Flat, square, IMPOSSIBLE!?

[Michael J Evans]

I cannot plane wood flat / square across and along its length. I've tried and tried and tried. I've watched multiple videos multiple times and can't understand why I can't do it.

My usual process starts by going across the grain then diagonal then along the grain. Then Checking for twist / fixing that. I can usually accomplish flat across, the problem then comes when I try to flatten along the grain. After I get it reasonably flat along the grain then it's no longer flat across or I've put twist back into it. Maybe I'm being to picky about flatness both ways, I hold my straight edge or square up to my shop lights to check and there's always some gap. When the straight edge isn't held up to the light its usually all good.

Is there such a thing as flat / good enough?
I literally just planed off a 1/2" of a supposed to be 1.5" top trying to get it right and am going crazy every time I try to dimension wood.

[steven c newman]

First...RELAX, wood moves..

Next, use the longest plane you have, and get the high points.

Scribe a line all around the edges, to show WHERE you want to wind up at. Plane til you barely nick the lines.

[Warren Mickley]

You have to make a mental image of the surface, noting the highs and lows. Then the low spots should not be planed at all unless maybe once at the end for uniformity. Just plane the high spots. For instance if there is twist and the near right corner and far left corner are low, you can plane the opposite diagonal, or right down the middle, but don't plane lthe diagonal that contains the low corners at all. Try marking low spots with chalk and make sure they are not touched.

[Robert Engel]

What kind of planes are you using? Once you get the board laying flat put that face down. Once you get the twist out use a #6 or 7 plane to go across the board. If you're using a #4 plane this is where your problem is.

I've learned you have to use winding sticks several places along the length not just on each end like you see a lot of guys do. This will tell you where to mark the high spots. Once you get close take 2 or 3 shavings at a time.

I also use a long straight edge to check lengthwise. You can buy an expensive straight edge but I just use a level on longer boards.

Flat enough is very subjective. Its however flat it needs to be. Sorry.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Is there such a thing as flat / good enough?


Yes.

Also, Warren is giving you good advice.

The videos where they mindlessly plane the whole thing and it somehow miraculously gets flat and square make me laugh. I have always suspected somewhere in the middle they run it over a jointer or something.

Paul Sellers has a free video (or maybe two) where he flattens and squares a board of reasonable size. It is the most realistic one I have seen, and might help.

Finally, don't get discouraged.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Ah, I remember these days. It took me a longer time than I'd like to admit to figure out how to plane a board flat. I once took a 3/4" thick piece of oak down to less than 1/2" just trying to get the damn thing flat...

At first I kept getting hollows, which is weird. Turns out that holding thinner pieces in a vise rather than on a dead-flat surface where they're fully supported was the culprit. As for taking out twist, my big error was just using the winding sticks to check twist at either end, and traversing all the way across. If the twist is consistent then that's fine but sometimes it isn't. I figured my plane would skip over the low spots and take off the high spots thus making the board more flat on its own. That only works if you take thin enough shavings, use a long enough plane, and make sure the plane's sole is actually flat.

In the end, the rule seems to be (so far) to just check more parts of the board with your straight edge, and be more meticulous in marking high or low spots, be more selective with where you plane (i.e. only plane the high spots), and taking thinner or less shavings as you get closer.

Videos and books shorten the learning curve better than anything else I found, with the exception of meeting someone who actually knows what they're doing and working with them.

[Simon MacGowen]

I cannot plane wood flat / square across and along its length. I've tried and tried and tried. I've watched multiple videos multiple times and can't understand why I can't do it.

I can understand your frustrations and despite all the comments you may have read by now, I very much doubt they will make a difference to you. It is simple in principle like removing the high spots, etc., but in practice it is not that simple as many factors can affect the results.

Assuming you had your plane set properly (were you sure?), did you know if you tend to tilt your plane inward or outward? Did you tend to put much pressure on the handle when you started?

Have you seen Rob Cosman do it? Even he has to spend a good amount of time on flattening a board that is not large, say, 1' x 2' or so. (But I don't like the way he checks the flatness on the bench, I prefer the winding sticks.)

I don't have the answer to your question, but a suggestion. While you can keep trying (and keep getting frustrated), following all the advice others have given you here, I strongly suggest that you get an in-person tutorial from a plane user who can plane true and square. Let him or her watch how you do it and then show his or her techniques. You need immediate feedback on what is right and what is wrong to make and see immediate improvements. No second guessing.

