Is posting videos on youtube showing second-rate skills or results fine with you?

[Simon MacGowen]

I have come across quite a number of "tutorial" videos on youtube with good intentions, trying to share hand tool techniques with everyone, that are in my opinion below the fine woodworking quality. The most common examples are those showing the finished joints with tiny or unsightly gaps, including one coming from a well-known, very skilled woodworker and another from what was usually paid online content (the latter shot professionally). Both, I believe, could produce a perfect joinery if they had taken the time to retry and reshoot.

Does sharing a technique video (free of charge) with sloppy results bother you?

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

I have come across quite a number of "tutorial" videos on youtube with good intentions, trying to share hand tool techniques with everyone, that are in my opinion below the fine woodworking quality. The most common examples are those showing the finished joints with tiny or unsightly gaps, including one coming from a well-known, very skilled woodworker and another from what was usually paid online content (the latter shot professionally). Both, I believe, could produce a perfect joinery if they had taken the time to retry and reshoot.

Does sharing a technique video (free of charge) with sloppy results bother you?

Simon

My employer would not want me discussing my opinions of what gets posted to YouTube specifically, but in general... https://xkcd.com/386/

[Frederick Skelly]

I wouldnt share sloppy results - I'd be embarrassed. But I increasingly see people posting "weak" woodworking content on the web.

[Patrick Chase]

I wouldnt share sloppy results - I'd be embarrassed. But I increasingly see people posting "weak" woodworking content on the web.

I think that one key challenge is that to avoid posting weak content you actually have to realize that your content is weak.

[Mel Fulks]

It bothers me to the extent that if I find them lacking I go to another one. But I confess to starting with the short ones. It also bothers me that those seeking help here often seem to go with majority opinion. But ,on the other hand, some of the real experts here insist on rattling on for a whole paragraph before giving us the magic SECRET that makes it quick and easy.

[Patrick Chase]

But ,on the other hand, some of the real experts here insist on rattling on for a whole paragraph before giving us the magic SECRET that makes it quick and easy.

Or they don't tell you the secret at all :-)

A classic example from a number of years back: "You need to learn how to use a double iron".

[Pat Barry]

of course not. If I don't like what I'm seeing I just click awya and its forgotten. On the other hand, I appreciate that there is lots of content to choose from. I might even watch (a bit) if Patrick posted something ;)

[Normand Leblanc]

of course not. If I don't like what I'm seeing I just click awya and its forgotten. On the other hand, I appreciate that there is lots of content to choose from. I might even watch (a bit) if Patrick posted something ;)

You beat me at it !!!

[Bruce Page]

Like Pat, I just move on, life’s too short. We are bothered entirely too easily today.

[Doug Hepler]

Simon,

At one time, it bothered me a lot. When I first started serious woodworking I tried to learn from the web (mainly woodworking forums). I'm a bit embarrassed to admit it, but I was very naive about the wide variety of motivations people have for posting things on the internet and about some people's willingness to pontificate about matters of which they knew little. I was taken aback by the petty squabbles about pins vs tails, the best adhesives, finishes, tool badges, dust collectors, sharpening methods, etc. So, yes. I was also naive about woodworking TV. It really bothered me that I couldn't get the results that the guy in the plaid shirt was getting.

Things got better when I realized that learning how to winnow the wheat from the chaff was actually an important part of learning this craft. My reliance on the internet went way down and my use of professionally produced material went up. There actually is a factual basis for a lot of what we do. Eventually I was able to start acting on intelligence (knowledge) as guided by experience. And I learned who the BS artists are. Fame is not much of a credential.

Doug

[Jim Koepke]

If it is possible to learn from one's own mistakes should it not also be possible to learn from the mistakes of others?

My videos are as low budget and likely mistake prone as any. Though I have received unpleasant comments from an occasional viewer, others send messages saying they have learned or enjoyed something.

Besides, some of it is amusing.

Here is one of my videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apLzrpsdcK0

It was made using planes rehabbed as part of this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242156-Old-Molding-Planes-and-the-Rehab-Enthusiast

Hopefully some who read the thread and watched the video saw that if some old fart can do it, they should be able to get results.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

Are the videos labeled how to make the perfectly fitting X & Y joint?

If they executed the joint and you understand the idea behind how, I don't see why a person should be bothered. It's up to the individual to then execute to the best of their abilities.

For me a lot of things are new and I take what I can get for free (beggars can't be choosers) I understand humans are not perfect and I think a slight gap just shows the human side of things.

I showed someone at work the other day how to do something, during the training I made a slight mistake, but at the end of the day my Co worker understood the process and was able to compelete the task at hand.

My point is (at least in my world) a lot of training is done in haste and things don't always go perfectly, but if the recipient understands the basics thoroughly then you've accomplished your goal.

[phil harold]

Does sharing a technique video (free of charge) with sloppy results bother you?

Simon
I have been watching the The Woodwright's Shop since 1979
the technique is more important than his sloppy results
while his work may be rushed to compete a project in 27 minutes
the work process is valuable because, it demonstrate the steps of how and why it is done

[Frederick Skelly]

I think that one key challenge is that to avoid posting weak content you actually have to realize that your content is weak.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

[Frederick Skelly]

of course not. If I don't like what I'm seeing I just click awya and its forgotten. On the other hand, I appreciate that there is lots of content to choose from. I might even watch (a bit) if Patrick posted something ;)

+2. What say Patrick? Maybe a demo of how to set up a #55?

[Noah Magnuson]

In some cases, mistakes are just part of the work and even professionals make imperfect joints. In other cases it is rushed and part of the character of the show (Roy). In most cases though, I believe they are only taking the care needed to prove the method and intentionally aren't shooting for perfection because videos of this nature are targeting beginners. Beginners usually want realistic, achievable standards and probably don't want to be discouraged by seeing perfection at every turn.

If you are watching more advanced stuff or professional project-level demonstrations of commissioned or paid work, you will see a long series of videos where a lot more care and explanation of how to avoid problems occurs.

Now, if you paid for the video and the production quality and narrative is poor, I could see a complaint. Otherwise click on by.

[Frederick Skelly]

I enjoyed your videos Jim. But that doesn't really surprise me - I usually learn from your posts here. Thank you!
Fred

[Mike Lemon]

I doesn't bother me at all as long as they talk. Ten minute demonstrations/builds without uttering a word drive me nutty.

[Mark Stutz]

The thing that really drives me nuts is watch someone demonstrate something that is blatantly unsafe. Although this usually happens with tailed screamers, I've even seen some chisel techniques make me shudder. I hate to think that someone completely new to WW would try that with disastrous results.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

If it is possible to learn from one's own mistakes should it not also be possible to learn from the mistakes of others?


Agree, if only viewer can recognize the mistakes. When I started I could not and felt into many traps, like many others, it seems... until I came across videos of Paul Sellers and The English Woodworker and alike. It was professional stupidity on my side, naive me indeed...

So, watch all excellent videos first, before watching just good ones or worse! :)

[Malcolm Schweizer]

There is one guy in particular who appears to have a following and he builds stuff with dovetails going the wrong way, and a complete lack of balance in the design. It makes my skin crawl... then I get over it... mostly.

[Brian Holcombe]

There's one guy whose always wearing a nice shirt and working on the floor, watch out for him.

