Crucible dividers?

[Frederick Skelly]

Has anyone ordered Crucible's new dividers (https://crucibletool.com/collections/tools/products/crucible-improved-pattern-dividers)? I must admit I got a severe case of sticker shock when I saw the cost - $187 (for just one pair), including domestic shipping.

I'll bet they're darn nice tools though.

Thoughts?

Fred

[ken hatch]

Fred,

I assume you mean by one pair a single divider, if so, yep a little pricey. If for a pair of dividers not so much. A pair of Starrett 6" are around $160 USD at WoodCraft.

ken

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred,

I assume you mean by one pair a single divider, if so, yep a little pricey. If for a pair of dividers not so much. A pair of Starrett 6" are around $160 USD at WoodCraft.

ken

Yeah Ken, the way I read their website it's $187 for a single tool. I was hoping maybe it was for two - then I coulda talked myself into it. But I just couldnt get there for a single tool.

But I'd love to hear from folks who have them. They look like they'll feel good in your hand and work beautifully.

Fred

[bridger berdel]

They are competing with a large stock of vintage tools, some needing a little fettling but few selling above $10. I have a large drawer full of dividers of a great variety of sizes and styles. I'm quite sure that I have less than $187 invested in the lot.

That said, they look like nice tools. I wish them luck.

[Roger Nair]

I favor dividers with a spring loaded quadrant, easy to set to a fine tolerance and holds the setting well. I would guess this design is harder to set.

[Simon MacGowen]

I think you are right. One pair means just one unit, as in a pair of glasses.

Now some people complain about the new Combo Plane being pricey at $399!

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

They are competing with a large stock of vintage tools, some needing a little fettling but few selling above $10. I have a large drawer full of dividers of a great variety of sizes and styles. I'm quite sure that I have less than $187 invested in the lot.

That said, they look like nice tools. I wish them luck.

Increasingly, tools that fall into the boutique category need to be priced high to attract attention and spending. Yes, that pair is pricey but I don't think sales is a big issue at the beginning. As long as they don't keep making batches and batches of dividers when sales slows down and disappears, their inventory costs should not be high.

Simon

[Rick Malakoff]

I have to say that they look quite elegant for a pair of dividers, a pair meaning two legs like a pair of jeans. 187$ buys lots of jeans or other stuff to put in your kit.
Recently I purchased 4 pair 2 strait leg one each inside and outside all at a buck each, they all do their job. But then again I'm on the thrifty side.
Rick
366599

[Mike Henderson]

That's an absurd price for a set of dividers. You can get name brand dividers on eBay for a LOT less than that.

And one thing I don't like about those expensive ones - they don't have a "spinner" at the top. When you use dividers, you're often stepping off spaces (such as for dovetails) and a spinner makes it a lot easier.

If you don't want a spinner, buy some inside calipers and grind the legs to a point. You'll have a set of dividers without a spinner.

Mike

[Joe Tilson]

In the details, the word architect tells the whole story. Architects don't do anything cheaply. Looks is everything.:D

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have used them but do not own them. They are very well made and true works of art. As for the price- well, that's why I don't own one. I don't think their target market are people that consider price over quality- to an extreme.

[Rick Malakoff]

Speaking of no spinner, got these at the Millers Falls factory store in Greenfield MA summer of 74. They came with 2 strait legs and a bent one so you could turn it in or out and effectively use it for same. Not having a spinner is it's biggest draw back but the fact that it will hold a pencil negates that 100%.
Rick
366624

[george wilson]

There are many old dividers to be found in flea markets for a few dollars each. But,the old ones are usually at least brown all over,or rustier. Personally,I have always used the more modern type as mentioned,with the spinner on top,and screw adjustable legs.

I have a divider similar to the MF just above,except it is a Starrett. Bright finished,and with extra legs. Made to hold a pencil in one leg if desired. Mine never got rusty. I was in Delaware at the time,and found them in a pawn shop for $3.00.

[lowell holmes]

I was a Quartermaster in the Navy. We were involved with navigation. Those look like navigator dividers. I have a similar pair here by my computer.

[Mel Fulks]

I've got a hand made pair that I think are unusual. No adjustment arc or spinner,taper is long and graceful. In playing with them I saw that they would be alternately loose and tight enough to use. When adjusting them you can turn the hinge part with thumb and forefinger while adjusting and make them tight. Opinions vary as to whether that is an intentional feature
for quick adjustment or irritating flaw. Joint looks like cam. Would love to post pic, and a friend here gratiously PMd good instructions. But I have not practiced, my wife might do it.

[Hasin Haroon]

I wondered about the price of the crucible tools too. They look amazingly made, and I'm sure they're a treat to use (they also look super cool), but at that price I just can't see myself buying a pair, and I'm terrible with my money when it comes to tools. I just can't see myself getting an extra $150 worth of divider from one.
I have a couple of the french dividers sold by Lee Valley and they are excellent and look very good (the brass/black combo is always attractive). I also have some vintage ones that are great too.

[Roger Nair]

For example, here is a link to an Osborne 6 inch divider that I feel is a superior design for hair splitting control over dimensions.
https://www.amazon.com/C-S-Osborne-106-6-Divider-Maximum-opening/dp/B004RGY8TC/ref=pd_day0_469_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=C54RM4HWWEV2N8P8CSF1

[Patrick Chase]

I wondered about the price of the crucible tools too. They look amazingly made, and I'm sure they're a treat to use (they also look super cool), but at that price I just can't see myself buying a pair, and I'm terrible with my money when it comes to tools. I just can't see myself getting an extra $150 worth of divider from one.
I have a couple of the french dividers sold by Lee Valley and they are excellent and look very good (the brass/black combo is always attractive). I also have some vintage ones that are great too.

They have to pay for that Haas TM-2 (https://baq.haascnc.com/quote/Vertical-Mills/Toolroom/TM-2#gsc.tab=0) somehow... (see the first picture here (https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/11/raney-nelson-crucibles-machine-head/))

[Lee Schierer]

I was a Quartermaster in the Navy. We were involved with navigation. Those look like navigator dividers. I have a similar pair here by my computer.

When I need to use dividers or a compass, I use my drafting tools or my old navigating dividers. The points are sharp and they hold their position.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Once again, I blame you guys for my lack of money. This thread aroused my curiosity and I searched eBay, found these, and bought them. They may get used for navigation instead of woodworking. I will decide once I get them in hand.

By the way, I know you guys like the "spinner" but I walk the dividers with the legs, which gives more control, but it's pretty much a non-issue either way. I have plenty of both type.

[Lee Schierer]

When I need to draw a circle or use dividers I use either my drafting set with the thumbscrew adjustment or my navigation dividers.

[Ted Phillips]

I have to admit that I bought a pair - and I don't have a better-made tool in my entire shop. There are very few "perfect" tools in this world, and these come darned close. The fit and finish is superb, the heft is impressive, the action is smooth and reliable. I keep them at my desk where I do most of my layouts and planning. They aren't far from my hands any time I'm in the shop.

