Does being neander change how you see things?

[Matt Lau]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not much of a woodworker.
However, I'd like to think that dabbling in neandering has helped me see the world very differently (sorta like learning to cook).

For me, it's a dislike of MDF, "floating" desks, and vaporware electronics (which is ironic, since I used to be a computer nerd).
Also, it's challenged me to get better, and better as a dentist.
I'd like my dentistry to last as long as some people's furniture!

How has being neander changed how you see things?

-Matt

[Patrick Chase]

I find that the prominent brow ridges limit my abiliity to see upwards. Also, every problem looks like a suitable application for a wooden club and/or a large rock.

Other than that, not really.

[lowell holmes]

I went through your phase, but as I age, I have nothing to prove, so I am comfortable with
using both power and hand tools.

I would never cut plywood with a hand saw and I will probably make multiple identical cuts with a chop saw.

However, I don't think I can complete a project without being able to use hand tools. I take pride in my possession
of both skills. I think it is being a complete woodworker.

I am also an old dog that doesn't have time to dilly dally.

I own three Lie Nielsen handsaws and I use them. I have 20"X 4" tenon saw that I made from a Ron Bontz kit.
The handle is curly maple that I designed and made.

[Mike Henderson]

I am also an old dog that doesn't have time to dilly dally.


I understand. I'm old enough that I quit buying green bananas.

Mike

[steven c newman]

It tends to help me keep what little skills I have working. Wake up in the mornings, to the sound of Rice Kripies..( Snap, crackle POP) as I try to walk around. Always a good day, went you can look down at the tops of the grass..( inside of up at the roots?)

Went from huge Pole barn shop full of power tools, to that little basement shop....was "forced" into the Hand Tool Realm.

[lowell holmes]

It tends to help me keep what little skills I have working. Wake up in the mornings, to the sound of Rice Kripies..( Snap, crackle POP) as I try to walk around. Always a good day, went you can look down at the tops of the grass..( inside of up at the roots?)

Went from huge Pole barn shop full of power tools, to that little basement shop....was "forced" into the Hand Tool Realm.

I walk 1 to 1 1/2 miles every morning. I do every day unless it is raining. We live on a street that is 3/8 mile, end to end of paving. I do it so I can keep on walking.
It keeps me going.

[Rick Malakoff]

Me being a carpenter for 40 sum years and knowing the tricks to ''get the job done" in a timely manner, whereas now I tell myself to slow down and do it right as there is no customer and I only have to please my self.
The most amazing part about using mainly hand tools is that there is so much more to learn and how much I didn't know!
Rick

[Nathan Johnson]

I find that the prominent brow ridges limit my abiliity to see upwards. Also, every problem looks like a suitable application for a wooden club and/or a large rock.

Other than that, not really.

This is a good post.
*tips cap*

[Doug Hepler]

How has being neander changed how you see things?

First, my disclaimer. I use whatever I think is the right tool for the job, both hand and power tools, so maybe I'm not a real Neanderthal. There is no way I am going to rip a 48" long piece of oak with a hand saw. On the other hand I'm as independent as a hog on ice so maybe that will bring me back closer to the neander camp. At least to galoot status.

When I started I mainly used power tools. Back then, my method of work was what I would call industrial. I set up the machine and let it do its thing. For example, if I wanted a 4" rip cut I measured 4" from the TS fence to the blade and let 'er rip. If I wanted to flatten a board, I ran it across my jointer. That's how the guy on TV did it.

As I started using hand tools more and more, my basic approach changed. Now I almost always mark the work pretty much as if I were going to do the operation by hand. I may cut box joints with a router, but I mark them out as if I were going to cut them by hand. Once, I set up my machinery to be "perfect" and then assumed it was. For example, I adjusted my TS miter gauge to "exactly" square and that was that. Now that I no longer have a TS I check every board for square, square it up with a shooting board, and establish a reference edge (just like Robert Wearing says I should). I don't have a jointer anymore, but I do have a thickness planer and hand planes. So I get creative with the planer, and I sweat more with the hand planes. (And yes, Patrick, they are very sharp because I don't like to sweat that much.) When you do that, you find out that 1" S4S is not necessarily 3/4" thick and not necessarily square or straight or smooth. (Who knew?) You also get careful about reading the grain direction. In other words, I have become much more engaged in the work since I started using handwork methods.

