Five Chisels

[ken hatch]

Not to hijack Pat's post.

Here are a couple of images of bench chisels, some bevel and a couple of firmer. From top to bottom a Narex firmer, a modern 750, Swiss Made Carpenters, Marples Boxwood firmer, LV PMv11. All are close to the same width except the Narex, it is a 12mm. This first image is a plan view and it is hard to tell firmer from bevel edge.

367051

Next the same chisels in profile.

367052

All the chisels are good chisels but the Marple firmer with a Boxwood handle is as close to perfect as I can find for making furniture. It is light with perfect balance and feels wonderful in hand. I wish modern makers would make a copy. Most modern chisels are bevel edge instead of firmer and are too heavy with large handles and poor balance. Of course as always with anything wood....YMMV.

ken

ken

[ken hatch]

I just want to add one thing....In addition to a wonderful feel the Marple chisel is beautiful, it pleases my eye.

ken

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Ken,
What is the advantage of a firmer chisel over a bevel edge other than being tougher? The ability to register the side against the piece you are working on?

[Patrick Chase]

I just want to add one thing....In addition to a wonderful feel the Marple chisel is beautiful, it pleases my eye.

ken

What do you think of the Pfeil ("Swiss Made")?

I have a bunch of their carving tools and like them a lot. They're light and convenient to hand, and I enjoy the feel of the relatively slim octagonal handles. The chisels look to be more heavily made, with ferrules, but not outrageously so.

Some of the very old chisels that Warren has linked are actually closer in construction and heft to the Pfeil carving tools than to any modern bench chisel.

[ken hatch]

What do you think of the Pfeil ("Swiss Made")?

I have a bunch of their carving tools and like them a lot. They're light and convenient to hand, and I enjoy the feel of the relatively slim octagonal handles. The chisel looks to be more heavily made, with ferrules, but not outrageously so.

Some of the very old chisels that Warren has linked are actually closer in construction and heft to the Pfeil carving tools than to any modern bench chisel.

Patrick,

The Pheil chisel comes close to the feel of the Marple, I like the the octagon handle. It is a little big but for a modern chisel not bad. Of the modern makers they and Ashely Iles are the best I've found. I haven't figured out where or why we have lost the utility of the older chisels but somewhere current chisel makers have taken the wrong road. As an example A2 has no place in a chisel because of needing a limiting bevel angle and being slow to sharpen, in a plane iron I can almost see the utility but never in a chisel. Why almost all modern chisels are heavy with big handles and bevels again other than marketing I haven't a answer. The other question is why no firmer chisels are offered along with the beveled edge chisels.

Bottom line the Marples and others from late 19th and early 20th Century can be much better than those made by modern makers, in spite of the fact steel technology has improved greatly.

ken

[ken hatch]

Ken,
What is the advantage of a firmer chisel over a bevel edge other than being tougher? The ability to register the side against the piece you are working on?

Matt,

Mostly just feel.

ken

[Patrick Chase]

As an example A2 has no place in a chisel because of needing a limiting bevel angle and being slow to sharpen, in a plane iron I can almost see the utility but never in a chisel.

I basically agree.

The Blue Spruce A2 *paring* chisels really mystify me, as paring chisels benefit the most of all from finely honed edges and low cutting angles. That's basically a poster-child application for a fine-grained low-alloy steel like O1. A2 bench chisels are also a bit questionable IMO, though that's not as clear-cut of a case.

One exception is that I think that mortise chisels can do reasonably well with "chunkier" alloys, for example the Ray Iles D2 pigstickers. The tip angle limitation is a non-issue for that application, and the extra durability provided by those carbides is welcome.

[ken hatch]

I basically agree.

The Blue Spruce A2 *paring* chisels really mystify me, as paring chisels benefit the most of all from finely honed edges and low cutting angles. That's basically a poster-child application for a fine-grained low-alloy steel like O1. A2 bench chisels are also a bit questionable IMO, though that's not as clear-cut of a case.

One exception is that I think that mortise chisels can do reasonably well with "chunkier" alloys, for example the Ray Iles D2 pigstickers. The tip angle limitation is a non-issue for that application, and the extra durability provided by those carbides is welcome.

Patrick,

I agree, my question as always is why, such nice chisels but the wrong steel,,,I'm with you on mortise chisels, I have the D2 Ray iles pigstickers and they are as good as it gets I expect the D2 is much better than.a high carbon steel for the mortise chisels. Whatever I would hate to give up my Ray Iles pigstickers.

ken

[bridger berdel]

I wonder what role higher chrome content plays in driving the designs of chisel from slim slender and nimble to heavy chunky and thick. Probably automated drop forging is a bigger factor, but chrome steels probably need less surface work than plain carbon steels so get simplified forms that can be ground by automated machinery. I have some really old chisel with delicate elegant forms not found in modern production stuff. I mean I get it- nicely hand forged chisels would cost hundreds of dollars each to make today, if you could even find a Smith with the skills willing to make tools instead of knives.

[Kees Heiden]

I tend to think that the most important reason modern manufacturers like to use A2 for chisel making, is how it behaves perfectly in heat treating. Heat treating a simpler steel is always a bit of a gamble, the steel is just not as stable as something like A2. Warping is a very real possibility in hardening O1 or W1.