Plus, it is kind of cool buying tools from folks you know personally - like Dave Jeske (https://bluesprucetoolworks.com/pages/about) at Blue Spruce Tools, Chris Kuehn (http://www.sterlingtoolworks.com/about-us/) at Sterling Toolworks and Mark Harrell (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/about-me.php) at Bad Axe Toolworks. I know I'm paying these artisans for their hard work, blood, sweat, and tears. That's something you can't often say about buying a pair of cheap used dividers off of eBay.

[Frederick Skelly]

Good deal Ted. Glad you're enjoying them!

[Simon MacGowen]

Spending is seldom rationalized. In other words, what is rational to you may be irrational to me and vice versa. As long as it is not public money, we don't need to justify our purchase decisions. If you think your $150 was well spent on a nice dovetail saw, ask your neighbor who cuts his 2x4 with a $30 saw and he may think you are nuts.

Whether it is dividers or a plane, we pay what we think it is worth.

Simon

[ken hatch]

I have to admit that I bought a pair - and I don't have a better-made tool in my entire shop. There are very few "perfect" tools in this world, and these come darned close. The fit and finish is superb, the heft is impressive, the action is smooth and reliable. I keep them at my desk where I do most of my layouts and planning. They aren't far from my hands any time I'm in the shop.

Plus, it is kind of cool buying tools from folks you know personally - like Dave Jeske (https://bluesprucetoolworks.com/pages/about) at Blue Spruce Tools, Chris Kuehn (http://www.sterlingtoolworks.com/about-us/) at Sterling Toolworks and Mark Harrell (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/about-me.php) at Bad Axe Toolworks. I know I'm paying these artisans for their hard work, blood, sweat, and tears. That's something you can't often say about buying a pair of cheap used dividers off of eBay.

Ted,

As I would have said back in the '60s..."Right on Dude". Good tools will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of bad tools, or something like that. I believe in supporting the artisans in our field.

ken

[Bill McDermott]

In line with Ted here. I bought them as my souvenir from Handworks, as a way to support some of the responsible parties. I already have all the dividers, compasses and calipers I need. They are all quite old, but excellent. The Crucible dividers are different in that they are not finished when you take delivery. It is the owner's responsibility to fettle them. They are not sharp, not close. It is your job to bring the tips to a point. Also, they are not perfectly tuned at the hinge. You need to at the very least lubricate and break them in. I did a bit of fettling on the faces at the elbow. Since the "rivet" is actually a bolt, you can creep up on exactly the action you want. There was also one very small bit of material I removed to make them mate together perfectly when closed. The milling removed an inside corner to a very small radius where the mating part had a sharp corner - which was rounded to match. So... not only are they pricey, but they also arrive with "some assembly required". Definitely not for everyone. But I am very pleased.

[Hasin Haroon]

Bill, I commend you for supporting small manufacturing - I am no stranger to paying a bit extra to support a local business. That said, you are a lot kinder than I am...if I bought a $187 pair of dividers, I would expect them to be perfectly finished, sharpened and fettled, and no less.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Bill, I commend you for supporting small manufacturing - I am no stranger to paying a bit extra to support a local business. That said, you are a lot kinder than I am...if I bought a $187 pair of dividers, I would expect them to be perfectly finished, sharpened and fettled, and no less.

I completely agree. I think I will start selling chunks of steel bolted together, marketed as "dividers that you get to personally fine-tune." Starting price $250.

[George Wall]

The blog on Crucible Tools' site explains in some detail why their dividers cost what they do, and why they leave some fine tuning up to the user. Obviously, they are not going to be for everyone, and the founders of Crucible make that very clear in their blog. It's an interesting read even if you have absolutely zero interest in spending that much on dividers.

Like any business that's just starting out, their odds of success are long. But at least they are trying to do something that results in jobs being created locally.

[Simon MacGowen]

The blog on Crucible Tools' site explains in some detail why their dividers cost what they do, and why they leave some fine tuning up to the user.

Not a subscriber or follower of their blog, I was surprised to hear that such an expensive tool would not be ready out of the box for its new owner.

If such information is also made known on the ordering page (for the benefit of those who don't read blogs), then I see no problem in their business model. Not every tool comes fully assembled or ready to use out of the box; for most planes, you cannot use them new until you hone the blades.

As for supporting artisans, we all have different stands on that. Are they businesspersons or artisans? What about companies that are employers of artisans? Are we supporting their businesses or the artisans they employ when we buy their products? Or are we supporting the industry as a whole? The local economy? Only each of us can decide what we are supporting and no right or wrong answers are out there. Same thing about buying only goods made in certain places vs imported products.

Simon

[Pat Barry]

It's too expensive for them to sharpen the tips in their shop or even clock the screw? That explains everything about why these are so expensive. That and the fact they are basically a hobby / boutique manufacturer. I'd rather spend the money on something more essential than a pair of seldom used dividers. By the way, is anyone listing for the bamboo french curves or the similarly expensive holdfast.

[Mike Henderson]

Like any business that's just starting out, their odds of success are long. But at least they are trying to do something that results in jobs being created locally.

It really helps very little if the business is not run to be successful. I suppose they will find a few people willing to pay their prices, but they might be more successful if they made products that many people want and can afford.

Mike

[As an example, if you Google search on "holdfast tool" you'll find many for under $50, some for way under $50. Here's a place (https://www.etsy.com/listing/263156604/woodworking-holdfaststwo-handmade?gpla=1&gao=0&utm_campaign=shopping_us_NoHarmInFarmin_sfc_osa&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_custom1=0&utm_content=10649169&gclid=Cj0KCQjwoZTNBRCWARIsAOMZHmEHenSif4vazquH59RM jFkB4PQO419RjVsax97Tb1hUOWMfZgjp_a4aAry-EALw_wcB) that hand makes them and sells two for $38 ($19 a piece). Now, maybe someone wants a super finished holdfast, or wants an expensive one to brag about, but the majority of people will attempt to maximize their "gain" for the minimum price.

I doubt if there are enough people who want a set of super premium dividers to make a successful business.]

[Hasin Haroon]

Simon, I don't disagree with what you're saying here. But I would like to point out that for the woodworking tool market, once we get into planes for example, one can purchase a $250 Veritas plane that has already been sharpened, finished and fettled to perfection - a plane is relatively complex compared to dividers, and at around $190, I would think they could afford to finish the tool for the user. Just my two cents - initially I though Crucible dividers, like any other high priced tool come perfectly finished, and in my mind could see why someone might want to pay that much for them....now I'm not so sure.

I did just read their blog, and it doesn't sound very convincing. It would be like Lie Nielsen shipping a blade ground at close to 90 degrees and saying different angles work for different people, so do what you want with it.

[Tom Stenzel]

The Crucibles are too rich for my blood. The doghouse in the yard isn't big enough for both me and my mutt. But I don't begrudge anyone that wants to buy them.

Decades from now the grandkids will look at it and wonder why grandpa liked them so much. Then someone else will get to pick them up for a few bucks at a garage sale, or whatever they have 50-60 years from now.

The wing type Pexto dividers I use were my grandfathers and came to me brown all over. I've left them that way.

-Tom

[Simon MacGowen]

It really helps very little if the business is not run to be successful. I suppose they will find a few people willing to pay their prices, but they might be more successful if they made products that many people want and can afford.