[Mark Stutz]

There's one guy whose always wearing a nice shirt and working on the floor, watch out for him.

If it's the same guy I'm thinking of, I usually just go right past to the next one.:D;)

[george wilson]

Do you mean sloppy joints on a triangular,small table that he ALREADY made? When you can see how bad joints are on TV,they are indeed bad!:)

No one expects anyone to make a whole project in less than 30 minutes. The videos I laugh at the most are when Roy and friend jam and buckle saws,and slam their ends into the brick floor while showing VERY unsuitable sawing positions. Oh yes,and the sloppiest clenching of nails I've ever seen. Tired little noodles of steel! THAT really,there is no excuse for. You don't see that sort of things when my former journeymen come on to demonstrate veneering,etc. Or,how to saw 1/16" veneer with a hand saw. Marcus is always right on the line.

[Simon MacGowen]

Very interesting and varied perspectives from all of you.


As many of you do, I quickly change channel or video when I dislike anything I see there. But I cringe when I come across videos like these:



A guy showing how to cut a tail marked the tail on a cross grain board. The worse were a few comments (obviously they had never cut a dovetail) showering praises on his video. Luckily, a few others pointed out what went wrong there.
Someone was paid (by a publication) to do a tutorial video (presumably in a studio) and the result was a gappy joint. Frankly, how many of us, newbies or not, needed to pay to learn how to cut a gappy joint? The paid content was released for free viewing on YouTube. The whole episode needed not be reshot, but a new joint should be cut and presented. If you, as the master or teacher, couldn’t deliver a “perfect” result based on what you just showed, why would I, a viewer, think I could do better than you?

It is fine to make a mistake and show the viewers how to fix it. Norm Abram did that, Paul Sellers does it and Rob Cosman, too, live. But one better known woodworker (who became ”famous” by posting lots of videos) completed a joint with a gap and then showed the technique of fixing it by using a mix of glue and sawdust. This kind of fix will only fool a non-woodworker.



Edit - I have also seen articles that show the completion of one perfect joint, but not the whole assembly. It is not difficult to cut just one perfect mitre joint or one secret mitre dovetail but the acid test is when you put the four mitres together. An article about installing inset doors without showing the door installed in a carcase with even reveals is not a good enough article for me, regardless of how well the photographs present the technique. When it is my money (I am the boss), I prefer the walk the talk to the talk the talk.


Simon

[john zulu]

I do post utube videos. The videos are made with the best of my ability and I do actually make sure that the audience learns something. Some will nit pick on your content but it really depends on intention of the video. To educate or to make money? Depends on the author.

Even for welding videos I do notice that some of the welds aren't great but they are out of focus on the most part.

[Bill Berklich]

Buddha said "even the student can each the master" not everyone is a master at woodworking and most woodworkers are not masters at media, presentation or public speaking hence the wide variations. You aren't paying for so why worry. You might even learn something. Personally I appreciate the simple fact that someone put themselves out there to be attacked and ridiculed by self style masters. I applaude them.

[Prashun Patel]

It does not bother me at all. I think, how generous that he or she is sharing. It is probably educational to someone with less skill than you.

I don't like when people post unsafe practices or when people criticize others' right to share.

Instead of criticizing, post something better. Let the market decide.

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with Prashun. And even some of the untalented have good flourishes. Anyone who works in view of the public needs to develop good flourishes ,it's part of good salesmanship. Who among us ,while in a diner, has not thought " these pancakes don't taste all that good ,but that guy sure can flip pancakes!"?

[brian zawatsky]

When I was a kid I worked on a framing crew, and the joke was that all it takes to be a carpenter is a pickup truck and a ladder rack. Apparently, all it takes to be a woodworker is a dovetail saw and YouTube channel :cool:

[Patrick Chase]

+2. What say Patrick? Maybe a demo of how to set up a #55?

Maybe. See my comment above about how we avoid posting weak content though :-).

[Patrick Chase]

There's one guy whose always wearing a nice shirt and working on the floor, watch out for him.

I hear that guy hires "session woodworkers" to do all the hard moves in his videos. It's "Milli Vanilli but with chisels" :-):-):-)

[steven c newman]

Maybe it is a good thing I don't plan on doing a video.....

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe it is a good thing I don't plan on doing a video.....

Too bad Steven, they are kind of fun to do.

Maybe if a bit of spare time comes my way a video on stopped rabbets will be made. Cheap camera, check… poor lighting, check… don't forget to turn the music down when the camera is on.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

I hear that guy hires "session woodworkers" to do all the hard moves in his videos. It's "Milli Vanilli but with chisels" :-):-):-)

Hah! :D That would make for a very entertaining video!

[Pat Barry]

Maybe. See my comment above about how we avoid posting weak content though :-).
I'm sure your content will be stellar Patrick. Perhaps a shop tour. 1st episode - sharpening. Review all your various setups and walk us through the ins and outs of diamond paste with an example chisel tuning. Can't wait to see it!

[Hasin Haroon]

It doesn't bother me personally. Kudos to them for doing their best. If I don't like someone I just I just avoid watching their videos of people and don't divert the internet traffic their way.

What really bothers me is when they post videos of them building someone else's design without crediting the original maker. For example, a woodworker whose videos show up a lot on searches (but whose skills appear very amateurish) posted a long video on how to make winding sticks. The problem is, the design he chose for his sticks were EXACTLY like Paul Sellers, who released a very detailed video of himself making the winding sticks. The new poster basically did exactly what Paul did, in even less detail, but didn't credit Paul at all and shared his video on various platforms like it was his own conception. Enough of my rant.

[steven c newman]

I work too slow for videos, I don't talk loud enough, nor fast enough. Don't have the camera stuff needed. Nor the room.

I doubt IF most would want to see me working......might be a tad too boring? It would get to the point where I would be working FOR the camera, and not towards the work.

IF I ever get dumb enough to try a video....I would want it to be the best work I could do....I would rather just sit at my bench, and relax.....and maybe cobble a few things up.

Besides...I don't own a Plaid shirt....

[Brian Holcombe]

My videos stand as proof that you can also wear blue oxfords for woodworking videos.

[Patrick Chase]

My videos stand as proof that you can also wear blue oxfords for woodworking videos.

You need a synergistic personal brand to tie all of this together. Something like "the renaissance financier" (I have no idea what you do/did as a day job, but you're overdressed and from NYC and I'm intellectually lazy, so let's go with the obvious stereotype :-)

[Ted Reischl]

Nope, videos with poor results do not bother me at all.

Besides, what are you going to do? Commission a YouTube WoodWorking Police Panel?

[steven c newman]

There are some here that would self-appoint themselves as such.....

[david charlesworth]

Certainly not.....

The damage will be done to beginners who don't realize they are being shown c**p.

David Charlesworth

[Edwin Santos]

What if you picked up a book and didn't like the author's writing style, content or grammar? Would it bother you?

Or would you just put the book down, and move on to other authors you prefer? I'm sure the answer is the latter, and I don't quite see why YouTube is any different.

I've picked up a surprising amount of useful techniques and information from YouTube videos. Sometimes just inspiration. It's cost me nothing but my time so I have no business complaining.

We live in a fantastic age compared to ..... not that long ago.

[Edwin Santos]

Certainly not.....

