Combination Square

[Mike OMelia]

I have used my grandfather's combination square forever. The guide lock for the blade finally broke. Seems that all that is out there is cheap aluminum. I want one that it is iron and steel. (iron body). Got any recommendations?

[Kelly Cleveland]

The Starrett squares are cast iron.

[Doug Garson]

Try Lee Valley
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=57065&cat=1,43513,51657&ap=1
http://www.leevalley.com/en/images/item/Woodworking/MarkMeasure/30n3100s4.jpg

[John Gornall]

The good Starrett combination squares are forged not cast:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=71651&cat=1,42936

[Frederick Skelly]

I have a Starrett combo square and love it. Edit: Like JKJ said below, mine was about $120 and another $40 for the center finding head.

If you don't want to spend that much money, look at the harry epstein tool company site. They offer PEC, which seems to have a good overall reputation. (I have PEC double squares and lm very pleased. Others have said similar things.) Epstein sells "blemished" PECs (https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/catalogsearch/result/?q=Pec+combination+square)and that can save you money.

Good luck!
Fred

[John K Jordan]

I have a half dozen combination squares. I have one Starrett combination square. It is FAR better than any of the others in construction, smoothness of operation, and readability of the numbers. The one I got was about $100.

JKJ

[Bill Space]

Hi,

I was about to order a couple things from Epstein but gave up when I saw the shipping was $14+

I thought $7 was a more reasonable amount. My loss their loss... :mad:

[Mike Manning]

You didn't say what brand combo square you have. If it's one of the big old names like Starrett, Brown & Sharp, Lufkin, etc I'd check ebay and see if I couldn't just buy that part from someone. You see people selling combo square parts from time to time.

[glenn bradley]

Also have a Starrett and like it. I reach for my PEC more often though. Actually has a better feel and smoother operation. I have not bothered to fettle the Starrett however and it would probably smooth out nicely with just a touch of effort.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi,

I was about to order a couple things from Epstein but gave up when I saw the shipping was $14+

I thought $7 was a more reasonable amount. My loss their loss... :mad:

Agree. Looks like their rates have gone up since I ordered a few months back. I just input the address of a friend in a Pittsburgh suburb and got $9.75 for 2 day priority mail. Still a tad high for my taste, but not very far out of normal.

[Mel Fulks]

Years ago I had a Starrett combination square with a broken hook that would not hold the grooved ruler. I called them and they were helpful,sent me a new part. I think I got the part quickly ,and the small bill later.

[Chris Fournier]

Buy once cry once. I have two Starretts and they have been gold for over twenty years. I had a cheap one like yours that gave up the ghost and I welded up the lock and re-machined it because it had sentimental value to me. Wax the blade and lock, it helps a bunch!

[Mike Henderson]

Look also at the Mitutoyo combination squares. They are the equal or better than Starrett. Very smooth operation.

You can sometimes find one on eBay at a reasonable price.

Mike

[John Gornall]

To clarify - Starrett offers 2 versions of combination squares. The LV page Doug posted is the standard cast iron squares. The LV page I posted is a different page showing the premium forged steel squared. The pages look the same but check the price lines.

[Bruce Wrenn]

This thread brought back a memory. Couple summers back at local flea market was looking at a Brown and Sharp combination square. Vendor wanted $3.00 for it, which I paid. Then he told me I was lucky, because if it was a Stanley, he wouldn't taken less than $10.00:confused:.

[Bill Berklich]

This thread brought back a memory. Couple summers back at local flea market was looking at a Brown and Sharp combination square. Vendor wanted $3.00 for it, which I paid. Then he told me I was lucky, because if it was a Stanley, he wouldn't taken less than $10.00:confused:.


ROFLMAO! You were luck though

[Doug Garson]

To clarify - Starrett offers 2 versions of combination squares. The LV page Doug posted is the standard cast iron squares. The LV page I posted is a different page showing the premium forged steel squared. The pages look the same but check the price lines.
Note also that the page I linked is the Canadian site so Canadian dollars, John's link is to the US site and US dollars so the premium for the forged vs cast is about 25%.

[Mike Henderson]

Another good brand is PEC. American made. Check out here (https://www.amazon.com/PEC-Piece-Combination-Square-Set/dp/B0002FTRIY/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1503806661&sr=8-8&keywords=mitutoyo+combination+square).

If you want a full set, there's a seller on EBay that sells PEC blems. Look at item 141455416116

I've bought PEC blems and they have been excellent.

