Do I need a new grinder or a new bowl gouge?

[Adam Herd]

just bought an hurricane 1/2" bowl gouge from Amazon it had 4.5 stars. I also bought the wolverine one way sharpening system with the vari grind attachment. When trying to sharpen my bowl gouge on my 6" skil bench grinder with an 80 grit stone it immediately blued the gouge. I was very frustrated and I tried using water and motor oil to keep the gouge from blueing but neither worked. So then I said screw it I will grind the gouge at a 90 degree angle past the blue part and then re-grind the correct angle but when grinding it at even a 90 degree angle the gouge is smoking and just continues to blue. Therefore I cant just start over with it. The gouge was about $33 and I don't have a lot of money right now to be buying new gouges and grinders. The grinder I have is not a slow speed grinder. I was going to try a finer grit but I can not find grinder wheels in the stores near me. I use a craftsman 1" belt sander for my other turning tools as it has an adjustable platform. But I cant use the wolverine system with the belt sander

Thanks

Adam

[Steve Nix]

Don't worry about the bluing. The heat won't effect HSS.. just keep makin shavings.

[Adam Herd]

I am beginning to wonder if the tool is not HSS then because it leave a horrible edge with knicks all along it. How ever it is fairly sharp but I have to sharpen it every 10 minutes or so because it won't hold an edge. I will post pictures when I get home.

[Matt Schrum]

Depending what wood you are turning (some woods are high in silica content or are just great at dulling tools), remember that 10 minutes on a 8" diameter bowl (so ~24" perimeter) at 1000 RPM for 10 minutes is 20,000 feet of wood, or about 4 miles of cutting. That may very well be enough to warrant a quick touch up on the grinder.

I have a number of Hurricane tools and enjoy using them. I haven't fired up the lathe in a bit, so I don't recall how often I sharpen them, but for some woods, every 10 minutes doesn't sound too crazy. I take a dry erase marker (or Sharpie) to the edge of the gouge, then very gently sharpen the edge on my 120 grit wheel. By looking at how much of the black marker on the gouge is left or removed, I can make sure I am sharpening up to the cutting edge without removing more than necessary. Once you have the gouge in a shape/profile you like, only very light grinding is needed to keep it sharp.

[Wade Lippman]

I never got the knack of sharpening gouges with the wolverine. I ground off way too much material before I got it right.

I had a worksharp 3000 I never used; so I mounted it sideways and put the wolverine on it. I do a much better job with it than I ever did on the grinding wheel.
I don't see why you can't do the same with a belt sander. Maybe not, but it is worth a try.

[Adam Herd]

Right now i am turning a green piece of ash maybe 5 inched is diameter if that has anything to do with it.

[Adam Herd]

I can't use the wolverine system with my belt sander because the set up is not the same as a grinder. Under the grinder wheels is air so i can mount the wolverine system under the wheels. but under the belt on the sander is the base of the sander. My sander also is vertical and not horizontal. I may be able to figure a way to use the wolverine system with the sander but right now the wolverine system is set up with my grinder so i would prefer to use it with the grinder if I can.

[John K Jordan]

I am beginning to wonder if the tool is not HSS then because it leave a horrible edge with knicks all along it. How ever it is fairly sharp but I have to sharpen it every 10 minutes or so because it won't hold an edge. I will post pictures when I get home.

Adam,

To see if the tool is hardened, whether HSS or carbon steel, try filing a groove in it near the working end with the corner of a file. If you can easily file a groove/scratch the tool is not hardened and can't really be used like a hardened tool. If it is not HSS, enough heat to turn it blue will remove the hardness. If not hardened properly in the first place, there's not much you can easily do except return it for a new one.

I have a box full of cheap tools I collect to give to beginners and other who need them. I tested a bunch of them one day and found several that were not hardened at all. A few others were hardened for an inch or so at the tip but not hardened the rest of the way. Proper hardening is one thing your run into with cheap tools.

When you can swing it, try buying a Thompson bowl gouge. These are top quality, extremely good steel, stay sharp for a long time unless you are cutting concrete. A 1/2" gouge will cost about $65.