The damage will be done to beginners who don't realize they are being shown c**p.

David Charlesworth

Indeed, but perhaps the presence of some degree of poor information or even misinformation is an unavoidable by-product of an age where a breathtaking amount of good info is available for free.

Anyone, anywhere (with an internet connection) can teach themselves almost anything. Even the Ruler Trick (which is absolutely mustard when executed properly IMO)

[Mel Fulks]

This thread is making me remember some of the craft and cooking segments on early TV. You heard the host keep saying the make a highboy segment was "coming up". Finally they would roll out a cart with grocery store orange crates ,saw,hammer,nails ,can of varnish ,brush, and "of course you'll need pen and paper to write your wonderful wife a note" .
From the other stage side more beautiful girls would be rolling out ...a completed high boy! SEE YOU TOMORROW !!

[Simon MacGowen]

Certainly not.....

The damage will be done to beginners who don't realize they are being shown c**p.

David Charlesworth

Not just to beginners, I am afraid, David.

Some people may even find this useful or helpful...it is free anyway:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Hand-Cut-Dovetails-for-Dummies/

(http://www.instructables.com/id/Hand-Cut-Dovetails-for-Dummies/)"Buyer beware" does not apply to goodies free of charge.

Edit: At least the author did not use sawdust and glue to cover his track! Bonus point for that.

Simon

[Pat Barry]

Not just to beginners, I am afraid, David.

Some people may even find this useful or helpful...it is free anyway:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Hand-Cut-Dovetails-for-Dummies/

(http://www.instructables.com/id/Hand-Cut-Dovetails-for-Dummies/)"Buyer beware" does not apply to goodies free of charge.

Edit: At least the author did not use sawdust and glue to cover his track! Bonus point for that.

Simon
Thanks for posting the instructables link!

[Brian Holcombe]

You need a synergistic personal brand to tie all of this together. Something like "the renaissance financier" (I have no idea what you do/did as a day job, but you're overdressed and from NYC and I'm intellectually lazy, so let's go with the obvious stereotype :-)

:D I'm fairly certain that it is my personal brand at this point!


Not just to beginners, I am afraid, David.

Some people may even find this useful or helpful...it is free anyway:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Hand-Cut-Dovetails-for-Dummies/

(http://www.instructables.com/id/Hand-Cut-Dovetails-for-Dummies/)"Buyer beware" does not apply to goodies free of charge.

Edit: At least the author did not use sawdust and glue to cover his track! Bonus point for that.

Simon

Second Paragraph:

"When using dovetails for a joint that requires strength, end grain must be used. Side grain was used in this instructable because it was for demonstration purposes only. The same steps and techniques will work with end grain dovetail joints." - Tomatoskins on Instructables.

[Patrick Chase]

"When using dovetails for a joint that requires strength, end grain must be used. Side grain was used in this instructable because it was for demonstration purposes only. The same steps and techniques will work with end grain dovetail joints." - Tomatoskins on Instructables.

Wow, you actually read that? I commend your intestinal fortitude.

I cannot understand why anybody would choose to cut DTs into long grain for any purpose? Perhaps this individual is not familiar with the concept of a "rip cut"?

Perhaps they did it for the lulz (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/lulz).

[Pat Barry]

Wow, you actually read that? I commend your intestinal fortitude.

I cannot understand why anybody would choose to cut DTs into long grain for any purpose? Perhaps this individual is not familiar with the concept of a "rip cut"?

Perhaps they did it for the lulz (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/lulz).
OMG. It's not necessary to rip everyone! Just let it go and go back to the sharpening thread and rip Brent Beach some more.

[steven c newman]

Depends on the size...
367204
Everything is relative, right?

[Simon MacGowen]

Thanks for posting the instructables link!

The comments made in that link WERE the icing on the cake, like "... indeed a great example of good craftsmanship," "First rate!"

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

:D I'm fairly certain that it is my personal brand at this point!



Second Paragraph:

"When using dovetails for a joint that requires strength, end grain must be used. Side grain was used in this instructable because it was for demonstration purposes only. The same steps and techniques will work with end grain dovetail joints." - Tomatoskins on Instructables.




The second paragraph was not in the original instructions and it was added AFTER someone pointed out what was wrong with his presentation.

Another bonus point for not leaving his stuff as was. (Had he recut a new joint in the proper grain orientation, while showing the "pins" first technique and put it next to the "demo" piece, he would have received my full kudos!)

Simon

[William Fretwell]

If the video does not address the topic right away but goes off on a tangent I just leave. If they dally, I leave. Actually I have lots of reasons to leave so I do not see too much rubbish. Sometimes it's so bad it's funny and I stay just to see how bad it gets, then I tell them how bad it is.
One thing you learn from the videos; there are some very good books out there and most of the video people are not readers.

[Simon MacGowen]

Sometimes it's so bad it's funny and I stay just to see how bad it gets,


Someone sure can find a hand tool version of something like the quality of this advice (jump to 1:05):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGfW7zi4yUA&feature=youtu.be

Still, since it is FREE, you can't complain much, can you?

Perhaps, YouTube should consider allowing viewers to "cancel" their views so theirs don't count towards the number of hits which some "producers" depend on as a source of income.

Someone should do a video showing us how to cut a dovetail holding the tail or pin board in the air with one hand (no clamps):D and ... with a hacksaw blade (seriously, before you laugh, that was seen used in a now defunct magazine article!).

Simon

[Mike Brady]

I suspect anyone who posts their work on YouTube thinks what they did is pretty terrific. I find it true in-person also. There is another side to the coin also, and that is the person who immediately points out all the mistakes and flaws in otherwise acceptable work. The problem with YT is that the bad stuff shows up just as long as the good and there is no filter to change that situation. I'm not familiar with any of the videos that show pros screwing up. Those would be worth a watch.:cool:

[Simon MacGowen]

I suspect anyone who posts their work on YouTube thinks what they did is pretty terrific. I find it true in-person also. :cool:

Agreed. I also suspect, as David rightly pointed out about c**p, some viewers think what they saw (as long as they were free) is pretty terrific too.

Simon

[Edwin Santos]

How about turning this ripfest positive?
If you head over to the main/General forum, there is a sticky thread where members are invited to post links to their favorite WW videos, most of which are hosted on YouTube. I think even the most expert critics amongst us will find some inspirational work, worthy of accolades. Add to the thread with some links to videos you've found to be excellent.
Or better yet, produce one of your own. Seriously.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm not familiar with any of the videos that show pros screwing up. Those would be worth a watch.:cool:

I've seen some. I can't remember where, but I've definitely seen them. Those are extremely useful because they typically then show how they work their way around the mistake, which can have more practical value to viewers than does a perfectly executed work. One recent non-video example that springs to mind was Derek's errant mortise (IIRC) in his table build.

[Simon MacGowen]

Those are extremely useful because they typically then show how they work their way around the mistake, which can have more practical value to viewers than does a perfectly executed work.

Yes, Derek Cohen does not take short cuts.

Two came to my mind, who could do both, fixing mistakes and producing perfect or close to perfect results: Tage Frid (whose DVD, using power tools, is not online) and Paul Sellers (free subscribers can see certain of his masterclass clips).

