Should i be able to make rail and stile cuts in one pass?

[andy photenas]

Hello all, I have a small to mid size shop and i am really working hard to get my lead time on a custom kitchen down. one thing that i notice costs me a lot of time and im not sure if its needed is i a 2nd pass on all of my profile cuts(jointer then back for 2nd) and i get a face chip out on a lot of the cope cuts. I find if i do the cope in 2 passes they do this much much less or not at all.
The way i am making them now is im using shaper tables with router rail and stile bits in them the profile shaper has a small power feeder on it (different machines). From reading on this site I have learned that the rpms are a bit low for this job on a shaper so i plan to buy 3 wing shaper bit sets but they are expensive-ish.

So my question is, should I be able to get one pass (with the grain facing the proper way for milling ofc) one rail and stile cuts with little to no chipping ?

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes, you do of course need a backer board when cutting the cope profile........Rod.

[David Kumm]

Also depends on size of shaper and quill. I've always gotten a better result with just one pass but I run larger machines and larger diameter cutters. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

For rails I use material at least 5and1/2 inches wide then rip to needed size before running sticking .That way I can use the power feeder. Of course you need a rub collar in middle of stack rather than cutter,many sets come with both. High Rpm is a must for the small diameter sets. Several times I have had co -workers ask me "what's wrong with these cutters". Problem was they had machine set on low speed. The small diameter sets must have at least 10,000 rpm. I always use 10,000 with the bigger diameter sets too.

[Wayne Lomman]

Yes you should be able to do the job in one pass. You need to research the specs for your cutters so that you use the correct rpm and feed rate. I suspect these are not correct at the moment. Replacing your router cutters with shaper cutters is the direction to go as soon as you have funds available. The productivity gain will make you wish you had changed sooner. Cheers

[Martin Wasner]

With a proper setup, there's no reason to do any of it in less than a single pass.


What are you using for shapers?

What are you using for cutters?

Are you oversizing the length of rails?

Are you running left and right copers, or using a coped backer block to protect the profile?

Do you cope then stick, or are you doing the sticking in full length rips?

[Martin Wasner]

Oops. I reread.

Router bits aren't for making doors on a production level.

My business has grown exponentially in the last few years. The very first thing I started going hard on upgrading was my door building process. I had mismatched insert heads running in light duty shapers. I swapped out the cheap yellow shapers for heavier Italian shapers, then dumped all of the cutters I was using for insert heads. I think I dropped almost $7k on heads. I think the total was about $20k that year in upgrades.

One of THE BEST investments I've made. As long as I don't push the knives too far, I only get tear out in the nastiest of material on either stick or cope.

As far as I'm concerned, I was doing it completely wrong, and I'm still making a ton of compromises. The next phase of improvement will be getting an S4S machine to stick and size in a single pass, a rotary door clamp to keep the cycle times up but increase clamp time, and lastly in automatic coper where I don't need a backer or I can run pairs of rails. It'll be another $50k to make that happen, but going off of what I've already done, it'll be smart money. Three years ago I was doing a bit over $100k on my own, with one other person we should be over $300k this year. Three years ago I was in 2500' of rented space, now I'm in 8000' that I own.

You gotta spend money to make money. I'm not killing it, but I'm pushing the ball forward and I'm super proud of where my business is, making doors no longer a choke point was a huge contributor to that.

[Mel Fulks]

I could have been clearer. Using the small cutters with less tha 10,000 rpm might work on some woods. With real hard woods what can happen is the cuts look look fine,but a little too much wood is left and they can't be clamped enough to close the gap.

[jack duren]

I think it was maybe 2005 we figured for every employee they should turn $100,000. 13 employees at 1.3 mil...Some will turn less others more..This was at Regency Cabinet Co. Bates City. Mo

Of the 13, three were owners, one owner made counter tops, one sales and one answered the phone and ordered There were two full time installers and one hardware guy. The rest were in the shop...Two 24 foot box trucks.

We did 10 sets a week and 7 of the 10 sets payed all bills and the last three were pure profit...

[Martin Wasner]

I think those are still pretty accurate numbers Jack, even today. I work the hours of one and a half people and then some.

My last real job was at a shop with 50 guys. Five houses a day on average, the record when I was there was 9. I heard we did 25.7m the one year. I don't know if that accurate or not though. That place was a machine at cranking out custom residential cabinets.