Mike

[There are multiple sellers of PEC blems on eBay so search on "PEC combination square" and several will come up. You want a 4R rule.]

[And while you're at it, search on "mitutoyo combination square".]

[Rich Engelhardt]

My wife and I took a couple days off & drove down to Columbus Oho to see a free magic show.
There wasn't any parking for the free magic show, so, we fell back to - plan "B".
We hit the Hollywood Casino instead.
I dropped about $200. A draft beer was $7, needless to say, I drank only one of those puppies.

All told, we spent about $700 for a two day trip - that was, while a fun diversion, nothing real memorable(other than spending some alone time w/my Amazon Temptress ;))

I paid about $75 a few years ago for a Starrett square that returns a ton of good feelings every time I heft it.

Moral of the story - -some things are meant to last!

[Ric Flanders]

My Mitutoyo is an has been a great square. I also own a Mitutoyo caliper and micrometer set. All great!

[Mike OMelia]

You didn't say what brand combo square you have. If it's one of the big old names like Starrett, Brown & Sharp, Lufkin, etc I'd check ebay and see if I couldn't just buy that part from someone. You see people selling combo square parts from time to time.

Please don't laugh. It was a Stanley. But it was over 50 years old. Back then, the cheap stuff was as good as some of today's good stuff. I picked up some inexpensive iron ones from Lowes to get by, but I'll order one of those Starretts.

Thanks, Mike

[Mike Manning]

Please don't laugh. It was a Stanley. But it was over 50 years old. Back then, the cheap stuff was as good as some of today's good stuff. I picked up some inexpensive iron ones from Lowes to get by, but I'll order one of those Starretts.

Thanks, Mike

Nothing at all to laugh at. The old Stanley tools were quality tools!

[Ben Rivel]

My wife and I took a couple days off & drove down to Columbus Oho to see a free magic show.
There wasn't any parking for the free magic show, so, we fell back to - plan "B".
We hit the Hollywood Casino instead.
I dropped about $200. A draft beer was $7, needless to say, I drank only one of those puppies.

All told, we spent about $700 for a two day trip - that was, while a fun diversion, nothing real memorable(other than spending some alone time w/my Amazon Temptress ;))

I paid about $75 a few years ago for a Starrett square that returns a ton of good feelings every time I heft it.

Moral of the story - -some things are meant to last!
Exactly! I rarely spend money on such "diversions" as I usually feel like it was money wasted or better spent on ANYTHING tangible. Since I dont, I usually have no problem justifying paying for top of the line tools. They make me happy every time I use them.

[Cary Falk]

I ordered some PEC blemished from Ebay and am happy with them

[Lee Schierer]

You might be able to steal a guide lock from one of the cheap combination squares. Measure your broken piece and then take your calipers to the store and see how the same parts from a new square compare.

Or take the broken part to a local machine shop and have them make a new one for you.

[Nick Shattuck]

By the way, I'm also looking for a combo square to replace my bent, but straightened, bent again, but straightened out again square. I noticed amazon has a Starrett 33H (not C33H) 12" for like $60, which is way cheaper than other places sell this model for. The C33H is about twice the price. To those in the know, what is the difference between the satin chrome and the satin ruler?

[John K Jordan]

By the way, I'm also looking for a combo square to replace my bent, but straightened, bent again, but straightened out again square. I noticed amazon has a Starrett 33H (not C33H) 12" for like $60, which is way cheaper than other places sell this model for. The C33H is about twice the price. To those in the know, what is the difference between the satin chrome and the satin ruler?

My Starrett rules are satin chrome and I don't have any of the other. I love the way the scale looks.

Wondering about the difference I checked some of the reviews and questions. I found this:

Question: What is the advantage of the satin Crome over the standard finish.?
Answer: I think it is easer to read.

I know - buy one of each and let everyone know what you think! :)

JKJ

[Bill Berklich]

Go Starrett or Brown & Sharp - don't bother with anything less. They last a lifetime (and your Grand kids too) which is why they are still expensive on eBay after 40 years use in a machine shop.

[Nathan Johnson]

By the way, I'm also looking for a combo square to replace my bent, but straightened, bent again, but straightened out again square. I noticed amazon has a Starrett 33H (not C33H) 12" for like $60, which is way cheaper than other places sell this model for. The C33H is about twice the price. To those in the know, what is the difference between the satin chrome and the satin ruler?