[Derek Cohen]

I haven't figured out where or why we have lost the utility of the older chisels but somewhere current chisel makers have taken the wrong road. As an example A2 has no place in a chisel because of needing a limiting bevel angle and being slow to sharpen, in a plane iron I can almost see the utility but never in a chisel.

Ken, A2 has a place in both chisels and plane blades, and it does a very decent job within its parameters. It may have come to popularity among toolmakers for the reason that Kees mentioned, but it has earned its keep.

Many years ago, shortly after Blue Spruce had begin making chisels, I was in the market for some chisels I could dedicate to dovetailing. I liked the small and delicate blades of the BS, but I was unsure whether I wanted A2 steel, for the reason that you cite, above. That is, how would you have a sharp edge when it needed to be 30 degrees? It occurred to me that all my Japanese bench chisels were 30 degrees, and this fact made me reason that the bevel angle was less important than the ability of the blade to do what you wanted, that is pare and cut. I purchased the BS, and I have found them exceptionally fine chisels to use. Theory does not always transfer to practice. You have to use tools to find out if they deliver. The BS deliver. I have been critical of their edge holding compared to White Steel and PM-V11 (my review (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html) of 4 chisel steels is here), but they get very sharp and hold an edge longer than O1. They are a delight in the hand.

The fact is, all chisels that will be hit will a hammer or mallet need a minimal bevel of 30 degrees.

I have a set of Boxwood Marples. I really like their lightness and delicacy. In this, they come closest to the Blue Spruce. Mine are honed at 25 degrees, and only used for paring. I have a set of vintage Stanley 750 (with custom handles, close to Veritas, both of which I like very much, and modified blades, similar to LN). They are also light and nice in the hand, but have a limited endurance in the heavy, hard woods I work. It makes sense to me to just accept this and, like the Marples, hone them at 25 degrees for paring. Horses for courses.

I have a set of Veritas PM-V11 with 30 degree bevels. I like the balance of the smaller ones, but the thicker blades make them heavier than I prefer as they reach above the 1/2" mark (I'd love to see a set of PM-V11 with a reduced blade thickness). Their forte is as an all rounder, and they excel in this disguise. This is the set that live at my bench. They can take more punishment than any other chisel other than my Koyamaichi dovetail chisels (which are not used without a gennou, and therefore are more specialised).

Having made these notes I must add that these are my personal thoughts based on my personal experiences. Yours may vary. I expect them to do so.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks for showing these, Ken. It is helpful to see them all lined up like this for comparison.

The Stanley and the Veritas do appear to have short handles. When we use a chisel with a mallet it is nice to be able to have the left hand holding only wood, not on the ferrule or bolster, and also to have plenty of clearance so the mallet is not hitting your thumb. Also if the handle has a swelling it is most comfortable to hold the fat portion, not centered on a low portion. For a professional these things are important for avoiding overuse problems. The Stanley handle makes my hand hurt just looking at it.

I am with you, Ken. The Marples appears to be the most comfortable and useful, the Swiss made would be usable, the others not so much.

[ken hatch]

I tend to think that the most important reason modern manufacturers like to use A2 for chisel making, is how it behaves perfectly in heat treating. Heat treating a simpler steel is always a bit of a gamble, the steel is just not as stable as something like A2. Warping is a very real possibility in hardening O1 or W1.


I wonder what role higher chrome content plays in driving the designs of chisel from slim slender and nimble to heavy chunky and thick. Probably automated drop forging is a bigger factor, but chrome steels probably need less surface work than plain carbon steels so get simplified forms that can be ground by automated machinery. I have some really old chisel with delicate elegant forms not found in modern production stuff. I mean I get it- nicely hand forged chisels would cost hundreds of dollars each to make today, if you could even find a Smith with the skills willing to make tools instead of knives.

I'm pretty sure you guys are correct. Then give it to marketing to turn a liability into a feature and asset. It is the American way.

ken

[ken hatch]

Ken, A2 has a place in both chisels and plane blades, and it does a very decent job within its parameters. It may have come to popularity among toolmakers for the reason that Kees mentioned, but it has earned its keep.

Many years ago, shortly after Blue Spruce had begin making chisels, I was in the market for some chisels I could dedicate to dovetailing. I liked the small and delicate blades of the BS, but I was unsure whether I wanted A2 steel, for the reason that you cite, above. That is, how would you have a sharp edge when it needed to be 30 degrees? It occurred to me that all my Japanese bench chisels were 30 degrees, and this fact made me reason that the bevel angle was less important than the ability of the blade to do what you wanted, that is pare and cut. I purchased the BS, and I have found them exceptionally fine chisels to use. Theory does not always transfer to practice. You have to use tools to find out if they deliver. The BS deliver. I have been critical of their edge holding compared to White Steel and PM-V11 (my review (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html) of 4 chisel steels is here), but they get very sharp and hold an edge longer than O1. They are a delight in the hand.

The fact is, all chisels that will be hit will a hammer or mallet need a minimal bevel of 30 degrees.

