Opinions on buying a used sliding table saw

[Patrick Kane]

Ive had a curiosity towards sliding table saws for a few years. Mostly because of how i loved working with a jessem mast r slide on my first table saw--a used delta contractor saw. The motions and work flow clicked for me, and i always imagined a real slider was 100x better. Space, budget, and existing layout always prevented me from even considering one. Im currently in a basement chocked full of machines, and i do not want to rework all my ductwork, electrical lines, and machines to fit one. However, im looking at a move within the next few months and see it as an opportunity to pick up a slider. I always shy away from new unless i absolutely have to. I like a 'deal' and with enough patience, just about everything comes up on the used market. With that said, buying a slider isnt like waiting for a unisaw to pop up locally. From searching forums and craigslist daily, these are pretty rare birds. Two, i havent seen two of the same machine for sale in the last two months. From reading old threads here, i have in my head that i want a Felder 700 series, and preferably a saw/shaper. I know SCM/Minimax is also popular here, and i wouldnt say no to one of their machines. Part of my problem is i have never used a slider. I pushed the table around on an old Holz-Her in a local shop and that is the extent of my experience. It increases the likelihood of error when you arent knowledgeable on the subject, which is why i want to ask you all for tips:



Simply, am i making a mistake with wanting to save money and buy used? I feel like i need to stick to low volume one man shops or ideally some rich hobbyist machine. I know these machines can get expensive in a hurry with parts/labor.
Are 3 phase machines significantly less than single? Adding in a phase perfect or similar means i need to get one hell of a deal on the original purchase.
Has anyone moved their saw or shipped one? I shipped in my 12" jointer and 20" laguna bandsaw very affordably and easily. I perceive sliders to be very fragile machines and their size worries me. Comments on difficulty and cost would be appreciated.
Should i hold out for the shaper/slider combo, or pull the trigger on the first machine that checks most of the boxes? I havent used a shaper, but ill be in a 2 car garage and gaining capability in one footprint is appealing.
Is it stupid to get a slider stroke less than 8'? Im a 90:10 solid wood to sheet goods user, but with a new house come new vanities, closets, and maybe even kitchen cabinets. In a 2 car garage, i dont know if i can effectively fit and use a 10' machine. Is it as simple as changing workflow, or is it the main limiting factor? This comes back to not having full comprehension of machine workflow. Do you straightline the 8' length of a sheetgood first before crosscutting, or can you begin crosscutting first? There happens to be a felder 700 shaper/saw with an 80" stroke within day driving distance of me, which is why i ask.
Other than here, woodweb, CL, and Felder owners group, are there sites i should be checking?
Is it dumb to think i can get a good condition machine for $4-5,000? 5 would probably be top of my budget if it was a shaper/saw machine. Closer to 4 for just the saw. I havent seen enough market comps to glean what the going rate is. I saw a felder 700 in michigan sell for $3000 or so, which i thought was a steal, and ive looked at a tricked out 700 saw/shaper in dallas sit and sit for two months. Generally, does the 50% rule apply to euro machines?

[Dan Friedrichs]

Some of your questions are hard to answer - e.g. 3-phase might or might not be a better deal, depending on what you find available for sale. No one (including you) could answer that until you have actual options to compare.

In terms of shipping:
I had household movers move my C3-31. These guys were not "riggers" and completely underestimated the difficulty of this. They priced it as though it was just another 1,000 lbs of household goods. They spent an hour trying to get it up on 4-wheel dollies before giving up, finding a pallet and pallet jack, renting a lift-gate truck, shuttling it into the semi truck, then repeating this to get it off the truck. I was sweating the whole time, because they were not being very careful or professional. Yet, once it was in my new shop, the slider hadn't been bumped out of alignment even 0.001". So: lower-end Hammer slider (not as heavy-duty as the Felder), manhandled by amateur movers, and no problems in the end. I wouldn't worry about shipping.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I would opt for the saw/shaper, it's fantastic to have a shaper with a sliding table.