Note that a finer grinding wheel might actually make the tool hotter than a coarse wheel. When possible, try a CBN wheel instead. A 1/2 speed grinder is desirable for another reason - it doesn't grind away steel as fast so it might be a little easier to sharpen with.

I don't see if you mentioned where you live. If you happen to live in East TN, come by and I can check your gouge, sharpen on a CBN wheel and test, and perhaps loan or give you a gouge that will get you going for now.

JKJ

[Chris A Lawrence]

How hard are you pressing the gouge into the wheel? You should be using light pressure just enough to keep the gouge from skipping on the wheel. I would look for a finer wheel I use a 120 grit wheel with good results.

[Roger Chandler]

If your grinder has those grey stone wheels, and runs at 3650 rpm, that is a combination almost guaranteed to blue any turning tool. It will require a VERY light touch, but a slow speed grinder [1725 rpm] is best and 8" wheel, of white aluminum oxide, or even better, the pink or blue Norton wheels. Best case scenario is CBN wheels.

[Adam Herd]

I will answer the last three replies in this message:

how hard am I pressing the gouge: I am not pressing the gouge into the wheel at all just keeping gouge on the wheel.

what kind of wheel am I using: the wheel I am using is a grey stone wheel but i believe it said it was an aluminum oxide wheel

Hardness test: I will definitely try that hardness test you suggested tomorrow. I am hoping for an easy fix though as I have already spent more money than I intended to getting into bowls between the chuck, sharpening system, and the bowl gouge and now having the problem with not being able to sharpen it. However I live in Central New York and unfortunately visiting you in East Tennessee would be a bit out of the way for me. I do wish I could because it would be nice to have some one physically examine all of these elements.

I appreciate everyones help solving this issue its been very frustrating for me.

[David Delo]

You might want to look up your nearest AAW chapter and find someone that's close to you that could help you with the wolverine system. I'm certain someone would volunteer.

[John K Jordan]

how hard am I pressing the gouge: I am not pressing the gouge into the wheel at all just keeping gouge on the wheel.


Re-reading Raffan tonight he suggests holding the gouge so lightly against the stone that the you should be able to touch the shaft with your bare fingers 3/4" back from the tip without it being too hot to hold. Make sure the stone is well-dressed. 80 grit should be fine for a bowl gouge.

Perhaps you can find a turning club near you. Someone would be happy to check your tools and review your sharpening technique.

JKJ

[Glenn C Roberts]

Adam, if you are near Syracuse, you may wish to look up the club there. Ton of good people with a ton of good answers. They love to help new kids.

[robert baccus]

The old grey wheels are very bad to load up on steel. Try cleaning it with a carbide bar made for that. Also good HSS is hard to blue at reasonable use but a slick grey wheel might do it. The newer grade wheels mentioned will self clean to sharp grains without loading.

[Adam Herd]

366647366649366650366648
The first 2 pictures show where my gouge is currently at the Skil wheel is the first wheel I tried it says it is an aluminum oxide wheel. The Kobalt wheel is the second wheel I tried. I thought the kobalt wheel was aluminum oxide but I don't see it saying aluminum oxide on it. Are the wheels I am using crap? I looked up the norton wheels and they are very expensive.

[Roger Chandler]

366647366649366650366648
Are the wheels I am using crap? I looked up the norton wheels and they are very expensive.

Good turning tools are pretty expensive also........you would be better off getting blue Norton 3x wheels [k grade] or CBN wheels and know that you are not taking temper out of your tools. I have seen high speed steel get the temper taken out.....some may disagree with that statement, but when I started turning, I used my high speed 6" grinder and grey wheels.........did not take me long to figure out I was grinding away tool steel way too much because the tool would no longer hold an edge like it did when it was new. I encourage you to get an 8" slow speed grinder and good wheels.......it hurts only when you first purchase, but it will save you money and give you better results in the long term.

