It's been a year since

[Terry Starch]

Hey everyone. So in 2010 I asked what table saw I should buy. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?152423-Help-with-New-Tablesaw-purchase&p=1559594

Lots of people said Saw Stop. I bought a Jet table saw instead. Well I wanted to let everyone know that last year I cut my left index finger off and part of my thumb. I sold the Jet tablesaw cheap and bought a Saw Stop. I wish i would of before.....

[Ben Rivel]

Dang... Sorry that you had to go through that. Hope you can still enjoy woodworking though and with confidence knowing that youre a bit safer with the SawStop. Which one did you end up going with and how are you liking it so far versus the Jet?

[John Lanciani]

Serious question; was the blade guard installed on the saw at the time of the accident? If not, would it have prevented the accident if it had been?

[Ted Reischl]

Like everyone else I am sorry to hear that you lost a finger and part of your thumb.

Not everyone is going to rush out and buy a SS and sell their old table saw off for cheap. There is a small issue with selling something you believe to be dangerous to someone else but that is another subject altogether.

Since very few if any are going to sell their old saws it would be beneficial if you shared the experience and what caused it.

I have some questions:

Are you left handed? If not, what was your left hand doing by the blade?

Did the saw kickback or did you just run your digits through the blade because you were distracted?

Were you using a push block of any sort? If so, describe it for us?

The reason I ask all this is because I see LOTS of folks on YouTube cutting on a TS that are asking for trouble. My pet peeve is when they are pushing a board through with their right thumb hooked on the end and the left hand is pushing the cutoff past the blade. Someone new to TS would think that is acceptable. It isn't as we all know.

I use a big honking push lock that has a handle on it like a plane. It is about 12 inches long, 1.5 wide and has a heel that catches the end of the board. I never, ever cut anything without it. The height is such that if the board goes flying out from under it my hand is still well above a fully extended blade. Being 12 inches long also allows me to keep downward pressure towards the front which prevents the classic "riding up" onto the blade problem.

Why guys think that a push block is too much trouble or makes them a sissy is beyond me.....

I think the biggest problem is anyone can buy a table saw, then go online and see some self styled "experts" doing things that are just plain dangerous and think it is the right way to cut. My older brother got into wood working late in life. He asked me to stop by and help him with a project. You see this coming donchya? No pushstick, no nothing. We had quite the discussion because since I was his YOUNGER brother how could I possibly know more than the experts on line? I finally told him there was no way I was going to stand in his shop and watch him cut his fingers off and bleed all over me on the way to the ER.

Please, share the experience so everyone else can learn from it.

[Scott A Bernstein]

Oh man.... So sorry to hear this. But thank you so much for sharing your experience - a very good lesson for us all. One day the patents will run out and hopefully table saws with an "emergency brake" will be more common and less expensive... but until then I guess SawStop will remain the only option.

I am new to woodworking myself, having "dabbled" for many years before. I finally decided to turn my garage into a woodshop about 18 months ago and the first big purchase was a 52" sawstop PCS. It was very expensive, but I looked at it as an insurance policy. I did a lot of reading, got a lot of advice, watched a lot of on-line videos (some better than others), but still lacked experience using large table saws. That's why I bought the sawstop - kind of a last line of defense. Without my hands I couldn't do my day job, so I figured it was worth it. I have yet to set off the brake with anything other than a metal ruler (oops!), but I sure have some extra peace-of-mind when using it. I do not use the blade guard since I do so many dados and rabbets on the saw. I do use the Jessen table saw anti-kickback roller guides mounted on the fence, the riving knife of course, push sticks/push blocks, feather boards, and always stand out of the path of potential flying boards. So far, so good.

SB

[Nick Shattuck]

I think the most dangerous way to use a table saw is to use it for repetitive cuts. I know if I'm cutting a lot of pieces to the same size, the repetitive action can cause me to lose concentration ever so slightly, enough to send chills down my spine when I snap back into it. I think it's just human nature and any typical person falls prey to inattention when doing a repetitive task. It's best to recognize this and try to fight against it. So now, for example, if I need to rips 8 boards to the same width, I'll rip 2 or 3 and then go do another task and come back and do a few more, rinse & repeat. It's definitely not the most efficient way, but it's not bad and I feel a whole lot safer doing it this way.

