Firmer Chisels

[ken hatch]

Modern makers of firmer chisels are almost extinct. While they can be found used on eBay it's such a crap shoot I'd like to find a modern maker.

Cut to the chase, while googling firmer chisels today one of the hits was Amazon for Narex firmer chisels and I followed the link. Sure nuff the link lead to Narex firmer chisels. They looked like firmer chisels, the handle didn't look as 'clunky' as other Narex chisels and a set of four: 6mm, 12mm, 20mm, and 26mm were less than $50 USD delivered to my door today. I paid almost that much for a 1/2" Weatherby firmer off eBay the other day. First impression is good, the chisels have nice balance, the backs, of at least the 26mm, are very slightly concave. Less than 3 minutes on the 400 Atomic and it was flat. The bevel and back honed up quickly on the med India and Hard Black Ark developing a nice burr quickly and got a beautiful 'polish' on one of the hard JNAT's. I'm not one for 'testing" sharpness...If it feels sharp and looks sharp it is sharp but I have a new bald spot on my left arm.

They may be keepers,

ken

[bridger berdel]

Let us know how you like 'em in the cut.....

[Patrick Chase]

Modern makers of firmer chisels are almost extinct. While they can be found used on eBay it's such a crap shoot I'd like to find a modern maker.

Cut to the chase, while googling firmer chisels today one of the hits was Amazon for Narex firmer chisels and I followed the link. Sure nuff the link lead to Narex firmer chisels. They looked like firmer chisels, the handle didn't look as 'clunky' as other Narex chisels and a set of four: 6mm, 12mm, 20mm, and 26mm were less than $50 USD delivered to my door today.

How are they for flatness?

One reason Narex chisels are inexpensive is because they aren't post-machined after hardening. Narex uses a single-cycle hardening/tempering process (Austempering) that produces relatively low distortion, but even so their chisels aren't as flat as some others that are post-machined. My set of Narex paring chisels were particularly unpleasant to set up, though they work terrifically now.

[Patrick Chase]

One other option for "firmer" chisels are the Hirsch ones that Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=46403&cat=1,41504)sells. I've put "firmer" in quotes because they're partially bevelled, which some might deem "un-firmer-like".

Robert Sorby still makes a set of registered (flat-sided) firmer chisels IIRC.

[Stewie Simpson]

The term "Registered" Chisel has its roots in the fact that up until modern times, unique handle designs were often "registered" with the British government for copyright protection. The correct term for the Sorby "Registered" chisel is a firmer chisel, or it could be called a heavy firmer. The longer version of these chisels are commonly known as framing chisels since there primary applications is in the timber framing trade.

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/sorby_framing.htm

[ken hatch]

Let us know how you like 'em in the cut.....

Bridger,

Will do. Prepped the 26mm last night, The back was very slightly concave so it went quickly, well less than 3-4 minutes on a 400 Atomia followed by a med India and a Hard Black Ark. It felt a little "sticky" on the stone, I'm not sure if it is the steel or the protective coating. I expect the protective coating. I skipped the 400 Atomia on the bevel but added a hard JNAT to polish and pulled the burr on a strop. It looks and feels very sharp.

ken

[ken hatch]

How are they for flatness?

One reason Narex chisels are inexpensive is because they aren't post-machined after hardening. Narex uses a single-cycle hardening/tempering process (Austempering) that produces relatively low distortion, but even so their chisels aren't as flat as some others that are post-machined. My set of Narex paring chisels were particularly unpleasant to set up, though they work terrifically now.


Patrick,

The one I worked on last night was slightly concave, flatting went very quickly.

ken

[Pat Barry]

I looked at the Narex 'firmer' chisels - they look nice, but don't see a lot of difference as compared to their bench chisels except for the handle. What characteristics make a chisel a 'firmer' chisel? What is the purpose of a 'firmer' chisel as compared to say, a bench chisel.

[ken hatch]

I looked at the Narex 'firmer' chisels - they look nice, but don't see a lot of difference as compared to their bench chisels except for the handle. What characteristics make a chisel a 'firmer' chisel? What is the purpose of a 'firmer' chisel as compared to say, a bench chisel.

Pat,

No side bevel, a flat side on the blade. There are several uses for firmer type chisels. With a thick heavy blade they are used for timber framing. The ones I'm interested in have a longer thin blade and are good for paring. The Narex blades are shorter than I would like but at their price point are worth a try.