[Adam Herd]

I was thinking about maybe picking up the Delta 6" variable speed grinder that lowes has it says it will go as slow as 2,000 rpm but I can't find grinder wheels that are 6" in diameter 1/2" arbor and 3/4" thick. Would the Delta 8" grinder work well? it has 8" wheels 1/2" arbor and 1" thick wheels. The problem is the grinder is $120 which is a lot of money for me right now.

[Don Orr]

OK, first of all, none of what you have is crap. It may not be the top of the line but certainly functional to learn with. There is nothing wrong with the gray aluminum oxide wheels you have. They do need to be clean and true though. JKJ has some excellent advice about hardness. You just need to learn about using these tools together to get good results. Check out the videos from OneWay in the link. I should help get you going in the right direction.
https://oneway.ca/tutorials%20grinding%20jig
If you continue to have trouble come on back for more help.

[Roger Chandler]

I was thinking about maybe picking up the Delta 6" variable speed grinder that lowes has it says it will go as slow as 2,000 rpm but I can't find grinder wheels that are 6" in diameter 1/2" arbor and 3/4" thick. Would the Delta 8" grinder work well? it has 8" wheels 1/2" arbor and 1" thick wheels. The problem is the grinder is $120 which is a lot of money for me right now.

You can make your setup work, but you probaby need some tutoring/mentoring from an experienced turner. If you do go to the expense of a new grinder, then by all means pick a slow speed/1725 rpm unit. 8" is better than 6" because it gives a better bevel, that is not so hollow ground as a 6" wheel will give your tools. While money is tight, get hooked up with a local turning club, or one nearest to you, and it will shave light years off your learning curve! You do not say where you are located in your posts, so if you can post your location, likely someone near you might respond, or we can help you find the nearest local AAW chapter, so you can find them.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/rikon-8in-slow-speed-grinder

even better is this one

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/rikon-8-1-hp-slow-speed-grinder-80-808

[Harold Balzonia]

Don is correct in that none of what you have is "crap" and it's all satisfactory equipment. However, you have made yourself a bigger mountain to climb than if you had "better" equipment.

In the big picture, I think there is a lot to be gained by learning how to make what equipment you have work for you. The practice of repeated tinkering and problem solving will serve you very well in the future and make you a better turner and craftsman than if you just dropped $400 on a grinder, wolverine jig, and cbn wheels. Just my opinion....

There is great value in working through with what you have, but it will cost you some steel off your tools. And lots of time.... You will have to decide what's worth it to you. Most people prefer to "plug and play" or "paint by numbers" when it's just a hobby, but always remember it's possible to create some amazing things with rudimentary tools.

For me, (and I'm in the minority, for sure) a huge part of the enjoyment of turning is in the problem solving. I enjoy the challenges and roadblocks and finding ways around them. If I was a production turner, I would not have this luxury. You can almost always buy your way out of a problem with a new piece of equipment/tool, but it's not necessary.

If you're interested, there is a Rikon 8" grinder on sale at woodcraft for $99 right now. It comes with two white norton-style wheels (60 grit and 120 grit). If you have a store near you, it could be worth a trip.

[John K Jordan]

For me, (and I'm in the minority, for sure) a huge part of the enjoyment of turning is in the problem solving. I enjoy the challenges and roadblocks and finding ways around them. If I was a production turner, I would not have this luxury. You can almost always buy your way out of a problem with a new piece of equipment/tool, but it's not necessary.


Hey, you are not in the minority in the circle of turners I like to hang out with and whom I respect the most! Some of these guys are amazing. And even with a shop full of first class tools there is ALWAYS that problem that no magic bullet in the kit will solve. Well said.

