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Ole Anderson
08-23-2017, 10:50 AM
I was enjoying the back and forth of the botched stair thread and looking forward to the final resolution. Did the OP delete the whole thing? If so, I really wouldn't blame him. Or am I just not finding it? I agree, it was getting personal. Usually they just get closed, not deleted.

Lee Schierer
08-23-2017, 10:55 AM
It was removed because the thread had gone off the rails. There was name calling and piling on. Any post that does that will be removed.

Chuck Wintle
08-23-2017, 11:00 AM
I was enjoying the back and forth of the botched stair thread and looking forward to the final resolution. Did the OP delete the whole thing? If so, I really wouldn't blame him. Or am I just not finding it? I agree, it was getting personal. Usually they just get closed, not deleted.
Probably because some were getting flamed and this is supposed to be a "friendly" forum. :D

Keith Outten
08-23-2017, 12:40 PM
Its difficult to justify calling anyone stupid here, in fact it is what I consider an unfriendly term. Nothing wrong with a spirited conversation and disagreements when they happen as long as everyone shows respect for their peers here.
.

Ole Anderson
08-23-2017, 12:58 PM
Some PM's from the mods to the name callers might be in order. I fully agree, some of the comments were not in the spirit of the Creek, and I called them out on it. Surprised I didn't get more support.

Mel Fulks
08-23-2017, 1:08 PM
Surprised I didn't get more support.

There was agreement ,but you are right, should have been more support.

Doug Garson
08-23-2017, 3:52 PM
Seems to me a more appropriate response would have been PMs to those violating the spirit of the forum and deleting the offending posts rather than punishing the innocent along with the guilty. It was an interesting post with some lessons to be learned. Will we ever know if/how the issue got resolved?

Lee Schierer
08-23-2017, 8:53 PM
Seems to me a more appropriate response would have been PMs to those violating the spirit of the forum and deleting the offending posts rather than punishing the innocent along with the guilty. It was an interesting post with some lessons to be learned. Will we ever know if/how the issue got resolved?

PM's do get sent and sometimes folks get temporary or permanent suspensions, when it gets to the point where editing would make the thread look like Swiss cheese it is best to just remove it.

Frederick Skelly
08-23-2017, 9:56 PM
Seems to me a more appropriate response would have been PMs to those violating the spirit of the forum and deleting the offending posts rather than punishing the innocent along with the guilty. It was an interesting post with some lessons to be learned. Will we ever know if/how the issue got resolved?

Hi guys,
I've seen variants on that same viewpoint discussed 3 times in the few years I've been coming here. Sometimes it's caused hard feelings and folks have left, never to return. Really skilled people. I can also think of a Moderator who threw in the towel after one of those food fights. So, the subject of how to handle threads like that is REALLY emotionally charged.

I don't mean to sound like a pompous you-know-what, but I'd ask all of us to remember that the Mods are: handling a lot of threads, trying to do a good job, and volunteers. They work for the Community and they do it for free. So please try to cut them some slack where you can. At least give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

Respectfully,
Fred

Doug Garson
08-23-2017, 10:31 PM
Hi guys,
I've seen variants on that same viewpoint discussed 3 times in the few years I've been coming here. Sometimes it's caused hard feelings and folks have left, never to return. Really skilled people. I can also think of a Moderator who threw in the towel after one of those food fights. So, the subject of how to handle threads like that is REALLY emotionally charged.

I don't mean to sound like a pompous you-know-what, but I'd ask all of us to remember that the Mods are: handling a lot of threads, trying to do a good job, and volunteers. They work for the Community and they do it for free. So please try to cut them some slack where you can. At least give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

Respectfully,
Fred
Fred I don't disagree with you and I don't think my comment was overly critical, just expressing my opinion.

"PM's do get sent and sometimes folks get temporary or permanent suspensions, when it gets to the point where editing would make the thread look like Swiss cheese it is best to just remove it."

Lee I appreciate the work you and the other mods do, I agree there were some inappropriate posts but I didn't think it was out of control and I was looking forward to learning if/how the OP resolved this issue. I also thought it was an interesting discussion on whether code compliance was the responsibility of the contractor or the owner. If you and the other mods felt it was necessary to shut it down then so be it.
Doug

Frederick Skelly
08-23-2017, 10:38 PM
Thanks Doug. I didnt either. Just wanted to mention how emotionally charged the issue is.
Have a good evening.
Fred

Lee Schierer
08-24-2017, 8:15 AM
I also thought it was an interesting discussion on whether code compliance was the responsibility of the contractor or the owner. If you and the other mods felt it was necessary to shut it down then so be it.
Doug

Code compliance is a joint responsibility. As a property owner you are ultimately responsible as it is your property and your pocketbook that will be affected. Contractors are supposed to be knowledgeable, but knowledge varies widely. When in doubt you need to get the local code enforcement types to make the decisions regarding code compliance. You also need to remember that codes deal with safety and structure not cosmetics and are the minimum requirements.

Scott Brader
08-24-2017, 8:50 AM
Its difficult to justify calling anyone stupid here, in fact it is what I consider an unfriendly term. Nothing wrong with a spirited conversation and disagreements when they happen as long as everyone shows respect for their peers here.
.

Great point, Keith! The anonymity of the Internet; be it on forums or "social" media or whatever, seems to cause a lot of people to lose all common sense and interact with people in ways they never would if they were looking them in the eye.

