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Brent Cutshall
08-19-2017, 9:35 PM
I've been thinking about this question for a while now. Didn't see anything in the TOS against it, so here it goes. I've read a lot of good and bad about black powder arms. I've been wondering about black powder Navy Colts. Some people love them and some hate them. Some people say there unreliable because of the powder and the caps. I've got a .50 percussion Hawkin that's pretty reliable, so I don't know what to make of it. Folks used pistols like that in the Civil War, and I'm guessing they were effective. I know I can make bullets for one, powder too, and I've got enough caps to last me a lifetime. Is there anyone here who has a black powder wheel gun(antique or modern reproduction) that can give me power/reliability/usability/self defense stats on one please. Thanks.

Bert Kemp
08-20-2017, 3:12 PM
I would go on some SASS websites and ask the black powder shooters there. They shoot these guns all the time in competition in Cowboy action shooting. heres one
http://powdercreekcowboys.com/bpShooting.html

Mike Henderson
08-20-2017, 3:30 PM
If you want something for self-defense, I sure wouldn't choose a black powder firearm. I'd choose something modern with a good reputation for reliability, especially for not jamming.

Black powder arms are for historical shooters.

Mike

Bert Kemp
08-20-2017, 3:59 PM
Ye3s don't use for personal defense that would be a bad choice.


If you want something for self-defense, I sure wouldn't choose a black powder firearm. I'd choose something modern with a good reputation for reliability, especially for not jamming.

Black powder arms are for historical shooters.

Mike

Dwight Rutherford
08-20-2017, 4:58 PM
Go here for expert advice;
muzzleloadingforum.com

Brent Cutshall
08-20-2017, 9:25 PM
But what I don't get is, how are they so "underpowered". What makes them so different. You can hot load them and put conical bullets in them if you need to, can't you? It's just a head scratcher for me. Some folks say a Hawkin is underpowered, but one day I took it out shooting. I used a gallon jug filled with water as a target. The only thing I could think was, that poor jug. A regular load and a round ball tore that jug in two, ripped it down the middle! How can a .44 Navy Colt or a .36 (practically the same size as a .357) be that different. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but it's bothering me to death.

daryl moses
08-20-2017, 9:53 PM
How can a .44 Navy Colt or a .36 (practically the same size as a .357) be that different.
It's all about muzzle velocity. Black powder simply can not push a projectile as fast as modern smokeless powder without running into pressure problems.
As an example...........the .36 with black powder can push a 160 gr bullet at 816 fps. A .357 with smokeless powder can push a 158 gr bullet in excess of 1500 fps. The old .44 pushes a 140 gr bullet at 960 fps a .44 mag shoots a 200 grainer at 1600 fps.
Velocity + bullet weight corresponds with energy.
I'm not knocking black powder, I shoot them myself, but you cannot expect them to shoot on par with modern arms shooting smokeless powders.

Bert Kemp
08-20-2017, 9:55 PM
Your asking in the wrong place go to the muzzle loading or SSAS websites these people can answer your questions.
What is your intention with black powder. Why not just get a regular modern hand gun???


But what I don't get is, how are they so "underpowered". What makes them so different. You can hot load them and put conical bullets in them if you need to, can't you? It's just a head scratcher for me. Some folks say a Hawkin is underpowered, but one day I took it out shooting. I used a gallon jug filled with water as a target. The only thing I could think was, that poor jug. A regular load and a round ball tore that jug in two, ripped it down the middle! How can a .44 Navy Colt or a .36 (practically the same size as a .357) be that different. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but it's bothering me to death.

Tom Stenzel
08-20-2017, 11:44 PM
One difference is written right on the cans of powder.

On the can of black powder: DANGER-EXPLOSIVE

On the can of smokeless power: DANGER-HIGHLY FLAMMABLE.

Black powder is an explosive being used as a propellant. Smokeless powder IS a propellant. Black powder can develop extremely high pressures but doesn't transfer the energy to the projectile well. Lots of pressure- when the projectile is stopped and just beginning to move.