JKJ

[Adam Herd]

So I have ready everyones posts since my last post. I watched the videos on the one way system. Starting to believe all I need is some guidance and practice and that my tools are fine like a few of you have said. I went out to the garage and back to the grinder and worked on grinding my tool and trying to get the shape right. after doing so. I tried turing this small, green, ash bowl I started turning the other day. After really focusing on the shape of the gouge on the grinder the tool did seem to cut a bit better. So I am thinking i just need to have the right shape. I have attached pictures of the current grind on my gouge. its still discolored on the tips but people have been saying that wont hurt the HSS. Pictures from left to right, first is the left side of the gouge, then the center of the gouge, then the right side of the gouge. I feel that the right side of the gouge is going more straight back like the grind on a spindle roughing gouge. where as the left edge is more slanted going down in the direction of the handle. I am assuming the left side looks more accurate because this is a bowl gouge and not a spindle roughing gouge. is the reason for the different angle on the edges because of set up or operator error? I have also attached some pictures of the bowl I have finished. The bowl is not sanded or anything because its worthless it has a crack in it and can't be saved but worked for practice. Based on how the bowl looks does it look like the gouge is working right? I definitely need more practice making bowls as this was my first. Oh and to answer someone's question I am from syracuse or central New York.
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[Roger Chandler]

It looks as if you are not grinding the wings, and have a pretty shallow grind on that gouge, more like a spindle gouge instead of a bowl gouge. Look up Doug Thompson's youtube sharpening video....he owns Thompson Lathe Tools, and that should get you on the right track.

[Adam Herd]

I watched that video and adjusted the vari grind attachment and put a new grind on my gouge. My cell phone wouldn't focus on the gouge for some reason so I had to take the picture on my laptop I hope you can see enough. Is this a better grind?
366669

[Roger Chandler]

I watched that video and adjusted the vari grind attachment and put a new grind on my gouge. My cell phone wouldn't focus on the gouge for some reason so I had to take the picture on my laptop I hope you can see enough. Is this a better grind?
366669looks a good bit better. Try to see if it cuts better for you.

[Adam Herd]

I just noticed that the bevel extends down towards the handle slightly more on the left side then on the right? why is this so and will it effect how the tool works?

[Roger Chandler]

I just noticed that the bevel extends down towards the handle slightly more on the left side then on the right? why is this so and will it effect how the tool works?You simply leaned the tool over farther on one side....it will be fine, and next time just try to sharpen both sides to the same stopping point.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Adam - the bevel is slightly longer on one side simply because it was on the grinder a fraction of a second longer than on the other side. The bevel is used as a reference - so it should not interfere with your cutting action unless it is so long as to prevent the cutting edge from engaging the wood. A lot of us grind the heel portion of the bevel away - gives us more clearance and less chance of bruising the wood.

[Thomas Canfield]

Adam - I advocate the use of 2x6 material for starting out since it can often be picked up as scrap or reasonable if you have to purchase a 8' board. The 2x6 is really only 1-1/2 x 5-1/2" but that gives you plenty of material to learn the tool control and sharpening required. Most 2x6 is either pine or spruce and fairly soft but has definite grain pattern that helps you learn about wood also. Being only 1-1/2" thick, it helps prevent you from having the steep side wall that has the greater problem and requires a different grind (bottom feeder) gouge. Believe me, you will definitely see the difference between sharp and almost sharp tools on the 2x6 lumber with end grain tearout.

[Rich Colvin]

Adam,

I use a Tormek Grinder & associated jigs. Whilst it is a pretty big up-front expense, I have found a number of things :


my tools last much longer as I remove less steel with each sharpening,
my grinds are consistently the same, so my approach to using the tool is the same (no relearning how to best present the tool to the wood), and
it is fast, so I resharpen often (rather than using a tool when it is too dull).

I've had mine 15+ years and still consider it one of my best turning expenses : in fact, it is the only tool I've not upgraded / replaced.

Rich

[Thomas Wilson80]

Adam - I advocate the use of 2x6 material for starting out since it can often be picked up as scrap or reasonable if you have to purchase a 8' board. The 2x6 is really only 1-1/2 x 5-1/2" but that gives you plenty of material to learn the tool control and sharpening required. Most 2x6 is either pine or spruce and fairly soft but has definite grain pattern that helps you learn about wood also. Being only 1-1/2" thick, it helps prevent you from having the steep side wall that has the greater problem and requires a different grind (bottom feeder) gouge. Believe me, you will definitely see the difference between sharp and almost sharp tools on the 2x6 lumber with end grain tearout.


