Dovetail saw

[Adam Herd]

I am building a coffee table for some friends. The table is made out of ash. There is a chance I may have enough material left over to add a drawer. If I do I want to try to make hand cut dovetails. I haven't made dovetails since high school about 7 years ago so I am pretty rusty. Right now I have a basic miter saw which I am fairly certain came with a miter box. Would this work for cutting the tails and pins? I have watched some youtube videos of how to cut them and the guys on youtube have really nice saws. For a first timer what saw should I use? Should I use the one I have or should I purchase a new one? If I purchase a new one is there a good quality one at a decent price?

[steven c newman]

ehh, could be....
367190
This is what I use..most of the time....
367191
Just an old Disston No. 4 backsaw. Has been filed rip cut. Still has 11 teeth per inch. I rub an old candle along the sides and at the tooth line. Nothing fancy.

[Adam Herd]

ehh, could be....
367190
This is what I use..most of the time....
is that just a basic old miter saw?

[steven c newman]

Yep. 14" long.

[David Eisenhauer]

IMO, dovetails are not so much about the quality of the saw as much as the ability to saw straight to a line. One supposes that quality saws are easier to hold to the line as compared to less well designed/fabricated saws, but any finer-toothed, sharp and correctly set saw (of any price point) should do the job. Practice using your existing saw and see what you think. Drawer dovetails may only be cut in 1/4" to 1/2" thick material and don't really entail that much sawing. If you decide to go the new saw route, but need to watch the $, lots of folks rate the Lee Valley saws as a very good purchase. The amount of $ you can spend on a dovetail saw can vary and is more directly related to your personal preferences, finances and level of interest in woodworking. Without disparaging the LV saws at all, they do appear to be a very acceptable entry level-to-forever saw at a lower cost than other more "boutique" made saws at a higher price. If your existing saw is at least moderately sharp, make some practice cuts to lines, some practice dovetails, then the real deal drawer dovetails and have fun. Your friends will like the result anyway and the worst that happens is when we (the craftsman) rush to point out all of our minute mistakes to folks that neither see nor recognize the mistakes we believe are glaring.

[Hasin Haroon]

The Lee Valley backsaws are very good, and very affordable. Easily a lifetime saw too.
If you can afford a little bit more, I find the Lie Nielsen tapered thin plate backsaws even better, and are priced ridiculously low for what they are - they are cut a bit more aggressively than the LV saws, which have a more relaxed rake and are better for starting cuts for beginners. I would pay the little bit extra and spring for the LN dovetail saw, but be careful not to kink the saw in the cut...thin plates will bend easily.

[steven c newman]

Actually, aside from a LV Info-mercials, it is more about HOW one uses a saw, NOT who made it. Doesn't matter if it is a "Dime Store" saw, or a solid gold one.....if one hasn't an idea how to use it....just a pretty wall decor....

Learn to use the saw you have now....later you can worry about them "Life-time" saws....( mine is older than I am, BTW)

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Adam

I would choose a saw that is about 9 - 10" long. Saws over that can be a handfull. The teeth of a dovetail saw are typically around 14 - 15 tpi. The greater the number of teeth, the smoother the action of the cut. That's about as technical as I will go with you. It's enough to show that when starting out, you want something fairly specific.

In new saws, the Veritas 14 tpi dovetail saw is the best bang for the buck, and very reasonably priced. It is a gentle saw to use - ideal for those starting down this path, and good enough to continue using into the future.

Unless you know a bit about sharpening, or can get someone to do the job for you, I would avoid a used dovetail saw (or one that looks to you like a dovetail saw), since this will take time to find and get up to speed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill McNiel]

For a first timer what saw should I use? Should I use the one I have or should I purchase a new one? If I purchase a new one is there a good quality one at a decent price?

IMHO the answer to all three of your questions is the LV Dovetail saw. BTW- its free shipping time at LV.

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
I learned how to hand cut dovetails with a Zona saw. At the time they were about $5-7 but I see now on the Zona website they look to be about $11. I suggest the 14TPI or 18TPI one.

Maybe not a "lifetime" saw, but a perfectly fine, accurate, inexpensive saw to take you most anywhere you'd like to go in hand cut dovetailing. Guitar builders like them. I noticed that many students at the College of the Redwoods program used them also.

I think the saw itself is less important that getting plenty of practice with it.

Not that you asked, but you don't need a premium marking knife either. An Xacto knife will do just fine.

This is not to say the higher end tools are not worth it. I eased in with decent lower cost tools and then treated the higher end purchases as luxuries that I had "earned" once I got the basic skills and committed to continuing with the craft. Plus, when the time came, I had a better sense of what I wanted in a higher end saw. Good luck,

[Jim Koepke]

I am building a coffee table for some friends. The table is made out of ash. There is a chance I may have enough material left over to add a drawer. If I do I want to try to make hand cut dovetails. I haven't made dovetails since high school about 7 years ago so I am pretty rusty. Right now I have a basic miter saw which I am fairly certain came with a miter box. Would this work for cutting the tails and pins? I have watched some youtube videos of how to cut them and the guys on youtube have really nice saws. For a first timer what saw should I use? Should I use the one I have or should I purchase a new one? If I purchase a new one is there a good quality one at a decent price?

Howdy Adam and welcome to the Creek.

How big is your basic miter saw? If it is a full length saw it might be a little awkward. Many of my first dovetails were made with a 14" miter or back saw.