Mike
As I see it, the principals are pursuing a "following" strategy. That is they create a following under the LAP flagship and the followers will buy tools associated with the LAP. They dont need to appeal to the general consumers most of whom cant afford or wont be willing to pay for a boutique item. Look, it is time and money to create and maintain the following. It costs money to write blogs, make responses, etc. As always, some will succeed and some will fail in a flash. The business world has always been like that.

This isnt a new business strategy but has been made more potent and effective because of the invention of social media. If the social media were shut down tomorrow, most businesses modeled after this strategy would fold in no time because they could not reach their targeted buyers or maintain the following.

Not too long ago on Paul Sellers' site, people talked about Sellers endorsing (like sports stars) products or creating his own brand of products. No other online teachers have a following close to Sellers these days (even though he had a late start) and imagine his success if he launched a tool. There are no signs he will but if he did, he could sell more snake oil as a finishing product than anyone could dream about. Oil made in the uk too, not imported.

The loyal followers feel being part of the family and feel the obligations to render their support. Social media have totally changed a lot of things including businesses.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

The loyal followers feel being part of the family and feel the obligations to render their support. Social media have totally changed a lot of things including businesses.

Simon

Maybe. I really doubt if the principles of economics have been suspended because of social media. In fashion, we see people buy a "name" in order to show that they are hip or rich enough to buy it, but I kind of doubt if that strategy applies to tools.

And even if it did, we see the results when the hip people move to a new "name" fashion.

Overall, the marketplace is based on the idea that the buyer feels s/he is getting the best value for their money. For fashion items, that feeling is very transient.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

IMO, whether it's ok, foolish or whatever to sell the Crucible dividers at that price is ultimately up to the people who buy 'em. Or don't. It's too rich for my blood, but so are Woodpeckers, Bridge City and any other number of toolmakers.

Putting it in perspective though, there are a TON of people on this board (including me) who salivate at every new offering from LV. Yet our friend Steve Newman regularly reminds us that he's doing good work with old tools that he bought cheaply and rehabbed. To Steve, it might seem just as foolish to pay $400 for LV's new combo plane as it does to me to pay $200 for dividers.

Likewise, for me, a $5000 Euro slider is not needed. But a WHOLE LOT of folks on SMC have them and just love them. Ditto with Festool. And while I'm certain I'd love them too, it's not something I personally need/want.

So I guess that's a long winded way to say that I agree it's up to the buyer. :D
Fred

[Hasin Haroon]

Frederick, you make a good point, basically YMMV. But what I'd like to point out is that for all of your examples, yes, they are the expensive options, and do the same work cheaper tools do, BUT the difference is that their manufacturers all hold themselves to a very high standard, providing the customer with a tool that works perfectly out of the box/better than their competitors/to a higher degree of accuracy or precision.

That being said, different strokes for different folks, and I admit, those dividers look very cool, for what it's worth.

[Graham Haydon]

Simon, you make an excellent point. Mike, I think you're wrong. As Simon has pointed out, the business model they have could work very well. Schwarz is a hardworking person and has captured the imagination of many. I don't feel the need to purchase the dividers, but I'm sure plenty of people well. The target market seems to be those who have the money spare, perhaps to have as a special gift or for those who will prioritise them as a purchase. For small makers, this is the only market.
I just think it is worth pointing out, in terms of practical application the crucible dividers will not offer any improvement over any other appropriate quality divider. Thankfully, people are free to choose how they spend their money.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

My eBay find arrived yesterday. They are gorgeous, very tight, and extremely sharp! (Gloat)

[James Pallas]

Fredrick, Crucible should send you a pair for free. Would cost them a fortune to get the advertising they'll get from you starting this thread, haha!
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

Fredrick, Crucible should send you a pair for free. Would cost them a fortune to get the advertising they'll get from you starting this thread, haha!
Jim

It cuts both ways. Some sitting on the fence might be put off by the idea that it is not an out of the box tool. Of course, Fred's thread may have brought this product to the notice of some who never knew about it.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

My eBay find arrived yesterday. They are gorgeous, very tight, and extremely sharp! (Gloat)

I agree these are very nice pairs of dividers and boutique dividers should be sold with their tips sharp. But look at what you have done. Everyone will now be bidding up any future pairs of dividers like yours!:D

Simon

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I agree these are very nice pairs of dividers and boutique dividers should be sold with their tips sharp. But look at what you have done. Everyone will now be bidding up any future pairs of dividers like yours!:D

Simon

I literally said that with all the buzz about dividers, I need to get a good set before folks start bidding them up. Boom. One step ahead.

[George Wall]

To address a couple of comments, Crucible makes it very clear on their ordering page that you need to sharpen the dividers, and have included a video and text instructions. From the video, it would take most folks only a minute or two, and then they're probably done sharpening them for at least a couple of years. They probably figure that the people willing to pay that money for a divider would also be the same folks that would be willing to spend a couple of minutes honing the points.

The other adjustment is the tension or tightness. You don't need to (or shouldn't) peen anything. Instead, you take the included bit and adjust the tightness to your liking. That step is optional in the event that you find them tight enough as shipped. Either way, it's probably less than a minute to adjust. And you can later readjust in case you decide you like them more or less tight.

Personally, they are too rich for my blood. But that could be said of Festool as well ($300 for a cordless drill? Seriously?). Or any other vendor of premium products. Also, I do believe their first release of the dividers cost quite a bit less than the current price. They sold out of them within a day, and they later indicated in their blog that they had some manufacturing issues that were going to result in their needing to bump the price by quite a bit.

Crucible is targeting a small, niche market. As for the price, not everyone will want their products, and they are perfectly OK with that. Again, the same could be said of a number of the smaller, niche businesses that cater to this hobby. As Simon noted, it's a value judgment we all need to make; there is no right or wrong answer here.

[Simon MacGowen]

Schwarz is a hardworking person and has captured the imagination of many. Thankfully, people are free to choose how they spend their money.

Chris and Paul both have a huge following but they pursued differently in how they captured their followers.

Chris - Carefully cultivates relationships over a long period of time (since PW days of course) with players in the field (major hand tool makers, writers, other small artisans, etc.) locally and overseas. His connections in today's woodworking (hand tool) world are second to none. He does not side with Lie-Nielsen or Veritas, both are friendly to him. He supports all others in the field whenever he can. He invests in building relationships. He makes it a point that he supports local or US businesses; he could have saved a lot by having his books printed in China which is pretty much the largest printing factory in the world. He makes an effort to nurture and expand his network, which directly or indirectly grows his following as those players have their own supporters.

Paul - Confident and a true woodworker by all definitions, has tasted success during his time in the US. Who else, a foreigner, do you know who has done furniture work for the White House? In this respect, he is in the class of Sam Maloof, except Sam an American. He is more like Norm Abram, a born teacher and presenter, drawing viewers to him with little effort. He works hard to make woodworking by hand look easy, but often showing his human side that people can relate to: Oops...he says as he makes a mistake and then goes on to fix it, right in front of your eyes. He planes against the grain and then says so as he turns the stock around, making him just like one of us. How can you not follow an accomplished woodworker who makes you feel you can do what he does? Unlike Chris, he doesn't mingle with other woodworkers or tool makers in the field. When did you ever see or hear him mention another woodworker by name...unless when he was to point out a technical mistake that he wanted corrected?