[michael langman]

I'm very sorry to read this.I hope you adjust well to your new situation.

[Frederick Skelly]

I think the most dangerous way to use a table saw is to use it for repetitive cuts. I know if I'm cutting a lot of pieces to the same size, the repetitive action can cause me to lose concentration ever so slightly, enough to send chills down my spine when I snap back into it.

Nick, you are soooo right. Last evening I was learning to use a kerfmaker knockoff I made and found myself doing it. Scared the crap outta me. I'm going to try again now, but if the same zoning-out happens, I think I'll be done with making dados that way.

Terry, I'm sorry you got hurt. I appreciate you telling us your story as a reminder. And I applaud yyour courage in "getting back on the horse" - sawstop or no, it had to be extremely hard.

Fred

[Mark Bolton]

Details Details Details. Everyone will be asking for more details about what operation was being done, how it was setup, how it was being done, and so on. There is no doubt in any of these situations a blade that stops when it hits flesh would save the day, but the unfortunate reality is that the approach to the operation, and the circumstances surrounding the event, can tell a lot.

Major suck that you got hurt.

[Carroll Courtney]

I guess that having a SawStop help when using a TS but life still requires our full attention.---Carroll

[Terry Starch]

I never brought this up but here it goes. In 2011 I started having grand mal seizures. One time I woke on the floor in my woodshop with a really black eye, hurt ribs, and muscles really sore. Five years I went to Dr after Dr and so many medications. April 28, 2016 I had major brain surgery and had a section removed on my left side.
Well I cut my finger and almost my thumb off in July 2016. I was using the table saw and have no idea what happened. I still wonder about it....

[Nick Shattuck]

I'm sorry for your condition and wish you the best. I hope if your drive to do woodworking surpasses your concern of random blackouts/seizures and the absolute catastrophe that could be around powered woodworking equipment, please equip your shop with safeguards. A tablesaw can be replaced with a SawStop, but please try to look into deadman switches for the rest of your equipment. I think I'd probably avoid dangerous situations in your condition, but I'm not in your shoes and maybe it's a rare thing for you to blackout, but I think it would be smart to make your shop safe just incase you have an episode.

[Jim Andrew]

This thread really brings up the need for retired guys looking for a hobby to take a course in woodworking from your local high school or juco. I forget that other guys have not had a career in construction and woodworking, and have probably not done a lot of woodworking since their school days. Just stopped by FHKSU on Saturday, they have built a new building, and old Davis Hall is scheduled for demo. Looked at the new shop, it is tiny, and had a new sawstop tablesaw. So, I guess there is not a lot of demand for shop teachers. Now they call it applied science.

[David Eisenhauer]

Sorry for your troubles Terry. Maybe consider slowing down some and leaning more towards hand tools rather than power tools. You will still get there, perhaps just at a more relaxed pace. Something to consider.

[Ted Reischl]

Until you get your seizures under control you should not be in the shop. You have already injured yourself twice, once seriously. Shops are full of sharp corners, smashing your eye into one could be much worse than cutting off your finger. You could also crack your skull, break your neck, etc.

I am not saying you should quit woodworking, but you need to manage your situation first. Woodworking is not fun when you are getting injured.

[Ray Newman]

Ted Reischl: is spot on! best advice yet.

[Brian Henderson]

Until you get your seizures under control you should not be in the shop. You have already injured yourself twice, once seriously. Shops are full of sharp corners, smashing your eye into one could be much worse than cutting off your finger. You could also crack your skull, break your neck, etc.

I am not saying you should quit woodworking, but you need to manage your situation first. Woodworking is not fun when you are getting injured.