I wish we had a thumbs up button, or something, so we could weigh in with our agreement without having to do a full reply.

Scott

Edwin Santos
08-24-2017, 4:57 PM
Code compliance is a joint responsibility. As a property owner you are ultimately responsible as it is your property and your pocketbook that will be affected. Contractors are supposed to be knowledgeable, but knowledge varies widely. When in doubt you need to get the local code enforcement types to make the decisions regarding code compliance. You also need to remember that codes deal with safety and structure not cosmetics and are the minimum requirements.

Perhaps I respectfully disagree with you (depending on what you mean by joint responsibility). I believe a licensed contractor carries a much larger burden than the homeowner regarding code compliance responsibility. The homeowner is relying on the contractor's knowledge which was hopefully proven as a part of his/her license qualification and exam. Think of a lawyer/client relationship. Following your logic, yes, the client is ultimately responsible in the sense they "own" their legal matter and the ultimate consequences, but they are within their rights to totally rely on their licensed attorney for his/her specialized knowledge of the law. Same with a doctor/patient relationship. If the client/homeowner/patient is knowledgeable, it's a helpful bonus, but they also have the privilege of having no knowledge at all and placing their reliance on the licensed professional. I don't feel there is ever a case where a licensed contractor completes work that is non-compliant with code, and it can be deemed the homeowner's fault.

This is another reason why only using licensed and insured contractors, and checking license history and references is important. I don't like getting anyone in trouble, but if a contractor does work that is not compliant with code, and they are unwilling to resolve it, they should be reported to the Contractor's Board.

You make a good point about turning to local code enforcement officials if there is a question. Those folks are there to protect the public and part of their job is to be an available resource to us. We've paid for that service with our tax dollars. The contractor's Board is also available to help the public when issues arise (I didn't read the whole stair thread before it was deleted, so maybe that was discussed).

Lee Schierer
08-24-2017, 5:01 PM
I believe a licensed contractor carries a much larger burden than the homeowner regarding code compliance responsibility.

It depends on whether the contractor is in fact licensed and the licensing procedure as to whether it determines any level of competence. Licensing processes vary widely by municipality.

Ken Fitzgerald
08-24-2017, 10:57 PM
Lee,

To your point, I don't know what the current requirements are but in the State of Idaho, a few years ago, all it took was paying the license fee to become licensed according to my neighbor, a licensed painting contractor.

Doug Garson
08-25-2017, 12:56 AM
Interesting discussion, I would venture to guess that the average homeowner probably isn't aware of all the codes that are applicable to a renovation project and too many of them consider a building permit an unnecessary expense that will add cost to the job, cause delays etc. and might even consider a building inspector to be the enemy. Many are also not skilled in evaluating prospective contractors and unlikely to know that, for example, a licensed flooring installer is not qualified to work on stairs and might be intimidated by the idea of asking potential contractors for references, proof of insurance, proof of current licenses etc.
Not sure what the answer is, I admit I've not fully vetted a few contractors in my day and relied on my instincts to select a contractor instead, not insisted on a permit and never been burnt.

Lee Schierer
08-25-2017, 7:26 AM
Lee,

To your point, I don't know what the current requirements are but in the State of Idaho, a few years ago, all it took was paying the license fee to become licensed according to my neighbor, a licensed painting contractor.

Exactly my point.

Ole Anderson
08-25-2017, 11:52 AM
Interesting discussion, I would venture to guess that the average homeowner probably isn't aware of all the codes that are applicable to a renovation project and too many of them consider a building permit an unnecessary expense that will add cost to the job, cause delays etc. and might even consider a building inspector to be the enemy. Many are also not skilled in evaluating prospective contractors and unlikely to know that, for example, a licensed flooring installer is not qualified to work on stairs and might be intimidated by the idea of asking potential contractors for references, proof of insurance, proof of current licenses etc.
Not sure what the answer is, I admit I've not fully vetted a few contractors in my day and relied on my instincts to select a contractor instead, not insisted on a permit and never been burnt.

Excellent answer. Thumbs up.

Edwin Santos
08-26-2017, 11:22 AM
Lee,

To your point, I don't know what the current requirements are but in the State of Idaho, a few years ago, all it took was paying the license fee to become licensed according to my neighbor, a licensed painting contractor.

That's really something. Seems like quite a disservice to the public and to the qualified contractors in that particular state. To Lee's point, if the expectation is that all, including the proverbial little old lady, ought to be knowledgeable and researched in building codes in order to hire out work in their homes, I'm not sure it's very realistic.

It's amazing how much variance there can be from state to state. In some states there are organized procedures, rules and standards, and it seems like in others, anything goes.

Jerome Stanek
08-26-2017, 4:52 PM
A friend moved to SC and tried to pass the test there when I told him I was licensed in WV and he laughed at me and said what kind of test did you have to take and I said the same one you failed 3 times

Frederick Skelly
08-26-2017, 6:36 PM
A friend moved to SC and tried to pass the test there when I told him I was licensed in WV and he laughed at me and said what kind of test did you have to take and I said the same one you failed 3 times

Bet that shut him up! :D
Fred

Jerome Stanek
08-26-2017, 7:29 PM
His best buddy was there with me and he had a good laugh because we were going to WV to do a job that no one else in the room could take on due to no license.