You can watch hundreds of videos or read articles (at least over a dozen have been published) but can still not plane a board flat consistently. On two subjects, I always recommend people take a class or get help in person: Flattening boards, and cutting dovetails.

One last thing. Wood moves and a board flattened may no longer be so if you leave it in your shop after a couple of days that has acute humidity swings.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Take Warren's advice, and I go over it a bit in some of my YouTube videos.

[James Pallas]

I was once told, "You learned how to do this a long time ago. When you learned to take s stick and flatten the sand in your sandbox."
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

Ah, I remember these days. It took me a longer time than I'd like to admit to figure out how to plane a board flat. I once took a 3/4" thick piece of oak down to less than 1/2" just trying to get the damn thing flat...

Been there, done that.



At first I kept getting hollows, which is weird. Turns out that holding thinner pieces in a vise rather than on a dead-flat surface where they're fully supported was the culprit.

Also been there, also did that.

Pro tip: If your bench isn't flat, then the board may end up the inverse of its profile (did that once, too).



As for taking out twist, my big error was just using the winding sticks to check twist at either end, and traversing all the way across. If the twist is consistent then that's fine but sometimes it isn't. I figured my plane would skip over the low spots and take off the high spots thus making the board more flat on its own. That only works if you take thin enough shavings, use a long enough plane, and make sure the plane's sole is actually flat.

In the end, the rule seems to be (so far) to just check more parts of the board with your straight edge, and be more meticulous in marking high or low spots, be more selective with where you plane (i.e. only plane the high spots), and taking thinner or less shavings as you get closer

Yep. Warren put it well. You can rely on the plane to "blindly" flatten things along a single axis (for example for edge jointing), but to get both you have to identify and specifically work the high spots.

[Stanley Covington]

Warren has the right of it.

The hard truth is that you are not paying attention. Everyone has the exact same problem at first. Some realize it sooner than others.

Your primary tools are brain, hand and eye. And even ear when your skills become more advanced. Use all of them, not just hand.

Your plane is your secondary tool. The plane's blade is what cuts, not its body, so pay attention to where the blade is when cutting.

Pay careful attention to the board as-is, and compare it to what the finished board needs to be. Sounds so easy, but most people screw this up to one degree or another. It takes a conscious effort. A long ruler and winding sticks will help you see and think and plan. The plan may need to change frequently. Do it.

There are high spots, there are low spots. A plane can't raise low spots, but only lower high spots. You need to pay attention and see the high and low spots. Cross thatch the entire surface of the board with chalk, lumber crayon, or pencil. Circle the high spots. This will help your eye and brain tools pay attention.

Take small short strokes with your plane. Just a couple of inches. ONLY on the high spots. After a couple of strokes (not 6 just 2), check with ruler and winding sticks. Make your eyes see the progress. Notice how the low areas stay cross-thatched, and the high areas are being shaved. Adjust the plan. Re-mark. Repeat.

Sometimes you will make it worse. When that happens, STOP. Use ruler and winding sticks to help your eye tools see the problem, then use your brain tool and figure out why. You must figure out the process that made things worse. Once you figure it out, then you are learning. Don't make the same mistake again.

Stop taking long strokes. They feel like they are accomplishing more, but you stop paying attention and cut wood that doesn't need cutting. When you learn how to pay attention with eye and brain, then your hand will quickly develop the ability to feel how and where the blade is cutting. After this, long strokes can be useful. But not yet.

The pressure of the plane will make the board's hollow areas deflect down a tiny amount away from the blade. Not good. Same thing happens if the supporting surface is not flat. Use a flat surface.

Use shavings, newspaper, cardboard, or even strips of wood, depending on the degree, to shim and keep hollowed areas/corners from deflecting down or rocking.

[john zulu]

I cannot plane wood flat / square across and along its length. I've tried and tried and tried. I've watched multiple videos multiple times and can't understand why I can't do it.

My usual process starts by going across the grain then diagonal then along the grain. Then Checking for twist / fixing that. I can usually accomplish flat across, the problem then comes when I try to flatten along the grain. After I get it reasonably flat along the grain then it's no longer flat across or I've put twist back into it. Maybe I'm being to picky about flatness both ways, I hold my straight edge or square up to my shop lights to check and there's always some gap. When the straight edge isn't held up to the light its usually all good.

Is there such a thing as flat / good enough?
I literally just planed off a 1/2" of a supposed to be 1.5" top trying to get it right and am going crazy every time I try to dimension wood.

Are you applying machining techniques to wood working?

