Narex firmer chisel impressions

[Patrick Chase]

One of my sets of beater chisels has been on "indefinite loan" for a while now, and the previous firmer chisel thread piqued my curiosity, so I picked up a set of the Narex firmers to replace them. Some observations:


The sides aren't parallel. They're bevelled at about 4 deg/side, which means that the chisel is about 1 - cos(4) = 0.24% narrower when registered via a side than when registered via the back. For me this is insignificant (I have dedicated chisels with much less side taper for mortising) but for some it may be a deal breaker. Don't buy these if you're expecting a parallel-sided sash mortise pattern chisel.
They're slightly tapered from edge to neck, which makes them a nice complement to my existing collection of constant-width chisels. For example the "26 mm" chisel is 26.0 mm wide at the edge and 25.0 mm wide just before the neck.
Like all Narex chisels they appear not to have been post-machined after hardening/tempering, so their backs aren't as flat as some others. The worst example in my set was the 20 mm chisel, which was bellied and had a small amount of twist. Even that one only took 15 min or so to flatten the first ~2.5", which included knocking down the worst of the bellying, using 60 um diamond paste on a mild steel plate.
Balance, ergonomics, edge refinement, edge life, etc seem about the same as the Narex bench chisels. I like the hoopless boxwood handle design in these more than the hooped beech handle in my Narex bench chisels (though note that you can also get bevel-edge bench chisels with the boxwood handle).

My bottom line is that I think they're great for the price provided you know how to quickly and efficiently flatten them, but perhaps not what some of the more "traditionalist" people here would ideally want.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks for the review Patrick!

Fred

[ken hatch]

Patrick,

They are good chisels for the money. But clunky, I've used mine for several weeks now and they are good workman like chisels but when compared to something like the Marples firmers with Boxwood handles they are lacking. I just received a beautiful 1/4" Marples, if I can find time I will photograph the two, Narex and Marples, side by side to show the difference.

Of course I can, with a couple of clicks, have a full set of the Narex setting on my doorstep the next day. The Marples I've been chasing after for a long time and still missing many.

ken

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick,

They are good chisels for the money. But clunky, I've used mine for several weeks now and they are good workman like chisels but when compared to something like the Marples firmers with Boxwood handles they are lacking. I just received a beautiful 1/4" Marples, if I can find time I will photograph the two, Narex and Marples, side by side to show the difference.

Of course I can, with a couple of clicks, have a full set of the Narex setting on my doorstep the next day. The Marples I've been chasing after for a long time and still missing many.

ken

Yeah, they're also clunkers next to my Veritas bench chisels or the 750s that I've reground into skews, but I purposely avoided that comparison.

As you say, for the price and availability they're hard to beat. They'll see plenty of use either by me and others when The Good Stuff (tm) isn't appropriate.

[Patrick Chase]

Two ergonomically very different approaches to a 3/4" (or 20 mm) chisel:

367011

Narex' austempering process isn't compatible with engraving, which is why they print the brand/model/size information on the top of the blade. I wasn't all that precise about it when I stripped the shipping varnish from these ones, and much of the printing went with it.

BTW, the Bahco chisels (which Amazon carries) are remarkably similar to Narex. Same blade shape (but very different handles), same lack of post-HT machining and resulting geometry issues, same printed brand information, etc. Let's hear three cheers for globalized supply chains! :-)

[Warren Mickley]

It appears that the Narex chisel is considerably thinner at the bevel than the Veritas, which would be a good thing. I tried to tell Rob Lee that the Veritas chisels were too thick back when they were still in the design phase; Rob suggested that I was confused. Both chisels seem to have fat handles, but the Narex seems to have a longer handle, also a good thing. I think it is a lot easier to remove and replace a Narex handle.

A 3/4 inch firmer chisel in the Seaton chest is .058 inches thick at the bevel, which is ideal.

[Pat Barry]

Two ergonomically very different approaches to a 3/4" (or 20 mm) chisel:

367011

Narex' austempering process isn't compatible with engraving, which is why they print the brand/model/size information on the top of the blade. I wasn't all that precise about it when I stripped the shipping varnish from these ones, and much of the printing went with it.