The difference in the handle vs. the Narex bench chisel's was one of the reasons I ordered a set. While I'm sure I'm being unfair I can't get pass the bench chisel's handle.

ken

[Pat Barry]

Pat,

No side bevel, a flat side on the blade. There are several uses for firmer type chisels. With a thick heavy blade they are used for timber framing. The ones I'm interested in have a longer thin blade and are good for paring. The Narex blades are shorter than I would like but at their price point are worth a try.

The difference in the handle vs. the Narex bench chisel's was one of the reasons I ordered a set. While I'm sure I'm being unfair I can't get pass the bench chisel's handle.

ken
Thanks for clarifying Ken. Those would probably work better than the bevel edge chisel for chopping mortices ala Paul Sellars method also.

[Mike Brady]

What operations / situations do you do that are best performed by firmer chisels? I have a number of vintage firmer chisels in excellent condition, but I seldom reach for them instead of a bench chisel or a mortise chisel.

[Jim Koepke]

One old anecdote about firmer chisels was their name came from being able to take a firmer blow from a mallet.

jtk

[Chuck Nickerson]

What makes a chisel a firmer chisel?

[Mel Fulks]

Oxford dictionary dates firmer to 1823. Anglicized French "formoir", defines as broad thin chisels used to clean up sides of big mortises in such as building framing. DOES NOT say can't be used for other stuff.

[lowell holmes]

I have both bevel edge and firmer chisels.
At one time I thought the firmer chisels were mortise chisels.

I also have a 1/2" and 3/8" Ray Iles "Pig Sticker" mortise chisels.
When you hold one, you know you have a chisel in your hand.

[Patrick Chase]

The difference in the handle vs. the Narex bench chisel's was one of the reasons I ordered a set. While I'm sure I'm being unfair I can't get pass the bench chisel's handle.


You can get the Narex bench chisels with the same handle as the firmers. See http://www.narextools.cz/en/bevel-edge-chisel-premium-8116. I bought a set of 4 on Amazon a while back as a gift for somebody.

[Nathan Johnson]

You can get the Narex bench chisels with the same handle as the firmers. See http://www.narextools.cz/en/bevel-edge-chisel-premium-8116. I bought a set of 4 on Amazon a while back as a gift for somebody.

This is the set I ordered also, specifically because I thought the handles were so much better looking.
I'm enjoying them so far.

[Patrick Chase]

This is the set I ordered also, specifically because I thought the handles were so much better looking.
I'm enjoying them so far.

FWIW you can find details in Narex's catalog (http://www.narextools.cz/download.php?group=stranky3_soubory&id=20). The short version is that the handles on the ones you have are Hornwood, while the "lower-end" hooped ones are stained Beech.

[Danny Buie]

If you want a set of eight Sorby firmer chisels I just posted a set for sale in the classifieds.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?257058-Set-of-eight-Sorby-Registered-heavy-duty-firmer-chisels-150-00-Auburn-Al

[Frederick Skelly]

If you want a set of eight Sorby firmer chisels I just posted a set for sale in the classifieds.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?257058-Set-of-eight-Sorby-Registered-heavy-duty-firmer-chisels-150-00-Auburn-Al

Bet somebody snaps those up pretty quick!

[Mike Brady]

Since people want to own firmer chisels, but don't know why; I'll take a stab: How about for stopped grooves, rabbits and dados?

[Warren Mickley]

The term firmer chisel is an old name for what we now call a bench chisel. The term "bench chisel" shows up at the beginning of the twentieth century.

In the 18th century firmer chisels were usually tang chisels and not bevelled. They also tended to be tapered in thickness (thinner at the bevel) and slightly tapered in width (wider at the bevel). The firmer chisels in the Seaton chest (over 30 of them) are considerably lighter than chisels available today and have no rings and no ferrules. Nicholson (1812) says carpenters used firmer chisels and socket chisels, and that joiners used firmer chisels, mortise chisels and paring chisels. Nicholson himself had been a journeyman cabinetmaker in the 18th century.

In the 19 century firmer chisels began having bevelled edges and ferrules. Late in the 19th century one could buy tang firmer chisels, socket firmer chisels and bevelled edge firmer chisels of different combinations and lengths.

I used bevelled edge chisels for decades, but now prefer chisels without bevels. It is nice if they are thin and delicate.