[Michael J Evans]

You have to make a mental image of the surface, noting the highs and lows. Then the low spots should not be planed at all unless maybe once at the end for uniformity. Just plane the high spots. For instance if there is twist and the near right corner and far left corner are low, you can plane the opposite diagonal, or right down the middle, but don't plane lthe diagonal that contains the low corners at all. Try marking low spots with chalk and make sure they are not touched.

Thanks Warren

[Michael J Evans]

Yes.

Also, Warren is giving you good advice.

The videos where they mindlessly plane the whole thing and it somehow miraculously gets flat and square make me laugh. I have always suspected somewhere in the middle they run it over a jointer or something.

Paul Sellers has a free video (or maybe two) where he flattens and squares a board of reasonable size. It is the most realistic one I have seen, and might help.

Finally, don't get discouraged.

Pauls video is a good one and one I've watched literally 15 times or more. I really hate giving up on something, so after a frustrating session I usually watch a video to think about what I'm doing wrong.

[Michael J Evans]

Brian,
I didn't know you had videos, will looks those up.

[Michael J Evans]

Warren has the right of it.

The hard truth is that you are not paying attention. Everyone has the exact same problem at first. Some realize it sooner than others.

Your primary tools are brain, hand and eye. And even ear when your skills become more advanced. Use all of them, not just hand.

Your plane is your secondary tool. The plane's blade is what cuts, not its body, so pay attention to where the blade is when cutting.

Pay careful attention to the board as-is, and compare it to what the finished board needs to be. Sounds so easy, but most people screw this up to one degree or another. It takes a conscious effort. A long ruler and winding sticks will help you see and think and plan. The plan may need to change frequently. Do it.

There are high spots, there are low spots. A plane can't raise low spots, but only lower high spots. You need to pay attention and see the high and low spots. Cross thatch the entire surface of the board with chalk, lumber crayon, or pencil. Circle the high spots. This will help your eye and brain tools pay attention.

Take small short strokes with your plane. Just a couple of inches. ONLY on the high spots. After a couple of strokes (not 6 just 2), check with ruler and winding sticks. Make your eyes see the progress. Notice how the low areas stay cross-thatched, and the high areas are being shaved. Adjust the plan. Re-mark. Repeat.

Sometimes you will make it worse. When that happens, STOP. Use ruler and winding sticks to help your eye tools see the problem, then use your brain tool and figure out why. You must figure out the process that made things worse. Once you figure it out, then you are learning. Don't make the same mistake again.

Stop taking long strokes. They feel like they are accomplishing more, but you stop paying attention and cut wood that doesn't need cutting. When you learn how to pay attention with eye and brain, then your hand will quickly develop the ability to feel how and where the blade is cutting. After this, long strokes can be useful. But not yet.

The pressure of the plane will make the board's hollow areas deflect down a tiny amount away from the blade. Not good. Same thing happens if the supporting surface is not flat. Use a flat surface.

Use shavings, newspaper, cardboard, or even strips of wood, depending on the degree, to shim and keep hollowed areas/corners from deflecting down or rocking.

Stan,
After reading your post I know that's the truth (paying attention). I start to get angry after I've been sweating my ass and probably make matters worse.

It seems so simple know after reading everyone's posts, but I'm always taking full length shavings (or at least trying to).I just assumed a long plane would automatically take down high spots, so I really haven't tried to take localized shavings except on corners.

[Michael J Evans]

What kind of planes are you using? Once you get the board laying flat put that face down. Once you get the twist out use a #6 or 7 plane to go across the board. If you're using a #4 plane this is where your problem is.

I've learned you have to use winding sticks several places along the length not just on each end like you see a lot of guys do. This will tell you where to mark the high spots. Once you get close take 2 or 3 shavings at a time.

I also use a long straight edge to check lengthwise. You can buy an expensive straight edge but I just use a level on longer boards.

Flat enough is very subjective. Its however flat it needs to be. Sorry.

Robert,
I have a 4,5,wooden jack, wooden scrub,and 2 transitional jointer (ones 21" and the other 26" I believe) I tend to go with everything I've read, jack,jointer,smoother. None of them are perfectly flat, but I doubt that's my problem. On this small table, I have strictly used the jack and 21" jointer. Hoping that the two longer planes would reduce my issues.

[Michael J Evans]

John,
I wish I could say I had bad machine habits, but Ive never owned a jointer,planer,router,mortiser etc.

The only time I've ever operated any of those machines was in high school.