Mine has a tilting spindle and a flip up stock feeder (it's a Hammer B3 Winner).

I have the smaller slider that will crosscut a sheet of plywood, I'm mostly a solid wood user however the 4 foot capacity is enough for almost all uses.

If you need to straight edge something longer use a jig on the sliding table.

I doubt if 3 phase will lower the price much, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a good condition used machine.

Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

There are so few saw shapers out there in the used market that it is hard to deal in comparison to separates. A three phase sliding saw of commerical quality, SCM, Casadei, HolzHer, Griggio, Casolin, etc is pretty cheap for the build. 3-5K and some work is doable but probably not as a first try at used. You need to know enough about machines and the accessories to avoid big mistakes. A flip stop for a discontinued extrusion can set you back $500. A new motor, 500-1000. I'm a hard core used guy and have less than 5K in a SCM SI16 including Mac's clamps but if you count the mistakes made over the years gaining the experience it would be more. You need about $1,000 for an rpc to handle the three phase and you should budget 500-1000 extra over the used price to allow for problems.

The best deal if you can find one in a saw shaper might be a Knapp. they were by far the heaviest build but haven't been made for about 10 years now. They are orphaned in the used market but much of their electrics are standard stock modules. The shaper spindles and router option must be intact but if so, the Knapp machines are a good deal. More likely will be Felder 7 or 700 series, or Minimax. If you are patient, you can be rewarded but do your homework. Dave

[Bill Adamsen]

I'd be skeptical that a ten-foot slider would fit and be usable in your two-car garage. Eight foot sliders and shorter tend to be specialized machines for residential or specialty use (a higher percent are single phase), and a 100" slider is pretty usable for sheet goods.

Ease of moving is highly variable. Dan mentioned having residential movers successfully move his machine ... I would be nervous about that. Certainly you've seen Shipping Wars, would you want any of those folks managing the moving of your machine? I purchased a slider used and moved it myself. I had a Lull fork at my end to assist, but the other end was far more challenging. My machine (a Knapp) weighed a ton and a half, a lot of precision metal to manhandle without causing damage. Lastly, if you have to disassemble any electronics to move, you will probably want to do that yourself and mark carefully for reassembly.

While I don't think your expectations for price (value) are unreasonable, have you thought about a track saw and using the space saved for assembly?

[James Baker SD]

I have a 9' slider in a garage workshop, but my garage may be deeper than typical.

[johnny means]

I've purchased a well used SCMI and Martin for 3k each. Both were just under 20 years old and came out of nice sized cabinet shops. Both were solid performers and still had years left when I sold them. IME the consumer and prosumer models tend to show wear early in their life and take a bit of work and care to keep true.

[Jim Becker]

Buying used isn't necessarily a problem, but you may be forced to consider "not lightly used" machines from commercial shops and/or have the 3 phase challenge. And many of the commercial units are going to have that larger 10' slider which is hard to fit in many personal shops. (my 8'6" MM slider requires 19' end to end to accomodate the full throw of the wagon)

What you might want to do is "get friendly" with the reps at Felder and with Sam Blasco, who reps for SCM/MiniMax. If they know you are interested in a pre-owned slider, they can keep their ears out for you when they have a customer who wants to upgrade, etc.

[Frank Drew]

I have the smaller slider that will crosscut a sheet of plywood, I'm mostly a solid wood user however the 4 foot capacity is enough for almost all uses.

I also worked mostly with solid but my smaller saw-only slider could cross-cut up to 53" and with the 36" or so capacity rip fence I could manage just about any sheet goods work that needed to be done, apart from high-volume production which wasn't what I did anyway.

Even "half" sliders like those are huge work-savers and quality-improvers, IMO.

[Patrick Kane]

First off, thanks for the responses. You all confirmed some things and brought up new challenges to consider.

As i suspected, the shaper combo is going to be something i need to try for. I primarily use my jessem router table for profiles and pattern routing, which are two things the shaper would excel at. I want the ability to run bigger profiles that simply arent available or possible on a router table. My router table has all the bells and whistles that jessem ever offered, so i think i can get $800-1000 for it.