Different approaches but same objective: To create, expand and maintain an audience that will stick around. Social media have made both of their approaches easier to succeed.

Simon

[Bill Houghton]

Ted,

As I would have said back in the '60s..."Right on Dude". Good tools will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of bad tools, or something like that. I believe in supporting the artisans in our field.

ken
But there's also such a thing as good enough. I will confess that I prefer my Starrett No. 85 dividers (multi-purpose tool with the divider legs in them), but I sure would never have paid retail for them. Cheaper dividers, wing or machinist, will get the job done just as well.

[Kees Heiden]

One of my neighbours bought a BMW 3 series Touring. Isn't he raving mad? The stupid thing costs 41.000 euros! My Skoda from 2007 with 230.000 km on the clock brings me up and down to Spain just fine, thank you very much. And it only cost me 4000.....

(Some people just have a bit more money then me or different priorities. Luckilly for me the second hand market is huge. The neighbour is a nice guy of course).

[Todd Stock]

Crucible did two small runs that sold out in a very short time, and at about $140, IIRC. The higher price is said to reflect their costs of production, but I suspect that it's more market pricing and an understanding that Crucible's customers know that there is absolutely no functional advantage to be had over a set of $12 Chinese dividers.

[Simon MacGowen]

One of my neighbours bought a BMW 3 series Touring. Isn't he raving mad? The stupid thing costs 41.000 euros! My Skoda from 2007 with 230.000 km on the clock brings me up and down to Spain just fine, thank you very much. And it only cost me 4000.....

(Some people just have a bit more money then me or different priorities. Luckilly for me the second hand market is huge. The neighbour is a nice guy of course).

And all those who fly suite class (paying say, $15,000 US) or first class (20 times an econ fare seat) in the same plane with me arriving at the same international destination on the same day and at the same time should all be locked up in a mental institution, right?

$190? That would cover may be the insurance fee.

Most amateur woodworkers have money to spend; there is always a cheaper hobby out there!

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

People can do with their money as they please.

My latest pair of dividers was a bit 'high priced' for my taste at $15. But what the heck, you only live once.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?249760-Shop-Dividers

366978

They have been through about a century of use so far, maybe they can make it another.

jtk

[Steve Kang]

Here's another option, vergez blanchard dividers which are hand made in France and can be had for $69.99 each.
367062

[Stanley Covington]

I have never even held Crucible's dividers, but I cannot imagine them being worthy of the fetish some apparently have for them.

Perhaps the equipment depreciation length, during which time only dividers will be made, is one year? That is the only practical explanation of the price. More than likely, production costs have little to do with the price, only marketing.

I suspect they will continue to sell well, because people will pay a lot of extra money just for the Schwarz brand, just as fans pay horrendously inflated prices for sportswear with the name and logo of their favorite sports team. Nothing wrong with that.

[William Fretwell]

I picked up some brass navigation dividers with the bulge at the top for holding and spinning, unused for $3 at a yard sale. They have precision points that only penetrate one layer of chart paper when you apply the precise amount of force!

[Todd Stock]

I've used the one-handed Weems and Plath dividers for everything from chart work to woodworking since the early 1970's...brass body with stainless steel tips, easily sharpened with a slip stone, possessing an effective tensioning scheme, and very rugged . The older models made in England lack the funky drum-shaped junctions between shaft and adjustment head of the more recent Asian-sourced models, so I've squirreled away a half-dozen older pairs of the 7" model. They lack the micro-adjust of the Starrett and Osbourne models, but when set up properly, do a fine job for repetitive layout tasks.

[Stanley Covington]

I've used the one-handed Weems and Plath dividers for everything from chart work to woodworking since the early 1970's...brass body with stainless steel tips, easily sharpened with a slip stone, possessing an effective tensioning scheme, and very rugged .

I have a very old W&P divider a friend gave me many moons ago, but made before stainless steel was available so with HC tips. Excellent tool in every way,and quite elegant in appearance, much more so than the Crucible product, IMO. A new one cost only $37 http://www.weems-plath.com/Website-Navigation-WP-Layout/Dividers/Straight-Pattern-Divider.html

[Pat Barry]

So much discussion about a simple but seldom used tool. What exactly are you guys doing that would require such an expensive solution?

[Simon MacGowen]

So much discussion about a simple but seldom used tool. What exactly are you guys doing that would require such an expensive solution?

I suppose people love toys. Except that in this case or other similar cases, they happen to be woodworking tools or accessories.

A couple of years ago, I came to learn about a turned handle for a fret saw that was asking for $80 or so. $80 for the handle, not the saw, which was about $100(?). If you were a friend of mine and paid $100 for a fret saw that does the same job as any other $20 fret saws, I would still call you a woodworking friend of mine. But if you were an active turner and still paid $80 for that handle, I would only call you a friend of mine, but not a woodworking friend anymore.

Somehow, consciously or subconsciously, people in the industry are driving woodworking into pure consumerism. I am not talking about innovation or product improvements or functional upgrades, but pure cosmetic enhancements and bling. These products are easily recognized and can carry all sorts of labels in disguise. Edit: You will also see bloggers and reviewers promoting those products, not in the name of advertising (which is better) but as "user experience" or the like.

[Allen Jordan]

Absurd price as usual, but at least these don't seem to be made of cast iron like the silly holdfasts. Machining looks nice. But I think I'll stick with my old pair that cost $5. A divider just isn't a tool that requires that level of quality.

[Roger Nair]

My experience as a carpenter and timber framer has lead me into investigating the layout tools of the past. Before computers and steel tapes, carpenters and builders used dividers and trammels to develop modular scales, pattern boards and story poles to regulate construction dimensions by a system of stepping out from abstract models. My interest was how was the building before me designed and constructed? So over a few years, I did the graphic modeling and stepping and grew to understand the older process. However, Pat's question is more about uses in hands on craft. Layout of balusters in stair work, on the level or in slope, is easily managed with a divider with screw adjustment, so the starting and ending spacing modules match. Dividers are far more accurate than repeated steps taken with a framing square. Dividers can transfer measurements that can sometimes be difficult or tedious to take. Dividers can be used as transfer scribes for irregular shaped objects. Carefully set dividers are effective math calculators or verifiers. With gently used dividers the stepping process does not produce tic marks that visually clutter a work piece. With dividers one can interpolate + and - modifications off a reference scale. Marks are pin point and not thick as in pen or pencil marks.

The major short coming of the Crucible dividers in my mind is not price but design, as in it lacks a fine spring loaded screw adjustment that will easily regulate spread of the points and locks down the points. Starrett dividers can exceed Crucible in price also variety also lower prices on many models. So with Starrett, you could fulfill specific need. CS Osborne dividers depending on source are a good value for traditional shop standard type dividers that once upon a time had many American toolmakers producing similar models.

[Stanley Covington]

So much discussion about a simple but seldom used tool. What exactly are you guys doing that would require such an expensive solution?

Seldom used?

I don't know what kind of woodworking you do Pat, but the measuring tool in my toolchest I use least is the measuring tape. The most often used is my Starrett and other dividers. Yes, measuring, not just layout tools. Accurate, reliable and irreplaceable.