Marking the work instead of adjusting the machine, and all the rest of it, may not sound like much, but it has fundamentally changed how I work and how I think about woodworking. In the process, I have become skeptical about the tool business, a bit anti-consumerist in fact. Commercial interests, who sponsor our woodworking media, push products at us with the explicit or implicit promise that they will make us better woodworkers. Many articles convey the same message. Adopt innovation or fall behind. My favorite example is the card scraper vs the ROS. The card scraper is obscure -- practically a symbol of Neanderthal work. Hardly any commercial interest pushes it at us. On the other hand, "everybody" has, or wants, an electric sander. (There are many more examples.)

So, another change is that I tend to take people like Megan and Chris and Roy and . . . more seriously than I did before. They really do have an important message about traditional methods amid the commercial din.

I am not for a second claiming any sort of superiority, although I do mean my comments to welcome people to learn more about handwork methods. Everybody gets to make their own way and I am still on my journey. The question was, how Neanderthal methods have changed how I see things. As you can see, I think that's an important question for all of us.

All the best

Doug

[Derek Cohen]

Good post, Doug.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Patrick sees the trees and the forest.

As I sit in front of my cave of an evening, listening to the distant calls of sabertooth squirrel and woolly mamoth in the gloaming, I ponder how best to strop my stone adze, and if powered deer antler is a better polishing compound than sharkskin grass. Chert or flint, that is the driving question of our time.

[Joe Tilson]

I now see rust in a different light, It is beautiful when underneath there is the tool you've been looking for and you got it at a really good price.
After working with motorized tools and equipment in construction for many years, the lower noise levels are great.
Being able to fine tune anything you are working on.
Being able to take your time to do what's right, as you see it, not what the book says or what is SOP, necessarily. Rules are good, but sometimes new ways need to be found.
Getting close to your work and watching it come to life, so to speak.

[Mark Stutz]

Patrick sees the trees and the forest.

As I sit in front of my cave of an evening, listening to the distant calls of sabertooth squirrel and woolly mamoth in the gloaming, I ponder how best to strop my stone adze, and if powered deer antler is a better polishing compound than sharkskin grass. Chert or flint, that is the driving question of our time.

I knew this would turn into a sharpening thread sooner or later!:eek:;):D

[Jason Dean]

I started down the neander path when I realized that my desire for a large industrial planer and the electrical service that I have had available were at cross purposes. Halfway through my slab Roubo build, I am beginning to rethink as the siren song of Powermatic beckons me toward its steely grey cast iron shores.

The biggest paradigm shift for me with woodworking generally and hand tool work specifically is the concept of hiding your mistakes when they don't matter and realizing when they do. In the case of antique handmade furniture that manifests in rough surfaces with really coarse tool marks in places no one would see. I was astonished to discover these on really fine pieces.

That realization "allowed" me to let go somewhat and to increase my productivity and my own opinion of my work.

[Karl Andersson]

Disclaimer; what works for you is great - electrons are yours to burn as you see fit.

Neandering for me reflects my desire to choose the quality and cost of things in my life. I do woodworking mostly for my family and friends, not to sell/ high production, so instead of buying all the power tools available, I pick up hand tools and learn the older methods (when they exist). I can't make silicon chips, but not spending my money on expensive ww machines or paying for someone else's work helps me afford better versions of the stuff I do need to buy.