Another, forgot his name, a retired editor from Fine Woodworking, shows how to do cabinet doors. Not a long clip but he shows step-by-step and the finished doors are what you could expect to see from people like the two Davids (Charlesworth and Savage). I am inspired only by the works of those -- amateurs or not -- who know their stuff. Crude work or techniques are not my taste. (Edit: Life is too short in my shop for any of those.)

Anyone who likes to be inspired differently, be my guest.

Simon

[Nicholas Lawrence]

How about turning this ripfest positive?
If you head over to the main/General forum, there is a sticky thread where members are invited to post links to their favorite WW videos, most of which are hosted on YouTube. I think even the most expert critics amongst us will find some inspirational work, worthy of accolades. Add to the thread with some links to videos you've found to be excellent.
Or better yet, produce one of your own. Seriously.

+1 Life is really too short.

[Alan Schwabacher]

What if you picked up a book and didn't like the author's writing style, content or grammar? Would it bother you? ...


That is the relevant comparison, and I think the distinctions are also important. A book generally has a publisher who has the responsibility to make sure these things are up to some standard. This is not the case with self-published books, and there's a reason most of us read mostly books from reputable publishers, despite the fact that self-published books could be excellent and cheaper.

Youtube has almost exclusively self-published content. If you don't know the reputation of the individual who made the video, there is no simple way to tell whether the material presented is reasonable or not. Comments help a little, but they also can be swamped by unreasonableness. Finding a person or group of people having the relevant expertise to evaluate the video makes sense, but does require that that expertise be confirmed somehow.

That's what critical threads such as this one can do. They are not the most pleasant type of thread, but they are important.

[Pat Barry]

It's interesting that the loudest critic's have no content to be reviewed. I suspect they may be fearful of comments they would receive.

Note: professionals usually have better production capabilities, including editing, to make their published work virally mistake free. Amateurs on the other hand give us more of the raw, unedited and less produced, results.

[Simon MacGowen]

Interestingly, I have yet to come across anyone who complains about the crappy tools they find at a store a tool maker themselves. Or, any movie-goers who regret paying to see a bad movie a movie-producer themselves. Next time when I receive a bad service, I'd remember to keep my mouth shut...because I have never been a server or a restaurant owner. Oh, I must also renew my magazine subscription even though I am not happy with its decreasing quality...I have never been a publisher and I am, therefore, not qualified to judge.:rolleyes:

Simon

[Frederick Skelly]

It's interesting that the loudest critic's have no content to be reviewed. I suspect they may be fearful of comments they would receive.

Hi Pat,
I think I get what youre really saying - that we Neaders really can be a critical lot. You're right and its fair to call us on it.

Now stepping on my soap box to address your specific comment above. Id like to suggest one reason some of us dont post to Youtube: because we dont need/want the attention. I dont think thats true of everyone who posts videos. Not by any means. There are people who genuinely want to pass on what theyve learned (think Jim Koepke or Dave Weaver). There are also people who simply enjoy creating and editing a video - it's a creative outlet/hobby or even a form of artistic expression for them.

But a personal gripe for me is that here are many people who post to Youtube just because they enjoy the celebrity. ("Lookit me, lookit me, lookit me now.") This happens on a number of other social media like Twitter. (Heck, you can argue it happens right here on SMC from time to time.) It is these attention seekers that I object to, because I seem to find errors, safety issues, etc more often in their video content. But of course, as others have already said, it's free and I can always click past it - so what am I complaining for? :D Ok, stepping off soap box now.

Best regards,
Fred

[Caveat: Folks, these are only my personal opinions, based on observation and conversations with frequent social media users. I freely admit that I have no "hard data" to back them up and that YMMV.]

[steven c newman]

Wonder how a video ( or three) from Ishitani Furniture would fare with the above "critics"?

[Prashun Patel]

discouraging people from posting is mean spirited in my humble opinion. We are in an age where students are able to teach and learn at the same time. I follow a few neo woodworkers on YouTube and on podcasts. I find almost all of them humble and willing to admit mistakes and self effacing. To criticize is to misunderstand and mischaracterize the experience and to underestimate the viewing public.

Cry about it as you wish. I am learning a good deal in this age and hope it continues and that the nay sayers learn to correct individual comments and be positive.

[Bill Berklich]

discouraging people from posting is mean spirited in my humble opinion. We are in an age where students are able to teach and learn at the same time. I follow a few neo woodworkers on YouTube and on podcasts. I find almost all of them humble and willing to admit mistakes and self effacing. To criticize is to misunderstand and mischaracterize the experience and to underestimate the viewing public.

Cry about it as you wish. I am learning a good deal in this age and hope it continues and that the nay sayers learn to correct individual comments and be positive.

outstanding observations, I feel you are correct, thank you

[Simon MacGowen]

Wonder how a video ( or three) from Ishitani Furniture would fare with the above "critics"?

I suppose his videos do not feature any of these:

- double wedging tenons ALONG the grain of the mortised board (cracks? sawdust & glue, remember?), or
- advising people to sharpen on ANY cinder block (never saw that? You ain't seen nothing.)
- there is always a smoking buddy as a shop assistant (don't ask if the shop has any No Smoking sign, who cares?)
- using a vise to fine tune a WELL-CUT tenon (a shoulder plane is for relieving shoulder pains only).

This "SPIRITED" thread has run long enough (too long for some;)). Someone (not me) should start a new one entitled: "Is it fine to post articles or videos that would INSPIRE you with their rudimentary skills or craftsmanship (however defined) -- criticisms and/or independent thoughts absolutely N-O-T allowed!!!)

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

I suppose his videos do not feature any of these:

- double wedging tenons ALONG the grain of the mortised board (cracks? sawdust & glue, remember?), or
- advising people to sharpen on ANY cinder block (never saw that? You ain't seen nothing.)
- there is always a smoking buddy as a shop assistant (don't ask if the shop has any No Smoking sign, who cares?)
- using a vise to fine tune a WELL-CUT tenon (a shoulder plane is for relieving shoulder pains only).

This "SPIRITED" thread has run long enough (too long for some;)). Someone (not me) should start a new one entitled: "Is it fine to post articles or videos that would INSPIRE you with their rudimentary skills or craftsmanship (however defined) -- criticisms and/or independent thoughts absolutely N-O-T allowed!!!)

Simon

I agree with Prashun,

I view the videos as a glimpse into another person's process, they often espouse on their process so that their videos are not 15 minutes of silent woodworking (I have that niche carved out for myself, :D). I don't expect many are going to hedge every comment they make with passive language and so it often does come off as expertise, but in their shoes they're simply providing their process for you to take or leave.

Youtube has provided some excellent content.

[Jim Koepke]

Youtube has provided some excellent content.

Especially if you are fond of cats. :cool:

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

I agree with Prashun,


Youtube has provided some excellent content.

Good to know.

It so happens I agree with myself -- that I will get inspired only by good work, including some of yours. I will not let anyone on this forum or elsewhere convince me that I need to bite my tongue even when I see c**p (oops, sorry David. I can't find a better word.)

I look forward to seeing someone create a new thread in which everybody agrees with everybody (and I promise I will bite my tongue there, there only).

As I said, anyone who likes to be inspired differently, be my guest. I will not attempt to convince anyone to stay away from any materials, crap or otherwise, they enjoy.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Also, you're going to complain about receiving criticism!?! I don't begrudge you're having stated your opinion, the internet is an open forum, but you might respect that you are receiving opinions both agreeing with and contrary to your own.