Stan

[Todd Stock]

So much discussion about a simple but seldom used tool. What exactly are you guys doing that would require such an expensive solution?

Not sure if already mentioned, but Walker and Tolpin's 'By Hand and Eye' pulls together quite a bit of lore WRT use of the divider in layout work and descriptive geometry. Granted that much of the content is covered elsewhere in older woodworking, building, and related art and craft texts, consolidation of the layout tips and tricks into a single volume is pretty handy. If curious as to why some here use dividers on a more frequent basis than what you see in your own shop, it's a good place to start.

[Pat Barry]

Seldom used?

I don't know what kind of woodworking you do Pat, but the measuring tool in my toolchest I use least is the measuring tape. The most often used is my Starrett and other dividers. Yes, measuring, not just layout tools. Accurate, reliable and irreplaceable.

Stan

I use tape measures and rulers. I can see the purpose of a divider of course, it's perfect for certain tasks, but I stand by my statement of seldom used. What exactly do you use your divider for Stanley? I'll give you dovetail spacing as a given. You take it from there.

[Stanley Covington]

I use tape measures and rulers. I can see the purpose of a divider of course, it's perfect for certain tasks, but I stand by my statement of seldom used. What exactly do you use your divider for Stanley? I'll give you dovetail spacing as a given. You take it from there.

If I need to layout a tenon or mortise, I can measure the width, split the difference with a divider, and layout centered on a line marked on tenon or mortise or both. Quicker and more accurate than fiddling with marking gauges.

When laying out mortises/tenons on stile and rails, a divider set to the desired height of mortise/tenon will ensure every mortise is laid out exactly. When doing multiple doors, windows, or shoji, the divider can be used to mark the story sticks (vertical and horizontal) used to layout each rail/stile.

When making shoji with complicated kumiko, the precision and repeatability of a lockable divider with a fine screw adjustment is essential. Simple can't be done with a measuring tape.

A divider used properly makes it easy to check for and eliminate accumulated errors. Nothing can do this as well as a good locking divider with a fine screw adjustment.

When laying out legs and backs for chairs, a divider makes it easy to triangulate and mark centers quickly and precisely from a centerline on the seat's center.

When doing trim work, or fitting floor boards to walls or around columns, a divider with a pencil attached (like the Starrett) can be used to scribe cut lines, transfer distances, and triangulate transition points.

And of course, nothing beats a divider for precisely and quickly dividing a line/distance into equal parts.

A divider beats every other tool at laying out angles, halving angles, and locating points on a circle.

There are many other operations that a divider does best. I usually have three dividers, all with sharp points and fine screw adjustment, on my workbench whenever doing layout.

There are a good reasons why the divider, along with the square and plumb, is the most ancient of mankind's tool.

Stan

[Frederick Skelly]

Dang it Stan, you just caused me another obsession. I'll spend hours and hours figuring out how to do all of the things you just described...... :D
Fred

[But I dont need a Crucible divider to do it. :D]

[Hilton Ralphs]

Dang it Stan, you just caused me another obsession. I'll spend hours and hours figuring out how to do all of the things you just described...... :D
]

Touche! Just spent the last hour doing exactly this.

[Jim Koepke]

I use tape measures and rulers. I can see the purpose of a divider of course, it's perfect for certain tasks, but I stand by my statement of seldom used. What exactly do you use your divider for Stanley? I'll give you dovetail spacing as a given. You take it from there.

Different strokes for different folks. Most of the time my rulers and tapes do not get used on projects.

Using comparative measuring devices like dividers, gauges and story sticks makes things fit together better for me.

jtk

[Roger Nair]

In the case of carpentry, consider the tables on rafter squares. Before the advent of the modern rafter square carpenters would have to layout root proportions on a wide flat board and develop modular scales for roof slopes and brace slopes, and set dividers to the models and step off story poles. The late 19th century square provides tables and needed scales for modeling that bypasses the whole development phase of modular scales and the carpenter could directly from the framing square set dividers and trammels to the modular values listed on the square. Knowing these principles, allows the carpenter to get down to work directly without resorting to computers or pocket calculators to handle the math. Puzzling through the problems of traditional layout will give the craftsman a deeper understanding and a more efficient approach. We have all heard the measure twice cut once mantra, why not template once cut a hundred. Why monkey around with all those measurements and errors? When viewed in the complete context, older methods could lead you into a more sure and efficient production.

Sometime we get to attached to the modern gimmickry that steers us from direct thinking. Building is all about proportional thinking and dividers are the finest tool to handle the task of scaling up or down.

[Pat Barry]

If I need to layout a tenon or mortise, I can measure the width, split the difference with a divider, and layout centered on a line marked on tenon or mortise or both. Quicker and more accurate than fiddling with marking gauges.

When laying out mortises/tenons on stile and rails, a divider set to the desired height of mortise/tenon will ensure every mortise is laid out exactly. When doing multiple doors, windows, or shoji, the divider can be used to mark the story sticks (vertical and horizontal) used to layout each rail/stile.

When making shoji with complicated kumiko, the precision and repeatability of a lockable divider with a fine screw adjustment is essential. Simple can't be done with a measuring tape.

A divider used properly makes it easy to check for and eliminate accumulated errors. Nothing can do this as well as a good locking divider with a fine screw adjustment.

When laying out legs and backs for chairs, a divider makes it easy to triangulate and mark centers quickly and precisely from a centerline on the seat's center.

When doing trim work, or fitting floor boards to walls or around columns, a divider with a pencil attached (like the Starrett) can be used to scribe cut lines, transfer distances, and triangulate transition points.

And of course, nothing beats a divider for precisely and quickly dividing a line/distance into equal parts.

A divider beats every other tool at laying out angles, halving angles, and locating points on a circle.

There are many other operations that a divider does best. I usually have three dividers, all with sharp points and fine screw adjustment, on my workbench whenever doing layout.

There are a good reasons why the divider, along with the square and plumb, is the most ancient of mankind's tool.

Stan

That's a good list with some excellent examples Stan. Many of those same tasks can be done with marking gages as well as simple measurements. The divider, much like Jims story sticks do reduce the possibility of error for repetitive dimensions. I don't normally think of a divider as a compass though, since scratching layout marks is more destructive than a pencil mark. Dividing a 76 inch long dimen's ion into equal lengths though, I would certainly use a bit of math rather than guess and check with a divider. You could of course do the math and set the divider to the require length and then step off the spacings.
Thanks Stan

[Mel Fulks]

Good work,Roger! It's like 'when I was a child ...I used them for snowmen, but when I became a man ...I used them for louvers". A pair of old dividers always evokes design planning. Had a dear friend who had done a lot study on Christopher Wren. He said he even used them at job sites.

[Simon MacGowen]

Different strokes for different folks.
jtk[/QUOTE]

+1.

Tage Frid relied on measuring tapes; Alan Peters used dividers (dovetails) and Sam Maloof went with chalk and rulers.

One is better than the other, depending on when or what it is used for.

Simon

[Stanley Covington]

Trammel heads.

[James Pallas]

Trammel heads.
Wonderous things that solve many measurement issues.
Jim

[Tom Stenzel]

That's why I hang out with the neanders, learn how to better use the tools I have. Personally I haven't often used dividers much, mostly to transfer measurements kinda like a precise story stick.

