a left and right machine would help?

[Martin Wasner]

What is the idea behind a left and right cope machines ? I do cope cuts first and not sure how a left and right machine would help?

I do my sticking cut in full length rips, and cut to length. Then you just need a square backer when coping profiles. (shaker style doesn't matter since it's square, you can run both ends on the same machine) You don't have to worry about small parts going through the sticking cut and wiggling around either, or jigging it up so the feeder will pull it through. Most things that's not a problem, but I get squeamish putting anything much less than 6" through a shaper.

I've done it where you cope first then stick. I don't think you get any better quality For me it's really tough for one person to keep the machine cutting constantly, and the operation doesn't justify having someone tail it. Ideally you want parts back to back and there's essentially zero empty cutter time. An empty but running machine is just costing you money, not making it. If you're not cutting wood up, or putting it back together, you're not making money. You want to limit that unproductive time as much as possible.

The downside to left and right copes is you have to buy another head. Figure $600 per profile if you don't like changing knives every time you need a different profile. Plus you should always have at least one set of knives on hand. If you have three profiles you typically run, it doesn't take long monkeying around changing knives to pay for those extra heads. Some dedicated coping machines will stack up profiles so the change over time is negligible. One shop I worked at had a wall of shapers for coping. The theory there is multiple people can cope parts at once. When you pump out a couple hundred doors a day, it's a necessity to have multiple stations and no downtime for change overs.

[Mel Fulks]

There are two types of work being discussed at once, high production dedicated machines and custom cabinet -millwork shops that make doors only for the more particular customers. Mine has only been the latter. For running the real short pieces ,they are lined up face down against a straight piece of wood. Then a long piece of plywood is stapled on with the
uncoated staples . Yes ,the feeder height has to be adjusted up to stick them. I think the main line between the two types of work is the quality of panel grain matches ,that is what brings most comments from buyers.

[J.R. Rutter]

For running the real short pieces ,they are lined up face down against a straight piece of wood. Then a long piece of plywood is stapled on with the
uncoated staples . Yes ,the feeder height has to be adjusted up to stick them.

I just use 2" packing tape to hold shorties end to end, and place it so that it wraps over the outside edge slightly. I may have gotten this idea from you at some point, Mel.

[Mel Fulks]

Well thanks ,J.R. But your idea is better ;no need to move the feeder up! You have unrolled a clear cohesive and adhesive method that
eliminates a sticking ...sticking point, and is clearly packaged in graciousness.

[J.R. Rutter]

Hahaaa! :)

[Martin Wasner]

There are two types of work being discussed at once, high production dedicated machines and custom cabinet -millwork shops that make doors only for the more particular customers. Mine has only been the latter.

Alright Mel, you've successfully troll'd me. Please expand. I work for some pretty picky people and on some houses that I will never, ever, be able to afford.

Good pun(s) by the way.

There's no reason not to approach building things in the small shop in a similar fashion to the larger companies in my mind. Space is usually the biggest issue for the small shop owner, and it does take a while to get there. I've moved twice, and am in my third space. I've been in business for thirteen years, so it doesn't happen overnight. Especially when the housing market decides to tank a few years after you set out. It's always a tricky scenario, or a case of the chicken and the egg. You need the work to pay for the tooling, but you need the tools to do the work and actually make it worthwhile. Cabinets are super easy to build and really boring. Building a business is challenging and extremely fulfilling. There is so much I thought I knew when it came to making doors from an equipment standpoint a few years ago that was just wrong. Sure, it worked, but it was a struggle and time consuming. All it takes is that right customer, the right timing, and the right couple of jobs to fall in line and you can take those earnings and invest them in yourself or your business to make it happen easier, faster, and with better results. Then the next one is easier. Then you hit that moment again where you've got a pile of cash on hand because you've been busting your hump, then you do it again, and things are that much better again, but even more so than the last time. For me it's a drug. "Holy crap, that took us X amount of time before, now it's almost twice as fast and it does it better because of the new widget." Then you scratch your head and wonder why you didn't do it earlier. I've enjoyed building my business far more than anything I've ever built out of wood, and I love seeing other people succeed.