Where/in which post of mine did I complain about that???:confused: I do not see any opposing or different comments made in this thread as criticisms. They are all opinions, however worded, to me. If anyone is taking offense of my comments as criticisms of them, they are imagining things! They, not me, have to adjust their perspectives, if so.

I encourage exchanges of opinions. I have only been giving examples of the bad things I have seen to support my position. I did not even label anyone's post mean-spirited, did I?

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

I should have added more smiley faces, my comment was meant to be lighthearted. :D :p :D

Anywho, I edit my post since my comment apparently lacked necessary context.

[george wilson]

The only youtube I have participated in is the 6 part film we made in 1974 about making a spinet and a violin.:)

[Patrick Chase]

The only youtube I have participated in is the 6 part film we made in 1974 about making a spinet and a violin.:)

...and with that George drops the mic and struts off the stage. Well played.

For those who haven't seen the video in question, it's very much the opposite of this thread's subject. Unfortunately the copy I had a link to has been taken down.

[William Fretwell]

My only video experience was demonstrating a product I designed and have manufactured. Only my hands are visible, it was shot professionally with voice overs in English and French by pro's. The editing, polish and results are worth every dollar, I would not hesitate to do it again. A U tube version would have dragged my product backwards not propelled it forwards.
So my advice, get some help from pros, listen to their advice or better yet just let them do their job, as I did.

[george wilson]

The film wasn't made as a you tube,but someone years later posted it in 6 segments on you tube.

[William Fretwell]

Technical issues of shooting and editing aside most Utube video makers simply don't know what the viewer want's to see. The makers seeking celebrity, (or imagine they are an instant celebrity) drone on about themselves for most of the video and do little. They can't view their video in a critical way.
There are some excellent video's like the hands showing and voice explaining how to change the broken $7 keyboard on my Blackberry.
Only the posters name will gain celebrity.

There is a poster in Eastern Canada who dismantles tools very critically and makes 'stuff'. He uses the word "scutum" as a sign of approval for some bearing or other. You never see his face but clearly he is well educated and qualified to comment. He has a huge following based on his knowledge and humorous dismantling of tools, some of which he puts back together and sends to a lucky viewer.

There is a world of difference between content providing and celebrity seeking videos.

[Pat Barry]

I've been watching the video of a shipwright from a link I found in the General Woodworking forum and I'm addicted to watching this guy work. A mix of hand and power tools. Check it out

Here it is.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?254064-Tips-from-a-Shipwright-Check-this-guy-out!

[Nathan Johnson]

I've been watching the video of a shipwright from a link I found in the General Woodworking forum and I'm addicted to watching this guy work. A mix of hand and power tools. Check it out

Here it is.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?254064-Tips-from-a-Shipwright-Check-this-guy-out!

I just finished this series and loved every second of it. Now I want to make a boat.

[Simon MacGowen]

discouraging people from posting is mean spirited in my humble opinion. We are in an age where students are able to teach and learn at the same time. I follow a few neo woodworkers on YouTube and on podcasts. I find almost all of them humble and willing to admit mistakes and self effacing. To criticize is to misunderstand and mischaracterize the experience and to underestimate the viewing public.

Cry about it as you wish. I am learning a good deal in this age and hope it continues and that the nay sayers learn to correct individual comments and be positive.

Please show me one single post from ANYONE, not just me, who has expressed in this thread that is "underestimat[ing] the viewing public." You seem to have been misguided by your thinking that anyone who does not like to watch crappy materials (as defined by each viewer) is discouraging the production of ANY (bad or not so good or good) materials.

Either you are over-exaggerating the importance or influence of this thread or the forum itself on Youtube viewers or its material producers, or you are misunderstanding the purpose of this thread. I created the thread not to encourage or discourage the production of anything. Except in tightly controlled countries, one one has such power in the IT world. I am only interested in knowing how people -- woodworkers, specifically -- feel about videos sharing second-class woodworking practice or results. It is that simple, but somehow you think those have had a different take from yours on the videos portraying contents of second-class quality must be "criticizing" (your word, not mine, I see all comments and remarks as stated opinions, nothing more and nothing less).

Any discussion will be healthy as long as it is based on good reasoning. I have given examples of materials (need more?) I found in the public domain which show poor or wrong ways of doing things. They are the materials that I will stay from or will not promote myself. No where in any of my posts made here have I suggested that anyone should stop seeing them or producing them, have I?

Everyone learns differently, and I am glad you are learning a good deal in the way you have chosen, but I do not need to and won't follow your way or for that matter, anyone else's way of learning. In fact, I have come to the stage where I can only learn when I see inspiring work. I am motivated to step into the shop to do some work when I see perfectly or meticulously executed work. Some people will get excited when they see a 2x4 build, be my guest. Nothing is wrong there, but I only use 2x4 for my gardening work. Some will think a tail can be cut without any regard for grain direction, be my guest. But when I cut my dovetails, I cut them the way the boss says, and I am the boss. When it comes to deciding if I should spend time watching a YouTube video, I AM the boss, not the one who produced the video.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

The film wasn't made as a you tube,but someone years later posted it in 6 segments on you tube.

I was just wondering about that as I did not think YouTube has been around for that long. The year I started using YouTube was the same year I moved to my new shop and that should be a little over 10 years -- 11 or 12 years ago.

Simon

[Pat Barry]

I was just wondering about that as I did not think YouTube has been around for that long. The year I started using YouTube was the same year I moved to my new shop and that should be a little over 10 years -- 11 or 12 years ago.

Simon
When did the Internet start for mass availability? You tube is a very recent phenomenon -- mass usage only the last few years.

[Patrick Chase]

Please show me one single post from ANYONE, not just me, who has expressed in this thread that is "underestimat[ing] the viewing public." You seem to have been misguided by your thinking that anyone who does not like to watch crappy materials (as defined by each viewer) is discouraging the production of ANY (bad or not so good or good) materials.

Either you are over-exaggerating the importance or influence of this thread or the forum itself on Youtube viewers or its material producers, or you are misunderstanding the purpose of this thread. I created the thread not to encourage or discourage the production of anything. Except in tightly controlled countries, one one has such power in the IT world.

Whoa, easy there. Even if you disagree with Prashun on this point (and I actually do disagree) there is absolutely nothing to be gained by attacking the volunteer moderators who bring us SMC.

[steven c newman]

Seem to be going down the same path as most "Sharpening" threads here? Time to bury this horse? Maybe just go out and build something using wood, for a change? Usually, I have much better things to do, than sit and watch videos all the time.......unless I get very, very, very BORED.

[Patrick Chase]

When did the Internet start for mass availability? You tube is a very recent phenomenon -- mass usage only the last few years.

Modem-based ISPs were mainstream (AOL/Earthlink/etc) by the mid 90s. Before that you pretty much had to have an academic or corporate "in". I think I was on starting in the mid 80s.

YouTube was founded in 2005 and expanded pretty rapidly, for example Simon's "11-12 years" means he was on in 2005 or 2006. It was well established when my current employer purchased it for $1.7B in late 2006 (note that that was long before the current era of multi-billion-dollar startup "Unicorns").

Absolutely, positively not speaking for my employer, Google.