[Wallace Brooks]

Barr Quarton makes excellent, firm framing chisels. https://barrtools.com/product/framing-chisel-1-12/

[Mel Fulks]

Warren, I doubt you have posted any faulty info. Am surprised if those chisels mentioned in the early books were called "firmer". Do you think the use of "firmer" is a modern editing for clarity ,or indeed precedes the Oxford ED date of 1823 ?
Thanks

[ken hatch]

The term firmer chisel is an old name for what we now call a bench chisel. The term "bench chisel" shows up at the beginning of the twentieth century.

In the 18th century firmer chisels were usually tang chisels and not bevelled. They also tended to be tapered in thickness (thinner at the bevel) and slightly tapered in width (wider at the bevel). The firmer chisels in the Seaton chest (over 30 of them) are considerably lighter than chisels available today and have no rings and no ferrules. Nicholson (1812) says carpenters used firmer chisels and socket chisels, and that joiners used firmer chisels, mortise chisels and paring chisels. Nicholson himself had been a journeyman cabinetmaker in the 18th century.

In the 19 century firmer chisels began having bevelled edges and ferrules. Late in the 19th century one could buy tang firmer chisels, socket firmer chisels and bevelled edge firmer chisels of different combinations and lengths.

I used bevelled edge chisels for decades, but now prefer chisels without bevels. It is nice if they are thin and delicate.

What Warren said.

ken

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, I doubt you have posted any faulty info. Am surprised if those chisels mentioned in the early books were called "firmer". Do you think the use of "firmer" is a modern editing for clarity ,or indeed precedes the Oxford ED date of 1823 ?
Thanks

Moxon uses the term former chisel in 1678, but he was not a woodworker, so this is not terribly reliable. Quite a few 18th century authors use former in situations where they are obviously quoting Moxon.

Richard Neve says "firmer or former chisel", 1736 "Builder's Dictionary". Richard Washington Firmer in inventory, 1757. Croker says Former Chissel in 1764.

Firmer chisel in Seaton chest inventory 1796, Nicholson 1812, James Smith "Panorama of Science and Art", 1815.

Except for the Washington inventory, these are from original, not edited documents.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks,Warren. I need to do a new reading of the methods and terms of OED . I think there is something there about about the dates not always being the earliest but just the date of their example.

[Patrick Chase]

Moxon uses the term former chisel in 1678, but he was not a woodworker, so this is not terribly reliable. Quite a few 18th century authors use former in situations where they are obviously quoting Moxon.

Moxon's usage is roughly consistent with the etymology (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/firmer%20chisel).



Richard Neve says "firmer or former chisel", 1736 "Builder's Dictionary". Richard Washington Firmer in inventory, 1757. Croker says Former Chissel in 1764.

Firmer chisel in Seaton chest inventory 1796, Nicholson 1812, James Smith "Panorama of Science and Art", 1815.

Except for the Washington inventory, these are from original, not edited documents.

I've seen plenty of cases where the "first known use" in Dictionary etymologies is off (almost invariable late), and that's particularly true for domain-specific terminology as here.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks,Warren. I need to do a new reading of the methods and terms of OED . I think there is something there about about the dates not always being the earliest but just the date of their example.

You have to bear in mind that many of the definitions in the OED are very old, and vastly predate automated search technology. The original "F" volume was published in 1900, and the entry in question may date from then. The degree of information access that we all take for granted now was inconceivable then.

It's therefore quite possible that the "first use date" in question was composed by somebody who simply didn't have access to the sources Warren cites.

[bridger berdel]

One old anecdote about firmer chisels was their name came from being able to take a firmer blow from a mallet.

jtk

Sabin Mroz, one of the "old guys" when I was a kid said he liked a socket firmer chisel because he could " sock it firmer".

[Patrick Chase]

One old anecdote about firmer chisels was their name came from being able to take a firmer blow from a mallet.

jtk

If the dictionary etymology is to be believed it derives from the French verb "former" ("to form") by way of the French "formoir" ("that which forms").

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Patrick. I was using " The Shorter OED " since my complete one is the the one that needs magnification....hard to see the print with all those molecules boogying around!

[Warren Mickley]

I think "the etymology" is wrong. The French fermoir is a tool with two bevels, deux biseaux. In the 17th and 18th centuries there was steel sandwiched between two pieces of iron, the way some axes are made. Fermoir means clasp in French, and Salivet (1798) explains that the steel is clasped between the iron pieces. Many French sources explain that a fermoir has two bevels, while a ciseau (chisel) has one bevel.