For me it all started when I replaced my old widebelt with the new one. An ah ha moment. The new one is almost four times as fast, (as far as on machine time goes), and the secondary operations are WAY easier since it leaves a far superior scratch from the old machine. I figure I saved $7k in labor that first year it was running, and that wasn't that many hours. I only put 50 hours on it in the first year, multiply that times 5 so you include the savings on secondary sanding and that's 250 hours. Multiply it again by 1.75 because most things require two people to keep the machine fed and unloaded and you get 438 hours. Now multiply that times $25/hr for an employee cost and you've got almost $11,000. Doesn't take long and a $40k sander is putting that $11,000 either into your pocket annually, or into the next item to make you more productive. And sure, there's no free lunch. The space the machine occupies costs money, electricity isn't free, and a dust collector burns piles of cash as well.


Andy, I don't know where you are, but if you were in the area I'd say swing by, and we can build a couple of doors and you can see what can be done. And like I said, I'm not even close to doing it ideally yet.

[Mel Fulks]

Yo Martin, I'm not saying high quality can't come out of big shops. Indeed they always have the option of "After you glue up those panels make sure the best ones go in the Grouser job!" My point was that ,IMO the only niche for small shops ,when comes to cabinets, is the high end. I do think that some of the cabinet designers are so bad that they never do a job with out sourced doors without making a faulty door list....so you have to make a door or two even when you buy them somewhere else.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

So thanks to help from the form I am looking into the best rail and stile bits to use in my 1 1/2 hp shapers ? I also have a 3 hp shaper but only 1. I may buy a 2nd if its a big step up for making doors

Name brands are welcome and do you guys think its better to invest in solid non adjustable cutter heads or the types that u attach blades to the cutter head as needed ?


Having used many many heads over the past 20+ years I've run our family business, and ten more previous to that... here is my opinion. A well made, name brand brazed carbide set of door cutters can certainly be used to produce excellent doors. Poorly matched import cutters are a waste of $ IMO... but I was tempted once to try some and bought about 4 sets. Junk.

since 2010, I've gone to carbide insert style exclusively. I have had excellent luck with sets from Byrd, once from Dimar and a few from the Canadian tooling manufacturer, Royce/Ayr. I've paid over $2K for one set of cutters but decent ones like the one set I have from Dimar are much less.

The finish on the Byrd heads (not the carbide cutters, I mean the steel heads themselves) are not as nice but we make enough doors to know what works and what doesn't, and I think they are decent quality.

I dont one think I'd invest any more $ into brazed tooling any more. insert is very convenient and I believe the grade of carbide to be better. You can also get one set of heads and several style inserts which will fit those heads, which in the long run can save a lot of $$.

[andy photenas]

i live in new hampshire and man some of you guys are so nice i cant get over it! where do you live around?

[andy photenas]

hmm on the Dimar site it only shows router bits when u click on cutters maybe they dont make them anymore ill keep looking any good links would be great if anyone happens to have any handy.
I seem to remember hearing the carbide is better on the inserts because you dont need to heat it to attach it but i dont know the truth of this tbh.
is it possible to get into a decent set for $500 ?

[jack forsberg]

Yo Martin, I'm not saying high quality can't come out of big shops. Indeed they always have the option of "After you glue up those panels make sure the best ones go in the Grouser job!" My point was that ,IMO the only niche for small shops ,when comes to cabinets, is the high end. I do think that some of the cabinet designers are so bad that they never do a job with out sourced doors without making a faulty door list....so you have to make a door or two even when you buy them somewhere else.
I like Mel am after short runs of good quality. With average machines . no need to run after the stock


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VKjhYXptbQ

[Andrew J. Coholic]

hmm on the Dimar site it only shows router bits when u click on cutters maybe they dont make them anymore ill keep looking any good links would be great if anyone happens to have any handy.
I seem to remember hearing the carbide is better on the inserts because you dont need to heat it to attach it but i dont know the truth of this tbh.
is it possible to get into a decent set for $500 ?

http://www.dimar-canada.com/products.php?m=56&idp=14

[andy photenas]

Thanks Andrew i am checking out there site now, the sold out google search wont come up with it easy go figure.