[Patrick Chase]

I've been watching the video of a shipwright from a link I found in the General Woodworking forum and I'm addicted to watching this guy work. A mix of hand and power tools. Check it out

Here it is.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?254064-Tips-from-a-Shipwright-Check-this-guy-out!

Yep, that's a really good one as well.

The common thread between that and the video of George is of course that they both know their stuff (and know they know it). Where people get into trouble is when their self-perception is totally out of whack.

[Simon MacGowen]

Whoa, easy there. Even if you disagree with Prashun on this point (and I actually do disagree) there is absolutely nothing to be gained by attacking the volunteer moderators who bring us SMC.

Attacking? That is a serious word, Patrick. No one is attacking anyone here. I am simply stating that no one has been underestimating anyone or any material, unless proof is shown otherwise. A broad stroke of brush does no good to any discussion and people, moderators included, should understand that.

Edit: If I had been ever in an attack mode, I would have used sentences like "challenge someone to prove his words," "prove where I am wrong," or whatnot. I am not an attacker in any sense, but I am a strong defender. Some of you may not agree, that is fine with me, too.

Simon

[Prashun Patel]

I didn't take Simon's words as an attack; in fact my words may have been more 'inciteful' to him than insightful. What I meant by underestimating the viewing public is that when I learn on the Internet (whether it's from posts here on SMC or YTube) I usually find multiple sources because it's so easy. I very quickly find out whom to trust.

I guess what I'm saying is that I've found it easy - even when I was a novice - to spot good and bad information, or to parse out good and bad parts. So, I think even neophytes can be quite discerning. We're not 5-years old and believing everything thrown at us.

I don't begrudge someone for criticizing bad advice - or even encouraging people to strive for better, neater, tighter results. But I don't think having second rate skills should be a barrier to posting. If all I saw was top tier work on the Internet, I might never have been encouraged to try myself. The Internet has created an "I can make that, learn that, cook that" attitude that I just think is wonderful.

There will probably always be a tension between the eager-to-post and the seasoned-restrained-experts. I believe the most healthy approach is for the experts to embrace the medium and to correct and guide without discouraging. But I respect too that this opinion may be mine and not yours.

[Patrick Chase]

Attacking? That is a serious word, Patrick. No one is attacking anyone here. I am simply stating that no one has been underestimating anyone or any material, unless proof is shown otherwise. A broad stroke of brush does no good to any discussion and people, moderators included, should understand that.


You're right, I overstated my point.

What I (thought I) saw was a mod stepping in to try to get us to tone things down, and you arguing with him instead of "playing along". Prashun has since clarified that he didn't really have his "moderator hat" on (so not Ex Cathedra (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ex%20cathedra) :-), and didn't see your reply that way in any case, so that pretty much settles it.

How about we all go watch some cat videos?

[Simon MacGowen]

How about we all go watch some cat videos?

Or, for those who love dogs (and woodworking at the same time), they can try the Australian woodworking fellow who always features his dog (forgot the dog's name) at the beginning or end of his show.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Or, Watch Ishitani san's dog wander around in a sweater?

[george wilson]

I used to know it,but now have forgotten it all!!!!:)

[Matt Lau]

Wonder how a video ( or three) from Ishitani Furniture would fare with the above "critics"?

Maybe I'm just an unseasoned amateur, but I like the Ishitani videos?

The puppy clips are especially relaxing when I'm reviewing patient notes after hours.
It's sorta nice to see a guy cutting wood, gluing together, finishing, with no annoying blather or endorsements.

[Rob Young]

Someone should do a video showing us how to cut a dovetail holding the tail or pin board in the air with one hand (no clamps):D and ... with a hacksaw blade (seriously, before you laugh, that was seen used in a now defunct magazine article!).

Simon

Find yourself a copy of "The Precision Handcutting of Dovetails" by Cecil Pierce, if you haven't already.

[Rob Young]

Or, for those who love dogs (and woodworking at the same time), they can try the Australian woodworking fellow who always features his dog (forgot the dog's name) at the beginning or end of his show.

Simon

Bob the Dog

[Jerry Olexa]

Doesn't bother me, but I take them all with a grain of salt....You'll see mistakes or less attention to detail than you would like. But overall, informative.
I always liked Norm Abrams but felt he used too many brads, fasteners when building furniture..I like to build furniture without any fasteners.Just my thought/opinion..
Understand...Shows you are a discerning WWer... :)

[Simon MacGowen]

Doesn't bother me, but I take them all with a grain of salt....You'll see mistakes or less attention to detail than you would like. But overall, informative.
I always liked Norm Abrams but felt he used too many brads, fasteners when building furniture..I like to build furniture without any fasteners.Just my thought/opinion..
Understand...Shows you are a discerning WWer... :)

Absolutely no brads on any pieces I do including bracket feet, EXCEPT jigs or accessories where speed is desirable, shop builds and garden/outdoor projects. If I had to use them, cabinet back panels would be a suitable candidate.

My custom built kitchen cabinets (not by me) looked great in the first several years, but over time, I began to see the filler marks due to their fading or changing color from the sun. That's proof that brad fillers will show up with the passage of time no matter how well they blend in at the beginning. So, brad nailers, I have three, are a crude tool in my shop.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

Back to videos with second rate skills, in another thread someone posed a question about a chisel with a rounded end. About a year and a half ago, someone else wanted to know how to cut a finger catch on a sliding top. Showing it in a video with second rate equipment and skills, it was only the second time this was done by me with the particular chisel, seemed to be a quicker way to answer a question than trying to explain it in writing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZgAS2JJ1mI

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Back to videos with second rate skills, in another thread someone posed a question about a chisel with a rounded end. About a year and a half ago, someone else wanted to know how to cut a finger catch on a sliding top. Showing it in a video with second rate equipment and skills, it was only the second time this was done by me with the particular chisel, seemed to be a quicker way to answer a question than trying to explain it in writing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZgAS2JJ1mI

jtk

Nice! It makes sense that you'd want a chisel with a tip roughly matching the profile of the gouge for that. Not exactly paring though.

[Rob Luter]

If it's done for entertainment value I'm fine with it. "How to make dovetails with a chainsaw" and "sharpening your paring chisel with a file" are usually good for a chuckle. Other than that, I'd rather see folks that know what they're doing. No disrespect to the guys that set up a YouTube channel in the hopes of making a few bucks, but please at least research the subject matter you're presenting. If you choose not to, and some old guy that's been doing this a long time sends you a message schooling you on how to do a given thing the right way, don't get crabby.

[Jim Koepke]

"How to make dovetails with a chainsaw"

They do this on the Barnwood Builders TV program.

It is how the corners of log building are put together. They are cut so there is always a downward slope so water will not sit in the joint.

jtk

[peter Joseph]

I have an issue when someone demonstrates objectively poor advice or technique. I was watching a sharpening video a while ago where the guy finished a bench chisel on a 8k stone and went on to explain the importance of 50 strokes per side on a strop while pushing "as hard as you can." It was a carving tool by the time he finished the flat side. There is no benefit to such content.