I don't keep expensive power tools that get used only once in a while - the tools I have (powered or not) get used regularly. I don't see the benefit TO ME in the small amounts of time saved using some power tools vs the cost of buying them/ retooling around that machine and then often becoming completely reliant on that machine to function. For instance, using a framing nailer means buying/ renting the nailer, compressor, compressor lines, special nails that only work in the nailer and cost more, keeping the damnable compressor running, learning/ remembering the safety rules for compressed air and nailers, and more. The time saved or effort saved using the nailer mean something to tradespeople and others who can see the long-term cost recovery value in it for numerous projects - or to those who don't want the physical effort of hammering. To me, though, the costs saved, annoyance avoided, and skills learned by using effective but simpler methods and tools are what I value, as well as knowing the level of quality is where I want it. A framing nailer is cool, but a framing hammer and loose nails is just fine for my needs - and I've built a 24'x24' addition to my house, large studio shed and other big projects with just those - and I never had to stop because the hammer's o-ring blew out. Yes, I could perform the right maintenance, keep ready spare parts, have a variety of nails and all that, but I don't need another program to run in my life.

Knowing the methods of tool use and also the factors in construction (grain direction, wood movement, etc.) helps me avoid absolute crap when buying furniture and tools- or helping one of my daughters buy something for their use.

I'm no survivalist extremist, but non-powered hand tools and their methods also mean self-sufficiency to me and if needed, I can provide reasonable shelter and furnishings without relying on gas or electrical power.

I also think preserving the traditional knowledge and passing it on is a benefit to our societies - I don't want us to end up like the future people in the movies Wall-E or Idiocracy, although sometimes it seems inevitable for most.

my thoughts, developed to convince my wife that rusty tools from the flea market have great value above the dollars spent.
Karl

[Brian Holcombe]

Working in the hand tool canon teaches reliance upon one's self. It teaches you to check with winding sticks, reduce variables and use real dimensions. In reducing these variables and using single references and further checking those references we can do accurate work in a variable material.

It has increased my understand of material by many times. I am highly focused on what I'm buying at the lumber yard and very much in tuned with material quality and grain direction in the work.

[Pat Barry]

More neander work means significantly more time spent sharpening and working much slower. Much simpler and way faster to cut dadoes with a table saw and plane a surface with a benchtop planer. Plus the beauty of the carbide tools is they last a heckuva lot longer. Of course cross-cutting and ripping and planing by hand have some exercise value, so you can always look at that in a positive light :)

[Warren Mickley]

More neander work means significantly more time spent sharpening and working much slower. Much simpler and way faster to cut dadoes with a table saw and plane a surface with a benchtop planer. Plus the beauty of the carbide tools is they last a heckuva lot longer. Of course cross-cutting and ripping and planing by hand have some exercise value, so you can always look at that in a positive light :)

More hand work means sharpening more often and much more skill sharpening. More ripping means more skill with the saw, which pays dividends when using the saw for joinery. More planing for stock preparation means more intimacy with the material and much more skill with the plane.

[James Pallas]

I think it may be a little dangerous to make a 3 minute dovetail on a table saw.:)
Jim

[Roger Nair]

Most of my neander experience has come in the realm of timber framing. Examining old work gave me insight into how work was done before the Civil War with basic tools and disciplined control of dimensions without the use of steel tapes and transits. How to cut 300 framing timbers over months off-site and assemble the frame over a week (I would however bring in a crane on raising day.) I learned how to work to a plan and trust the plan. I learned how to develop detailed building plans and learned basic structural principles. I could say trust me with confidence.

[William Fretwell]

I feel sorry for homo sapiens with power tools for everything. They remain detached from the wood. Hand methods bring you much closer to the material, give you more satisfaction and inner peace. It takes the factory out of the shop and installs a craftsman that has time to think about what he is doing. The power tool constraints and rigidity of form are vanquished. Working is safer, waste is less, and "NO" it won't be ready by next Friday.

[Patrick Chase]

More neander work means significantly more time spent sharpening and working much slower. Much simpler and way faster to cut dadoes with a table saw and plane a surface with a benchtop planer. Plus the beauty of the carbide tools is they last a heckuva lot longer. Of course cross-cutting and ripping and planing by hand have some exercise value, so you can always look at that in a positive light :)

Are you sure you're on the right forum?

To Stanley: Nicely done. That was far more thoughtful and entertaining than my paltry effort.