That's excellent advice. Just because someone wants to do something doesn't mean they necessarily should. One should only work with potentially dangerous tools if you can do it safely. This individual clearly cannot. People need to have self-control and unfortunately, gauging by a lot of people posting these accidents in this forum, they do not. The solution is not to buy a Saw Stop, the solution is to be responsible for yourself and take proper steps to make sure you can work safely. Honestly, a lot of this is starting to feel like Saw Stop is paying people to post horror stories to woodworking forums to get people to buy their products. Sorry, I would not be at all surprised.

[Ted Reischl]

....... Honestly, a lot of this is starting to feel like Saw Stop is paying people to post horror stories to woodworking forums to get people to buy their products. Sorry, I would not be at all surprised.

I have noticed that some marketing folks feel that scaring people is a good way to go. I very much doubt that anyone is paying folks to post this stuff. In this case, it is more like the guy convincing himself that he can now work in the shop safely, or maybe his better half......I looked up this grand mal seizure stuff, most states require that the license bureau be notified and quite a few want to see that the person is fit to drive. There are a lot of issues involved.

I can tell everyone this: if I had a seizure, my sweet, innocent, itty bitty wife would explain to me that I was no longer working in the shop or she would pound me to paste. Actually, she would probably just starve me, she is a great cook, and I look like it!

[Mike Henderson]

That's excellent advice. Just because someone wants to do something doesn't mean they necessarily should. One should only work with potentially dangerous tools if you can do it safely. This individual clearly cannot. People need to have self-control and unfortunately, gauging by a lot of people posting these accidents in this forum, they do not. The solution is not to buy a Saw Stop, the solution is to be responsible for yourself and take proper steps to make sure you can work safely. Honestly, a lot of this is starting to feel like Saw Stop is paying people to post horror stories to woodworking forums to get people to buy their products. Sorry, I would not be at all surprised.

The truth is that there are many serious table saw accidents every year. Some of those accidents get reported here, some do not.

SawStop has a good story - if you make a mistake on the table saw, it will back you up.

Mike

[Mark Bolton]

The truth is that there are many serious table saw accidents every year. Some of those accidents get reported here, some do not.

SawStop has a good story - if you make a mistake on the table saw, it will back you up.

Mike

No offense intended but does this mean we should start holding all power tools to a standard where a blind individual should be able to shove a board or pull a trigger and be saved without consequence? If so, the cost of woodworking on a hobby level will soon put any average Joe out of the hobby, and on the professional will will close the business down flat.

There are operations I use to do in my sleep that I no longer do due to my physical limitations. I now relegate those to the youger, more agile, guys. Maybe I should just forge ahead and sue

[Mike Henderson]

No offense intended but does this mean we should start holding all power tools to a standard where a blind individual should be able to shove a board or pull a trigger and be saved without consequence? If so, the cost of woodworking on a hobby level will soon put any average Joe out of the hobby, and on the professional will will close the business down flat.

There are operations I use to do in my sleep that I no longer do due to my physical limitations. I now relegate those to the youger, more agile, guys. Maybe I should just forge ahead and sue

I don't know how on earth you could get that from my posting.

Mike

[julian abram]

Geez Terry, so sorry to hear of your accident and the seizure episodes. With a history of seizures and blackouts you need to consider carefully your exposure to any stationary power tools as well as vehicle use. A few years ago I was an avid bowhunter, probably 90% of my bow hunting time was spent in tree stands. I experienced sudden deafness about 7 years ago along with periods of extreme vertigo. With unpredictable vertigo episodes, my tree climbing days were over, big life style change for me. My family was to important to take a 20' head dive out of a tree stand. Only my best wishes for your future endeavors.:)

[Scott McFarland]

Sorry for your troubles Terry. Maybe consider slowing down some and leaning more towards hand tools rather than power tools. You will still get there, perhaps just at a more relaxed pace. Something to consider.

Best piece of advice in this thread.

[Mike Henderson]

No one "earns" an injury. And everyone does something stupid in their life. To quote a famous philosopher "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I know I couldn't cast a stone, and I doubt of anyone else here could either.