Peter

[Rick McQuay]

Youtube is a forum, but with video instead of words only. It takes a lot of guts to put yourself out there and make something in the public eye. There are always people who can do it better. It's also a tremendous amount of work to make a woodworking video, worrying about lighting, sound, camera angles, shot composition, editing, etc. That said, what disappoints me is that so many young people have come to rely on YT as a source for learning. There are many videos from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, created by professionals that properly teach woodworking. For awhile someone was uploading those old videos to YT, and getting shut down within weeks. On the one hand it's piracy and I don't support that but many of those old videos are not available on DVD and not available for purchase (to my knowledge) and it is an opportunity for people to get proper woodworking instruction.

[Jim Koepke]

There are many videos from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, created by professionals that properly teach woodworking. For awhile someone was uploading those old videos to YT, and getting shut down within weeks.

There are two principles at work here. For the above there are copyright laws which an owner has the right to protection of their property. The second, as it pertains to video that some may deem not worth the wasted bandwidth, is the first amendment.

At least amateur hour is free.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Somewhere in the world people are doing things that we consider wrong or dangerous. The net shows all of it good terrible or just so so. I have no idea how you could police it. We just have to do the same that our parents did with us and TV. Try to explain that it is entertainment and everything you see is not real. You will however still have those that jump off the barn wearing a bedsheet cape playing superman.
Jim

[Rob Luter]

They do this on the Barnwood Builders TV program.

It is how the corners of log building are put together. They are cut so there is always a downward slope so water will not sit in the joint.

jtk

Yep. Good show.

[James Waldron]

I have an issue when someone demonstrates objectively poor advice or technique. [snip] There is no benefit to such content.

Peter

Well, at least you got your money's worth. And the poster earned his due from your viewing.

As long as we remember that the Internet does not have an editorial staff, we know to take care in our choice to rely on what we find there. And we all retain the freedom to move on as soon as we recognize that a post is of no or questionable value. If someone were holding a gun to your head and forcing you to watch or charging you a fee to watch, you would have cause to complain. If you choose to watch, for free, it's on you.

I would also offer this thought: if you are so knowledgeable about the topic that you know the content is so wrong, why are you wasting your time watching it in the first place? If you get your edges sharp enough to shave hair, you have no need to be watching basic instruction on how to sharpen. If your dovetails have a sliding fit off the saw, "how to cut dovetails" videos aren't going to improve your dovetailing. If you look a bit farther, there are a lot of other topics that you might learn about without repeating lessons (good or bad) about stuff you have already mastered. But be careful, the new lessons need to be evaluated with care, because they may be wrong and you won't know it until you look into them.

In short, move on, learn, grow.

[Jim Koepke]

I would also offer this thought: if you are so knowledgeable about the topic that you know the content is so wrong, why are you wasting your time watching it in the first place? If you get your edges sharp enough to shave hair, you have no need to be watching basic instruction on how to sharpen.

Yes, my sharpening gets to the point of shaving hair clean and smooth. How ever there still remains a possibility some individual spark of knowledge might be gleaned from watching the techniques employed by others.

No, my hours are not spent bleary eyed watching videos of cute cats sharpening chisels. Just the same, my mind remains open to the possibility of how even a fool may have a gem worth sharing.

jtk

[Rick McQuay]

... there are copyright laws which an owner has the right to protection of their property.

jtk

You cut the part where I wrote, "...it's piracy and I don't support that..." The admonishment was unnecessary.

[Frederick Skelly]

You cut the part where I wrote, "...it's piracy and I don't support that..." The admonishment was unnecessary.

Rick, I think you may have misunderstood Mr. Koepke's intent. (Easy to do, just reading what folks write and not having other cues.) I think he was saying why he thought those good vids were taken down from YT. I dont think he was dinging YOU about violating copyright laws, at all. Jim's one of the nicest, most helpful people on the forum. It would be out of character for him to scold someone here at SMC - he's too polite for that. Go read some samples of his other posts and you'll see what I mean.

Hope maybe that helps.
Fred

[Heck. Jim doesnt even argue with PATRICK! EVERYBODY argues with or teases Patrick! :D :D :D ]

[Patrick Chase]

[Heck. Jim doesnt even argue with PATRICK! EVERYBODY argues with or teases Patrick! :D :D :D ]

Ooh, I feel a burning sensation.

I can't touch this thread with a 10-foot pole now that it's veered into YT takedown policies.

[Chris Parks]

I love Youtube, I think it is the greatest educational source on the internet but if I start watching and the presenter says "What's up Youtubers" or similar it get the finger and I move on. There is some truly awesome stuff there for those who are lucky enough to find it and I think the video reference thread is a great resource because we all have our favorites, Clickspring being mine even though it is not wood work and I don't own a metal lathe and never will. It simply has the best production values and anyone considering doing a video should watch it before starting.

I think any subject gets played out eventually, magazines of a single hobby like wood working are an example of that, exactly how many ways can DT's or M&T etc be shown is one of life's mysteries and leads to bad content as everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

For your viewing pleasure, enjoy....


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCworsKCR-Sx6R6-BnIjS2MA

[Patrick Chase]

It simply has the best production values and anyone considering doing a video should watch it before starting.

The thing with production values is that they mostly reflect skills that have nothing whatsoever to do with woodworking. I can produce a half-competently lit, shot, and edited video, but none of that has anything do with woodworking. Meanwhile certain people on SMC, or formerly on in the case of David, produce stuff that a video snob would consider horribly amateurish, but that is still far better in terms of actual woodworking content than I could do. I sort of get a kick out of it every time David messes up on one of his videos precisely because he doesn't take mulligans.

I'm not competent to evaluate clickspring's skills as a machinist or clock maker, but it's certainly well executed and fun to watch. Two things that he gets right are lightning and angles. His shots highlight the subject matter in a way that consistently illustrates what he's talking about, and that's harder than it sounds.

[Chris Parks]

When he started Clickspring had no experience at video whatsoever so it can be learned, in fact he had no machining or clock making skills either, he bought a lathe in from a hardware store and started to learn everything you see from scratch. Some people have just got it, I will never have what "it" is but I can admire those who do. To me taking the time to learn how to present is what makes a YT video enjoyable, those who learn it are the ones we generally gravitate too and they usually give good advice.

[Jim Koepke]

Rick, I think you may have misunderstood Mr. Koepke's intent.

Thank you Frederick.

Rick, I was not trying to admonish you. My intent was to point out the good folks at Youtube do not have much choice in leaving a pirated video up on their service. Sorry my clipping of your post caused any misunderstanding.

Even though I try not to upset people, on the internet just like the rest of life it sometimes happens.

jtk

[Rick McQuay]

Thank you Frederick.

Rick, I was not trying to admonish you. My intent was to point out the good folks at Youtube do not have much choice in leaving a pirated video up on their service. Sorry my clipping of your post caused any misunderstanding.

Even though I try not to upset people, on the internet just like the rest of life it sometimes happens.

jtk
No harm, no foul. I'm happy that my concerns were unfounded.

I just wish many of those old videos were readily available to the public legally. I've been woodworking since the 80's and I still learn things when watching anyone who is very skilled and able to communicate that skill to others.

My concern about the internet, and it's a bit of a rant, is that more value is placed on repetition than reputation. If a bad idea or woodworking myth takes hold in a forum, on reddit, on youtube, or wherever, it's difficult to dislodge.

[Charles Guest]

No harm, no foul. I'm happy that my concerns were unfounded.