[Jim Koepke]

It has changed me to take more notice of moldings and joinery holding pieces together in antique shops and other places.

It is fun and educational to analyze how craftsmen worked a century ago.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I believe that noise is the biggest thing for me. In a powered shop you are surrounded by it all day. You walk in the shop turn on the lights and then the air compressor, the dust collector, and the radio loud enough to drown out those two items. Screaming saws, routers, sanders and more for 8 hours. Then to shut down, rolling up cords and hoses and the dust, everywhere dust. It wears me out just remembering. It was however necessary to make a living. Glad I can use a broom and dustpan and just flip off the light switch and walk outside and hear the birds songs without having to wait 2 hours for your hearing to recover.
Jim

[Pat Barry]

Are you sure you're on the right forum?

To Stanley: Nicely done. That was far more thoughtful and entertaining than my paltry effort.
WHat do you mean "on the right forum"? Is this supposed to be only for primadonna exclusive hand tool users? Can't a guy contribute their own thoughts that 1) yes, hand tool use places a much greater emphasis on the need for sharp tools and that this time spent sharpening takes away from the actual productive woodworking experience. 2) that, yes, machine tools have materials (carbide for example) that tends to last a heckuka lot longer and therefore not require the time spent sharpening 3) that there are faster ways to accomplish tasks than exclusively to use hand tools.

By the way, why is it that we can't get a carbide blade for a hand tool?

Sure, we love our hand tools - I agree. Does that mean that because I occasionally use a power tool I'm banned from discussion here? Sickening that only certain viewpoints are allowed without derision.

[Brian Holcombe]

There are replaceable blade hand planes, but not sure if they use carbide or HSS as I've never used one.

I don't really think that anyone feels that you should not contribute for use of machine tools. I tend to admire both, but typically stick with hand tools as they're practical for my small workshop and have greatly improved my woodworking. If your goal is expedience and quality than you should not ignore one for the sake of the other, it's definitely not true that handtools are slower in every instance. I'm certain that I can finish plane much faster than I could sand with an electric sander and do so to a similar level of quality probably edging toward the hand plane because it will be a flatter result.

I'd further contest the notion that a dado set is going to do a better job on cutting a dado than a batten and hand plane, time aside. The dado set will cut it only as well as the board was jointed, where the batten will flatten a lightly cupped board.

Many machine tools rely upon the precision of those steps previous to their operation, IE your resaw is only as good as your jointing job and so on. So you're practically limited to your machine tools, fine if you have a huge jointer, giant resaw (:D) and so forth. Not so much if you are using a 6-8" jointer and hobby level machine tools.

Knowing hand tools means knowing sharpness, I know exactly when my carbide bandsaw blade is getting tired, same with my router bits and track saw/crosscut blades. I know how sharp should cut and what the finished cut should look like, sound like, feed like, etc.

[Patrick Chase]

By the way, why is it that we can't get a carbide blade for a hand tool?

For the basically the same reasons that nobody shaves with carbide razors.

Carbide is extremely brittle and therefore can't be honed to "useful" edge angles for hand work. Try working with a 60 deg chisel and you'll see what I mean. Carbide also historically has pretty coarse grain structure (though this is improving), which limits the achievable edge refinement. Carbide is great when you have a few horsepower at your disposal to force the tool through the work, not so much if you're limited to one humanpower.

There are specific hand tool applications where carbide works reasonably well. For example the "working surfaces" of birdcage awls are 90 deg, so the Czeck edge one does a pretty decent job. Because it's carbide it has a more blunt point than some steel awls, but that's not a big deal functionally.

The rest of my post was a joke btw. You posted observations about neander WW that seemed to be exclusively negative (none of the usual "but it brings me closer to the wood" or "but I find it to be meditative even if it takes longer") so I lightly ribbed you about it. That's all.

[Patrick Chase]

There are replaceable blade hand planes, but not sure if they use carbide or HSS as I've never used one.

