Sources for files?

[brian zawatsky]

I'm in need of some 4" three-square needle files to file a very fine toothed saw. Anyone have a good source for them?

[Patrick Chase]

I'm in need of some 4" three-square needle files to file a very fine toothed saw. Anyone have a good source for them?

Otto Frei carries Glardon Vallorbe, which are good: http://www.ottofrei.com/Glardon-Vallorbe-3Square-Needle-Files-LA2407?custcol15=30

Note that needle files have different proportions (smaller faces, much longer tangs/shanks) than taper files. A 200 mm #2 3-square file is actually suitable for smaller work than a 4" XX-Slim taper file.

[brian zawatsky]

Otto Frei carries Glardon Vallorbe, which are good: http://www.ottofrei.com/Glardon-Vallorbe-3Square-Needle-Files-LA2407?custcol15=30

Note that needle files have different proportions (smaller faces, much longer tangs/shanks) than taper files. A 200 mm #2 3-square file is actually suitable for smaller work than a 4" XX-Slim taper file.

Thanks Patrick. According to Vallorbe's sizing chart, a 200mm file has a 6.5mm face, which is actually larger than the face on the 3" extra slim file that I was filing with. Thanks for the link, lots of good info there too.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks Patrick. According to Vallorbe's sizing chart, a 200mm file has a 6.5mm face, which is actually larger than the face on the 3" extra slim file that I was filing with. Thanks for the link, lots of good info there too.

A Glardon-Vallorbe 200 mm 3-square needle file has a 4.4 mm face. See p. 7 in their catalog (http://www.vallorbe.com/umv/ch/fr-ch/file.cfm?contentid=5154). I have these files and am quite sure that they're not 6 mm.

Which sizing chart did you use?

[brian zawatsky]

A Glardon-Vallorbe 200 mm 3-square needle file has a 4.4 mm face. I have these files and am quite sure that they're not 6 mm.

Which sizing chart did you use?

the one on Otto Frei's website

[Patrick Chase]

the one on Otto Frei's website

I'd suggest Glardon-Vallorbe's catalog (http://www.vallorbe.com/umv/ch/fr-ch/file.cfm?contentid=5154) instead. I have these files (bought from Otto Frei) and can attest to its accuracy. 4.4 mm.

[Normand Leblanc]

I have a bunch of vintage Nicholson 4" xx-fine and I just measured 4.9 mm face.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a bunch of vintage Nicholson 4" xx-fine and I just measured 4.9 mm face.

There's more to it than simply face width of course. Too large of a face merely causes you to "waste" tooth life in the center, but doesn't impact the quality of the work. The "sharpness" of the corners is what ultimately limits how fine-toothed of a saw you can sharpen, and that's where needle files tend to do much better than taper files even if the face widths are comparable. Of course that's also why needle files cost a lot more.

BTW i just went down and measured a 200 mm Glardon-Vallorbe, bought from Otto Frei. 4.4 mm on the nose (I measured the untoothed "blank" as that's how files are specified).

[Normand Leblanc]

There's more to it than simply face width of course. Too large of a face merely causes you to "waste" tooth life in the center, but doesn't impact the quality of the work.

What I've experienced with files is their corners are weaker than their faces but I haven't tried needle files yet.


(I measured the untoothed "blank" as that's how files are specified).

TIL something :)
I measured again on the blank portion at 4.7 mm.

[Todd Stock]

Lee Valley for equivalent Bahco needle file, Craftsman Studio for 4" xxs from Grobet...$2.50. Nicholson US old stock on Ebay.

[Patrick Chase]

Lee Valley for equivalent Bahco needle file, Craftsman Studio for 4" xxs from Grobet...$2.50. Nicholson US old stock on Ebay.

I have several copies of the Bahco, and I'm nearly certain that it's the same file as the Glardon-Vallorbe. The size, toothing, and profile are identical, it's labelled as Swiss made, and the Glardon-Vallorbe appears to be the only remaining file maker in Switzerland (both according to their promotional video on Otto Frei and based on some additional searching that I did).