Thanks for the heads up on this. Just ordered the 33H.
Should be an upgrade over my Empire. :)

[Kevin Smira]

Are the PEC blems (or even PEC non blems) offered in metric? Slowly finding myself switching over to metric. mm lines are easier to see for me than 1/16th lines. Also, to me, math is easier.

[Eric Commarato]

I have a bunch of Starrett Squares, a couple Scherr Tumico squares, Lufkin, Brown and Sharpe and Union Tool. Starrett has the best attention to detail, but all are very good. I like my Union the best.

[glenn bradley]

Are the PEC blems (or even PEC non blems) offered in metric? Slowly finding myself switching over to metric. mm lines are easier to see for me than 1/16th lines. Also, to me, math is easier.

An argument for the ages :D.

From their web page:

Graduations Syles


4R: 8ths & 16ths, 32nds & 64ths
16R: 32nds & 64ths, 50ths & 100ths
Metric: mm & 0.5mm both sides
English/Metric: 0.5mm & 32nds, mm & 64ths

[Mike Henderson]

Are the PEC blems (or even PEC non blems) offered in metric? Slowly finding myself switching over to metric. mm lines are easier to see for me than 1/16th lines. Also, to me, math is easier.

I have seen PEC belm on eBay in metric. Search for "PEC combination square" and if there are any, they will come up.

Mike

[Johanna Johanson]

This thread brought back a memory. Couple summers back at local flea market was looking at a Brown and Sharp combination square. Vendor wanted $3.00 for it, which I paid. Then he told me I was lucky, because if it was a Stanley, he wouldn't taken less than $10.00:confused:.Geez, how come I never find good stuff like that?

[Patrick Curry]

I can't recommend Epstein's site enough. I bought a 24" solid machinst square (about 10lbs), a 6" machinist sq, 12" adj sq, 6" combo, straight edge...all for $135 inc $16 shipping. The PEC stuff they sell is very nice.

[Darcy Warner]

I have 5 Starrett's, two 24" ones, all with centering heads and protractor, but my favorites are my old Lufkin ones made in Saginaw MI. Just have a soft spot for old Lufkin stuff.

[Curt Harms]

Thanks for the heads up on this. Just ordered the 33H.
Should be an upgrade over my Empire. :)

Curious. Have you checked your Empire for square? I'm sure they won't stay accurate as long as Starrett or Brown & Sharp but how far off is it? Most Empire stuff is (or was) made in Mukwonago, WI.

[Nathan Johnson]

Actually, it isn't bad at all. It served me well on my bench build, and it will remain in the stable as a second/backup option. But at almost 1/2 off, I had to order the Starrett.

[Wayne Jolly]

Make your grandfather proud by just making a new locking bolt. I had a Stanley combo square locking bolt (not a 50 year old square like yours) break on me and I just got a 1/4" SS bolt, a hacksaw, and a file and made a new one. Better than new.

Wayne

[John Gulick]

I recently came across a vintage (probably from the '60's) Craftsman combo square at a garage sale for $1.50. Solid, accurate and the right price. I had been using a modern Empire, I know and cannot use one of the three Starrett combo's cause they are too valuable. Guess I'm an old cheapskate at heart

[John Gornall]

It's not hard to fix an out of square combination square

[Bob Leistner]

The 60's Craftsman is likely a Tumico product. If in good shape, you did very well.

[Eric Broder]

This might be heresy, but Stumpy Nubs recently did a review of the iGauging set. For reference, he compared it to Starrett and, while it wasn't quite as good, it seemed pretty close. Thoughts?

[Mike Cutler]

This might be heresy, but Stumpy Nubs recently did a review of the iGauging set. For reference, he compared it to Starrett and, while it wasn't quite as good, it seemed pretty close. Thoughts?

They look like a nice set of tools. Definitely a little cheaper, price wise, than Starrett's. One thing you get with Starrett is NIST traceability, not sure with iGauging.What this means is that a Starrett can be used as a reference standard, as long as it's NIST traceability is maintained. This is a significant piece of the price a person pays for Starrett tools.
Starrett makes a quality tool, and have for over a hundred years. A person wouldn't go wrong buying Starrett, but there are other options for folks that don't quite need machinist's accuracies. ;)
As long as any square can be adjusted square, and are taken care of, there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't be just fine.

[John Gulick]

It's not hard to fix an out of square combination square

Please describe.

thanks

[John Gornall]

Look at where the rule contacts the head on a Starrett to see the little nubs which are filed to adjust.