Smokeless powder will maintain a higher pressure as the projectile accelerates. The result is better energy transfer.

It's similar to a long or recurve bow and a compound. A compound bow shoots an arrow faster. It has a better energy transfer. But long bows and recurves still work. And they don't have 'training wheels' as us Luddites say. :p It's all in what you want to do and find interesting.

My Black Powder Handgun book has a chapter on load longevity. A cap and ball revolver was left in a 90% humidity chamber for 90 days. Testing after that had the average velocity down 10%. A fresh load would achieve a bit over 1000 feet persecond, after 90 days it was close to 900 fps. That's a lot of lost energy.

Muzzleloaders and black powder certainly can be deadly. But when metallic cartridges and smokeless powder came along people got rid of that old stuff quick. Corrosive powders and primers are also a pain.

The guys playing with black powder are ones like me that just like the smoke and tinker with old timey stuff*. Plus the ones that like having a deer hunting season just for themselves. In Michigan we have a deer muzzle-loading season the start of December.

Although if I planned to deer now I'd take my Savage 99 or my shotgun. I want venison, heck that old junk.

-Tom

*So that's why I hang out in the Neanders forum?

Brent Cutshall
08-21-2017, 5:07 PM
Thanks everyone for your replies and help. I have just discovered something I might like, the conversion revolver. I'll look into it a bit more though. Thanks again.

Andrew Pitonyak
08-22-2017, 2:51 PM
Understanding that I don't keep a loaded firearm around, If you have a muzzle loader, it simply takes too long to load it. If it was all I had, it is what I would use.

From a statistical perspective, the majority of the time, simply producing a firearm ends the confrontation and no shots are fired. Most "bad guys" just don't want to deal with someone who might shoot them, even if they have a firearm of their own. If you pull a muzzle loader, it may not have the initial deterrent effect. Been a while since I read up on it, so I don't really remember where I was reading the stats.

Chuck Ellis
08-23-2017, 10:07 AM
I don't know for sure the validity of this statement as I'm not a gun owner nor have any desire to ever be one, but heard or read somewhere that black powder firearms don't require the same registration or licensing as the modern firearms.

Wade Lippman
08-23-2017, 10:19 AM
One difference is written right on the cans of powder.

On the can of black powder: DANGER-EXPLOSIVE

On the can of smokeless power: DANGER-HIGHLY FLAMMABLE.

Black powder is an explosive being used as a propellant. Smokeless powder IS a propellant. Black powder can develop extremely high pressures but doesn't transfer the energy to the projectile well. Lots of pressure- when the projectile is stopped and just beginning to move.



Isn't smokeless powder nitrocellulose, and isn't nitrocellulose considered a "higher" explosive than black powder? Do they add something to it to slow down the burn rate?

Rich Engelhardt
08-23-2017, 5:10 PM
But what I don't get is, how are they so "underpowered". What makes them so different.
They aren't. Somebody is just talking smack.

A .36 cal Navy is roughly the same as a .38 special - firing a target load (140 grain wadcutter) @ ~ 750 fps.
A .44 cal Colt Army shoots a very respectable - 215 grain bullet, over 40 grains of powder @ 870 fps - for a kinetic energy of 380 foot pounds.
For comparison - a .45acp (Colt 1911) is a 230 grain bullet @ 850 fps for a KE of 369 foot pounds.

The old Black Powder 1860 .44 Army has more "power" than the venerable Colt .45 auto.

The .36 cal Navy was/is no slouch either. It's roughly the same as a .38 S&W (not the same as a .38 special). The .38 S&W was the round of choice for nearly every large city police force for decades - - before it was replaced by the .38 special.

Smokeless can get you more velocity & more power - but - whether more velocity or more power somehow equates with more lethal is open to debate.
I for one would not feel underarmed with a .36 or .44 black powder.
Wild Bill Hickok didn't either. The Navy (two of them) was his go to gun.

Having said that - - my 1851 Navy has several broken parts that I never got around to fixing & I doubt if I ever will. It's a nice display piece.