[andy photenas]

looking at all the tools i noticed one thing. All of the insert heads I find only have 2 blades and the solid sets have 3 blades. Will the 3rd blade make for less back pressure on the cutting process ? and on smaller machines are the inserts really too big as they all have 1 1/4 bore and i have 3/4 only(i know i can use bushings ot make it work)?

[Martin Wasner]

I would look for heads that use a backer instead of a dedicated setup.

When a customer wants something custom ground for a profile it's much cheaper if you can use a head you've already got, or if something goes out of style it's pretty cheap to shelve a set of knives and backers instead of a complete setup.

Just a thought.

I'll reiterate though, it's not going to be awesome until you get a shaper with tight enough tolerances to make use of the better heads. I had a set of Freeborn insert heads for shaker style that I just couldn't get a nice fit on until I dropped them into a better machine, then they were perfect.

Most of the manufactures build the heads to a zero tolerance. In a perfect world you'd have a rough time assembling doors because everything would be too tight. No machine is THAT perfect, and neither is the material, so that's where they get their wobble to make things fit well. Ideally you have to slip a knife to get the fit you want. Too loose, even though everything is adjusted properly, is a pain in the rear

[Mel Fulks]

Andy ,two cutters actually cut easier. The quality of the inserts makes two cutters enough. There are different opinions on using the bushings; I think it's OK if you keep the cutter at the lowest point on the spindle.

[andy photenas]

thanks i have some thinking to do it seems :)

[Mel Fulks]

Credit and thanks to Martin Wasner for solving a mystery. I've mentioned several times in these door threads that the small carbide door sets must be run at 10,000 rpm; any slower and cope and sticking fits are too tight to pull up. It was always puzzling since both surfaces seemed to look perfect, certainly not bumpy. Everyone who saw that for the first time immediately thought the sharpener was to blame, and that can happen. I'm now convinced that a lack of wobble was the real problem.



"Most of the manufactures build the heads to a zero tolerance. In a perfect world you'd have a rough time assembling doors because everything would be too tight. No machine is THAT perfect, and neither is the material, so that's where they get their wobble to make things fit well."
MARTIN WASNER

[Martin Wasner]

My carbide guy filled me in on that tidbit.

[Ken Grant]

I'll reiterate though, it's not going to be awesome until you get a shaper with tight enough tolerances to make use of the better heads. I had a set of Freeborn insert heads for shaker style that I just couldn't get a nice fit on until I dropped them into a better machine, then they were perfect.

Most of the manufactures build the heads to a zero tolerance. In a perfect world you'd have a rough time assembling doors because everything would be too tight. No machine is THAT perfect, and neither is the material, so that's where they get their wobble to make things fit well. Ideally you have to slip a knife to get the fit you want. Too loose, even though everything is adjusted properly, is a pain in the rear

This is how I figured out the bearings were going out on one of my shapers. I had been running the Freeborn insert stuff for a while and it always fit perfect. The parts weren't hard to put together, but would slip together with enough friction that you could hold it upside down and they would not fall apart.

Then I noticed the fit started getting looser and I couldn't figure out what was going on. Replaced the spindle bearings and what do you know, fit was perfect again.

Freeborn is selling a two piece cope head now on their insert sets with shims to adjust the fit in order to deal with spindle runout. One of the guys from Freeborn's shop told me that they had people complain about door parts not fitting and 99% of the time it was a problem with the customer's shaper, but they got tired of dealing with customers complaining and blaming Freeborn so they just made the fit adjustable.