I second this recommendation. I am new to turning and have bought a couple 8' pine boards and glued them for practice. I've turned 5 bowls so far, each only costs about $3 worth of wood and it is dry so I can take my time without significant movement. Here are a couple I recently made and finished with dark brown Watco Danish Oil: 366681

[Don Orr]

Adam, it looks like you are making major progress. The newer grind is way better than where you started and will improve as you learn more. Finding a club and/or mentor will speed up this process. Keep at it-we all started as beginners and worked our way forward. It's a lot of fun. Work with what you have. Wet, fresh cut wood is great fun to turn. I personally recommend hardwoods for practice-and you can never practice too much.

[Adam Herd]

Those bowls look phenomenal I would never have guessed they started as cheap pine boards. I think I will pick up a couple 2x6s. I have been practicing with some small ash pieces that were cut down from a friends farm. How ever they are not dry.

[Roger Chandler]

Adam, here is a link to the AAW chapter search page........there are 16 local chapters in New York. Perhaps at least one is within driving distance for you.

http://www.woodturner.org/?page=Chapters

[Mike Nathal]

I currently use 8" CBN wheels but I think that I would use a belt rather than a 6 inch grey wheel. There is a significant minority of turners who prefer belt sanders/grinders. Your first option is to buy a dedicated belt grinder, Sorby is the only one I know about. I saw a demonstration on it and it works well. Second, there is an article in the AAW magazine a few years ago about hacking a Harbor Freight machine into a tool grinder. Third, Captain Eddie has a YouTube video or two about using belts to grind tools.

[Geoff Crimmins]

371664Here's one example a grind that works well on bowl gouges.

[John K Jordan]

Woodturner John Lucas showed these pictures recently of some of his grinds for different purposes. The tools on the left are bowl gouges, the others are spindle gouges. Some sharpened by hand. As you can see, there is a lot of variation possible.

371667 371668

JKJ

[Prashun Patel]

You are making great progress. That grind should serve you just fine to begin with. Personally, I would linger longer on the wings next time you grind, but do this gradually each time you re-sharpen. Don't do it all at once. It is good learning to feel the impact as the wings sweep back a little at a time. Also, sweeping the wings can have the unintended consequence of creating a pointy nose. That can be good in some cases, and not desirable in others. But to start, take care to have a rounder nose.

I would definitely start with larger, and shallow wood. The taller your stock, the more you have to navigate with vertical walls. The smaller the stock, the more abrupt the transition is from wall to base - and the harder it is to see what you're doing. Both of these things mean possible catches.

A 2x6 is a great size to start with. Think 'shallow platter'. Bowls don't need distinct walls. To start, I would think of the inside as a continuous curve.

And to answer your question, your ash bowl seemed to cut just fine. Nicely done!

[Jon Grider]

Not to hijack but a seeking little clarification . John Jordan mentioned the Thompson bowl gouge. Just wondering John, Thompson offers a V shape and a U shape. Which do you think would be best if I were to have only one bowl gouge ? I am just an occasional turner with a few spindle tools but have an ample supply of wood that in my imagination could create some good bowls. I'm kind of looking for a gouge with a shape and size to do bowls up to 10" diameter max.

[John K Jordan]

...Thompson offers a V shape and a U shape. Which do you think would be best if I were to have only one bowl gouge ? ... I'm kind of looking for a gouge with a shape and size to do bowls up to 10" diameter max.

I see Doug Thompson makes four sizes of V and four of U gouges. I'd have to look to check but I think most of mine are V gouges. That doesn't mean much since I don't consider myself a bowl turner, although I've turned a lot of bowls, platters and such, some large, some tiny. But most of the time (when I get time to turn!) I prefer spindles and the like - things like lidded boxes, goblets, carved things, etc. And teaching - I have almost as much fun teaching as turning! (Come visit for free lessons - the first tool in the rank beginner's hand is the skew chisel!)