Lee Valley prices very fairly for most things, but $12.50 is too much for that needle file. I can get the same "Bahco-branded" version for less elsewhere, and I can get the same file from the same factory labelled "Glardon-Vallorbe" for $7.60 to $9.50 (depending on qty) from Otto Frei. For that price they should be selling a Valtitan.

The other major source of needle files is Corradi in Italy, who sell their own brand and almost certainly make the ones labelled "Grobet USA" (the Grobet USA taper files are made in Mexico, and I've had bad experiences with them). LV sells a nice Corradi needle file set elsewhere on their site, but for some reason they don't carry the ones that would be appropriate for saw-filing.

If you want to spend a lot of money and/or you have particularly hard saws, there are always the Vallorbe Valtitan needle files: http://www.ottofrei.com/Glardon-Vallorbe-Valtitan-Three-Square-Needle-Files-LAV2407-180?custcol_of_xc_cut=5. At Rc72 they'll cut even fairly hard metals...

[brian zawatsky]

The Grobet USA taper files are junk, in my experience. I bought a full box of 5" 2XS a couple years ago, and 6 of the 12 were unusable. Won't make that mistake again. As far as taper files go, I think Bahco and Tome Feteira are probably the best on the market currently. Neither of them can touch a vintage USA Nicholson though.

I ordered a couple Vallorbe 140 mm's. My guess was off - the saw is a 19ppi Garlick joinery saw that a friend asked me to sharpen for him. 19pt teeth are TINY!!

on another note, I would never recommend anyone buy that saw. It's klunky, heavy, and the plate is ridiculously thick for such a fine-toothed saw.

[Phil Mueller]

Another source for Glardon needle files is Blackburn Tools.

[Patrick Chase]

The Grobet USA taper files are junk, in my experience.

Indeed. I bought a box of 5" XSlim files from them a while back that were almost as wide as their catalog said their 5" Slim files should be. I had bought the files from their retail arm (b2bprofessionaltools IIRC), but they refused to accept the return. After much debate they refunded my money (while STILL refusing to accept the return) and "fired" me as a customer. A couple other boxes were the right size, but had poorly formed teeth at the points and didn't last long in use. Grobet USA's taper files are not worth it IMO.

Needle files are a different matter. It's actually fairly hard to get a bad needle file. They're basically all made by Glardon-Vallorbe or Corradi as far as I can tell, and both manufacturers have their acts together. Glardon, Grobet-Swiss, Bahco, and Nicholson are all made in Switzerland and are all identical in terms of profile, toothing, dimensions, etc. I strongly suspect them to all be made at the Glardon factory in Vallorbe (I posted pictures on SMC showing just how identical they are a year or so back). Grobet-USA and Corradi needle files are similarly identical and both made in Italy, almost certainly by Corradi.

In terms of corner sharpness I don't see much difference between 150, 180, and 200 mm needle files. I find the larger files to be easier to work with even on my finest saws (20 tpi) and don't bother downsizing. Totally subjective preference though.

[Patrick Chase]

BTW and on a related note, there's lots of interesting-looking stuff showing up on Corradi's online store: http://www.corradishop.com/. These seem relevant to the current discussion: http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_13&products_id=27. Corradis taper more gradually than Glardons, so a slightly longer file might be preferable to ensure enough toothing at the full width.

These (http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_10&products_id=19) also look interesting, though they unfortunately don't seem to do 2X slim tapers.

The shipping is steep for single tools, but becomes reasonable if you buy in bulk. If I hadn't just stocked up on Liogier rasps and rifflers I'd be tempted to give them a try.

EDIT: The Corinox needle files (http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_13&products_id=44) also look interesting. Basically the same idea as Valtitan, but remarkably cheap (6.8 Euros for 180 mm three square)

[Todd Stock]

The Grobet USA taper files are junk, in my experience. I bought a full box of 5" 2XS a couple years ago, and 6 of the 12 were unusable. Won't make that mistake again. As far as taper files go, I think Bahco and Tome Feteira are probably the best on the market currently. Neither of them can touch a vintage USA Nicholson though.