[Joe Calhoon]

I think insert multi piece sets are better for most profile - counter profile sets. They will usually cost more than the one piece type. Another advantage is all the cutters are not hitting the material at once. Different hardness and density of material can effect the tightness along with solidity of machine, bearings and vertical accuracy of the shaft in both directions.

[David Kumm]

I know we are getting off topic but bearing issues come up fairly often with shapers and they need to be checked or swapped regularly. Bearings that allow for high speeds tend to be smaller and have lower radial load capability than large slow speed high load bearings. Expensive or old shapers used large high precision bearings with complicated oil drip lubrication systems to allow for both high speed and high load. As machines have gone to shielded smaller bearings lubricated with grease, the bearings are running within their rpm limits but at higher stress due to their load limits. That pretty much insures that bearing replacement will be necessary. Even a heavy shaper like an SCM T130 now runs a 6011 light duty upper bearing vs the double bearing set up 20 years ago. Maintenance is important when running the heavy large heads a shaper is capable of. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

The parts weren't hard to put together, but would slip together with enough friction that you could hold it upside down and they would not fall apart.

That, or just a tiny freckle tighter is what I like to see as well.





Another thought, don't mix and match brands. Do you due diligence, select a company, then marry them for the long haul. Having everything with the same minor/major diameters, and the same offsets for stick/cope profiles makes change overs stupid easy. Crack the nut, pull the head, slide the other head on, tighten the nut, rock n' roll. Anything more than that just begs for inconsistencies. I used to have a basket case of miscellaneous heads that I bought used. Three (3) different tongue lengths, offsets were all different, and diameters were all different. Change overs took forever. I do jobs that routinely have four different species and three different door styles, which means worst case scenario I potentially have to change gears twelve times if I don't have everything in place to run all of one profile. Which happens. Waiting for approval on something, can't wait but I don't have material for something in the run, sometimes both. Sometimes more. Then when you screw up a door, or make one wrong for whatever reason, it's pretty easy to crank out another one in short order too.


It was a happy day when the carbide guy dropped these off.

http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12063788_10206446660436542_9029283761709273051_n.j pg?oh=f6045a47eb8429941cfb297543ae9bbd&oe=5A1A2F76

[Phillip Gregory]

Credit and thanks to Martin Wasner for solving a mystery. I've mentioned several times in these door threads that the small carbide door sets must be run at 10,000 rpm; any slower and cope and sticking fits are too tight to pull up. It was always puzzling since both surfaces seemed to look perfect, certainly not bumpy. Everyone who saw that for the first time immediately thought the sharpener was to blame, and that can happen. I'm now convinced that a lack of wobble was the real problem.

"Most of the manufactures build the heads to a zero tolerance. In a perfect world you'd have a rough time assembling doors because everything would be too tight. No machine is THAT perfect, and neither is the material, so that's where they get their wobble to make things fit well."
MARTIN WASNER

You also need enough SFPM of the cutter to make a decent quality cut and minimize kickback. A fellow member here posted a guide a while ago that recommended 10-12k minimum SFPM for carbide cutters and 8-10k minimum for HSS knives on a shaper. A 1 1/2 hp shaper will likely run 1/2" or 3/4" cutters and a 3 hp shaper will typically run 3/4" bore cutters. A 3/4" bore brazed cutter is usually about 3" in diameter and you need to spin it at 10k RPM to hit 8500 SFPM. I would expect that is the biggest reason why you need to run a small brazed cutter at 10k RPM.