I have a set of Boxwood Marples. I really like their lightness and delicacy. In this, they come closest to the Blue Spruce. Mine are honed at 25 degrees, and only used for paring. I have a set of vintage Stanley 750 (with custom handles, close to Veritas, both of which I like very much, and modified blades, similar to LN). They are also light and nice in the hand, but have a limited endurance in the heavy, hard woods I work. It makes sense to me to just accept this and, like the Marples, hone them at 25 degrees for paring. Horses for courses.

I have a set of Veritas PM-V11 with 30 degree bevels. I like the balance of the smaller ones, but the thicker blades make them heavier than I prefer as they reach above the 1/2" mark (I'd love to see a set of PM-V11 with a reduced blade thickness). Their forte is as an all rounder, and they excel in this disguise. This is the set that live at my bench. They can take more punishment than any other chisel other than my Koyamaichi dovetail chisels (which are not used without a gennou, and therefore are more specialised).

Having made these notes I must add that these are my personal thoughts based on my personal experiences. Yours may vary. I expect them to do so.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I'm sure with the woods you work there are advantages to A2 blades. Not so much for me in this time zone. I could live with the high bevel angle A2 requires because most of my chisels end up sharpened somewhere around 30 degrees anyway, but why. When you add in the sharpening needs of using a grinder and usually water stones to finish. It is just too much hassle for too little or no return. That's the real deal killer for me.

As you stated: What works for me is no guarantee to work for thee. One of the reasons I have so many different brands and kinds of chisels, it takes a lot of frog kissing to find the prince and no one can do it for you.

Thanks for the well thought out remarks,

ken

PS. Because I do not make my living working wood I can indulge my tool jones. If I were trying to make my living working wood I'd have a tenth of the current tools on hand.

[ken hatch]

Thanks for showing these, Ken. It is helpful to see them all lined up like this for comparison.

The Stanley and the Veritas do appear to have short handles. When we use a chisel with a mallet it is nice to be able to have the left hand holding only wood, not on the ferrule or bolster, and also to have plenty of clearance so the mallet is not hitting your thumb. Also if the handle has a swelling it is most comfortable to hold the fat portion, not centered on a low portion. For a professional these things are important for avoiding overuse problems. The Stanley handle makes my hand hurt just looking at it.

I am with you, Ken. The Marples appears to be the most comfortable and useful, the Swiss made would be usable, the others not so much.

Warren,

That's my experience and it tells by which chisels I reach for most of the time. Not in the photo was an A.Iles bevel edge chisel because they are packed in the traveling tool box. I find their handles and balance pleasing to use as well.

The cult of the 750 mystifies me. The socket makes the chisel look heavy and with the short handle it is uncomfortable to use. The one good quality of the chisel is how much abuse the handle can take. I will often use it for the "dirty" jobs around the shop.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

I could live with the high bevel angle A2 requires because most of my chisels end up sharpened somewhere around 30 degrees anyway, but why. When you add in the sharpening needs of using a grinder and usually water stones to finish. It is just too much hassle for too little or no return. That's the real deal killer for me.

Hi Ken

That is a relevant comment.

There are many different sharpening methods, and each person to their own. My only comment about sharpening chisels (or any other blade) is that everything needs to be considered as a system. This means that one needs to match steel type to media to sharpening strategy to woodworker personality.

Our needs are likely different, and this is pertinent. You like the ease of sharpening O1 ... and I like the ease of sharpening as well. In my case, the harder, more abrasion resistant steels offer me more work time. To make these steels sharpen easily and quickly, I hollow grind and hone on the hollow. This strategy is efficient for me, and levels the playing field. It is as easy for me to hone A2 and PM-V11 as you hone O1. The harder steels are not for those who prefer to use media that are unmatched to their requirements.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I'm going to reveal myself to be the clueless amateur I am: I like the Veritas chisels a lot.

Yes, the handles are a pain to replace due to the hybrid socket/tang construction, but I like the ergonomics as-is. I prefer shorter handles (though not as short as the 750 or the stock L-N handles), and I find that the shape enables a very comfortable "low grip" with thumb and forefingers curled around the socket. I personally tend to hold the chisel fairly low for control when using a mallet, so Warren's point about having room for a high grip while chopping isn't a factor for me (though note that this is entirely subjective).

As an engineer I agree with Warren's take that the blade is thicker than it needs to be, particularly close to the tip. The loads that the tool experiences down there simply don't justify this much mass. With that said I don't find this to be much of a limitation the vast majority of the time, and I have other thinner tools at hand to handle cases where it does become a concern.

The point I'm really making is that there's a LOT of subjectivity here, and no tool is going to be ideal for everybody. That's why it's a good thing we don't live in a centrally planned economy :-).

I just can't abide A2 paring chisels though. I run my parers as low as 20 deg tip angle for fine/light work, and I think that moderately hard O1/HCS is the best choice for that. The "low-alloy Cr-Mn" steel in the Narex parers does OK IMO but isn't ideal. Derek is right that overly hard HCS (a.k.a. White) is also problematic in that application due to it's "chippiness", and that's one reason why I prefer western chisels for light hand-powered paring work.