Yes, the track saw is a great tool, and i have the TS75 now. This may be my ignorance, but i expect the slider to outperform my track saw in precision, speed, repeatability, and overall quality of cut. If the slider cant do these things, then i guess its case closed and ill stick to the TS75 and unisaw. I have pretty high expectations for the performance of sliders, despite never operating one before. Once i complete the trim in my next house, i assume i will sell my kapex and MFT3 to further put towards the slider purchase - $1500ish.

David, i wish i had your knowledge, but i dont. You bring up the exact points im afraid of. Accessories, unknown wear, deferred maintenance etc are all areas where i could easily lose my shirt. All reasons why im initially zeroed in on minimax or felder machines that are 10-20 years old and out of one man shops or hobbyist homes. I simply dont know enough to go in for the dirt cheap sliders out of closing shops. I am also very pro-used, but that is because i havent had a bad experience yet. Im trying to continue the trend with this one.

One unanswered question i need help with is concerning the stroke length. As you all mentioned, its tight with a full sized slider in a 500+/- sqft space. Not to mention when you add in a 12-16" jointer, 20" planer, 20" bandsaw, drill press, roubo, cyclone, assembly table, and most likely my unisaw too. Is it that limiting to have a 5-7' stroke? Straightlining rough lumber sounds awesome, but i use my jointer today and its not the end of the world. In the sheet goods realm, is it utterly stupid to work with a <96" slider? This is a machine i cant/wont upgrade for 5-10 years after buying, so i dont want to shortchange myself 1,2,3' of stroke if it makes or breaks the efficiency of the machine.

[Dan Friedrichs]

This may be my ignorance, but i expect the slider to outperform my track saw in precision, speed, repeatability, and overall quality of cut.

You may need to consider this point very carefully if it's a deal-breaker for you.

There is really no reason a track saw can't be as precise and repeatable as a slider. For instance, I often mark a measurement on a board and cut to that line using the slider, but objectively, it would be easier to align the guide rail of a track saw to my mark than it is to line up the slider's blade to my mark. On the other hand, a good crosscut fence with stop is obviously repeatable and precise...

Cut quality? It's a table saw. Do you find your unisaw produces vastly superior cut quality to your track saw? Does it matter?

[David Kumm]

If space is an issue, you may regret walking around the long slider every day unless you use it every day. My favorite sliders are either 10' or 36". 36" handles all but the longest ply cuts as most cabinet dimensions are less. If you are looking at 10-20 year old Felder and MM it is very important to feel warm and fuzzy about the hobbiest and usage. All the issues related to used commercial are just as problematic with that age Felder and MM. Both are great machines but not as heavily built as true commercial so the issues may be similar. Don't get any electronics that are proprietary circuit board and keep in mind that the motors will be at least as likely to fail as commercial because of the small frame sizes used on Metric motors in those machines. Not trying to dissuade you but make sure you either buy low enough to allow for some repairs or pay enough for low usage. Dave

[Jim Becker]

It sounds like you may also benefit from something like a 16" J/P to replace a separate jointer and planer. That was actually my first Euro machine purchase for my ~600 sq ft shop and it, combined with the 8'6" slider is a great team. I never edge joint. Never. Flatten, thickness, cut one edge on the slider and then rip to width, also on the slider wagon unless it's something very narrow.

Relative to the saw/shaper, that's a great idea, especially since it will kick things up for you relative to profile sizes for milling. But a shaper may not eliminate the need for your router table if you also need to run small cutters for the work you do...they perform best at higher speeds and shapers rarely get up there in RPM, from what I've seen.

[Joe Hollis]

It sounds like you may also benefit from something like a 16" J/P to replace a separate jointer and planer. That was actually my first Euro machine purchase for my ~600 sq ft shop and it, combined with the 8'6" slider is a great team. I never edge joint. Never. Flatten, thickness, cut one edge on the slider and then rip to width, also on the slider wagon unless it's something very narrow.