I asked Michel Auriou about this. He said "A fermoir is not a chisel!"

The dictionaries are often helpful on dating words, but they are not perfect.

[Patrick Chase]

I think "the etymology" is wrong. The French fermoir is a tool with two bevels, deux biseaux. In the 17th and 18th centuries there was steel sandwiched between two pieces of iron, the way some axes are made. Fermoir means clasp in French, and Salivet (1798) explains that the steel is clasped between the iron pieces. Many French sources explain that a fermoir has two bevels, while a ciseau (chisel) has one bevel.

I asked Michel Auriou about this. He said "A fermoir is not a chisel!"

The dictionaries are often helpful on dating words, but they are not perfect.

Note that the dictionary etymologies have it derived from former (to form) via formoire (that which forms), not fermoir. Note the o/e substitution. I agree that the latter etymology (via fermoir) is highly unlikely, and that dictionaries are imperfect.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,not perfect but the Oxford is quite a piece of work put together with the help of many loving volunteers of merit. The problems are the many origins. Here's an example of difficulty : algorithms and Al Gore Rythyms ARE DIFFERENT!!

[Stewie Simpson]

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0193_zpsmcdgjr5j.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0193_zpsmcdgjr5j.jpg.html)

Page 17; 1959 William Marples & Sons Catalogue. https://archive.org/stream/Marples1959CatalogueAndPriceList/Marples%201959%20Catalogue%20and%20Price%20List%20 142%20MB#page/n0/mode/2up

[Patrick Chase]

Yeah,not perfect but the Oxford is quite a piece of work put together with the help of many loving volunteers of merit. The problems are the many origins. Here's an example of difficulty : algorithms and Al Gore Rythyms ARE DIFFERENT!!

I thought he invented algorithms and they were named in his honor?

PS - Yes, I realize that "Al Gore invented X" jokes are an anachronism in 2017.

[Mel Fulks]

"but seriously, folks...." It's more accurate than it is correct in that it makes old works make sense. Years ago I was reading the journal of the French Jesuit Charlevoix written in America. He mentioned an animal I did not recognize. When I looked it up OED said "mistakenly used by Charlevoix to describe ....(can't remember the animal now ,or forget the personal service!). And some of the computor searched definitions are ridiculous,saw one here not long ago .....the word was "disgruntled " and part of the nutty answer was "the opposite of gruntled". They mean the SAME thing...

[Warren Mickley]

Note that the dictionary etymologies have it derived from former (to form) via formoire (that which forms), not fermoir. Note the o/e substitution. I agree that the latter etymology (via fermoir) is highly unlikely, and that dictionaries are imperfect.

I was objecting to the Merriam Webster etymology you linked to in your 10:32 post last night. That etymology shows firmer chisel from fermoir, from formoir, from former, forme. The trouble with that sequence is that a firmer chisel is not a fermoir, and etymologies in French dictionaries show that fermoir derives from fermer (to close, not to form).

Here is another reference from Neve 1736:
366231

The impression I get is that the term was in widespread use, maybe even long time use, without having been very much in print. Etymologies are quite speculative in such cases.

[Stewie Simpson]

The definition of firmer is more solid, or more unyielding when pressed; comparatively solid, hard, stiff, or rigid: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/firmer

[Patrick Chase]

I was objecting to the Merriam Webster etymology you linked to in your 10:32 post last night. That etymology shows firmer chisel from fermoir, from formoir, from former, forme. The trouble with that sequence is that a firmer chisel is not a fermoir, and etymologies in French dictionaries show that fermoir derives from fermer (to close, not to form).

Here is another reference from Neve 1736:
366231

The impression I get is that the term was in widespread use, maybe even long time use, without having been very much in print. Etymologies are quite speculative in such cases.

Yeah, I linked M-W because OED is paywalled. You're right that that the presence of fermoir in the etymology looks quite suspect. I've lived in France and been fluent in French, and that one strikes me as off too.

Interestingly sources you've cited (Moxon and Neve) both imply that it did derive from the French Former (to form), so it appears that there's some agreement on that point. It's the intervening steps (formier/fermier) that look murky.

As you say etymologies are never precise, both due to unavailability of source material and because actual usage is seldom precise or uniform. Etymologies are necessarily attempts to apply structure to human speech patterns that are anything but.