[Darcy Warner]

Martin- you need a p22 weinig for running s4s material. Great little moulders for what they are. I have had a couple and regret selling them.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin- you need a p22 weinig for running s4s material. Great little moulders for what they are. I have had a couple and regret selling them.

Been looking for a Weinig quattromat. Nice small footprint. Feed rate is a little pokey though

[Darcy Warner]

Been looking for a Weinig quattromat. Nice small footprint. Feed rate is a little pokey though

P22 is nice machine. Little older, but very good machines. One with a universal head turns a small footprint machine into something really capable.

Honestly, 50 to 60 fpm is plenty for 2 guys to run.

My Hydromat will run 250 ft/min, be all I can do to keep the deck loaded and someone stacking at 140 ft/min.

To push high speeds you need jointed heads.

[Martin Wasner]

I think that quattromat runs at 26 ft/min. Enough to keep one guy hopping, but not fast enough to justify someone else tailing it.

[andy photenas]

Wow ! what a great bunch yall are! thanks for all the input. the numbers you guys are saying are so much more then i make now...... im alone in my shop and self taught so i have a lot ot learn but 100k is like 5x the value of what i am using now (i have 5 shaper tables most are small this is so i dont need to do setup on most jobs i use mortis and tenon faceframes so one bit for each of those cuts and then 3 for doors)! i cant see any way to get that kind machine in my shop.
ppl keep talking about a cope backer for the profile side but i cant understand why you would do that on purpose ever? i always do all copes first then all profile cuts so the profile cut takes off the blow out from the cope. I always oversize all the width of my stocks but that is because i need to run most things at least 2-4 times to get acceptable profile cuts the way im doing it now.

[J.R. Rutter]

I think that quattromat runs at 26 ft/min. Enough to keep one guy hopping, but not fast enough to justify someone else tailing it.

26 FPM is about right for an unjointed moulder and a single operator. I set up a lower outfeed table that allows 5 strips to self stack. While the sixth is running, I walk down and push the stack to the side and/or move them to a taller stack. The outfeed table is also the infeed for the crosscut station.

[J.R. Rutter]

Wow ! what a great bunch yall are! thanks for all the input. the numbers you guys are saying are so much more then i make now...... im alone in my shop and self taught so i have a lot ot learn but 100k is like 5x the value of what i am using now (i have 5 shaper tables most are small this is so i dont need to do setup on most jobs i use mortis and tenon faceframes so one bit for each of those cuts and then 3 for doors)! i cant see any way to get that kind machine in my shop.
ppl keep talking about a cope backer for the profile side but i cant understand why you would do that on purpose ever? i always do all copes first then all profile cuts so the profile cut takes off the blow out from the cope. I always oversize all the width of my stocks but that is because i need to run most things at least 2-4 times to get acceptable profile cuts the way im doing it now.

Why M&T face frames? Unless you would lose customers by doing it with pocket screws, I don't see a downside.

I cope first, and use a backer piece to eliminate/minimize the blow out on the outside edge. My system right now makes doors to finished size except for the tiny bit of material removed by bumping the top/bottom on an edge sander to get rid of glue squeeze-out and flush the joints.

I would make shaper tooling your next purchase (research carefully before committing) and work on an outboard back fence setup to run the sticking cuts.

[Martin Wasner]

26 FPM is about right for an unjointed moulder and a single operator. I set up a lower outfeed table that allows 5 strips to self stack. While the sixth is running, I walk down and push the stack to the side and/or move them to a taller stack. The outfeed table is also the infeed for the crosscut station.

I agree. That's about what I'm running for a feed rate on the shaper, much faster and it's tough to handle on your own. It leaves a nice cut too.

I've always wanted to set up an outfeed table that would easily stack up a whole mess of parts. Maybe a photo eye and an electric scissor table or something that drops down a step every time a part comes out. Stacks of five or six are nice to handle without fumbling and dropping things though

[Darcy Warner]

26 fpm is crawling. You should be able to run 50 to 70 fpm good quality from a good set up.

No real need to tail if you build a sloped out feed table and have it drop to a box.

I would like to have an unloader deck to go with my feeder deck on the Hydromat.

I run my shaper at 45 to 75 fpm for most common operations. You need tables.

[Martin Wasner]

No way would I get the cut quality I want with a shaper running that fast.

I've got infeed and outfeed tables on my main shaper. Or do you mean something different?