I don't really think that anyone feels that you should not contribute for use of machine tools. I tend to admire both, but typically stick with hand tools as they're practical for my small workshop and have greatly improved my woodworking. If your goal is expedience and quality than you should not ignore one for the sake of the other, it's definitely not true that handtools are slower in every instance. I'm certain that I can finish plane much faster than I could sand with an electric sander and do so to a similar level of quality probably edging toward the hand plane because it will be a flatter result.

A super-surfacer has the same cutting mechanics as a hand plane and can be faster still, but in general I think your point is right on. Machines excel at producing adequate results (for some definition thereof) as quickly and with as little effort as possible. The vast majority of furniture is made to standards that are well within reach of machines, which is why handwork only persists as a commercial endeavor on the high end.

[Brian Holcombe]

Totally agree, a super surfacer would be considerably faster. My understanding is that some will still do a final finish plane after that depending on the nature of the job.

Advanced machinery is a whole 'nother topic. I greatly admire some of the more advanced machines like CNC swing chisel mortisers and super surfacers with automatic return. Seeing a double haunched mortise cut perfectly with smooth sides to exact depth and perfect untouched shoulders....in 20 seconds....is a thing of real beauty.

[Ted Phillips]

For me, woodworking is a form of therapy. It relaxes me, forces me to adjust my focus away from work issues, and generally lowers my blood pressure. Power tools don't help in that regard - the table saw scares the bejesus out of me every time I fire it up. I eventually gave it to a friend of mine (I've got visitation rights in case I need to do some serious ripping). And I'm thinking about selling the routers next. I'll probably always keep the band saw and drill press - they tend to reduce stress rather than add to it...

But nothing - NOTHING - lowers my blood pressure more than the *snick* of a full-width shaving from my jack plane. Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

[Rob Luter]

Yes. Yes it does. I'll expound further when I have a keyboard in front of me. Thumb typing does not promote fluid thoughts.

[Bill McDermott]

It takes me far, far longer to select a 2x4.

Also, it has given my confidence to undertake a wide range of hands on activities. At the moment, I am replacing a fiberglass insert shower with a hand-built shower of my own design and construction. I have never done anything like this before, but am confident I can do a good job. This is a true blessing.

Unfortunately, it has also trained my eye to see shoddy workmanship that I wish I was not seeing, all around me. I struggle to let it go.

It has connected the loop between my brain and my hands and back to my brain. That circuit has a lot of bandwidth.

[Derek Cohen]

The difference between hand and power tools lies more with the way you approach construction than simply dust vs no dust.

There is no inherent skill learned about woodgrain if you use hand tools. This is learned by observation and a thoughtfulness - insights that are gained by those who take the time to learn, and not whether you use hand or power. Using hand tools does not magically offer this understanding and knowledge.

There are advantages to using all types of tools. Power is not simply about replacing hands inept. At the same time, power will rarely offer the delicacy and precision that hand tools can.

There is joinery that power tools cannot replicate, and there is an efficiency of effort that may be unmatched by hand tools when working heavy and hard woods.

There is no doubt that the two methods approach work differently. Hand work can teach you shortcuts to create efficiency. Power can rob the student the opportunity to learn this.

On the other hand, power makes some techniques feasible that are not the domain of hand tools, such as thin laminations for curves.

I use both hand and power interchangeably. However, I think like a hand tool worker, for example, sawing close to the line and finishing with a hand plane. The benefit from power lies with speeding up the tasks that would have been completed by apprentices in days of olde. The benefit from hand tools lies with the ability to add the delicacy and precision in designs that are beyond power tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek (with a new table saw to go with a new combination plane)

[Matt Lau]

The difference between hand and power tools lies more with the way you approach construction than simply dust vs no dust.

There is no inherent skill learned about woodgrain if you use hand tools. This is learned by observation and a thoughtfulness - insights that are gained by those who take the time to learn, and not whether you use hand or power. Using hand tools does not magically offer this understanding and knowledge.

There are advantages to using all types of tools. Power is not simply about replacing hands inept. At the same time, power will rarely offer the delicacy and precision that hand tools can.