[John Gornall]

Youtube has a "how it's made" video on the making of starrett combination squares

[Edwin Santos]

Please describe.

thanks

I followed the adjusting technique demonstrated by Robert Lang in this video and it did the job on my Starrett.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/squaring-a-combination-square

[John Gulick]

How close do we need to dial in our combo squares? When working metal I can see a tighter tolerance but with wood? and how is it measured (in degrees)?

[lowell holmes]

To bring this string back up if you find it interesting.
I am straightening my shop after the Harvey Flood and today, I was cleaning my Starrett tri-squares. One is an Althol Machine Company No. 500 square
and the other a Starrett and I have a center finder for round shapes.

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=1179

Yes, this is a bit of a boast, but some of you might be interested in completing your tri-square collection,

[Larry Edgerton]

Look also at the Mitutoyo combination squares. They are the equal or better than Starrett. Very smooth operation.

You can sometimes find one on eBay at a reasonable price.

Mike

I would say better Mike. I have one of each, and the Mitutoyo is just much smoother and nicer to use than the Starrett.

[Curt Harms]

I would say better Mike. I have one of each, and the Mitutoyo is just much smoother and nicer to use than the Starrett.

This thread got me curious so I went to Ebay. 4 piece Mitutoyo for $69.99 + $13.15 shipping. No bids with 3 days to go. Listed as used but 2 of the 4 parts are in wrappers (ebay 312209673602). I looked a little closer and "made in Mexico". If the quality is there, it doesn't matter. There are other 4 piece Mitutoyo sets available buy it now.

[John K Jordan]

This thread got me curious so I went to Ebay. 4 piece Mitutoyo for $69.99 + $13.15 shipping. No bids with 3 days to go. Listed as used but 2 of the 4 parts are in wrappers (ebay 312209673602). I looked a little closer and "made in Mexico". If the quality is there, it doesn't matter. There are other 4 piece Mitutoyo sets available buy it now.

Comparing a good square like Mitutoyo or Starrett to a cheap one is like the comparing a rusty clunker to a Ferrari Boxster. They will both get you to Walmart but oh, the difference.

[johnny means]

Comparing a good square like Mitutoyo or Starrett to a cheap one is like the comparing a rusty clunker to a Ferrari Boxster. They will both get you to Walmart but oh, the difference.

Gotta say, I've never seen a Ferrari at a Walmart. But seriously, what is the difference? I'd like to see a serious discussion about the actual performance differences between the different price points in tools.

[Greg R Bradley]

Gotta say, I've never seen a Ferrari at a Walmart. But seriously, what is the difference? I'd like to see a serious discussion about the actual performance differences between the different price points in tools.I've certainly seen a Ferrari at Walmart, probably even parked a Ferrari at Walmart. BUT the one thing we can be sure that nobody has ever seen is a FERRARI BOXSTER anywhere, parked or otherwise.

[John K Jordan]

we can be sure that nobody has ever seen is a FERRARI BOXSTER anywhere, parked or otherwise.

You're absolutely right! Sorry, I meant Porsche. My good friend the potter has one and it has been to Walmart. It is more at home on the winding mountain roads. The thing feels like the tires are magically gripping the pavement in the turns - amazing. He offered to sell it to me but I'd get more use out of a trackhoe for the farm. I think his Boxster has something like 350 hp. Yikes.

Here he is taking our favorite woodturning and pottery student for a spin.

392215

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

I'd like to see a serious discussion about the actual performance differences between the different price points in tools.

I have a number of squares and one is a good Starrett. All of them are as square as I can check with my machinist squares. For me the differences between the Starrett and a cheaper square are: one, when sliding the casting along the rule the feel is so much smoother. Even the locking knob feels better. But better, I find the satin finish Starrett uses much easier to read than the finishes on my other squares. Perhaps the etchings of the lines and numbers are help too. I think these things make it a bit easier to set and read a measurement.

After using the Starrett for a while in the wood and machining areas of my shop, using a cheaper square in my little welding shop is less satisfying. However, I don't need the precision there that I want in my little machine shop. Years I got into the habit of buying Starrett (and some other good brands) when I can afford it - I have their digital height gauge I use on a granite surface plate, scribes, digital calipers, standard calipers, bandsaw tension gauge, and others. Of course, I could get by with cheaper squares (and other tools) all over if I had to.

JKJ

[Curt Harms]

Comparing a good square like Mitutoyo or Starrett to a cheap one is like the comparing a rusty clunker to a Ferrari Boxster. They will both get you to Walmart but oh, the difference.