I guess I'm starting opposite of most and starting with hand tools. I do own a table saw, chop saw and drill.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,
After reading your post I know that's the truth (paying attention). I start to get angry after I've been sweating my ass and probably make matters worse.

It seems so simple know after reading everyone's posts, but I'm always taking full length shavings (or at least trying to).I just assumed a long plane would automatically take down high spots, so I really haven't tried to take localized shavings except on corners.

With practice and attention, you will be able to take longer strokes, most of the time, that accomplish the same things as short localized strokes. I think that's a ways down the road for you.

Most people make the same mistake assuming a longer plane will flatten things automatically. T'aint so. It will take a flatter AVERAGE cut than a shorter plane, but it won't compensate for unthinkingly shaving down low spots while high spots remain uncorrected. Shorter planes are easier to use for taking down high spots initially.

Don't forget to cross-thatch, circle, and use your ruler and winding sticks (or alternative. I never use traditional winding sticks, but the principle is identical) a lot. If you do, you will quickly understand exactly what Warren, others, and I have written.

[Kees Heiden]

Maybe I'm being to picky about flatness both ways, I hold my straight edge or square up to my shop lights to check and there's always some gap. When the straight edge isn't held up to the light its usually all good.



What everyone said in the previous posts, but I want to highlight this quote from your post.

You are way too picky!

[john zulu]

Pauls video is a good one and one I've watched literally 15 times or more. I really hate giving up on something, so after a frustrating session I usually watch a video to think about what I'm doing wrong.

Here are 2 videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl5Srx-Ru_U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m231_HKCOWs

It is very possible to flatten the board of any length. Try to get straight grain first.
I would use a pencil over the whole board and remove the marks. Once it is removed it is on the same plane.

[david beck]

John, Thanks for the links to paul sellers videos.

[James Pallas]

The initial assessment of the material is very important. I struggled with material thicknesses at first. I tried to get 1" thicknesses out if 5/4 material 6' long with a 1/2" bow. Very hard to do. I also tried to force the thickness I wanted, "This top has to be 1" thick", 7/8" just won't do. Of course there are times when exactness is required. Things got a lot easier after I learned material assessment better. Then winding sticks, straight edges and good string. Take the high spots first, then work the material to flatness. After that you may be able to decide if you are going to finish up at the thickness you wanted. Sometimes you make it and sometimes you don't. You do have a piece that is flat and will be of value somewhere. That's my story and I'll stick to it.
Good thread by the way.
Jim

[Bill Dindner]

Great advice everyone, I'm no hand tool expert, but I have some experience, although I watch plenty of YouTube. The little skills I have in the hand tool arena have been primarily influenced by in person instruction. I took some classes and have a friend who is a hand tool junkie come over when I'm in a bind to show me how it's done.

Cant offer much in terms of specifics, but I would suggest taking some classes.

[Brian Holcombe]

Check your winding sticks with a known reference to ensure that they do in fact read correctly. Also, something I was thinking about, you may be experiencing flex in the board if it is thin, this will really drive you nuts if you are inexperienced in flattening.

[Prashun Patel]

I would find some personal instruction. If you are able to easily take 1/2" off a board you must know how to sharpen and set a plane.

i suspect you are making a simple technique mistake that will be obvious to someone who can do it easily.

If you cannot find that, then you should check your progress with each stroke of your plane.

In the end there is no substitute for sheer practice.

[lowell holmes]

If I have a high spot, I will mark them and plane away the marks, re-mark them and plane away the marks.

You track the progress this way. Try it:)

[Nicholas Lawrence]

A lot of good advice here. Having a flat bench that can support the entire stock is important, otherwise you will get flex (not necessarily just with very thin pieces). That will make it hard to plane because even a little flexing (remember your shavings have thicknesses on the order of hundreds or thousands of an inch) can drop the high spots enough that the blade skips over them.

You will then be frustrated by the fact that your straight edge sees a high spot, you have marked a high spot, just like Warren told you, but somehow it is not being taken down. That will lead you to question your straight edge, start messing around with sandpaper on your plane instead of working wood, wonder about your own eyes, lighting, sanity, etc.

Getting that first side flat and gauging from there is also very important, as are the concepts of "flat enough" "square enough" and not caring whether all of the stock is within 1/32 of whatever size is shown in your plan.

Finally, break larger stock down before flattening and squaring. I find it much easier to break down a large board into the pieces I need for the project, then flatten and square the individual pieces, as opposed to trying to flattening the whole board, and then breaking it down.