There is joinery that power tools cannot replicate, and there is an efficiency of effort that may be unmatched by hand tools when working heavy and hard woods.

There is no doubt that the two methods approach work differently. Hand work can teach you shortcuts to create efficiency. Power can rob the student the opportunity to learn this.

On the other hand, power makes some techniques feasible that are not the domain of hand tools, such as thin laminations for curves.

I use both hand and power interchangeably. However, I think like a hand tool worker, for example, sawing close to the line and finishing with a hand plane. The benefit from power lies with speeding up the tasks that would have been completed by apprentices in days of olde. The benefit from hand tools lies with the ability to add the delicacy and precision in designs that are beyond power tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek (with a new table saw to go with a new combination plane)


Thanks guys for the thought provoking comments.
I'd actually forgotten about this thread, since I've been focussing on my business, getting loan documents ready, Texas flooding, and the storm in Florida.

Derek's thoughts are particularly pertinent as I find myself with increasingly less time to do stuff.
I like neander--not to prove something---but for the practical fact that you can do a lot without needing 100's of lb of machinery, noise, and sawdust. It's like a super power to make stuff inside a limited space and tools (like my bedroom, or on the beach)...to make stuff exactly as you want it.

I was driven to japanese tools because they work...and work well.

However, I'm finding myself mainly using power tools for "brute forcing" projects and finishing with hand tools.
I don't like power tools, because they're loud, spew dust, and can easily mangle fingers.
But they work, and save much time.

Anyways, reading these thoughts helped me clear my mind.
Thanks.

[James Waldron]

Hunkered down here in Florida, I can see my Neander ways will keep me able to work while the power tool guys up the street are out of juice for a while. Even if I lose my gen set and, hence, my lights, I can work by candle light or oil lamp. I wish now I had a shirt with those puffy sleeves. And maybe a vest. We are still in the very earliest stages of Irma where I am, but we're starting to have power outages already from the outer bands knocking down trees.

"Improvise, adapt, overcome." Gunny Highway

[Brian Holcombe]

One great thing about handtools. I saw a post by Chris Hall some years ago he had made a nice simple structure and lived out in the countryside for a time.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

No need to recharge the brace.

[Patrick Chase]

Hunkered down here in Florida, I can see my Neander ways will keep me able to work while the power tool guys up the street are out of juice for a while. Even if I lose my gen set and, hence, my lights, I can work by candle light or oil lamp. I wish now I had a shirt with those puffy sleeves. And maybe a vest. We are still in the very earliest stages of Irma where I am, but we're starting to have power outages already from the outer bands knocking down trees.

"Improvise, adapt, overcome." Gunny Highway

Ouch, sorry to hear you're in the path. Best wishes for you and your family to pull through OK.

I saw some footage this morning of blue flashes from transformer explosions. Ugly.

[Patrick Chase]

Replying seriously this time: Developing neander skills has greatly improved my approach to small and detailed work.

In the past if I was confronted with a job that wasn't worth the effort to set up a power tool, such as low-volume stuff that requires significant up-front jigging/fixturing with a power tool, then I'd usually find some excuse not to do it. Having some degree of hand-tool skill (I don't claim to be expert) has opened up a whole new world of approaches to such work. Likewise I now find myself creating details that would be impractical with my power tools.

Working by hand has also taught me to read the wood better than before, which has actually improved my use of power tools.

I'm fairly careful about my lungs (wood dust can be very bad news) and have less-than-ideal dust extraction for my power tools, so not having to put on a gas mask every time I work is a big plus.

[Zach Dillinger]

Yes, it absolutely changes the way you look at woodworking and other manual crafts.

[John Sanford]

yes, it does. It opens up options. That's mostly about it. With the right tooling, skills, energy and time, there's very little that can't be done with either power tools or hand tools. What balance of the above factors works best varies between individual and application, as well as across time. One CAN get a flawless glasslike finish on ANY wood using either handplanes OR power sanding. One can cut variable spaced teeny weeny dovetails with power tools. One can take a tree down with an axe and turn the thing into a full bedroom set without the expenditure of a single electron. It's just a question of the above balance.

