I broke my vice - again

[John Ziebron]

Well, they say the third time's a charm. But I hope in this case that never happens. I think I finally learned my lesson. That is, NEVER use anything to extend the leverage of the vice handle.

My brother gave me a large, 6 inch, made in Poland metal vice for Christmas 46 years ago. In all that time I'm sure there were times I used a short pipe as a handle extension and never had a problem. That is, until 2 years ago when the additional leverage caused the vice to break.

I was lucky in that I was able to repair the vice and life went back to normal. That is until a few days ago when I had a brain lapse (or maybe a relapse) and used a pipe extension again. And yes, I broke the vice again. I took this picture of it broken but not before I already ground my bevel on one of the pieces.
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I was able to weld it again, paint it and put it back in service.
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And here I thought we get weaker with age, or maybe the pipe just got longer. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon7.png

[david privett]

where you able to weld it from both sides?

[John Ziebron]

David, yes I was. I used 7018 rod so it was not too hard to weld on the inner surface although it doesn't look very pretty and I really couldn't clean it up with a grinder. But you'd have to be laying on the floor with a flashlight to see it. :D

[Charles Lent]

You didn't bevel the edges of the break, so you just have a thin weld and a weak point. With the roughly 37 deg beveled edges you get to fill it with new metal, providing a much stronger joint with increased surface area between the weld and the original metal than you get when just surface welding.. A high nickle content rod would provide more weld elasticity of the joint in this cast material under load as well. Also, don't cool the work with water or oil after you weld it. Let it air cool slowly. You probably aren't willing to do it over, now that it's back together, so just remember this for when it breaks again.

Charley

[John Ziebron]

Charley,

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I meant to take a picture of the break before I started working on the repair. But I beveled one of the pieces and then remembered to take a picture. But before I welded it I did bevel inside and outside of both pieces, just like I did the first time it broke. And I did let the piece air cool after welding.

[John K Jordan]

...I had a brain lapse (or maybe a relapse) and used a pipe extension again....
And here I thought we get weaker with age, or maybe the pipe just got longer.

Although the body gets weaker with age, unfortunately so does the mind at on occasion! I haven't used a cheater bar on a vise but I think I'll spray the handle of mine with bright red paint. Maybe that will give me pause if I ever decide that would be a good idea. :)

I've never tried to weld cast iron, always brazed. Years ago I was told it was difficult to weld unless preheated - did you have to do that? In a previous life I was a welding inspector in an industrial setting and preheating was the way. I see Lincoln says you can either preheat (500-1200F) or keep it cool (100F): http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/Pages/welding-cast-iron-detail.aspx

Hey, if you like working with steel here's an idea - weld up a big honkin' vise from scratch from, say, 1" thick steel stock. That would be harder to break.

JKJ

[John Ziebron]

John, I like your idea of painting the handle.

I never welded cast iron before the vice broke the first time. Did a lot of research before attempting the repair. I also read where many articles that said to preheat. But I found as many solutions as there are ways to make mortises. I have a small 220v MIG, a small gas torch and an old (about 50 years) Montgomery Ward 295 amp arc welder. So the best solution based on my welders on hand was to use the arc welder with 7018 rod.

For as many years as I've owned the vice I figured it didn't owe me anything and if the repair worked so much the better. I have to admit that when I broke it the second time I was flattening the end of a fairly thin wall piece of pipe. Truth is I was lazy and should have set up to do it on my 20 ton hydraulic press. But I just love fixing things.:p

[Charles Lent]

I also suggested using a high nickle content rod. I never even attempt to weld cast iron or forged steel without using it. These rods are expensive and don't store well for long periods without going bad, but most welding supply stores will sell these by the rod because they know this. For that job two or three rods would be enough (about $4). Grind a bevel on both pieces, not just one and then fill to just above level. Let air cool or better yet, wrap in a welding blanket or bury in sand to slow the cooling, then grind/machine to suit. The nickle content offers the flexibility needed in the joint to keep the cast or forged material from cracking during the cooling and afterward. There is a significant difference in the thermal properties between the weld material and the cast material with different rates of expansion and contraction during the welding process that causes the fracturing as the welded parts cool. Slowing the rate of cooling and providing the high nickle content in the weld produces a very strong weld when done correctly. There is a lot more to welding than just learning how to stick two pieces of metal back together.