I know we are getting off topic but bearing issues come up fairly often with shapers and they need to be checked or swapped regularly. Bearings that allow for high speeds tend to be smaller and have lower radial load capability than large slow speed high load bearings. Expensive or old shapers used large high precision bearings with complicated oil drip lubrication systems to allow for both high speed and high load. As machines have gone to shielded smaller bearings lubricated with grease, the bearings are running within their rpm limits but at higher stress due to their load limits. That pretty much insures that bearing replacement will be necessary. Even a heavy shaper like an SCM T130 now runs a 6011 light duty upper bearing vs the double bearing set up 20 years ago. Maintenance is important when running the heavy large heads a shaper is capable of. Dave

I will second that one. My shaper is a Whitney No. 134, which has open ABEC7 6311 top and 6309 bottom bearings with an oil wick and slinger lubrication system. I have not seen a new shaper with oil lubrication in a long time but there are still a small number of new units with upper and lower pairs of angular contact bearings made, Grizzly's largest one with the long table being one example (but the only one they sell that way- the rest are all single upper and lower deep groove radial bearings.) However the smaller greased bearings are a lot less expensive, a new set of bearings for my unit is a whopping $2400.

[peter gagliardi]

I have a 134 waiting for bearings and reassembly.
With a little looking, the proper bearings for it can be had for $6-800.
It is time for me to invest in proper insert tooling as well. I have gotten away with Freeborn brazed for the last 20+ years, but the finish is better on the insert type for sure, plus larger diameters helps.

[David Kumm]

As Peter said, you can source open precision bearings for much less on ebay but you need to spend a few hours learning each manufacturers nomenclature. No standardization there. I'm strictly a hobby guy but have made about 100 passage and cabinet doors and 90% have been with the same Freeborn 8 piece entry door brazed set. I like the large profile and 5/8" tongue and groove. The brazed set is just now getting to need sharpening. If you don't need a million profiles or make a million doors, the Freeborn brazed set with the tongue trimmer is easy to set up and works pretty well. There are sets that are lightly used for sale from other hobbyists and are a good value. I don't like the Freeborn raised panel cutters quite as well as I prefer a little more profile and 7" is a tad small diameter for the 7/16" tongue I use with a 5/8" groove. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Dave, I had that same Freeborn set for many years. As you say it is not bad and I sent it to Freeborn a few times for sharpening and it maintained a good fit. Freeborn was always my favorite of the braised tooling and still buy that for odd stuff we do. We have gone on to more complex insert tooling for our mainstream tooling and like that a lot but you need to use it to justify the cost.

To the OP- keep in mind if you run the larger 4 1/2 to 5"" diameter heads on the small shapers they will eat bearings in a hurry. Better to stay with small diameters if you keep those.

[David Kumm]

Joe, it is time for a picture of your rehabbed Martin. One of my favorite shapers. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Here you go Dave. I had to make a sample window frame for the Vegas show and wanted to see how the T23 handled the 50mm bore insert cutters from the Soukup machine. These are the deepest cuts we make on windows for a Danish style outswing. The frames are almost 4" thick. The tenon heads are 320mm diameter and the profile head about 165mm.
One thing I have noticed is the fit is just slightly loose compared to when run on the window machine. This is true on all my shapers. Maybe because I am using reduction bushings on the shapers with 40mm shafts. Still a acceptable fit. Inserts on sleeves can be adjusted for fit.
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[Joe Calhoon]

The sliding table makes for safe running of small raised panels.
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[andy photenas]

wow nice machine ! can u run more then 1 cope cut at a time on a slider like that also ? If so how many copes can you do at one shot?

[Joe Calhoon]

Normally two up for cabinet doors and windows. One up for house doors.
In our business of architectural millwork it is all about short setup times more than quantity or feed speeds. Every job is different.

[Martin Wasner]

The tenon heads are 320mm diameter......


That's not a head, that thing wakes up every morning, stares in the mirror and quotes Oppenheimer. It's something else entirely.

[Brad Shipton]

Joe, I like the dial gauge for cutting tenons. That looks like a handy setup tool.

[Joe Calhoon]

Brad, that is a Igus lead screw with a mechanical digital readout. Joe Doherty found these at the Ligna show and they are available here. I made a wood mount to attach to the shaper that is a bit Rube Goldberg and hope to make something better out of metal but it works pretty good as is. Slot and tenon depth is critical in window and door work. The tenons should be recessed about .5mm to allow tight clamping and then cleanup with outside profiling. So far this seems to be a repeatable setup and have it centered on the shaft at zero for custom setups. For their new shapers Martin offers a gauge with a scale that can be set with a caliper. It's about $500. I have about $250 in this one with my time.