Mike

[There are a number of times in my life that I wished I had something that would absolve me of doing something stupid.:)

And I'd prefer to receive absolution than to lose my fingers.]

[Peter Christensen]

Brian I agree with some of what you say and I'm not going to beat up on the OP as he has enough on his plate to deal with.

Think about this scenario. If this had been an individual's first seizure, or stroke, or heart attack, there were never any warning signs of a health issue, they were observing all the safe practices and the Saw Stop had saved their hand. Would they have still been stupid or smart for having the extra safety feature?

I've opted for the additional safety and have become more safe around the saw because of the better guard and riving knife that I never used on my older saw. You can call me stupid if you like. I won't be offended. ;)

[Jim Morgan]

Many woodworking accidents do result from stupidity. When I was much, much younger, trying to rip a thin strip without using a push-stick, and got the end of my finger split open by the table saw blade (fortunately, only that), I was being stupid. From that day until this, I have never tried to evade responsibility for my injury; I don't personally know any injured woodworker who has ever failed to take personal responsibility for whatever happened.

However, smug self-righteousness aside, everybody - everybody - is subject to distractions and lapses of attention. As a cognitive scientist who has analyzed hours and hours of eye-gaze data, I can affirm that this is true. An unexpected loud noise elicits a startle reflex, regardless of the firmest of intentions. Or a piece of wood with an odd, hidden grain pattern shatters midway through a cut. Accidents happen, even to those who believe they are prepared.

We all make personal assessments of the risks we may face. I am happy using my unisaw with suitable precautions, but it would never occur to me to criticize anyone who chose a SawStop for its extra level of protection.

[John Lanciani]

... they were observing all the safe practices and the Saw Stop had saved their hand... ;)


If people would actually observe all of the necessary safe practices there would be no need for SawStop. I personally have zero sympathy for anyone who takes the guard off of a tool and then proceeds to get hurt. Like Brian I feel like people earned whatever they got.

[John Sincerbeaux]

If people would actually observe all of the necessary safe practices there would be no need for SawStop. I personally have zero sympathy for anyone who takes the guard off of a tool and then proceeds to get hurt. Like Brian I feel like people earned whatever they got.

John,
If people would actually observe all the necessary safe practices there would be no need for a "guard"! or riving knife, or Saw Stop.

[Brian Henderson]

John,
If people would actually observe all the necessary safe practices there would be no need for a "guard"! or riving knife, or Saw Stop.


Very true. But you've got a cult of Saw Stop that wants everyone to own them while not recognizing that if people were just responsible and careful in the first place, they wouldn't be necessary. I have nothing against Saw Stop, except for the very idiotic move to try to force the industry to buy their proprietary technology, but this cult-like mentality is just absurd.

[Jerry Wright]

...and if people were just careful there would be no need for guards on pulleys and belts, or need for car insurance....come on guys!

[Jim Morgan]

The OP did not say anything to that effect - wishing he had had a SawStop and thus might have avoided his injury is not blaming the saw that he did have. You are making that up.

[Nick Decker]

Now I'm in a cult? Whoa.

[Peter Christensen]

When do we vote for the new Grand Poobaa?

I suppose the upside is we will always have a secret handshake. ;)

[Jacob Mac]

Lot of vitriol aimed at a guy who permanently maimed himself. I remember this site being much friendlier.

[Harold Balzonia]

I don't see any vitriol aimed at the OP...

I sense a sort of disbelief, in general, that a gentleman with a history of grand mal seizures would choose woodworking with industrial tools as a hobby. I, too, think hand tools would be a much safer/better option...

and secondly, they are showing a dismay, in general, that more and more people have become complacent around dangerous machines (cars included) and are looking for technology to save them from themselves rather than looking in the mirror and learning proper technique. (Cars included)....

If you make it a habit to text while driving, does that mean you "deserve" an accident? I don't think so... but the amount of sympathy you will receive when you put your car in a ditch is lessened significantly.... we reap what we sow.