Relative to the saw/shaper, that's a great idea, especially since it will kick things up for you relative to profile sizes for milling. But a shaper may not eliminate the need for your router table if you also need to run small cutters for the work you do...they perform best at higher speeds and shapers rarely get up there in RPM, from what I've seen.

As an owner of a Felder AD741 16" planer/jointer, I can say that in the month I have owned the machine, it's been a tremendous benefit in my 370-ish sq. ft. garage workshop, both from a quality and space saving perspective.

JH

[Darcy Warner]

The 57 or 63 inch sliders are fantastic, my little scmi si12 is way better for me than my si16w.

I hate the long beams. No need to straight line, no new to rip ply, no need for it.

Being able to put a 1" dado stack in the si12, being able to stand in front of the saw and not have to deal with the beam. Great little saw.

[Rod Sheridan]

Patrick, if you're making furniture, the 5 foot slider is great, if you're building 10 foot high stuff for commercial spaces, you need a bigger slider.

With the 5 foot slider you can simply use a plywood board with a "T"' profile moulding on the bottom, I have the profile Felder sell, works great.

One thing you need to consider is that the smaller sliders don't have the sliding table base extending out from the cabinet, they therefore have the ergonomics of a cabinet saw, as opposed to the larger sliders where you have to work around the base protrusion where machining smaller pieces.

Cut quality will be much better than a track saw if your slider has scoring, which mine does, can't tell which is the "good" side when cutting melamine or plywood.

take the time to watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8A3XK3R0I

Regards, Rod.

[James Zhu]

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/502053.html

Someone forwarded this link in the Felder Owner Group, 2006 Martin T60 short stroke slider for $7900.

[David Kumm]

Darcy is right on concerning the SI12. It might be the only saw that would make me give up my Whitney slider. In fact, I think Darcy swapped his for it. Might be for sale though. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy is right on concerning the SI12. It might be the only saw that would make me give up my Whitney slider. In fact, I think Darcy swapped his for it. Might be for sale though. Dave

I wish it was a bit heavier.

It was hard parting with my whitney, probably never come across another one anytime soon, but the longer stroke, better material support, better DC and even the scoring blade are all plusses. I can fit a 12" blade in it and still cut what I could with my whitney.

Having a couple SLR's and a gang rip almost eliminates the need for a table saw in shop.

[David Kumm]

Robinson ET E is still my favorite. If I ever find one with the 52" table, I'll be in happy land. About as likely as winning the lottery. Dave

[Jim Becker]

Keith posted a Felder/Hammer video in the Woodworking Projects forum that uses a short-stroke slider for the project. It was very interesting to see and at least validated in my mind that if I were ever forced into a much smaller shop situation that I could still enjoy the benefits of a slider since I really, really wouldn't want to go back to a North American design cabinet saw again. (personal preference)

[Patrick Kane]

Rod, thanks for the link. The video is incredibly long, but i watched the whole thing. I wish there were 2 dozen more behind it for me to watch and learn from. I think a comparison video series similar to the grizzly videos would be beneficial. Ive read the catalog and i dont have a firm grasp on how the 700s differs from the 700 professional from the 700. Or how the 700 compares to the 500 etc. I see the stroke length differs across the 700's, but im in the dark after that. Same with the 500 versus the 700. Ive read that some of the 500 series have the Hammer internals.

Everyone made me feel much more comfortable about getting less than 96" slider length. I think that is the best decision until i have a proper 1000+ sqft shop one day. Its not like this is the last machine ill ever buy. 5-7' will cover 70% of my needs, im sure, and the other 30% can be covered with my TS75 or ripped conventionally.