No doubt. To carry on with the vehicle comparison, if getting one's butt reliably and safely from point A to point B were the only criteria, hardly anyone would buy more than a midrange Ford/GM/Toyota.

[John K Jordan]

Go Starrett or Brown & Sharp - don't bother with anything less. They last a lifetime (and your Grand kids too) which is why they are still expensive on eBay after 40 years use in a machine shop.

Maybe put an Amazon watch point on camelcamelcamel for Brown&Sharpe. I've seen their prices occasionally wander. I once bought an incredible B&S dial test indicator for about $45 that normally sells for over $230. The unbelievable price was gone about an hour later.

JKJ

[Greg R Bradley]

Maybe put an Amazon watch point on camelcamelcamel for Brown&Sharpe. I've seen their prices occasionally wander. I once bought an incredible B&S dial test indicator for about $45 that normally sells for over $230. The unbelievable price was gone about an hour later.

JKJ
I'm curious about camelcamelcamel as I've found it to be wildly inaccurate. Perhaps it only tracks popular products well. Here is CCC tracking of an item that I just bought. It shows it is $282 currently and always has been. If you click the link it takes you to Amazon that shows the actual $455 that it has been for a looooooong time except for a brief dip where I bought one. The $399 for a like new used one in a damaged wooden case is also there.
392221

Here is the actual link on ccc: https://camelcamelcamel.com/search?sq=Mitutoyo+534-117


I wouldn't have paid either of those prices as I have 18" Sherr-Tumico & 24" Starrett versions that work but are just difficult to use for the smaller parts. I did bite when I noticed it for $155. Price returned to $455 the instant I bought.
392222
I'll probably sell the pristine 18" for more than that and the buyer will be thrilled.

[Rick McQuay]

But seriously, what is the difference? I'd like to see a serious discussion about the actual performance differences between the different price points in tools.

Starrett, the fit and finish is immaculate. The edges are both sharp yet eased enough they don't cut your hand. The numbers are etched, easy to read. The rule is either shiny or satin (your preference), made of tool steel and hardened, flat, straight, correct. The heads are cast or forged (your choice). Cast are heavier, forged are smoother, I prefer the latter but it doesn't matter. Mine are square every time, dead nutz in summer and winter. They 'feel' good in the hand, good balance, and I feel happy using them.

Brown & Sharpe combo square: same as above but the edges are not eased and may cut your hand if not careful. I have a BS double square that doesn't lock up 100%. If Starrett is a "10", B&S is a "9.7".

Lufkin combo square: I have one vintage Lufkin square that is high quality, dead nutz, but is a bit worn. I still use it constantly.

Stanley, Craftsman combo squares: Passable, not always square, have to check it and depending on the season, temperature, whatever; it may or may not be dead square. Not made of tool steel, not hardened. Numbers are stamped and more difficult to read. Even if you try filling in the numbers with ink or paint, the stamps are uneven so the numbers are not always clear. If you move the head, it may require fiddling to make it square.

Stanley Try Squares: Some seasons they are square, some not.

Empire: I have no experience with these. In the store they feel light duty like the Stanley or Craftsman.

[Curt Harms]

......................................

Empire: I have no experience with these. In the store they feel light duty like the Stanley or Craftsman.

I have a couple of Empire squares and they are light duty. One thing I do like about them compared to other Borg offerings is the matte blades. I find them easier to read than the typical shiny.They're as square as I can measure but I'm certain they wouldn't last years in daily trade usage. OTOH if they get damaged on a job site they'd be a lot less painful to replace than the premium brands.

[John Gulick]

I've certainly seen a Ferrari at Walmart, probably even parked a Ferrari at Walmart. BUT the one thing we can be sure that nobody has ever seen is a FERRARI BOXSTER anywhere, parked or otherwise.

You never know what some tuners can do with a little imagination, I have seen some crazy stuff, but true no Ferrari Boxster yet

[Vijay Kumar]

My Starrett rules are satin chrome and I don't have any of the other. I love the way the scale looks.

Wondering about the difference I checked some of the reviews and questions. I found this:

Question: What is the advantage of the satin Crome over the standard finish.?
Answer: I think it is easer to read.

I know - buy one of each and let everyone know what you think! :)

JKJ

This is the main reason to buy Starrett. The satin chrome finish. Nothing else comes close. Brown and Sharpe, Mitutoyo, and PEC are all excellent but dont have these very easy to read scales.