The Grobet USA files are def inconsistent, but at $2.50 each, I order double the quality and cull. Craftsman is happy to accept returns, but there's always a need for small triangular files in the shop, so they get used. I do very little of my own gunsmithing, but the fellow I have do my heavy lifting is happy to take what I won't use. The Geiswein 4" contoured wooden handles with brass ferrules are $1.10 each and handy for these little files...a little CA holds them until the file is toasted, then a little torch work breaks the bond for reuse of the handle and repurposing of the dull file.

TFWW carries a partial selection of Corradis, but does not carry the XXS; www.corradishop.com offers the 4" (as well as the other lengths) in XXS for 2.7 Euro each (and the 4-1/2" XXS for 3 Euro each), but the shipping charge is a flat 18 Euro (FEDEX three day shipping from EU to US...order on Thurs and receive it on Mon). Last order from them was their superb Corradi Gold rasps in 10" 10 grain and 6" 10 grain, which I prefer over the Auriou hand stitched rasps for the work we do shaping necks (if Corradi would narrow the cabinet rasp just a bit and taper a little more, it would totally replace my well-used Aurious 9" x 10 grain entirely) .

If predisposed to order a rasp or two (the 10" cabinet rasp in 10 grain and 6" half round in 10 grain is a nice combo) adding 10 each of the 4" and 4-1/2" XXS will bump the postage up by just 4 Euro over the 18 Euro FEDEX base charge.

[Ron Bontz]

Just a quick note. I have had very good luck with Grobet USA ( Made in Italy ) needle files. I rarely use 4xx these days. Bacho files do not appear to be very consistent either. So it may just be the lowered quality across the board. Best of luck.

[Patrick Chase]

Just a quick note. I have had very good luck with Grobet USA ( Made in Italy ) needle files. I rarely use 4xx these days. Bacho files do not appear to be very consistent either. So it may just be the lowered quality across the board. Best of luck.

As I mentioned above, I'm 99.9% sure that those are made by Corradi. I have both and it's obvious that they're the same design, and the paucity of modern needle file manufacturers strongly suggests they're from the same factory. You may be able to save money by buying the version marked "Corradi" directly from their website. I provided the link in a previous post.

The only oddity with the Corradi needle files is that their taper extends slightly further back than in the Swiss-made quartet (Glardon, Grobet Swiss, Nicholson, Bahco).

[Patrick Chase]

TFWW carries a partial selection of Corradis, but does not carry the XXS; www.corradishop.com (http://www.corradishop.com) offers the 4" (as well as the other lengths) in XXS for 2.7 Euro each (and the 4-1/2" XXS for 3 Euro each), but the shipping charge is a flat 18 Euro (FEDEX three day shipping from EU to US...order on Thurs and receive it on Mon).

Can you provide a link to the XXS files on corradishop? The narrowest I've been able to find are XS (http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_10&products_id=19) (the 4" are 2.7 Euros and the 4.5" are 3 Euros, so I wonder if that's what you're referring to)



Last order from them was their superb Corradi Gold rasps in 10" 10 grain and 6" 10 grain, which I prefer over the Auriou hand stitched rasps for the work we do shaping necks (if Corradi would narrow the cabinet rasp just a bit and taper a little more, it would totally replace my well-used Aurious 9" x 10 grain entirely) .

Yeah, I got a couple of their rasps with my last order. It's clear that CNC-randomized rasps are finally starting to approach hand-stitched. I still prefer my Liogiers, but the differences are no longer huge as they once were. I gave my "second string" Nicholson and Ajax rasps away when I got the Corradis.

What I'm really curious about are their hollow/round irons (http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=53&zenid=795f0a63576098b89cf12e9cbf941887), 50-100 Euros for each hollow+round pair depending on size. Has anybody tried those? Corradi is extremely reputable as a file manufacturer, but not pedigreed in planemaking, so it will be interesting to see how they work out.