Absolutely, the J/P combos have been on my mind coinciding with the saw/shaper. I have an easier time with the saw/shaper, because my usage of the two tools is 80:20 or 90:10. Jointer and planer is obviously 50:50, which means a lot more changeover. Not to mention i routinely use 18-19.5" of my 20" powermatic. I see myself waiting until i have an actual space to deal with before deciding to sell my separates and go with a combo unit. If i can fit a 12-16" jointer and my pm209 in the new place, then that would be ideal. If they cant fit, then they are #2 and #3 on the chopping block behind my 37x2 drum sander. A 20" combo hitting the used market would be enough to convince me to switch.

David, ive heard similar sentiments a few times, which leave me flabbergasted. How does felder or minimax stay in business if they sell outrageously expensive stuff that breaks after 10 years? Ive seen PM66s in local shops that have been beaten like rented mules for 30 years and yet they still run well. Im sensing you either have an insanely high standard for machinery, or first hand experience of running machines very very hard. Your posts are giving me pause when it comes to these new-to-me brands. I would hope that a 12-15k saw will run beautifully for decades under light loads. Heck, i expect a 15k saw to handle moderate/heavy professional use for many years.... If they dont, then either my expectations are off base or these manufacturers dont get many repeat customers.

[David Kumm]

I don't remember saying the 700 Felder or MM will break in 10 years and I don't mean to imply they will. The Felder and MM are a little lighter build than true commercial so hobby use is preferred if you buy used. The PM 66 or Unisaw are much simpler machines and use standard frame motors generally. Parts are plentiful because a million of them were sold. Euro machines over 10 years old are harder to find parts for at a decent price and any machine over 10 years old with electronics has some risk. I do believe the small frame Euro motors are more likely to fail and are for sure expensive to rewind or replace so you need to factor that into your purchase price. If buying new ( which I didn't think you were doing ), the issues are less important since it is always you who are taking care of the machine. Good machines last longer than used cars but you still take some risk. Sliding tables abused, bearings not greased properly, delrin gears jammed up, etc etc. Same goes for commercial machines. Even a used Martin can cost if anything fails. doesn't happen often but it is impressive to pay for when it does. Sliding tables saws and particularly shapers are precision machines in comparison to fixed table machines like the PM 66 or 27 shaper. Therefore you do have to be careful. I've bought about 50 used machines over the years and either you buy really high end, or really good condition, or several to make into one. Dave

[marty fretheim]

There is a 2003 Felder CF 731 S Professional in the Denver Craigslist (Longmont) for 7k. Looks pretty good to me.
I have a Felder saw/shaper with a 8 ft slide and I have only used the full capacity a couple times. Could easily get by with say a 5-6 footer. I have a Felder AD741 j/p also. I have the room for the semi-separates (two machines) but not four. I debated about a full combo before I decided on my set up.

[Mike King]

Yep, check out that Denver cf731. I bought a 2007 cf 741 used through Mac Campshure and that purchase has taken my woodworking, and tool purchases, to a new level. I could not find a reasonable service to transport the unit to me, so I rented a 28 ft box truck and picked it up myself. It was an adventure!

These re machines are not fragile, they are very robust. It is possible, perhaps even easy to knock them out of alignment, but you should expect that it will require learning how to setup and maintain your machine with transport anyway. So join the Felder owners group, search the archives and files section, ask questions, and learn about your new old machine.

i would highly recommend buying used. Many, if not most, of these machines are owned and purchased by hobbiests. They simply do not put enough hours on them, nor abuse them, in a manner that degrades their quality.

it may be a challenge to transport a 2000 lb machine, but if I can do it, you can too!

mike

[johnny means]

I always had my machines moved by on a flatbed wrecker.

[Mike King]

I always had my machines moved by on a flatbed wrecker.
That was the plan with my move. We had been assured that the seller could put the machine in the box truck. However, the machine was too heavy for their tractor to lift, so we had to split the jointer/planer from the rest of the combo machine and load it with the fork lift extensions on the loader portion of the tractor. When I got the machine(s now) to my shop, I rented a Bobcat and had the nephew, who had a bit of an idea of how to drive one, unload the components from the truck into my shop (a space my spouse calls a garage).

Very entertaining.

Mike