Charley

[John K Jordan]

...I was flattening the end of a fairly thin wall piece of pipe. Truth is I was lazy and should have set up to do it on my 20 ton hydraulic press. But I just love fixing things.:p

Ha! I actually wrote "or use a hydraulic press" then erased it since I didn't know what you were doing. I would sorely hate to be without my press, a 20 ton with a pressure gauge - use it a lot.

Just this past week my Lovely Bride showed my her favorite 20 qt cooking pot, heavy stainless, we've had it for 40 years. It had warped on the bottom and would no longer sit flat. 20 seconds with the hydraulic press fixed it. OK, one minute - I had to lower the crossbar first. (And the grandkids love it when I let them squish pennies.)

JKJ

[Bill Berklich]

Ha! I actually wrote "or use a hydraulic press" then erased it since I didn't know what you were doing. I would sorely hate to be without my press, a 20 ton with a pressure gauge - use it a lot. (And the grandkids love it when I let them squish pennies.)

JKJ

Lol... 20 ton press? were do you guys find this stuff?

[John K Jordan]

Lol... 20 ton press? were do you guys find this stuff?

I got mine at Northern Tool, looks something like this one:

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If I were a rich man or if I had a business I probably would have gotten a model that operates by compressed air instead of a manual lever. The manual pump is fairly slow but works very well. I've used it for a wide variety of things from straightening heavy angle iron on tractor equipment to pressing out wheel studs on my truck to flattening steel tubing.

The press, a Portapower hydraulic ram, some pullers, a big vise and an anvil, a mill and lathe, plasma cutter and oxy-acetelyne torch, welding machines, angle grinders, a couple of metal-cutting bandsaws, drill press, some 3' long wrenches and big honkin' pliers, a set of 1" drive sockets, some good pneumatic tools, a row of roll-around tool boxes for small tools, a great big hammer and a shed full of 20' long steel stock - I can usually make or fix about anything around the farm that needs it. It's a good hobby. And everything is so darned heavy it's good exercise too. :)

JKJ

[John Ziebron]

I bought mine at Harbor Freight a few years ago. I believe I only paid $120 using their 20% off coupon. Like John, mine is also manual and if I used it more often I'd replace the bottle jack with an air/hydraulic one. I also have a SWAG brake press accessory for it and have bent 1/2 inch stock that was 6 inches wide.

One of the nice things about metal working versus woodworking is the gratification comes sooner since welding is an instantaneous bond. And you usually don't have to be as finicky about the final finish.:D

[John K Jordan]

One of the nice things about metal working versus woodworking is the gratification comes sooner since welding is an instantaneous bond.

That was the first thing that hit me after I got my first little wire welder - I used to spend much effort figuring out how to hold certain things together, hunt for brackets, drill holes, bolts and screws, epoxy. Now it is far easier - weld on a tab, make a custom bracket in a few minutes. One of the first things I did was tack weld a little piece on my radial arm saw that for years I had held with bailing wire - a permanent fix took about 15 seconds. Add a few tools like a mill and metal lathe (and press!) and there is not much around the farm you can't fix or make.

One of the joys is being able to fix things like wheelbarrows and generators for friends that they would otherwise have trashed since replacement parts and service are often unobtainable or too expensive. Another thing is being able to make my own tools as needed or on a whim, like this little saw (steel rod, hacksaw, torch, TIG welder, mill) ...

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...or make things that would be expensive to buy and make them better than you can buy, like this llama/alpaca restraint chute for medication and shearing. A commercial one is $1700 before shipping (300+ lbs).