Do you have some scrap lumber you can use for practice? This would give you a better answer as to whether you need an improvement of your saw before starting. If the saw is a bit rough one can compensate by working away from the lines and using a chisel to clean up the joint.

Otherwise the recommendations for LV or LN saws above are sound advice.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

A fine tooth japanese pull saw will make lovely dovetails. The blade is thin but not prone to kinking. They require little effort to cut so you stay relaxed just watching the line. Much easier to master. You can't then sharpen them but they last a long time. The narrow cut is a great aid to precision. They are not that expensive.

[Don Jarvie]

I have to disagree regarding a good saw. A good dovetail or tenon saw will be light years ahead of any gents saw or other saw. I recommend a LV or LN tenon saw. It's a bit bigger than a dovetail saw and can be used for other applications.

I took a class and watched others struggle with gents saws while my LN went through the wood like butter. Buy the best quality saw you can afford and you won't regret it.

[Jim Koepke]

I have to disagree regarding a good saw. A good dovetail or tenon saw will be light years ahead of any gents saw or other saw. I recommend a LV or LN tenon saw. It's a bit bigger than a dovetail saw and can be used for other applications.

I took a class and watched others struggle with gents saws while my LN went through the wood like butter. Buy the best quality saw you can afford and you won't regret it.

In one way I have to agree with what Don states above.

In another I wouldn't want to discourage someone not to try with less than an ideal saw. Working with tools that are not the latest and greatest can help a person learn how to control the work when things aren't 'perfect.'

jtk

[steven c newman]

Don't you understand, we just can't have a topic on what tools to buy, without getting a LN or LV commercial...

It really does not matter who made the saw.....it is in HOW you use the saw.

A "Gent's Saw" had a little "broom-handle" shaped thing, hard to learn how to grip. The "pistol-grip" style dovetail saws are the better style to learn how to grip, and guide a saw. Easier to control than pushing a dowel rod shaped thing.

[Edwin Santos]

It really does not matter who made the saw.....it is in HOW you use the saw.



I definitely agree with this statement. I'm not sure a Zona saw is the same as a "Gent's saw" despite some similarity in the look of the handle. The Zona cuts on the pull stroke and I always understood the classic Gent's saw to cut on the push stroke.

Listen, I'm all in favor of high grade premium boutique tools. I just hate to imply to a newcomer that they are the price of entry into the craft. As long as your starter saw is not an absolutely frustrating piece of junk, I think there is a case to be made for finding your skills and stepping up the tool ladder to the Ferraris and Porsches of the world when ready.

On the other hand, there are those that seem to believe the higher dollar boutique tools will somehow give them instant skills or at least shorten their technique learning curve which I think is misguided also. This is why I agree so wholeheartedly with your point.

[Derek Cohen]

I am an experienced sawyer, and I could probably cut dovetails with any saw you give me. What will work for me (or you, if you have similar experience) is unlikely to work for someone new to the game. A 14" saw is usually designed for tenons. It is heavy and will feel cumbersome to one without much sawing experience. A dovetail saw, on the other hand, is smaller and lighter, and the chances of gaining control and mastery are greater. Why start someone down a path with a tool that is not appropriate to the task, a saw that even experienced professionals would not use?

I agree that a gent saw is not the best to learn on. It lacks the directional aid of the pistol grip when pushing forward. On the other hand, pulling a Japanese saw is doable. Pulling is more natural than pushing for a straight grip.

The Japanese dovetail saw I would recommend is a Z-saw. They are pretty inexpensive and the quality it high. The Western saw I recommend is the LV because, similarly, you will not find a better new saw at its price. After this you are looking at used saws, and vintage ones usually need sharpening, which will add to the cost anyway (I am not expecting a beginner to sharpen their own saw).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Todd Stock]

Zonas come in both push and pull - depends on the model number. Also very easy to turn the blade around on most of the thinner saws. The 35-380 has an 18 tpi, 8" blade, 1-3/4" depth of cut, and .015" plate set for a .020" kerf with a push stroke. At $11 delivered from Amazon Prime, it's cheap and once broken in (a couple dozen cuts in maple knocks the burrs back from manufacturing), tracks decently and cuts well. I prefer a coarser tooth for dovetailing, but the Zona gets a young/broke or retired/fixed income hobby woodworker into the cheap seats with enough money left over for a dog and a beer. Yes - they can also be resharpened, but at 18 tpi, it's not fun. If money is a serious barrier (i.e., more than skipping a few designer coffees during the week), the Zona is within just about anyone's budget limitations, although as mentioned there are better choices if $40 (Z-saw dosuki) to $70 (Veritas dovetail) is within budget.

[Prashun Patel]

Do you have enough material to do a couple practice drawers on?

Good dovetails require three things (IMHO in this order): good chiseling, good marking, good sawing.

While a proper saw and proper saw technique and accurate marking can improve the ability to cut to the line - which ultimately leads to FASTER dovetail cutting, with a sharp chisel and time, you can fix mistakes in sawing and marking if you have done both conservatively.

If you are only doing one drawer, and are uncertain if you will do handsawn dovetails in the future, invest your effort in getting and sharpening a good 3/8" or 1/2" bevel edge chisel, and use your miter saw, just saw conservatively.

Also, make your pins wide enough so that you can mark them easy with a knife or pencil.

[Jim Koepke]

Also, make your pins wide enough so that you can mark them easy with a knife or pencil.

Also remember that when marking the second piece from the first (whether it is pins or tails first) the marks are in the part that you want to keep.

That is why it is sawing to the line and not through the line.

jtk