Part of the symbol for the Freemasons is a set of dividers. I doubt that was for looks.

-Tom
(not a Freemason)

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]

Part of the symbol for the Freemasons is a set of dividers. I doubt that was for looks.

-Tom
(not a Freemason)

They may have been the first to understand before they could be uniters of stone they would first need dividers. :eek:

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

They may have been the first to understand before they could be uniters of stone they would first need dividers. :eek:

jtk

I once did a hotel project in Istanbul many moons ago which incorporated the ruins of an ancient palace into a modern hotel. At the time, it was a Hyatt, but now its called the Çırağan Palace Kempinksi. I was privileged to watch craftsman working over a year to restore the damaged stone facade, columns, and corbels by hand. They even made bathtubs on the jobsite from solid blocks of marble. The only modern tools they used were handheld circular saws, grinders, and sanders. There was a blacksmith with a portable forge working on the jobsite several days a week reforging/sharpening stone chisels and points for the masons. They used their chisels until they were just nubs.

It's fascinating to watch craftsmen produce architectural stonework neanderthal fashion. While they may have used scaled drawings when planning arches, corbels, columns and arrow slits in ancient times, every assembly, with every stone in the assembly, is drawn full-scale on a wooden floor in a shed at the jobsite using, you guessed it, dry lines, chalk lines, straight-edges, squares (often very large triangulated wooden squares), compasses, dividers, and trammels. No protractors. No slide rulers. No graduated rulers. No tape measures

In fact, scaled drawings are said to have been invented by Filippo Brunelleschi when he was designing and constructing the Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore (Il Duomo) in Firenze, Italy beginning in 1296, the largest dome in the world for centuries. Historians say that prior to Brunelleschi, there was no such thing as architectural or engineering drawings anywhere in the world. No, Leonardo Di Vinci did excellent sketches and drawings, but not scaled orthographic drawings.

From this full-scale drawing on a wooden floor, stone masons fabricated parchment or leather patterns to simulate curved surfaces, and wooden patterns for layout and to check dimensions while cutting with hammer and chisel.

Stone masons were the most educated of the construction trades, were always in high demand for castle and cathedral construction, were often well-off financially, and were one of the few trades permitted to travel freely from jobsite to jobsite and from country to country.

But remember that standard weights and measures are a very recent invention. Prior to that, each area and each Lord insisted on using a different length for mile, foot, cubit and inch (hence the term "Ruler"), and used different divisions of each, so measuring using a graduated ruler or measuring chain was risky. Those old boys may not have know much algebra, but they knew how to measure and solve difficult trig problems with strings, dividers, squares and straight-edges better than almost anybody.

We could do worse than to learn from their example.

[Frederick Skelly]

Great story Stan. Got any pics to share?

[Stanley Covington]

Great story Stan. Got any pics to share?

Not really. This was before digital photography, and my chemical photos are all in storage in the States. But here is a website for the hotel.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87%C4%B1ra%C4%9Fan_Palace

[Frederick Skelly]

Man, that's some kinda hotel!

[David Eisenhauer]

I read a novel named "Pillars of the Earth" (I think it was named that) by Ken Follet several years ago that featured a stone mason/builder as the main character and that story referred to the better stone masons as being the main drivers of a large project during the English medievel period. As I recall, there was an amount of description of the main techniques and design thinking of the day included in the prose.

[Gary Cunningham]

I read a novel named "Pillars of the Earth" (I think it was named that) by Ken Follet several years ago that featured a stone mason/builder as the main character and that story referred to the better stone masons as being the main drivers of a large project during the English medievel period. As I recall, there was an amount of description of the main techniques and design thinking of the day included in the prose.


Jack Sharejack was either the mason, or the mason's father. I do remember the Priest was named Waylerian Bygod, or some spelling variation.

[Stanley Covington]

Man, that's some kinda hotel!

Yes, its an impressive hotel in a prime location overlooking the Bosphorus Straits.

I was just a young Project Engineer back then, fresh out of grad school. My employer was both contractor and investor. Lost plenty of money, but then, new hotel projects always do. The third owner of a hotel, after two actual, or near, bankruptcies, usually is the first one to make an actual profit on a high-grade, name-brand hotel.

The stonework in Istanbul is amazing. The crusaders brought home a lot that city's architectural stonework details and incorporated them into castles and cathedrals throughout Europe, where they can still be seen. If you get a chance, you should visit Istanbul before it slides too far back into medieval ways.

[Frederick Skelly]

If you get a chance, you should visit Istanbul before it slides too far back into medieval ways.

It's definitely on my list!

[Patrick Chase]

Y
I was just a young Project Engineer back then, fresh out of grad school.

Hah, I knew that deep down you were One Of Us (tm).

[Edwin Santos]

If I need to layout a tenon or mortise, I can measure the width, split the difference with a divider, and layout centered on a line marked on tenon or mortise or both. Quicker and more accurate than fiddling with marking gauges.

When laying out mortises/tenons on stile and rails, a divider set to the desired height of mortise/tenon will ensure every mortise is laid out exactly. When doing multiple doors, windows, or shoji, the divider can be used to mark the story sticks (vertical and horizontal) used to layout each rail/stile.

When making shoji with complicated kumiko, the precision and repeatability of a lockable divider with a fine screw adjustment is essential. Simple can't be done with a measuring tape.

A divider used properly makes it easy to check for and eliminate accumulated errors. Nothing can do this as well as a good locking divider with a fine screw adjustment.

When laying out legs and backs for chairs, a divider makes it easy to triangulate and mark centers quickly and precisely from a centerline on the seat's center.

When doing trim work, or fitting floor boards to walls or around columns, a divider with a pencil attached (like the Starrett) can be used to scribe cut lines, transfer distances, and triangulate transition points.

And of course, nothing beats a divider for precisely and quickly dividing a line/distance into equal parts.

A divider beats every other tool at laying out angles, halving angles, and locating points on a circle.

There are many other operations that a divider does best. I usually have three dividers, all with sharp points and fine screw adjustment, on my workbench whenever doing layout.

There are a good reasons why the divider, along with the square and plumb, is the most ancient of mankind's tool.

Stan

Thank you. I'm a big fan of non- tape measure, non-ruler layout, and sometimes it's easy to forget and fall back into old ways. That's why posts like yours are a good reminder. When I work with dividers and story sticks, the errors seem to all but disappear and woodworking becomes much more enjoyable.

I'm decent at math, but still, it can be very difficult to accurately divide up a case for equally spaced compartments, drawers maybe, using a tape measure or ruler. Maybe your compartment partitions are 15/32 and the outside case is 3/4 material 31" high, and you need six equally spaced compartments. I can't seem to perform a layout like that accurately with an imperial tape measure nearly as quickly as using dividers with no math required.

They can make installing pulls and cabinet hardware very easy. Especially when you're dealing with a metric on center dimension drawer pull and your tape measure is imperial.