[Nathan Johnson]

I'm new to hand tools also, and will say, I ended up adding another 2x4 to my benchtop lamination because I planed away way too much material chasing flat and twist-free. The statement about questioning the straightedge and my own eyes is so, so true.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I suck with a handplane. There, I said it. I have these fancy planes, but when I try to flatten an edge to join to boards, I inevitably end up with a crown in a middle. Solution? I plane out the middle and then I suddenly have two perfectly matted boards. And yes, I guess I have seen some of the "pros" do something similar.

So, what is the point of my embarrassed :o confession? Sometimes it helps to identify the high and low spots, and then make sure that your plane cuts there.

With my meager skills, I have done a passable job of flattening things, but it takes a long time to do.

[steven c newman]

One simple little tip:

BEFORE starting to plane a surface for flat....use a pencil to draw a lot of lines across the panel. About like when you are flattening a planes sole. Plane until all the lines have gone away...You will soon see where any and all "low" spots are.

[Robert Engel]

Robert,
I have a 4,5,wooden jack, wooden scrub,and 2 transitional jointer (ones 21" and the other 26" I believe) I tend to go with everything I've read, jack,jointer,smoother. None of them are perfectly flat, but I doubt that's my problem. On this small table, I have strictly used the jack and 21" jointer. Hoping that the two longer planes would reduce my issues.

You've already gotten better advice than I can probably give, but I would just say double check your winding sticks and get a straight edge.

When taking the wind out I generally stick to 45° strokes concentrating on the high spots. Once I get acceptable results with winding stick, I alternate lengthwise and cross wise with the long plane, rechecking with winding sticks each time.

One thing I've learned is once you get the wind out, its easy to put a wind back in so keep using those sticks.

Oh, and once I've got the wind out I pencil in the areas I *don't* want to plane this keeps me concentrating on the high spots.

[William Fretwell]

First thing is to un-learn your current technique. Don't modify; start from scratch. Looking at a nice board it's easy to convince yourself you can keep most of it with a few strokes that will flatten it, but in reality it's far worse than you believe and you will have to loose some wood.

Mark the highs, work the highs, mark the highs, work the highs etc. When you have no highs (you still do!) use a long plane judiciously. Create a reference face, check for flat. Use that to score the edge for the other face & repeat. You may loose almost half the board sometimes on the longer boards. Full length finishing strokes, two or three, are the grand finale only.

You come back in a few days and the board twisted a bit, sometimes a lot! I've had wood dried for 10 years twist! Sometimes you can twist it back by wetting the board carefully and glue it in place.

Lots of good advice here because we all have the same challenge. When you buy boards be very critical of how much wood you will actually get to keep.

Everyone suffers cutting away their expensive wood, careful selection of pieces to preserve as much as possible helps. Accept that you will have garbage bags of the nicest fire starter on the planet, I do! Even the Canadian winter is not long enough to use it all.

[Patrick Chase]

Also, something I was thinking about, you may be experiencing flex in the board if it is thin, this will really drive you nuts if you are inexperienced in flattening.

I sometimes stick shims under the workpiece to deal with that, though if it's too thin that isn't practical as it just flexes "around" the shims.

[Brian Holcombe]

The shims can help, most often I just flip back and forth until I can get it to behave.

[James Pallas]

I've been using layers of shelf liner or wrapping shims in shelf liner for rough stuff. It works good and doesn't slip around. In the past I've used folded cloth or taped shims to the off side. Thin stuff is sometimes difficult. If it is really bad I have straightened one edge on a best guess basis and used the bandsaw (can I say that) to aide in the process a bit.

[Michael J Evans]

The initial assessment of the material is very important. I struggled with material thicknesses at first. I tried to get 1" thicknesses out if 5/4 material 6' long with a 1/2" bow. Very hard to do. I also tried to force the thickness I wanted, "This top has to be 1" thick", 7/8" just won't do. Of course there are times when exactness is required. Things got a lot easier after I learned material assessment better. Then winding sticks, straight edges and good string. Take the high spots first, then work the material to flatness. After that you may be able to decide if you are going to finish up at the thickness you wanted. Sometimes you make it and sometimes you don't. You do have a piece that is flat and will be of value somewhere. That's my story and I'll stick to it.
Good thread by the way.
Jim

James, the point I'm at now with the current top is this top and frame will now be 7/8".
It's a very simple nightstand being made out of leftover fir lumber from my bench build.
(top & 1 shelf) so if I don't like it, guess I'll make another.