[Thomas Pender]

So many posts over the years about how good practice avoids injuries when using a table saw. All are true. The problem is that many folks cannot be perfect all of the time and folks will use tools when they should not. We all know that. If we could all be perfect there would be no need for any safety device.

Problem with table saws is that it is a $400M/year industry that causes over $1 Billion in injuries every year. ( I forget the actual numbers - it has been a while since I heard Dr. Gass' undisputed the testimony.) Thus, it is fair to say they are inherently dangerous. I personally believe that making table saws without the blade drop technology is indefensible. Interestingly, the folks who own FESTOOL bought Sawstop. I guess it makes me a double member of a cursed class, for I love both.

[Peter Christensen]

Man the tablesaw sure can bring out extremes in woodworkers.

I remember, even before Saw Stop came along, on other forums 'passionate' discussions between the British and Americans over mandatory riving knives, blade guards, no dado blades, short rip fences and how great sliding tablesaws were. They were for them and you were flat out against all of it.

Today you push for riving knives, blade guards and a lot now praise sliders. Short fences and no dado blades have a way to go through.

Saw Stop is now the frontrunner in the tablesaw wars. What will it be in a decade? Maybe CNC routers?

[mreza Salav]

But would you feel the same way if that camera added 8% to the price of your next new car? If SawStop was charging a $20 royalty to use their patents there would be almost no pushback but Gass has decided that he should get an 8% cut of the action in order to maximize his profit. If he truly cared like he pretends to the royalty number would be much smaller.

If we have passed the philosophy of whether it should be mandated or not then we can talk about practical aspects. The numbers suggest table saw accidents are costing a lot annually (more than the sale of table saws altogether). So if that can be reduced drastically by adding 10% to the cost of each table saw I think that's still a clear choice.
If we put emotions aside here (whether he benefits a lot from this or not) and look at how much we (the society) benefit, it again becomes non-issue.
It seems to me a lot of resistance comes from the fact that people feel the inventor is benefiting or getting rich by this mandate and they just ignore the fact how much saving to the whole society we get.

[mreza Salav]

I agree with you that in the OP case, he shouldn't use table saws. My argument isn't about people in those situations. I'm talking about general population of TS users. I've seen enough of professional (40+ years of experience) users lost digits for various reasons (somebody dropped a board behind them while making a cut, making multiple cuts routinely and a moment of lapse of judgment, etc etc). They are not stupid or incapable or not trained. These are all perfect users of TS's that like every other human being have moments that are not entirely in their control. They shouldn't pay a high price of loosing digits because of that.

I sign off this discussion.

[Pat Barry]

Lots of horror stories:
http://www.sawaccidents.com/recently-added-accidents.htm

(http://www.sawaccidents.com/recently-added-accidents.htm)

[John M Wilson]

I find this thread disturbing...but it's not the pro/con SawStop bashing which we have seen many times before.

I have been actively trying not to join in this discussion, but since my thoughts keep returning to this thread, I feel obligated to toss in my two cents.

Although I don't post much, I do feel a part of the Sawmill Creek Community. I check these discussion boards daily; I have learned so much about woodworking (and other things); and I have gotten to "know" several folks just by their posts over the years. My wife is probably tired of me passing along the tidbits, trivia, and valuable information I learn each day.

The thing that sets Sawmill Creek above so many other discussion boards is the friendly sharing of information and overall helpful tone. I'm sure you have visited other DIY type forums where posting an innocent question leads to several predictable and snarky comments (e.g. "Use The SEARCH FUNCTION!!! Asked and Answered a million times!! OP is a dangerous hack, just asking this question reveals their complete idiocy, and if they don't use a licensed professional tradesperson that interprets the code in total agreement with me they deserve to have their house burn down!!) I have always been impressed by the civil discourse of SMC, the way we treat newcomers, and the polite and honest sharing of opinions.