There is one other element that neander introduces. Taking more care to avoid "wasted effort", simply because that wasted effort involves more sweat.

[Matthew Springer]

So for me, the Neander impulse is about other pre-existing personality quirks that show up two other places: In my kitchen (I'm a much better cook than woodworker) and in my coding.

-> I tend to value skill and pre-planning over "just banging something out". It drives me nuts reviewing code changes were the underlying bug fix makes the overall code flow much worse because the other person couldn't be bothered to understand the surrounding code. I will take the time to properly sear the steak. That's just how it's done.
The downside of this is I can sometime sover-moralize choices as "right" and "Wrong"as opposed to "quick but good enough" vs "slower but likely not effectively any better".

-> I don't like participating in things I don't particularly understand the operation of. My rule in coding is I never copy and paste code I don't understand.
-> I don't mind going slow as long as I don't have to do stuff over. I want to do things with the highest quality,strongest way possible because I am LAZY and want things to stay solved once I solve them.

As I've gotten older I've come to realize these are, in fact, quirks. Hopefully as we age, we become more self aware and flexible in our outlook.

These quirks shows up in my cooking alot as I don't really do power tools in the kitchen either unless they do something I can't with my knife. I will sit there and chop 50 lbs of peaches instead of using the food processor in order to keep listening to music while I work.

[John Sanford]

These quirks shows up in my cooking alot as I don't really do power tools in the kitchen either unless they do something I can't with my knife. I will sit there and chop 50 lbs of peaches instead of using the food processor in order to keep listening to music while I work.

See, that's where "options" comes in. Your peaches example is perfect. Me, I would DEFINITELY use a food processor for 50lbs of peaches. Yet I rarely use my food processor. 5 peaches? Those I will chop. Not, mind you, because I prefer using the knife or the relative silence. No, because the hassle of getting the FP out and then cleaning it afterwards outweighs the "convenience". The same dynamic is in play for me in the shop. My DP, OBS, and 14" BS are the only power tools I have that are always plugged in. So if I'm going to use the TS or J/P, I have to plug them into the dryer outlet in the laundry room AND then hook them up to the DC, which ALSO has to be plugged in. So I'll often use hand tools for quick things rather than hassling with the tailed apprentices.

[Brad Barnhart]

I'm kinda the "new guy" if you will. Not to wood working, by no means, but to this neander deal. I've been wood working over 25 years, some construction, but mostly in the shop. I'm a retired OTR truck driver with most of my body beat to hell from sittin' in a truck all my life.

How I got started in this endeavor, my Sawbones told me over 25 years ago if I didn't quit eatin', sleepin', thinkin', & drinkin' trucks, there was goin' to be a small funeral here. Mine. At that point, my loving bride decided I needed a hobby to lower my stress & get my mind off the trucks. Somehow, she come up with wood working. I'd never been around it in my life, only to haul lumber. So, followin' my Sawbones' orders, & goin' along w/her brilliant idea, the library became my best friend. I checked out books on everything from wood to the tools. Read all I could before we started buyin' tools.

We finally bought a few used tools. A RAS, a ts, router & a few bits, drill & a few bits, palm sander, level, & a single speed scroll saw. I went to the lumber store & bought some lumber, & started foolin' around & just tryin' to get the feel of the tools. As the years went by, I managed to perfect the scroll saw. I've worn out two. We own 5 scroll saws now, & a shop full of about all the toys I can get in my tiny shop.;)

I don't do much hand work, honestly, because I'm self taught on power tools. I've got a few hand planes, & do use a couple of them, especially when I've got a glue up to big for my planer. But I don't know anything about sharpening the blades, none of that. I've read some about it, but haven't used mine enough for them to be sharpened. I want to learn more about it, & want to use a few more hand tools. I think the biggest thing for me usin' hand tools is the connection w/the wood. I can see the beauty of it closer, smell the different woods. With power tools, you don't get that opportunity. What comes off the jointer & out of the planer is what you have.