Learning to use actively use dividers and work off centerlines was a game changer for me. Good discussion,

[Dave Anderson NH]

Don't forget boat building Stan. In the days before CAD, boats and ships were laid out with pigs, wooden curved battens, chalk, and dividers in a lofting shed or in the loft. I was privileged to walk up the dozens of stairs in one of the buildings to the lofting attic at the Redmond shipyard in South Shields (Newcastle UK) quite a number of years ago. Chalked curves were still laid out on wooden floor. The curves were transferred to paper patterns and the used to cut the steel. The trick was transferring shapes from the half hull model to the lofted full size chalk profile.

[Pat Barry]

I'm decent at math, but still, it can be very difficult to accurately divide up a case for equally spaced compartments, drawers maybe, using a tape measure or ruler. Maybe your compartment partitions are 15/32 and the outside case is 3/4 material 31" high, and you need six equally spaced compartments. I can't seem to perform a layout like that accurately with an imperial tape measure nearly as quickly as using dividers with no math required.

Hi Edwin, I must be missing out on how you would accomplish this quickly with a set of dividers. It seems like a lot of guess and check and reguess and recheck, etc, spiraling ever closer to the correct answer. This seems like it would take quite some time. I'd like to learn a better way. Can you walk me through your method to accomplish what you outlined as the problem above?

[Rob Luter]

I guess I'm a bit late to this party.....

Nice looking dividers and I'll bet they work very well. I wonder if Crucible is going after the same market as Bridge City? As nice as they look, I have several sets already from my days as a draftsman, and a few more from rust hunts. Between these and multiple compasses, I'm good to go.

[Edwin Santos]

Hi Edwin, I must be missing out on how you would accomplish this quickly with a set of dividers. It seems like a lot of guess and check and reguess and recheck, etc, spiraling ever closer to the correct answer. This seems like it would take quite some time. I'd like to learn a better way. Can you walk me through your method to accomplish what you outlined as the problem above?

Hi Pat,
Here's how I would do it: First, I'd cut a story stick in length exactly the height of my case, in this example 31" but in a moment you'll see it can be anything. If the case exists, then I would make the stick with no measuring by holding the stick up to the case, marking the line and cutting. Then take a piece of the 3/4" material from the outside case and holding it, mark off that thickness at each end of the stick. This now gives us the interior space of the carcase between the two lines we just marked.

I would then take my dividers and open them up to a rough estimate of one sixth of the case by eye. Very rough. Now walk the dividers in between the two lines you made, adjust, do it again until six steps lands you precisely on the line at the other end of the stick. Yes, this is trial and error, but you shouldn't have to do more than two or three iterations, because when you adjust the dividers bigger or smaller a tiny bit it makes a big difference because the change accumulates sixfold, once for each step. Now our dividers are representing exactly 1/6 of the interior case center line to center line. Walk them one last time, pushing in the point at each step to mark the division lines, and then come back with your pencil to mark them. This entire process shouldn't take more than about 10 minutes honestly.
So what if we want to subtract out the interior partitions and illustrate the sub spaces inside the case? In the example, I said the interior partitions were 15/32" material. Take a scrap piece of that material and adjust/set the dividers to half the thickness using the walking method. Then place the dividers on each partition center line and walk once above and below that line to then mark the partition thickness. Now your story stick is a complete vertical representation of the case showing the top, bottom, each partition, and each space in between all of which which should be identical. Transfer all measurements from this stick in the course of building your piece including the drawers (height and width at least), and then label and keep it if you ever intend to build the item again. In this process you have not needed nor reached for a tape measure or ruler.

I hope this makes sense. It's one of those things that's easier to show than explain in words. Often I end up tacking a temporary hook to the end of a horizontal story stick and using it for setting up crosscutting stop blocks on the table saw sled. This is how I was taught, and if there's a better way than the method I've described, please someone let me know.

If the eye method of getting in the ballpark with the dividers sounds too rough, there are two other methods that give you a starting point that will be very close, I can share if interested.
Edwin

[Jim Koepke]

This entire process shouldn't take more than about 10 minutes honestly.

It would surprise me if it takes much more than a minute.

For me it goes faster than getting out the tape measure and doing the math. It is also less prone to error. My errors have diminished greatly since switching to dividers and story stick from using a tape measure.

jtk

[James Waldron]

Hi Edwin, I must be missing out on how you would accomplish this quickly with a set of dividers. It seems like a lot of guess and check and reguess and recheck, etc, spiraling ever closer to the correct answer. This seems like it would take quite some time. I'd like to learn a better way. Can you walk me through your method to accomplish what you outlined as the problem above?

You really need to take a look at the By Hand and Eye book. All is explained. And it's a lot easier and a lot more exact that you think.

[James Waldron]

Hi Pat,
Here's how I would do it: First, I'd cut a story stick in length exactly the height of my case, in this example 31" but in a moment you'll see it can be anything. If the case exists, then I would make the stick with no measuring by holding the stick up to the case, marking the line and cutting. Then take a piece of the 3/4" material from the outside case and holding it, mark off that thickness at each end of the stick. This now gives us the interior space of the carcase between the two lines we just marked.

I would then take my dividers and open them up to a rough estimate of one sixth of the case by eye. Very rough. Now walk the dividers in between the two lines you made, adjust, do it again until six steps lands you precisely on the line at the other end of the stick. Yes, this is trial and error, but you shouldn't have to do more than two or three iterations, because when you adjust the dividers bigger or smaller a tiny bit it makes a big difference because the change accumulates sixfold, once for each step. Now our dividers are representing exactly 1/6 of the interior case center line to center line. Walk them one last time, pushing in the point at each step to mark the division lines, and then come back with your pencil to mark them. This entire process shouldn't take more than about 10 minutes honestly.
So what if we want to subtract out the interior partitions and illustrate the sub spaces inside the case? In the example, I said the interior partitions were 15/32" material. Take a scrap piece of that material and adjust/set the dividers to half the thickness using the walking method. Then place the dividers on each partition center line and walk once above and below that line to then mark the partition thickness. Now your story stick is a complete vertical representation of the case showing the top, bottom, each partition, and each space in between all of which which should be identical. Transfer all measurements from this stick in the course of building your piece including the drawers (height and width at least), and then label and keep it if you ever intend to build the item again. In this process you have not needed nor reached for a tape measure or ruler.

I hope this makes sense. It's one of those things that's easier to show than explain in words. Often I end up tacking a temporary hook to the end of a horizontal story stick and using it for setting up crosscutting stop blocks on the table saw sled. This is how I was taught, and if there's a better way than the method I've described, please someone let me know.

If the eye method of getting in the ballpark with the dividers sounds too rough, there are two other methods that give you a starting point that will be very close, I can share if interested.
Edwin

That's making your point the hard (and slow) way. Line off your opening, as you said. Walk off the number of divisions you want with a guesstimate of the proper length. When it comes out over or under, divide (by eyeball) the "overage" or "underage" into the same number of equal divisions you're looking for (six, in your example). Then, set your dividers to the original interval plus (or minus in the case of "underage") one sixth of the "overage" amount and you should be virtually dead on. Quick as a bunny and the only source of error is your sloppiness in execution. If it's off by much, you can repeat the process from the new dimensions and be a bit more careful and you're there. Not ten minutes at all. More like two or three if you're careful and accurate the first time through and come out with a good result the first time.

[Edwin Santos]

Well I was only trying to answer his question. Sorry if I belabored it.