[Patrick Chase]

One last Corradi-related note. They seem to be having a fire sale on rifflers: http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=72&zenid=33002b1919f312f428fd47d7d54a452d

For that price I don't see how you can go wrong. It will be interesting to compare them to my Liogier set. I don't expect them to be in the same league of course.

[george wilson]

I haven't needed to buy saw files,but the Mexican Nicholson files seem to have gotten their problems with softness worked out. I bought an 8" Nicholson file months ago just to see if it was hardened,and it is just fine. If they got that fixed,I assume they also get their triangular ones fixed. If you buy a file at Home Depot,where they sell Nicholsons,you can return it if it is not good. The only catch is,I hope they have sold out of the early Mexican ones by now! Doesn't hurt to try one,rather than pay shipping.

[Phil Mueller]

I've been using Nicholson files (purchased from Pete at Vintage Saws), and have had nothing but excellent results.

[Ted Phillips]

I buy my files from Lee at The Best Things (http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/files_rasps.htm). He is very knowledgeable and a great resource.

[Derek Cohen]

I recently bought a box of NOS 1998 (Australian-made?) Nicholson 5" needle files, and have filed several saws from scratch as well as re-sharpened a few others. I am impressed - they are head-and-shoulders better than the 4" XS Grobet I purchased from LN a few years ago. Of course, these are no longer available. I was also given a Liogier 4" needle file about a year ago, which was also excellent, but I cannot find these on their website. Any line on Liogier?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Todd Stock]

I should have checked the link again - def just XS! The Corradi Gold 10 grain is a little slower cutting than the Aurious (although they are wider, so it may be a toss-up), but smoother scratch pattern and none of the handedness exhibited by the Aurious on the bass and treble sides of the neck.

Corradi is selling through Ebay as well, and some of the package deals might be advantageous on cost or shipping.

[Patrick Chase]

I was also given a Liogier 4" needle file about a year ago, which was also excellent, but I cannot find these on their website. Any line on Liogier?


Liogier's milled files appear to be "non-catalog" items: http://www.liogier-france.fr/milled-teeth-files?lang=en. You'd probably have to contact Noel Liogier directly to enquire about that.

IMO the current crop of needle files from both sources (Swiss = Glardon-Vallorbe factory, Italian = Corradi factory) are quite good. Where people seem to be having problems are with taper files (i.e. 5" 2X Slim and similar). Bahco is my current favorite, though their arrises/corners aren't as sharp as I'd like and I have some Corradis coming to try out as an alternative.

Nicholson's needle files (as opposed to their taper files) have been made by Glardon-Vallorbe in Switzerland for some time BTW.

[brian zawatsky]

Patrick - Please do update the thread with your assessment of the Corradi taper files when you get a chance to use them. I'm also not a fan of the wider-than-necessary corner flats on Bahco taper files, but they are at least straight and tempered well.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick - Please do update the thread with your assessment of the Corradi taper files when you get a chance to use them. I'm also not a fan of the wider-than-necessary corner flats on Bahco taper files, but they are at least straight and tempered well.

I bought a half-dozen Corradi 4XS files. They are all reasonably straight, with very slight detectable bend on one or two, but more importantly they are all free of twist. Twist has been an issue with Grobet USA files in particular, and is particularly problematic when you use any sort of tip-mounted angle guide. The arrises (corner flats) are consistently narrow and well-toothed (under-toothed arrises have also been a problem for Grobet USA).

Compared to Bahco 5" 2XS files, which have the same face width, the width of the arrises is more tightly controlled and has a lower maximum. Some corners on my Bahcos are very narrow while others are pretty blunt. The Corradis are more consistent and towards the lower end of the distribution.

I've only sharpened one saw with a Corradi, but from that limited experience it seems to be properly hardened and tempered with good tooth life. I'd say for the price (2.7 Euros) you can't really go wrong, provided you buy enough to amortize the shipping cost.

On a related note, Corradi also makes a pretty nice augur bit file. It's the same one TFWW sells (branded "Iridium").