Safety is another issue. Not so much for me, but for others that come in the shop. I don't have to worry about them getting hurt.

My apologies for the length, & maybe this wasn't the place to post what I have, but, from reading all the other posts ahead of mine, I've learned a lot. Being a scroll sawyer by choice, there's alot I don't know, but want to learn. Hopefully you fellas will help me out. I appreciate the chance to post. Brad.

[Bob Glenn]

Several things come to mind that have changed since I've gotten serious about using hand tools. First, I've come to appreciate how much can be learned by just listening to the way a blade is cutting. The sounds made as you work give you hints about the sharpness of the tool you are using, the wood and it's orientation that is being worked, and the effectiveness of the work holding method being used.

We have a senior center near by with a wood working shop that I occasionally visit usually to use their wide jointer when surfacing a wooden plane. I always amazes me during the visits how noisy the shop is at any given moment. I recently invited the person who oversees that shop to visit mine. He had a few interesting observations. There is no saw dust, you don't use sand paper do you? Rarely. You have a radio playing in the shop and where is your table saw?

Lastly, I've learned to appreciate tool marks (or at least accept them!), as the signature of the maker. Learned this first from making windsor chairs. At first I tried to make them "Walmart perfect". Now I use a scrub plane as a finishing tool on the chair bottoms. It's wonderful to see people's reaction when they discover this while exploring the chair. It is almost sensual!

[John C Cox]

For me - the more I learn, the more I appreciate fine workmanship... I appreciate the time and care that goes into making things right.

I have also come to realize that better hand "tool chops" makes all your work better... When you learn to cut really straight accurate cuts with a hand saw - your power saw cuts tend to improve as well. Etc...

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks guys for the thought provoking comments.
I'd actually forgotten about this thread, since I've been focussing on my business, getting loan documents ready, Texas flooding, and the storm in Florida.

Derek's thoughts are particularly pertinent as I find myself with increasingly less time to do stuff.
I like neander--not to prove something---but for the practical fact that you can do a lot without needing 100's of lb of machinery, noise, and sawdust. It's like a super power to make stuff inside a limited space and tools (like my bedroom, or on the beach)...to make stuff exactly as you want it.

I was driven to japanese tools because they work...and work well.

However, I'm finding myself mainly using power tools for "brute forcing" projects and finishing with hand tools.
I don't like power tools, because they're loud, spew dust, and can easily mangle fingers.
But they work, and save much time.

Anyways, reading these thoughts helped me clear my mind.
Thanks.

I'll argue that no tool is a brute force tool, at least for woodworking. A bit of finesse goes a long way in every aspect of this craft by machine or hand.

[Patrick Chase]

I'll argue that no tool is a brute force tool, at least for woodworking. A bit of finesse goes a long way in every aspect of this craft by machine or hand.

Hmm, maybe that's what I'm missing.

Seriously, there are shades of grey here. IMO paring typically involves more finesse than chopping, etc.

I just can't abide people who drive their chisels through the stuff with metal hammers though. So... brutish :-).

[Brian Holcombe]

Hah! Watch out for those types!

Finesse when chopping as well, in a way. Over time and experience I've gone from feeling that I needed to chop with heavy 450-750g hammers toward 225g-450g hammers more often now the lighter of them. I've attributed this to an increased ability to strike more effectively. Stan's tuning if my handle shape along with my own changes in how I chop, how much bite I take and generally using the bevel most often.

Im using a lot of white oak at the moment, it can be hard on edges and so careful use allows me to preserve my edges for longer than aggressive use. By careful I do not mean slow or light, I strike the chisel swiftly but carefully manage the chisel handle.

[Matt Lau]

It's actually really informative to see all these replies.
In all seriousness, I find it extremely humbling to see all the steps, preperation, and details to make things turn out right. It challenges me to think harder, prepare better, and try to do better work on my patient's mouths.
While I still use power tools, electric and pneumatic handpeices, and embrace technological progress, I think there's much to learn from the nameless traditional craftsman.