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JKJ

[Bill Berklich]

That was the first thing that hit me after I got my first little wire welder - I used to spend much effort figuring out how to hold certain things together, hunt for brackets, drill holes, bolts and screws, epoxy. Now it is far easier - weld on a tab, make a custom bracket in a few minutes. One of the first things I did was tack weld a little piece on my radial arm saw that for years I had held with bailing wire - a permanent fix took about 15 seconds. Add a few tools like a mill and metal lathe (and press!) and there is not much around the farm you can't fix or make.

One of the joys is being able to fix things like wheelbarrows and generators for friends that they would otherwise have trashed since replacement parts and service are often unobtainable or too expensive. Another thing is being able to make my own tools as needed or on a whim, like this little saw (steel rod, hacksaw, torch, TIG welder, mill) ...

366973

...or make things that would be expensive to buy and make them better than you can buy, like this llama/alpaca restraint chute for medication and shearing. A commercial one is $1700 before shipping (300+ lbs).

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JKJ


EVERY time you guys post I learn something. I was just looking at a HF welding table and small welder for some of those same reasons. And I did see the 20T press I just don't have a spot for it.

[John K Jordan]

I was just looking at a HF welding table and small welder for some of those same reasons. And I did see the 20T press I just don't have a spot for it.

I started many years ago with a little Lincoln Weld Pack 100, a 110v wire welder (from Home Depot) that can be used with a gas tank/regulator kit as a MIG welder or used with flux core wire with no gas. The flux core wire makes it simpler to use and more portable without lugging a tank around, but this is at the expense of welds that have more spatter and are not as pretty.

Once you learn the basics of preparing the metal and about heat and penetration it is as easy to use as writing with a crayon - much easier than learning to control a stick or TIG rod. I was a welding inspector back in the 70s so I knew what made a good weld but I never learned to weld until I got that little machine. I learned from a book I bought at Home Depot.

A welder like this has limitations but is very capable. It is "rated" for fairly thin steel but there are ways around that. I've built and repaired numerous things with mine, thin and thick, from replacing a rusted out section of door panel in my ancient flat bed farm truck to reinforcing a 1/2" thick piece of angle iron supporting a trailer hitch. I have better welders now but I keep this one around since it is so small and portable (and 110v) I can easily carry it somewhere in the car. Also, it's probably the only tool I have which I'll lend to farmer friends.

I don't know what the HF welder is like, but if it's like other small wire welders it will come with a 2 lb spool of wire. If you end up welding a lot get the spindle (if not included) to use the 10 lb spools. They are cheaper in the long run, and it is frustrating to run out of wire in the middle of a project!

Be advised that all these welders have a duty cycle - you have to let the machine rest and cool off for maybe 2/3rds or 4/5ths of the time. This is usually not a problem since you can stop and grind, clean spatter, or set up the next piece.

An auto-darkening helmet is a huge advantage - I'd hate to weld without it. I use this one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AAQ4ZPK but I also have some really cheap ones which work fine.

You won't need a press if your neighbor has one. Go over and see if he has room. Or maybe your wife would like a unique conversation piece in dining room.

JKJ

[Bill George]

Good advise John. I remember as a kid growing up on the farm my dad repaired a cast iron bench vice with brazing, it lasted through 3 of us kids, installing or pressing in U joints and much more . Never cracked or broke.
Learned to weld on the same farm POS Dayton low arc voltage buzz box. Terrible to get an arc started but then it was fine. Now fast forward 60 years or so and I have and have owned some really nice welding machines..... but still learning.
PS If your going to buy a welder, spend the money and get a good one, its a lifetime investment and much easier to learn on.

[John Ziebron]

Good advice Bill, I totally agree. But I learned that lesson the hard way with mig welders. Many years ago my first mig welder was the HF 90 Amp unit. Never could get it to weld right so I took a one on one class with a retired expert. The problem was they gave you a 2 pound spool of .035 wire and this unit couldn't handle it. Worked OK with .030 and .026 wire but I was not able to weld anything thicker than about 1/4 inch.