It's not like I need more practice planing ;)

[Michael J Evans]

Check your winding sticks with a known reference to ensure that they do in fact read correctly. Also, something I was thinking about, you may be experiencing flex in the board if it is thin, this will really drive you nuts if you are inexperienced in flattening.

I wish I could convince myself that my winding sticks have any fault. But they're aluminum angle

[Michael J Evans]

I seriously do appreciate everyone's input and feel better after reading and thinking about everything.

I'll be going out to the garage in a bit and see if I can put any of this advice to use. Will report back.

[Sheldon Funk]

You have to make a mental image of the surface, noting the highs and lows. Then the low spots should not be planed at all unless maybe once at the end for uniformity. Just plane the high spots. For instance if there is twist and the near right corner and far left corner are low, you can plane the opposite diagonal, or right down the middle, but don't plane lthe diagonal that contains the low corners at all. Try marking low spots with chalk and make sure they are not touched.

It's like raking gravel, you don't rake the low spots.

[James Pallas]

In the end flat is what looks good. I don't think it has to be flat enough not to see light under a precision straight edge. Of course there are those that think they can improve on the flatness of still waters.:)
Jim

[Pat Barry]

I was once told, "You learned how to do this a long time ago. When you learned to take s stick and flatten the sand in your sandbox."
Jim


It's like raking gravel, you don't rake the low spots.

My own experience is that the above statements are not true with regards planing (although I do catch your drift). The thing is with both gravel and sand the low spots get filled in by the material removed from the high spots. This obviously doesn't happen with wood!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I'm new to hand tools also, and will say, I ended up adding another 2x4 to my benchtop lamination because I planed away way too much material chasing flat and twist-free. The statement about questioning the straightedge and my own eyes is so, so true.

Oh my goodness, that is so true.....

I purchased a rather long straight edge at Woodcraft some years back to help with this. I don't even think that they sell the one that I bought. I think that Lee Valley also has some reasonably priced longer straight edges (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=50074) the 50" model is under $100. I also have a few made by woodpeckers (https://www.woodpeck.com/serx.html and https://www.woodpeck.com/serx50.html#1938).

I own some straight rulers and such that I purchased from Sears. I think that the brand is Empire. When I contacted Stanley and asked their tolerances, well, they don't respond. When I asked Empire, they got back to me almost immediately. And you know what, for most of what I do with wood, it is close enough and much cheaper. So, sometimes I just grab my Empire ruler or level and use that.

[Patrick Chase]

Oh my goodness, that is so true.....

I purchased a rather long straight edge at Woodcraft some years back to help with this. I don't even think that they sell the one that I bought. I think that Lee Valley also has some reasonably priced longer straight edges (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=50074) the 50" model is under $100. I also have a few made by woodpeckers (https://www.woodpeck.com/serx.html and https://www.woodpeck.com/serx50.html#1938).

I own some straight rulers and such that I purchased from Sears. I think that the brand is Empire. When I contacted Stanley and asked their tolerances, well, they don't respond. When I asked Empire, they got back to me almost immediately. And you know what, for most of what I do with wood, it is close enough and much cheaper. So, sometimes I just grab my Empire ruler or level and use that.

Oh, heavens no. You clearly need a Starrett 385 (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/precision-rules-straight-edges-parallels/Straight-Edges/385-48#Specifications) or similar to maximize the quality of your woodworking. The inherent instability of the medium can only be addressed by using the finest, machinist-oriented tools. Just make sure that your furniture always stays in a precisely climate-controlled setting, like a museum :-):-);-).

Seriously, Empire's stuff is all over the place. I have a 72" Empire straightedge/level that's post-machined to within a few mils along its entire length, verified by comparison to a Starrett 385. IMO that's more than good enough for woodworking, though Brian has more refined standards and lapped his similar tool to improve its tolerances :-). Empire's combination squares can be out of square by several mils within the first inch due to warping of the head, which I personally consider to be inadequate.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

[QUOTE=Patrick Chase;2720727Empire's combination squares can be out of square by several mils within the first inch due to warping of the head, which I personally consider to be inadequate.[/QUOTE]

I have a plastic head Stanley and a metal Empire square. I rarely use either since I own some more accurate squares. I have considered getting rid these two, but i should probably check them out of curiosity. I just assumed that the Stanley could not possibly be accurate, and I always assumed that the Empire was because the ruler I use for a straight edge sometimes is pretty good.