Jerry Bruette
08-23-2017, 5:56 PM
Isn't smokeless powder nitrocellulose, and isn't nitrocellulose considered a "higher" explosive than black powder? Do they add something to it to slow down the burn rate?

Sorta but not really. Black powder explodes and nitrocellulose burns at a fast rate. But there are ways to control the burn rate of smokeless powder. It could be the shape and size of the granules and there are ways to control the surface area of the granules to control the burn rate.

Not all smokeless powder is made up of just nitrocellulose either. There are single base powders and double base powders. Double base powders have some nitroglycerine in them. Both single and double base powders have other ingredients added to help control burning rates.

Black powder is a physical mixture and the "rate of burn" is controlled by the size of the granules hence the grades F, FF, FFF, FFFF.

Whether it's smokeless powder or black powder if either are ignited in a closed container without any type of pressure relief, i.e. an open ended barrel, the results would be an catastrophic failure of the container. And I suppose that could be considered an explosion.

Brent Cutshall
08-23-2017, 9:21 PM
I don't know for sure the validity of this statement as I'm not a gun owner nor have any desire to ever be one, but heard or read somewhere that black powder firearms don't require the same registration or licensing as the modern firearms.
Yes, that's another reason why I like them.

Bert Kemp
08-23-2017, 10:41 PM
Point to remember. Just because theres no back ground check or registration to own one. Its still Illegal in most places to own one if your a felon.If you can't legally own a regular hand gun you most likely can't have a black powder revolver either. There are a few exceptions.

Rich Engelhardt
08-24-2017, 8:10 AM
There's no federal prohibition against a felon owning or being in possession of a black powder arm.
The BATFE treats them as a non-gun.

That does not mean there are no state or local laws that prohibit it.

Brent Cutshall
08-24-2017, 12:19 PM
I'm not a felon, so that ain't a problem anyway. I think I'll still get a BP pistol along with a modern one. Heck, I'm a Neander anyway. I've got a shop full of antique tools, why not an antique gun. An 1860 .44 Army Colt was a horse pistol(they occasionally had to aim for the horse too bring someone down) and if it'll get a horse, I wouldn't want to get shot by it. But, like I said, I'll get a more modern pistol too. Thanks again everybody!

Mel Fulks
08-24-2017, 1:20 PM
I've heard that the black powder was so slow that some could avoid being hit by simply side stepping after opponent pulled trigger. But I think the Code Duello calls that unsportsmanlike conduct.

Rich Engelhardt
08-24-2017, 2:31 PM
I'm not a felon, so that ain't a problem anywayIt does however - give you more options - such as buying online & mail order- as long as it's black powder & there's no local laws against it.
Cabela's has a great selection of BP revolvers & the price is decent.

For modern - no mail order but online can be shipped to a local FFL (Federal Firearm Licence) holder (gun store). Most charge around $25 to handle the transfer.

BTW - -what you said up above about the horse.
Yes, the .36 was effective against men, but, out on the range, the .44 was more effective against a horse.

Bert Kemp
08-24-2017, 3:01 PM
if you believe that I'll let you try.I'll put you out at 100 yards, when you see the flash side step problem is you will already be hit and down.:rolleyes::D

I've heard that the black powder was so slow that some could avoid being hit by simply side stepping after opponent pulled trigger. But I think the Code Duello calls that unsportsmanlike conduct.

Keith Outten
08-24-2017, 3:35 PM
Bert,

I own a Hopkins and Allen 45 caliber under hammer pistol. I won't bet on it but I expect even an old man could step aside quick enough to avoid the bullet from 50 yards. You can literally see the bullet leave the barrel and watch it along its path using 25 grains. I also have a 50 caliber Hawkins rifle, that's a whole different story :) My problem is that even with a loading block I'm so slow reloading neither gun is suitable for anything but target shooting :)

I solved the problem though, a few months ago I purchased a new Henry Big Boy 44 magnum rifle.

julian abram
08-24-2017, 4:37 PM
No recommendation on black powder, but if you decide to look at modern handguns in revolvers a S&W 686 or in semi-autos a Glock 19 would be a good starting point.