BTW, the Bahco chisels (which Amazon carries) are remarkably similar to Narex. Same blade shape (but very different handles), same lack of post-HT machining and resulting geometry issues, same printed brand information, etc. Let's hear three cheers for globalized supply chains! :-)
Globalized supply chains? So you are saying Bahco and Narex are both from the same manufacturer? Which is actually the manufacturer?

[Kees Heiden]

Aren't these chisels supposed to be slightly beveled on the sides? So they don't jam in a mortise?

Unless they are registered firmer chisels of course.


I have some old English firmer chisels and they are a mixed bunch, some have a slight bevel on the side, some are square, some have a reversed bevel, possibly only on one side! Manufacturing wasn't always consistent.

[Patrick Chase]

Globalized supply chains? So you are saying Bahco and Narex are both from the same manufacturer? Which is actually the manufacturer?

I suspect they're both made by Narex, but obviously can't prove that. Bahco certainly have been known to engage in arrangements like that in the past (example: Their needle files are obviously made by Glardon-Vallorbe, their diamond compounds are Hyperion, etc)

[Bob Leistner]

I'm not sure about the Narex/Bahco connection. Seems somewhere I recall Bahco bought out a chisel maker named Berg when they wanted to start producing chisels.

[Patrick Chase]

It appears that the Narex chisel is considerably thinner at the bevel than the Veritas, which would be a good thing.

Yes, the Narex is somewhat thinner at the bevel. I think you have a good technical point, because the requirement for thickness is mostly driven by bending, and the bending moment is near-zero that close to the edge (bending moment is force times the length of the lever arm, and the latter is quite small this close to the edge). An optimal profile would probably be more aggressively tapered in thickness than the Veritas chisel.



I tried to tell Rob Lee that the Veritas chisels were too thick back when they were still in the design phase; Rob suggested that I was confused.

This is not helpful or productive in my opinion. If anything it serves to undermine the credibility of the point you made above, by drawing attention to the personal aspects instead of the (actually very solid) technical argument in favor of your position.



Both chisels seem to have fat handles, but the Narex seems to have a longer handle, also a good thing.

The Veritas' handle is 1/4" smaller in diameter at the widest part. The Narex also feels much bulkier in the hand. As to whether the long handle is a good thing, that's very subjective with individual preferences all over the map. I happen to like shorter handles, as seen on the Veritas or with stock 750 handles.


I think it is a lot easier to remove and replace a Narex handle.

The Narex is a conventional tanged chisel, while the Veritas is a fairly unique socket-over-tang construction that would require both turning a taper and cutting/burning a concentric mortise in any replacement handle. At the very least the Veritas probably has more of a learning curve for handle relacement, as I'm not aware of any other designs like it.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm not sure about the Narex/Bahco connection. Seems somewhere I recall Bahco bought out a chisel maker named Berg when they wanted to start producing chisels.

Interesting. There's a description of Berg's process here (http://galootopia.com/old_tools/chisels/swedish-chisels/berg-chisels/how-berg-chisels-were-made-new/), and from reading between the lines it appears that they used pre-HT machining and austempering much like Narex (albeit with a lead bath instead of molten salt - yowza). That would also be consistent with what I've seen from the current Bahco chisels.

Thank you!

[Patrick Chase]

Aren't these chisels supposed to be slightly beveled on the sides? So they don't jam in a mortise?

Unless they are registered firmer chisels of course.

I have some old English firmer chisels and they are a mixed bunch, some have a slight bevel on the side, some are square, some have a reversed bevel, possibly only on one side! Manufacturing wasn't always consistent.

There have been debates in this forum as to what "registered" means or should mean, so I consciously avoided that word.

But yes, I would describe these as unregistered firmers. Some might prefer that, while others might not (IIRC Warren prefers parallel sides in at least his mortise chisels). I thought I'd point it out in any case to help avoid surprises.

[Bob Leistner]

Bahco bought EA Berg in 1959.......