[bridger berdel]

Hi Pat, .
So what if we want to subtract out the interior partitions and illustrate the sub spaces inside the case? In the example, I said the interior partitions were 15/32" material. Take a scrap piece of that material and adjust/set the dividers to half the thickness using the walking method. Then place the dividers on each partition center line and walk once above and below that line to then mark the partition thickness. Now your story stick is a complete vertical representation of the case showing the top, bottom, each partition, and each space in between all of which which should be identical.
Edwin

Won't the top and bottom space be larger than the intervening ones by the amount of your divider?

[Patrick Chase]

Won't the top and bottom space be larger than the intervening ones by the amount of your divider?

Indeed they will. This is what we software types refer to as a "fencepost error (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error#Fencepost_error)". It happens more often than anybody likes to admit :-)

[Roger Nair]

I would approach the above problem this way: If the height is 31 then on a stick say 36, I would come in from the end a couple inches and strike a line and mark TOP on the portion beyond the mark. Then measure 31 and strike then mark BOT on the wild end. Gauge a line end to end on the story stick, it is in that line where the stepping takes place. Assuming shelves, top and bottom panels are equal thickness, gauge the top and bottom panels and strike marks. Now use the dividers to step out even margin from top of top panel to top of bottom panel. Here is where I think the Crucible Divider is at the disadvantage since it lacks a screw feed spreading mechanism, with a spring loaded screw hair width accuracy is under control. Once the upper surfaces have been gauged and marked, layout the undersides stepping from bottom of the bottom panel to the bottom of the top panel with the dividers unchanged. Everything should work out evenly without odd remainders or centering problems.

[Frederick Skelly]

Indeed they will. This is what we software types refer to as a "fencepost error (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error#Fencepost_error)". It happens more often than anybody likes to admit :-)

Man, I've done that more than once. :o :o :o Didn't know it was common, nor that it was a mathematical oddity studied by some big brained Roman scholar. I just figured I was a dope [don't say it!], erased the lines and started over.

Interesting factoid Patrick. How the devil do you find - and remember - this stuff, anyway? :)

[Pat Barry]

Hi Pat,
Here's how I would do it: First, I'd cut a story stick in length exactly the height of my case, in this example 31" but in a moment you'll see it can be anything. If the case exists, then I would make the stick with no measuring by holding the stick up to the case, marking the line and cutting. Then take a piece of the 3/4" material from the outside case and holding it, mark off that thickness at each end of the stick. This now gives us the interior space of the carcase between the two lines we just marked.

I would then take my dividers and open them up to a rough estimate of one sixth of the case by eye. Very rough. Now walk the dividers in between the two lines you made, adjust, do it again until six steps lands you precisely on the line at the other end of the stick. Yes, this is trial and error, but you shouldn't have to do more than two or three iterations, because when you adjust the dividers bigger or smaller a tiny bit it makes a big difference because the change accumulates sixfold, once for each step. Now our dividers are representing exactly 1/6 of the interior case center line to center line. Walk them one last time, pushing in the point at each step to mark the division lines, and then come back with your pencil to mark them. This entire process shouldn't take more than about 10 minutes honestly.
So what if we want to subtract out the interior partitions and illustrate the sub spaces inside the case? In the example, I said the interior partitions were 15/32" material. Take a scrap piece of that material and adjust/set the dividers to half the thickness using the walking method. Then place the dividers on each partition center line and walk once above and below that line to then mark the partition thickness. Now your story stick is a complete vertical representation of the case showing the top, bottom, each partition, and each space in between all of which which should be identical. Transfer all measurements from this stick in the course of building your piece including the drawers (height and width at least), and then label and keep it if you ever intend to build the item again. In this process you have not needed nor reached for a tape measure or ruler.

I hope this makes sense. It's one of those things that's easier to show than explain in words. Often I end up tacking a temporary hook to the end of a horizontal story stick and using it for setting up crosscutting stop blocks on the table saw sled. This is how I was taught, and if there's a better way than the method I've described, please someone let me know.

If the eye method of getting in the ballpark with the dividers sounds too rough, there are two other methods that give you a starting point that will be very close, I can share if interested.
Edwin
Thanks Edwin. This is pretty much what I expected and how I would do it also. I guess I'm stuck in the age of calculators and rulers though. Whatever works for you I guess.

[Pat Barry]

You really need to take a look at the By Hand and Eye book. All is explained. And it's a lot easier and a lot more exact that you think.
Yes - Edwin explained it just about like I imagined it. If I were stuck without a tape measure I'd probably do it the same way.

[Pat Barry]

Indeed they will. This is what we software types refer to as a "fencepost error (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error#Fencepost_error)". It happens more often than anybody likes to admit :-)
Ah, once again you are correct Patrick (and bridger of course). That throws a bit of a problem into the method. The centerlines for the drawer dividers will be equidistant but the openings for the drawers won't be the same size top and bottom versus the ones in the center.

[Roger Nair]

Pat Barry, read my post #96, it presents a solution to the post problem.

[Stanley Covington]

Here is a link to a name-brand example. There are cheaper versions of the first that work very well.

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/calipers-dividers-trammels/calipers-dividers/73B-6 (https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-277-6-Toolmakers-Spring-Type-Divider/dp/B0002FS1JA/ref=pd_sim_328_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0002FS1JA&pd_rd_r=684ZRBFS6V36V35CEXNZ&pd_rd_w=lpFiB&pd_rd_wg=7bvtV&psc=1&refRID=684ZRBFS6V36V35CEXNZ)

The quick-spring nut feature speeds adjustment up.

The Starrett 92 pictured below is my favorite because it is an impressive tool and also works as a compass, but I admit it is not quite as rigid as the first version.

https://www.qy1.de/img/st306468.jpg
Stan

[Edwin Santos]

Indeed they will. This is what we software types refer to as a "fencepost error (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error#Fencepost_error)". It happens more often than anybody likes to admit :-)


Won't the top and bottom space be larger than the intervening ones by the amount of your divider?

Your are correct on this oversight sirs. Roger's method above corrects for the "fencepost error".

[Mike Brady]

Stanley, that is indeed a great dividers/ compass combination from Starrett. They are not really any cheaper than the Crucible ones, but the utility is better. Last year at the Brimfield flea market in central Mass., I found the identical vintage Stanley version of the above dividers/compass for about $40.00, so that was my "find" for the summer. I leave that tool in the compass configuration, as it is not quite as easily handled as dedicated dividers.

[Patrick Chase]

Man, I've done that more than once. :o :o :o Didn't know it was common, nor that it was a mathematical oddity studied by some big brained Roman scholar. I just figured I was a dope [don't say it!], erased the lines and started over.

Interesting factoid Patrick. How the devil do you find - and remember - this stuff, anyway? :)

I think I read it in a software journal or something like that. I remember knowing about it when one of my fencepost bugs screwed up a finite element simulation for laser media in the mid 80s (my Dad allowed me to choose between helping with his simulation or digging ditches for the sprinkler system during the summer), so it's been at least that long. I have no idea why my neurons retain that and not useful stuff.

Also I've interviewed a lot of software candidates, and one of my favorite questions while at a previous employer was a bit of a "fencepost trap", i.e. it tricked the candidate into making that mistake unless they were really careful.