Mel Fulks
08-24-2017, 7:06 PM
I hear you,Bert. But that's what some of the old accounts say. Perhaps the modern stuff is faster, I don't think there is any demand among enthusiasts for BAD authenticity.

Bert Kemp
08-24-2017, 9:55 PM
I'm just sayin that many muzzle loaders get off at 800 fps or more that gives you about 1/3rd of a second to move
Bert,

I own a Hopkins and Allen 45 caliber under hammer pistol. I won't bet on it but I expect even an old man could step aside quick enough to avoid the bullet from 50 yards. You can literally see the bullet leave the barrel and watch it along its path using 25 grains. I also have a 50 caliber Hawkins rifle, that's a whole different story :) My problem is that even with a loading block I'm so slow reloading neither gun is suitable for anything but target shooting :)

I solved the problem though, a few months ago I purchased a new Henry Big Boy 44 magnum rifle.

Rich Engelhardt
08-27-2017, 7:07 AM
I'm just sayin that many muzzle loaders get off at 800 fps or more that gives you about 1/3rd of a second to moveAbout 800 fps is the same velocity as the 158 grain, .38 special & the 230 grain .45 acp - both modern smokless rounds.

The "stepping aside" mentioned above refers to the locktime of - a flintlock & standing sideways to a shooter was the accepted way of dueling.
Flintlocks have a very slow lock time compared to a modern center fire or rimfire cartridge.

A percussion cap is also magnitudes faster than a flintlock.

Mike Henderson
08-27-2017, 2:07 PM
No recommendation on black powder, but if you decide to look at modern handguns in revolvers a S&W 686 or in semi-autos a Glock 19 would be a good starting point.

This is off subject, but for those who like revolvers, my question is why do you favor them over the semi-automatics?

Mike

daryl moses
08-27-2017, 3:23 PM
This is off subject, but for those who like revolvers, my question is why do you favor them over the semi-automatics?

Mike
A revolver doesn't leave any evidence behind. ;)

Jerry Bruette
08-27-2017, 4:33 PM
This is off subject, but for those who like revolvers, my question is why do you favor them over the semi-automatics?

Mike

Certain rounds aren't normally chambered in semi-autos. .357 magnum and maximum, .44 magnum, .41 magnum. Usually anything with a rim isn't chambered in a semi-auto because of the stacking in the magazine.

Another reason would be that you can shoot a revolver in single pull or double pull mode. Single pull would be when you pull the hammer back,"cocking", the firearm. This reduces the amount of trigger pull required to discharge the arm. If you're shooting in double pull the squeezing of the trigger retracts the hammer and releases it, but it takes much more force because you're using the trigger to "cock" the firearm.

Jerry Bruette
08-27-2017, 4:36 PM
No recommendation on black powder, but if you decide to look at modern handguns in revolvers a S&W 686 or in semi-autos a Glock 19 would be a good starting point.

Had a S&W 686 with a 8 3/8 inch barrel, very nice shooting gun. Sold it to a family member and I've regretted it ever since.

Scott Donley
08-27-2017, 5:12 PM
The real problem with BP guns, is having to clean them with soap and water and not get the wood wet, very messy. :)

Tom Stenzel
08-28-2017, 1:21 AM
Reading over the replies a couple of things come to mind.

I was trying to point out why blackpowder won't achieve what smokeless powder can. That doesn't mean something is 'under powered'. When I mentioned the humidity test earlier the gun used was a Ruger Old Army. The writer would get routinely get over 1000 fps out of it. That's not slow. I have one, it's a wonderful weapon. If I didn't have anything else and was hungry I'd go deer hunting with it.

For accuracy even with my shaky hands I can hit a pie plate at 50 yards every time. My rickety shot out M1 carbine isn't all that much better!

There was an article in American Rifleman years ago about ammo in magnum rifles with box magazines. Sometimes when the gun is fired the recoil will cause the rounds in the magazine to get a flattened tip. American Rifleman tested ammo with various flattened tips to see how much accuracy was lost. Turns out there was very little lost. Then they tried and put marks and damage on the trailing edge of the bullet. Then they went everywhere.