[Patrick Chase]

The definition of firmer is more solid, or more unyielding when pressed; comparatively solid, hard, stiff, or rigid: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/firmer

Language isn't orderly in the way you imply here. The fact that a term has a particular meaning in one context doesn't say anything about its meaning or derivation in another.

The one thing that every source cited so far seems to agree on is that the term "firmer" as applied to a chisel derives from the French "former" (to form), not from the existing English adverb that you cite. The fact that it happens to be spelled the same is irrelevant. The Englishfolk who borrowed the French term probably just mapped it to a word they already knew even though the meaning was inconsistent. That happens all the time.

[steven c newman]

Sooooo, Boys and Girls.....what exactly does one really DO with a firmer chisel?

I have Mortise chisels ( but no "Pig Stickers" Am I deprived?)

I have quite a few bevel edged chisels

And..I have a few sizes of FIRMER chisels....( 3/8" Butcher/Buck Brothers, up to a couple 1-1/2" )

Sooo, how does one actually USE the firmer chisel?

( could not care less about the language part....)

[Warren Mickley]

It sounds like a lot of your chisels are firmers, Steven.
366240

[Patrick Chase]

( could not care less about the language part....)

The thing with the language is that it's inextricably tied up with the history of woodworking. Only by understanding one can you pry open the other. I think that Warren is as knowledgable as he is in large part because he cares about and pays such close attention to the textual history.

[Frederick Skelly]

Geez. Sounds like we need a Word Origin Forum now. I'm with Steven. I'd rather hear more about what Firmer Chisels are used for than go to English class. :D :D :D

And fortunately, Warren is probably exactly the right guy to teach us.

[steven c newman]

Sooo, IF I wanted to clear this dado with a chisel...
366246
Which chisel to use?

[Patrick Chase]

Geez. Sounds like we need a Word Origin Forum now. I'm with Steven. I'd rather hear more about what Firmer Chisels are used for than go to English class. :D :D :D

And fortunately, Warren is probably exactly the right guy to teach us.

Precisely because he took the time to understand the history and origins :-)

I'm not saying everybody should be interested, just that there's a valid reason why some subset of folks might want to go down this path.

[Jim Koepke]

I have Mortise chisels ( but no "Pig Stickers" Am I deprived?)

Yes, you may be eligible for a government grant.

jtk

[ken hatch]

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0192_zpsi99lkgin.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0193_zpsmcdgjr5j.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0193_zpsmcdgjr5j.jpg.html)

Page 17; 1959 William Marples & Sons Catalogue. https://archive.org/stream/Marples1959CatalogueAndPriceList/Marples%201959%20Catalogue%20and%20Price%20List%20 142%20MB#page/n0/mode/2up

Stewie,

A beautiful set of chisels, priceless in today's market.

ken

[Pat Barry]

Sooo, IF I wanted to clear this dado with a chisel...
366246
Which chisel to use?
I'd recommend another cut down the middle before you go at it with a chisel. Then work from both sides toward the middle.

[Warren Mickley]

For a dado like Steven shows, I would use a similar technique to what Nicholson recommended 200 years ago. Nicholson recommends laying things out so the high area between the dados is somewhat narrower than the width of the chisel, so possibly using an extra narrow dado down the middle as Pat suggests, so that the chisel is cutting the whole width of the strip that is left. I would probably take most of the waste away on the first pass, rather brutally, Then almost everything else on a second more careful pass. Finish up with a rabbet plane if needed.

Nicholson recommends a "firmer chisel", but except for having no side bevels, his firmer was almost certainly lighter than today's average bench chisel. It is much tapered in thickness and very slightly in width. Tapered octagonal handle with a tang, with no ferrule or ring. I gradually changed to this style of chisel over the last 8 years after decades of using bevel edged chisels. Without side bevels, I think it is slightly easier to sharpen freehand (more stable) and maybe easier to cut riding the bevel also. If I am making a handle for a chisel that has seen considerable use, I make a longer handle to achieve an optimum length (I like 11 inches).

P. S. It is tough to read stuff like Nicholson. It is easy to read along imagining he is doing things just like your own technique and miss subtle differences. Sometimes I read the post of someone who has read the old text, but has missed a few interesting details in a paragraph that they obviously have read.

[steven c newman]

Used a 12mm Japanese Mortise Chisel to remove most of the waste.....then a bevel edged chisel to pare the dado flat. Didn't want to take a chance on a "middle" saw cut.....as it might have been at a different depth? Saw cuts were done on a Langdon 75 Mitre Box, using depth stops...