[jack duren]

It really needs to only be as fast as the operator can control it. We cut the stiles to length, push in, power feed and put on the cart. Keeps one person pretty busy...

The system most shop in KC use...http://www.weaver-sales.com/ ...

[Darcy Warner]

It really needs to only be as fast as the operator can control it. We cut the stiles to length, push in, power feed and put on the cart. Keeps one person pretty busy...

The system most shop in KC use...http://www.weaver-sales.com/ ...

US concepts door machine is the only way to go anymore.
One guy can shape all the parts in a few minutes with one machine.

[jack duren]

If it's one machine with multi options stacked with one motor I'd pass...Is it?

[Darcy Warner]

https://youtu.be/oVNiXKGLcL4

Pretty sweet machines for cabinet doors.

[peter gagliardi]

One brand of door machine- I don't remember the brand name is known in the industry for having very small bearings on the spindles- like Delta HD, or Powermatic 26/27 small- hardly a machine that would last any time in a production environment.

If you need one of these machines, it might be more cost effective to just source them already made.

Definitely a timesaver, but a one trick pony, so you better be a cabinet door making shop.
I think a quality shaper in a shop that doesn't specialize in doors only, would be the better investment.

[andy photenas]

thanks for sharing, again its so great to talk to ppl that know much more then me about this stuff. im fairly sure shaper bits are the next upgrade here now to choose some....!

[J.R. Rutter]

https://youtu.be/oVNiXKGLcL4

Pretty sweet machines for cabinet doors.

Especially if you do lots of arched tops. Otherwise, i like power feeding stacks of sticking while dimensioning to exact width vs clamping/unclamping and manually pushing through each piece and having less control over part width.


One brand of door machine- I don't remember the brand name is known in the industry for having very small bearings on the spindles- like Delta HD, or Powermatic 26/27 small- hardly a machine that would last any time in a production environment.

Unique had light duty spindles originally. They may have gotten more robust over the years since i looked at them. One of my machinery reps once joked that this is why they added sanding heads to their feed through multihead shapers...

[Martin Wasner]

Unique had light duty spindles originally. They may have gotten more robust over the years since i looked at them. One of my machinery reps once joked that this is why they added sanding heads to their feed through multihead shapers...

As far as I know, they haven't. You have to step up to a HSK spindle before you get anything beefy, and then you're adding a massive amount of cost to it. The shape and sand machines that could be an issue since there's some load, but coping is a fairly light duty operation.

I'm pretty sold on that PMK coper, that seems like the ticket for my operation.

[Darcy Warner]

Only issues I have had with one of their machines is the darn air lines and fittings, heck it's like that on anything with air lines. Whirlwinds are the worst.

[Jared Sankovich]

Wow ! what a great bunch yall are! thanks for all the input. the numbers you guys are saying are so much more then i make now...... im alone in my shop and self taught so i have a lot ot learn but 100k is like 5x the value of what i am using now (i have 5 shaper tables most are small this is so i dont need to do setup on most jobs i use mortis and tenon faceframes so one bit for each of those cuts and then 3 for doors)! i cant see any way to get that kind machine in my shop.
ppl keep talking about a cope backer for the profile side but i cant understand why you would do that on purpose ever? i always do all copes first then all profile cuts so the profile cut takes off the blow out from the cope. I always oversize all the width of my stocks but that is because i need to run most things at least 2-4 times to get acceptable profile cuts the way im doing it now.

Even my cheap grizzly equipment can cope and stick on one pass using decent braised 4" cutters (unless I accidentally leave the shaper at 6000rpm)

On a side note , If you find clients that want thicker doors and deeper profiles, the 8pc freeborn passage/exterior door sets (or equivalent from another manufacturers) have enough versatility to do left and right copes (on cabinet doors under 1.250" thick) for less money that a left and right cabinet set.

1.150" door stock 5/8 deep groove, 5/8 x 5/8 profile, single pass. 25fpm on the sticking feeder. 5hp grizzly shaper.
368919

368920

[Robert Engel]

Andy,

I am one who can talk as a small shop operator.

I admire your perfectionism, but it shouldn't be necessary to make that many passes. What type of wood is this? What brand of bitset are you using?

I've found the wood species has a lot to do with the tear out issue. I remember a hickory kitchen I did I lost sleep over (it was a nightmare).


I've seen "tear out free" rail/stile bits advertised like this one (http://sommerfeldtools.com/new-chip-free-cove-rail-stile-set) might be something to look into.