Is U or V best? Ask several people and I think you'll get different answers. I have no idea. That said, the V gouges do everything I ask them to. Others I know like the U. Some swear by the parabolic which I don't think Doug makes. I think the biggest difference in the V and U are how you grind it - people have commented that the V was harder to get a good curve on the swept-back wings but I never had a bit of trouble with that. I think that either, properly sharpened will let you turn anything you can imagine. I suspect it's like almost anything, either will work once you get used to it.

Turner and demonstrator John Lucas commented about the bowl gouges in his photo I showed elsewhere in this thread: "Top is a homemade U shaped gouge I ground with vertical wings. I am playing with this using it flute up and cutting with the wing. Very clean cuts with little pressure against the wall of the bowl. The next is my Thompson V 1/2" that I use for most things. Then there is a no name U shaped bowl gouge that ground this way has very long acute wings. Very handy for pull cuts to get a clean finish. Bottom is a Henry Taylor U shaped gouge with the 40/40 grind. I use it for difficult tear out wood and like to use it flute up or slightly rotated for natural edge bowls. "

I grind some gouges with a sort of Ellsworth grind and a couple with a bottom-feeder grind I learned from Chris Ramsey, the cowboy hat guy from Kentucky. One has a very long side grind that Mark StLeger uses (and a few weeks ago I watched Graeme Priddle use one very much like it for some amazing cuts in green wood.) John L. said he prefers the 1/2" V Thompson gouge. When face turning I probably use the 1/2" the most also, with the 3/8" to get into tighter coves and things. I seldom use the 5/8". I never bought a 3/4" gouge from Doug.

I suspect a 1/2" gouge will be perfect for the 10" bowls and smaller. You could send John Lucas an email and ask him I could ask him - I'll see him in about a week or I could call. Also, consider calling Doug Thompson, number on his web site. He can make a recommendation. (Doug does more tool making these days than turning but he's quite an expert - for example he used to give demos making cowboy hats.) If you buy a gouge from Doug tell him I said hello! The last time I saw him I told him I wanted the biggest honkin' skew chisel he made and went home with the 1-3/8". Tell him I said it is wonderful! (Takes a while to sharpen, though. :))

Do you have any of Doug's spindle gouges? Of all the spindle gouges I've had the 3/8" Thompson is my absolute favorite. I use the 3/8" so much I keep several, all sharpened identically. When one gets dull I set it in the "sharpen" pile and grab another. Once I set up the jig to sharpen it only takes a few minutes to sharpen all of them.

BTW, between the Thompson tools and Mike Hunter's tools I think I could turn everything I could imagine. (Doug carries round stock of the same 10V steel that make most of the little special scrapers and things I use.)

Yikes, I hope this doesn't sound like a Thompson commercial. I have no connection to Doug's business other than being a satisfied customer and having known him a long time.

JKJ

[Prashun Patel]

Jon-

I have 2 Thompson U's and 2 V's. It is said (on his website) that the V can be better for roughing green wood and the U can be better for shearing dry wood. I don't notice much difference between the two styles. For a few years, I use my 5/8" U for roughing green blanks, and my 1/2" v for finishing them when dry. The size (to me) was a bigger determinant of aggressiveness and control.

I now have a 1/2" u I'm hard pressed to notice a concrete difference between the two styles in the same size. If anything (ironically) I find the v to offer a little more control and delicacy than the u. But this could be because my 1/2" u is much longer, and has a more stout handle than my 1/2" v; that additional leverage may play a role in its aggressiveness and manipulation difficulty in tighter situations.

One caveat: I don't turn a lot of steep sided, flat bottomed bowls, which might be where a bigger difference between the styles might manifest.

I think the style, grind, and size that suits you is highly personal. I can say that you won't go wrong with either the 1/2" or 3/8" Thompsons in either v or u; mine are well made, hold an edge well, last a long time, and work well in almost all (bowl) situations.

(Boy that's a lot of words and very little advice!)

[Karl Loeblein]

Adam,

Remember all high speed grinders become slow(er) speed grinders once the power is switched off. Use momentum left in the wheel to grind at a slower speed. It's not the best solution, but something cheap you can try until you get something better.

-Karl