I just wish many of those old videos were readily available to the public legally. I've been woodworking since the 80's and I still learn things when watching anyone who is very skilled and able to communicate that skill to others.

My concern about the internet, and it's a bit of a rant, is that more value is placed on repetition than reputation. If a bad idea or woodworking myth takes hold in a forum, on reddit, on youtube, or wherever, it's difficult to dislodge.

A lot of bad technique and general lack of real craft skills can eventually result in a completed woodworking project with enough time, tools, material, etc. thrown at it. Not much good about that. It puzzles me why would anybody want to watch a video of it, or think that it adds value in any meaningful way.

[Jim Koepke]

No harm, no foul. I'm happy that my concerns were unfounded.

I just wish many of those old videos were readily available to the public legally. I've been woodworking since the 80's and I still learn things when watching anyone who is very skilled and able to communicate that skill to others.

My concern about the internet, and it's a bit of a rant, is that more value is placed on repetition than reputation. If a bad idea or woodworking myth takes hold in a forum, on reddit, on youtube, or wherever, it's difficult to dislodge.


It puzzles me why would anybody want to watch a video of it, or think that it adds value in any meaningful way.

And we are only talking about woodworking. It is the same with television. There are many cases of outright misinformation being broadcast as if it were gospel.

It is often the good is drowned out by the dregs. Quality isn't cheap and everyone seems to be looking for cheap.

jtk

[James Pallas]

"And we are only talking about woodworking. It is the same with television. There are many cases of outright misinformation being broadcast as if it were gospel.

It is often the good is drowned out by the dregs. Quality isn't cheap and everyone seems to be looking for cheap."
jtk

That is why these forums are good places. At least if you suggest chopping dovetail waste with the board resting on your knee you have a chance of someone suggesting that you may not want to do that. Two sides to a conversation is a good thing.
Jim

PS I'm not exactly sure how Jim' s quote looks the way it does it was done as reply with quote

[Jim Koepke]

PS I'm not exactly sure how Jim' s quote looks the way it does it was done as reply with quote

I think sometimes the [/QUOTE] gets clipped in translation.


It can be edited back in

jtk

[James Pallas]

I think sometimes the gets clipped in translation.



jtk[/QUOTE]

The i pad needed a reboot guess it's telling me I need to go back to the bench and give it a break.
Jim

[Steve Tripp]

The Internet and Youtube for woodworking is just like the Internet and Youtube for anything else, to expect any different is not realistic. If I'm watching a video and get new information regarding a technique, I will probably not even finish the video to find out what their piece looks like. If I do finish the video, I don't care if it's perfect or not because it isn't MINE. In the case of the Woodwright's Shop I am always amazed that he can jam as much information as he does into those short episodes, so seeing imperfections and/or mistakes does not bother me because I'm learning about techniques, history and just about anything else that pops into his head during the show (all while being entertained). My stuff is mine and their stuff is theirs and if I see imperfections elsewhere it only motivates me to do better.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I agree with Steve Tripp to a large extent. You tube has sort of become a go to learning source for me on some subjects. I do cringe when I see stupidity. for instance the gent that loaded his cannon and set it off leaving an open can of powder a few feet away to ignite from sparks and explode. For technique instruction, The Woodwright shop is a perfect example. And he has had a few things go awry on air. Learning how they did it is important. the finesse can be had with care and practice. One of the reasons I can't stand some wood working shows, is the assumption that every body knows what the guy is talking about and how to do it. I know I need some basic learning on some machines, but non power tools not so much. I remember one in which the guy starts cutting a clear piece of wood, the scene breaks and then it shows him taking the piece of wood off the saw, but this time the cut off has a knot in it. Wonder what happened?

A fellow near here built a house using mortise and tenon timber frame techniques, but used irregular pieces of trees for the timbers. The roof edge is round, reflecting the curve of the arched tree that he cut down. There were exposed timbers in a Y shape. and other oddities. I just can't imagine trying to engineer those joints. Whether or not they have a few gaps, the work is exceptional

[Jim Koepke]

One of the reasons I can't stand some wood working shows, is the assumption that every body knows what the guy is talking about and how to do it.

+1 on that.

One thing that bugs me is some of the woodworking programs seem to have a full cabinet shop setup while supposedly showing how the home viewer could do this in a weekend.

On another side of this are programs like The Woodwright's Shop and Wood Working for Mere Mortals. Roy Underhill is very educational on hand tool woodworking and Steve Ramsey is a home shop power tool guy. If Steve Ramsey ever used a dovetail in one of his projects it got past me. Likewise it would shock me to see Roy Underhill using a circular saw.

jtk

[bridger berdel]

I have one video on YouTube. No talking, actually no instruction of any kind. Just the work being done. No claim that the work is done in the 'right' or 'best' way or anything like that. The production value is quite low. It was fun to make and perhaps fun to watch. Fortunately, I'm not an 'expert' with a reputation to defend or trying to monetize my online exposure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KleQGHZ7eNI

[Mike Baker 2]

I have a couple of Youtube channels. One is on Traditional Wet Shaving, and the other is a new hand tool channel.
I started the first channel 4 years ago because I got into traditional shaving and wanted to encourage others to try it. I started as a beginner, and made certain folk knew it.
Now I have found woodworking with hand tools, and it is the same focus; a beginner wanting to encourage others to try.
Guitar building and the use of a few power tools here and there will spill into this channel, because that is also something I love doing.
I like to share the things I love doing with others who might be interested, wherever they happen to be. Youtube offers a fantastic opportunity to do that.
But nowhere do I, nor will I ever, claim to be a master at any of it. It's for fun, and to share things I'm passionate about.
Won't ever be hawking the latest tool or offering courses on anything. Profit is not nor ever will be a motive for me. Neither is ego. When it ceases to be fun, it will cease. Until then, I'll keep posting them up.

[Rick McQuay]

A lot of bad technique and general lack of real craft skills can eventually result in a completed woodworking project with enough time, tools, material, etc. thrown at it. Not much good about that. It puzzles me why would anybody want to watch a video of it, or think that it adds value in any meaningful way.

Yeah I'm not at the level yet where I'm going to say that Frank Klausz, Michael Dresdner, Phil Lowe, Sam Maloof, or Kelley Mehler, (to name a few) demonstrate bad technique or lack craft. To me those old videos by professional woodworkers do add value and I do enjoy watching them.
edit; I'm responding to your reply to my post about woodworking videos from the 70's, 80's, & 90's, by professional woodworkers. I'm guessing you were talking about youtube videos but I wasn't.

[Chris Parks]

Clickspring has just put up 20 minutes of video excellence. I will never use a metal lathe but any craftsman would aspire to this level of technique, ability and video making skills.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5FR91ZuUsI&feature=em-uploademail

[Kurtis Johnson]

To answer the OP, yes, to an extent. But I'd rather see the video than not. Often times Paul Sellers discloses he's working with contrary positioning to the workpiece than he otherwise would be for the benefit of the camera. I've not worked in front of a camera but you know this has got to affect quality. You just as often hear this from others, even TV folks such as Roy Underhill. I see the latter as more of a tool anthropologist than a nit-picky cabinetmaker, but interestingly, almost all of his shows are shot in one take! Not the setting for museum-quality work I imagine, so I figure the piece is more or less a mock up quality anyway.