So the next year I bought their 150 Amp welder. It was better but I modified it by adding a couple of large capacitors on the output side. It worked OK too and I was able to weld up a tandem axle trailer which is still in good service today. But the welds never looked good to me, not like the ones I made with the retired expert's equipment. He had all Miller equipment.

I sold that welder when I had a chance to buy a used Lincoln 170T, which is what I still use today. The difference in welds is like night and day. And the other discovery I made is that the cheaper welders, like HF, come with shorter welding leads and power cord. This was especially a problem for me with the trailer as I was constantly moving the welder around.

My advice is to buy Miller or Lincoln, even a used one, or at the very least, a mid-grade welder like Hobart, Clarke or Everlast.

[Bill George]

Yes, I have downsized my shop in prepping to more to a retirement home sometime in the future. My MIG is a Hobart Handler 140 on a cart and small tank. Its 120 volt and could use flux core if needed. My stick welder is a dual voltage Longevity invertor that runs a beautiful bead with just about any rod. Once again 120 or 240 volts and very portable. Helmet, self darkening adjustable shade Miller. I believe the cheaper HF wire welders are AC out, my Hobart is a DC out machine, same as my Longevity.

[John K Jordan]

...I believe the cheaper HF wire welders are AC out, my Hobart is a DC out machine, same as my Longevity.

When I read that I thought "how can that be, that would be terrible!" Sir Google showed me this:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/harbor-freight-90a-flux-core-ac-to-dc-conversion.51693/

JKJ

[Bill George]

When I read that I thought "how can that be, that would be terrible!" Sir Google showed me this:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/harbor-freight-90a-flux-core-ac-to-dc-conversion.51693/

JKJ

Yes that would be a very good improvement project. The HF welders are not bad, just the Hobart, Miller and Lincolns are better. Easier to get a good weld with DC, but there are a LOT of AC buzz boxes out there and doing a good job everyday! I learned to weld on one, and believe me once I mastered that, anything was easy.

[John K Jordan]

Yes that would be a very good improvement project. The HF welders are not bad, just the Hobart, Miller and Lincolns are better. Easier to get a good weld with DC, but there are a LOT of AC buzz boxes out there and doing a good job everyday! I learned to weld on one, and believe me once I mastered that, anything was easy.

I don't have any problem with an AC stick welder (once I learned how!) but have a hard time wrapping my head around an AC wire welder, the principle value maybe being the cheap cost of the machine. However, a little further reading directed by google shows there are occasional people that get good use out of the Harbor Freight 90 amp AC flux core welder.

When I got an AC/DC stick welder I found my welds did look better with DC. Not beautiful, but better. I don't think anyone has ever told me my welds looked beautiful. Fortunately, the horses and llamas don't aren't too critical.

Another thing for anyone to keep in mind when buying a welder is where you are going to plug it. Three of my welders came with a huge plug that fits into a 50 amp receptacle. I wired a few of these in the shop, inside and out. Fortunately my Miller MIG and TIG machines will also plug into 110v outlets and work at reduced power. This is great where there is no 50 amp outlet in sight.

JKJ

[Bill George]

You live in a beautiful state John, we drive through it pretty often and it sounds like you have a nice farm. The one thing about a stick welder either AC or DC once you can run a decent bead it usually holds. Whereas a MIG welder bead can look very nice, and not hold diddly!

[John K Jordan]

... a MIG welder bead can look very nice, and not hold diddly!

You got that right. Decades ago I was a welding inspector and both sectioned and polished weld samples and tested by breaking, etc., but mostly x-ray. Lack of penetration, inclusions, porosity, improper or omitted preheat, too rapid cooling and more can make the prettiest weld fall apart. But done right MIG is as strong as the untouched steel. Most of the bridge girder and beam welding I inspected was done indoors with huge automated MIG welders - set em up then sit back and watch.

Much of our work was to nuclear specifications both in the shop and in the field (by hand) and wow, some of those guys were GOOD! I once watched a tag team weld a stainless pipe with TIG, in place, maybe 30" in diameter and several inches thick, layer after layer, took days. My best TIG welds look like they were done by 3rd graders.

JKJ