This thread seems to drift away from our long-term SMC philosophy... and that's what makes me nervous. I'm hoping that this is an aberration.

I recently ran across a bit of wisdom that many of you have probably seen before... it's been attributed to many different philosophers. The advice is to consider Four Questions (or Gates) before hitting the "Submit Reply" button:


Is it True?
Is it Kind?
Is it Necessary?
Does it Improve upon the Silence?


I truly hope that my current post does pass through the Four Gates, and that we can return to a more pleasant way to discuss the various methods of making smaller pieces of wood out of larger ones.

[Erik Loza]

I don't see any vitriol aimed at the OP... I sense a sort of disbelief, in general, that a gentleman with a history of grand mal seizures would choose woodworking with industrial tools as a hobby. I, too, think hand tools would be a much safer/better option...

My late grandfather had an undiagnosed (for many years) brain tumor that caused him to black out randomly and have dementia-like effects when he did "come to". Grandpa B. was an engineer and machinist-instructor for the US Army during WWII and pretty much taught me what I know about shop safety, but he was also a very proud man. One day, the police had to tow his car out of a ditch because he apparently blacked out while driving. It was a busy neighborhood. He went up on the sidewalk and took out a phone booth before crashing. A miracle no pedestrian got killed.

Personally, I don't think a table saw with blade brake would be any guarantee of safety if you were, say, leaning over the table on the way out of a cut, blacked out, and flopped face-first onto the blade but thankfully, that didn't happen. This is a cautionary tale about safe choices IMO. Safe ww-ing to all.

Erik

[Peter Christensen]

Eric if you are willing to pay for a ham, new brake and blade I will drop that ham on a fully raised unguarded blade. That would roughly show whether someone in your scenario would be cut wide open or just have "tear along dotted line" marks.

[Mike Henderson]

Eric if you are willing to pay for a ham, new brake and blade I will drop that ham on a fully raised unguarded blade. That would roughly show whether someone in your scenario would be cut wide open or just have "tear along dotted line" marks.

Humm, I wonder if the ham, not attached to anything, would be enough to trigger the brake. It might require that you be touching the ham as it hit the blade in order to trigger reliably. Or have a wire stuck in the ham with you holding the other end.

But we could get a group together and test it and have ham sandwiches afterwards, no matter how it came out:)

Mike

[Based on my experience with the brake engaging, I would bet the if someone went face first into a SawStop blade, there would be very little injury, unless the first thing that hit the blade was the eyeball. It triggers and brakes very quickly.]

[Peter Christensen]

Well with a chicken leg, tonights dinner, I touched the blade (saw off) with 4 layers of plastic wrap between me and the chicken and the warning light flashed signifying that the blade brake will activate if the saw is running. Touched the blade with the plastic wrap between me and the blade and no flashing. Touched the blade with my bare finger and the warning light flashes. That tells me that the ham would be protected whether dropped on its own or wired to a person. Remember that you aren't closing a circuit between you and the saw since there wouldn't be any current flow through you to the floor and into the machine. It detects a change in the electrical field through the blade when a conductive object is is added like flesh.

Ham sandwiches sounds fine by me or corned beef. Heck I'd be fine with Sushi if you can get some fresh tuna or wild salmon!

[Erik Loza]

Clearly, someone needs to make a crash test dummy head out of Spam and conduct an experiment.

Erik

[Martin Wasner]

The problem is that many folks cannot be perfect all of the time and folks will use tools when they should not.


First half of the sentence is pure cow manure. Ask an airline pilot how imperfect their performance is. They screw up, nobody limps away from that one.

The second half is pretty flawless

[Keith Outten]

I have been working on this thread removing and editing a lot of posts in an effort to keep it friendly. All of you should know that SawMill Creek is and will always be a friendly place to visit and insulting another Member is never an acceptable situation.

I closed this thread because its not going to improve based on some of the people involved. One last bit of advice, if your not a medical doctor who has examined a particular individual you should probably keep your medical advice to yourself and don't practice medicine here at any time even if you are a licensed professional.