So why am I recounting this? When you put the ball in a muzzleloader the instructions are to always put the casting mark (sprue) upward. I think you know where this is going.

To make operating the ram easier I got the bright idea to load my revolver with the sprue downward into the powder charge. After shooting all six rounds at the target, I had ONE hole. In the paper. Nothing in the rings. I wondered what the heck happened. It was years later when I read that article and found why my bullets flew willy-nilly. Consider yourself warned.

With a single shot rifle or pistol make sure the ball is seated right on the powder. If it isn't you no longer have a gun. You now have a pipe bomb. The gun can and will come unglued on you. Before you shoot a muzzle loader make sure you read ALL the instructions and safety info. We want you to come back and show us the fancy wood stock or grips you made.

Ok, I had to make this relevant to wood working somehow.

-Tom

Rich Engelhardt
08-28-2017, 3:51 AM
@ Tom - I, for one, didn't take anything you said as meaning the BP guns are under powered. Matter of fact, I think you did a good job of explaining a lot of things about BP.

@ Mike, a revolver is - - very broad brush here - - more reliable than a semi auto. If a round in a revolver fails to fire, for whatever reason, you just squeeze the trigger again. With a semi auto, you have to go through a "tap, rack, bang" drill - tap or rap the magazine to make sure it's all the way in, rack the slide to both clear the unfired round and chamber a fresh round, then squeeze the trigger.
On the flip side of this issue though, generally a semi auto is faster and easier to clear of a malfunction than a revolver. If/when a revolver gets tied up, it takes some time at a workbench to clear it and make it functional again.

This is just my opinion, but, in general I believe a stock revolver is far more accurate than a stock semi auto. For a revolver to even function, it has to me machined to much tighter specifications. Each chamber has to be pretty much in perfect alignment with the bore, or, the gun will batter itself to death by the bullets always hitting the side of the forcing cone.
Also - the sights don't constantly move - in conjunction with the action of the slide moving.

There's thousands of exceptions to my opinion......I'm just saying that if you took 1000 Smith and Wesson model 10 .38 specials & 1000 Glock model 17's - both extremely popular police pistols, the revolvers would shoot better and tighter groups.
So don't read more into what I said than that. And - there's a fair number of semi auto's that don't have their sights on the slide....

Also - to go along with what Daryl said - if you reload/handload, with a revolver you don't have to chase all over the place to collect your fired brass.
Also - to go along with what Jerry said - a revolver doesn't depend on the ammunition used to make it function. You can mix different power levels and different bullet types in the cylinder. In snake and bear country for instance, you can load shot shells for snakes & a heavy solid or hollow point for bear.

michael langman
08-28-2017, 10:37 AM
Mike, Another point about revolvers is, alot of us grew up with revolvers and that is what we are used to. The barrel of the revolver sits up higher in the hand then a semi-auto pistol. A semi auto is naturally pointing in the hand then a revolver, but I still find the revolver more accurate to shoot for myself.
With e revolver you can usually see if a round is chambered and ready to be fired. In a semi auto not as evident. Therefore you could leave an empty round in the revolver and feel much safer, though an accidental fire is usually unlikely in a revolver.
Semi auto can seem more complicated to some people. And the revolver being more simple in operation is the best gun in some situations for a lot of people.

In regards to black powder guns and accuracy, and power: I bought a Gonic Arms 50 caliber rifle from a fellow toolmaker that had a business making them. He bought his barrels undersize, and sized the bore to an exact size to be used with his conical lead bullets.
The sized barrels improved accuracy, and consistant pressures under fire that produced consistant stopping power, enough to drop a rhinoceros with one shot of a 465 Grain bullet at 1800 fps. The accuracy at 100 yards is unbelievable.

Mike Henderson
08-28-2017, 2:11 PM
Thanks to everyone for the comments on revolvers. I grew up on a farm and only used long guns. My first real experience with a handgun was in the army with the 1911A1 45 caliber and I guess I imprinted on semi automatics. Never had a lot of experience with revolvers - probably less than 100 rounds total.

Mike