[Jeff Bartley]

Dang that's a beautiful machine Joe! I'd sure love to spend a few volunteer weeks in your shop!
I cut a window frame sort of similar to that earlier this year and used a shop made tenon fixture and chisels.

[Justin Ludwig]

Freeborn has mini cutters and pro series cutters. Either way you go, they'll pay for themselves on the first set of doors. Call Doyle at Freeborn and tell him what shapers you're running.

[Brad Shipton]

That's good to know Joe. I know you would have found a lead screw with reasonable backlash. It is pretty easy to spend a lot on those if you are not careful.

Does Mac send you Christmas gifts? :D

[andy photenas]

Thanks this freeborn looks good ill give them a call next.

[J.R. Rutter]

Well thanks ,J.R. But your idea is better ;no need to move the feeder up! You have unrolled a clear cohesive and adhesive method that
eliminates a sticking ...sticking point, and is clearly packaged in graciousness.

I snapped a pic last week after running some short rails.

https://i.imgur.com/MOR1sNu.jpg

[Mel Fulks]

J.R., Thanks for glossy photo and tips on eliminating red tape !! From the size of those rails I'm guessing the tooth pick storage area is catching on.....kitchen scientists usually demand that they be next to the giant ironing board cabinet !

[Martin Wasner]

What's your method for coping those little guys? Tape them to a longer stick?

[J.R. Rutter]

What's your method for coping those little guys? Tape them to a longer stick?

My cope sled has both top and side clamps, so it can hold them securely with some extra strips of scrap and using extra rails as spacers (no need to tape) to spread out the side pressure. I've done rails as small as 1 3/4" long for silly designers.

[Martin Wasner]

I've done rails as small as 1 3/4" long for silly designers.

Oi. ¾" gap between stiles is a little bizarre. I don't think I've been forced to go that small, close though.

What I've done in the past for little guys like that is do the stick cut first, then use the cope head to make a matching stick with a tongue then tape the two together. Then I'll do a couple of shallow passes to knock most of the material out, then a final pass. It's pretty stable

They're shady when they're that small. You are just waiting for the fahwack as it gets sucked into the head.

[Justin Ludwig]

They're shady when they're that small. You are just waiting for the fahwack as it gets sucked into the head.

My hand is ready for the red button and my butt so tight you couldn't slide a greased BB passed my crack when running those pieces. Last set of cabs I did that had some that small I ended up just ordering the pair and built the rest. I can't blame a designer. There are no designers or architects here. It's all on me.

[Mel Fulks]

That's one reason why I just get them out at least 5 and 1/2 inchs wide and cope with feeder. Certainly not the only wood
working operation that benefits from "wasting" ( the term used by someone who has "wasted " a finger or two) a bit of wood. Don't think many turners try to get by with a spur mark on top of an acorn bed post.
P.S.: I neglected an important safety point,sorry. The feeder use requires the use of rub collar instead of cutter in the center of stack. Otherwise the copes will be wavy , and the practice itself unsafe. Rub collar might have to be bought separately.

[Martin Wasner]

Belt feeder I assume?

[mreza Salav]

Not a pro but when I have to do a bunch of drawers with very small copes I make my glue up the width of all of them combined and cut to length. Then run that short (along grain) and very wide board using the feeder and then rip them to size. Here is the picture for the panels, same method.

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[Martin Wasner]

That's a panel. We're talking about coping the rails that go into the stiles

[Warren Lake]

and on a panel you can run down to whatever with even below what you need for the raise as there is a runner on the bottom below the cutter for support so it doesnt get sucked in, have a 3/16" metal runner panel end is always supported and the belt feeder gets around the space and uneven pressure wheels would put on it.

sure you could come up with something like those agner push block things that holds your part and your feeder goes over over it and runs your cope running on that thing and still face down? Wooden sled messes up all your cutter heights I guess.

[mreza Salav]

That's a panel. We're talking about coping the rails that go into the stiles

As I said, it's the same method. You cope the two sides of a large board (think of a 20" wide rail) using feeder, then rip it to size.

[Justin Ludwig]

As I said, it's the same method. You cope the two sides of a large board (think of a 20" wide rail) using feeder, then rip it to size.
That's a pretty slick approach too. /stored for future anti-butt puckering measures

[peter gagliardi]

Those are some pretty good options for getting around what I like to think of as poor kitchen design!
In my experience, if you need a door that small, you are doing something wrong, and you need to re-evaluate the layout.
It isn't really safe running parts that small, and it looks terrible in place.
Of course I do realize that designers and architects drive some of this, and we are at the mercy of what they propose to the client, but I think maybe they just haven't really taken the time to understand what they have drawn.
I have had to make ridiculously small parts like this, only a couple times over the years, and it is never from my design.
I do not have a problem talking to them, or the homeowner about it, or ways around it.
I have even just said no.
Of course I CAN do it, but I like to think I am smart enough to find a better way around it.

[jack forsberg]

Not all small short copes are involved in kitchen doors . Seen and made many a newel post with them . I box feed them. Now before all you go and tell me this is a panel it works the same for stile and rail. Warren a brake through fence adds support. You just don't want the part to rock and thats what the box feed does.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXolACH1uSA

[Mel Fulks]

Coping wide rail material with a feeder (instead of sled) requires that the "rub collar" replace the center of stack cutter.
That is a safety thing. I apologize and have edited original post.

[Warren Lake]

thats good Jack the thing in my mind was like the Aigner thing ive seen guys use same principle but over the whole part so the feeder could feed it through. YOurs has an outside stop that way its boxed in so better for sure, I used to cut small parts angled on the table saw that way sometimes boxes sometimes on a piece of ply then just staple rips on around it that was a bit better for the saw. see you are using a feeder at the end but not shown running it that should work well. Says last post is from Mel when I look here then yours is the last one bizarre

[Joe Calhoon]

A carrier is good if doing a large quantity of small panels. I prefer the sliding table for one off's. Quick and easy. In the bar picture we used a rub collar for the curve making a few light passes. The last pass following the curve with light pressure on the clamp. My vintage Martin has a robust table that can be positioned close in to the cutter and its easier on that one for this type work. Short copes are no problem either. The Felder did Ok using the tenon plate.
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[Martin Wasner]

A carrier is good if doing a large quantity of small panels. I prefer the sliding table for one off's. Quick and easy. In the bar picture we used a rub collar for the curve making a few light passes. The last pass following the curve with light pressure on the clamp. My vintage Martin has a robust table that can be positioned close in to the cutter and its easier on that one for this type work. Short copes are no problem either. The Felder did Ok using the tenon plate.
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Nice bar Joe.

Where did you source the panels in the base? Are they stamped metal, or carved and just painted to look like metal?

[Mel Fulks]

I appreciate the work in the bar ,but Victorian interpretation of ancient stuff is my least favorite style. Love the panels but
Bachus without a thyrsus is a serious flaw! There is some evidence that they were used like cocktail flags in early US.

[Joe Calhoon]

Martin, the owner picked them up locally here. They are stamped metal and I think they were part of a tin ceiling in a bar or bordelo here. I just backed them up with plywood and it worked well.

Mel, I agree about the Victorian era but that is our "young history" in the mining camps out west. I don't have a picture but you would not like the right side of the bar that ends into a 48" diameter log post. I don't think the early woodworkers here were trained at the North Bennett School.:)

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=Joe Calhoon "the right side of the bar that ends into a 48" diameter log post"

sounds like you're talking about a really big spittoon!