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View Full Version : Best pricing/deals on trotec speedy 300



Jay Cee
08-10-2017, 3:38 PM
Can ya'll let me know what was the best price you received on at Trotec Speedy300? What options did it include and was it purchased at a show?

Marc Jeske
08-10-2017, 5:46 PM
If you have not yet seen this....... Marc

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?192651-Trotec-Speedy-300-Pricing-Trade-Show-vs-Sawmill-Creek-Pricing


https://www.google.com/search?q=Trotec+Speedy300&oq=Trotec+Speedy300&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Jerome Stanek
08-10-2017, 5:46 PM
I have talked to a couple different reps and received different prices just like the old car dealers.

Jay Cee
08-10-2017, 6:14 PM
I have seen those post but most of them are from a few years back. I am not sure how accurate they are since I'm sure the cost of material has gone up.

Mike Null
08-10-2017, 8:48 PM
Chances are prices have come down. You still have to negotiate your purchase so I don"t think any prices you may see posted have much validity.

John Lifer
08-11-2017, 10:01 AM
If you DO have a show near you, I'd go and try to work a deal. If not for the demo model, then just for another new machine. You SHOULD get a decent deal there.

Keith Outten
08-11-2017, 1:23 PM
Most of the major laser engraver manufacturers prefer not to have their pricing information shared on the Internet. They all have their reasons so we respect their position here knowing that there are so many variables and options available that it is very easy to misinterpret price structure without the details.

Although we certainly could disregard their policy its just disrespectful to do so and we won't make any friends with manufacturers. Some of these companies are sponsors of SawMill Creek and without their support there would not be any free access here. In fact almost half of our sponsors are from the laser engraving industry or engraving material suppliers so every forum here benefits from their financial support.

Bill George
08-12-2017, 11:37 AM
I have talked to a couple different reps and received different prices just like the old car dealers.

I remember those days well. The price was whatever the car sales person wanted to quote and thought you would pay. By the time the wholesaler - distributer got their cut it could be anything. Whatever the market would bear. Except when you talked to your neighbor and he got a good deal at XYZ motors.

So you really need to wonder if part of the influx of good Chinese machines is because you can see the price and then negotiate, instead of playing the "game"? I am not talking about the ch@p being peddled on eBay.

Michael Henriksen
08-12-2017, 12:37 PM
If I had bought an Epilog and then discovered someone had bought the same model several thousand dollars cheaper at a show I would feel cheated. Prices vary between Chinese Mfgs. but not by a lot. I don't understand the need for all the "smoke and mirrors". Even car dealerships have list prices these days and options are priced as well.

John Lifer
08-12-2017, 2:04 PM
Its call a Show special! Those attending the show and making a purchase get a further discount. Nothing harmful or deceitful about that. And almost 100 % of the companies displaying have some sort of show special. JDS has a 20% discount if you stop by their booth and purchase within a time period.

Mike Null
08-12-2017, 2:13 PM
Keep in mind that with all of the companies selling lasers the reps work on varying commission arrangements. The salesperson has a lot to say about the price.
Show specials are pretty much as John has described them.

Michael Henriksen
08-12-2017, 2:24 PM
Maybe not deceitful but I would still feel cheated if I saw the price reduced by several thousand at a show. YMMV - this is how I feel about it. I know it's common practise but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Scott Shepherd
08-12-2017, 3:06 PM
Maybe not deceitful but I would still feel cheated if I saw the price reduced by several thousand at a show. YMMV - this is how I feel about it. I know it's common practise but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Does it bother you when someone buys a car $500 cheaper than you did because they negotiated a better deal?

I don't get it. Sales reps have most often gotten a cut of the sale price. That's how they make money. If they selected the lowest price and gave everyone that deal, then they'd make less money. The people selling lasers aren't knocking down six figures a year as sales reps. They are feeding their families with the commission.

Part of running a business is negotiating the best deal for your business. If you aren't willing to do that for your own business, that's not the sales reps fault. This is not unique to lasers. Buy most any capital expense and it's your duty to negoiate the best deal. In almost 35 years in manufacturing, I've never seen an employer that didn't negotiate the deal when purchasing a new piece of equipment, even if that equipment was $2500.

Jay Cee
08-13-2017, 4:59 PM
I totally agree with you Michael! I feel as though there should be sticker or invoice price like cars so we know a ballpark range. But to not have any prices listed anywhere and to throw out numbers and have a $5k-$10k difference isn't cool. I get it they are all sales and need to make the money but same goes on the other end where people have families to support also and shouldn't be ripped off.

Jay Cee
08-13-2017, 5:02 PM
Does it bother you when someone buys a car $500 cheaper than you did because they negotiated a better deal?

I don't get it. Sales reps have most often gotten a cut of the sale price. That's how they make money. If they selected the lowest price and gave everyone that deal, then they'd make less money. The people selling lasers aren't knocking down six figures a year as sales reps. They are feeding their families with the commission.

Part of running a business is negotiating the best deal for your business. If you aren't willing to do that for your own business, that's not the sales reps fault. This is not unique to lasers. Buy most any capital expense and it's your duty to negoiate the best deal. In almost 35 years in manufacturing, I've never seen an employer that didn't negotiate the deal when purchasing a new piece of equipment, even if that equipment was $2500.

The reason I had asked for a ball park range was because our local dealer told us the price was not negotiable and it was the lowest he had given in the last 10 years. I find it hard to believe that the first price he gave was the best price. And he isn't willing to budge. Hence my only reason asking for advice and previous experiences on this forum.

Michael Henriksen
08-13-2017, 5:06 PM
It may be more common in Scandinavia than in other places that things have a list price? Certainly all major car brands have list prices. Machines sales do seem to be more smoke and mirrors that many other products though.

Scott Shepherd
08-13-2017, 7:33 PM
The reason I had asked for a ball park range was because our local dealer told us the price was not negotiable and it was the lowest he had given in the last 10 years. I find it hard to believe that the first price he gave was the best price. And he isn't willing to budge. Hence my only reason asking for advice and previous experiences on this forum.

Do you post all your pricing on your website? We don't have a single price on ours and in all the years of being on this forum and getting to know many of the people who run laser engraving businesses, I can't say I've ever seen one of them post pricing on their site either. There's a reason for that. You want the customer to call you because then you have made contact and in sales, that's the first step. If you post it all online, then you never get to talk to the customer and explain why your product/services are better and worth a premium.

I've said many times that I don't understand the hang up with pricing. I've watched people buy a machine that cost $1000 less to save $1,000, but they bought a slower machine that took 25% longer to run almost every rastering job that you'd ever put on the machine. So you saved $1,000, but gave away how many $1,000's in slower production? Doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint, at least from our business standpoint. We want the fastest, most reliable machine we can get. If it costs $3,000 more, then it costs $3,000 more. Over the life of the machine, that $3,000 investment is going to pay off exponentially.

Having said that, if you are buying it as a hobby, then speed/time doesn't matter, so all bets are off. But I think any reasonable ROI would point you to the right machine to buy.

I've bought machines from people I didn't care for much. I held my nose and ordered it. Why? Because it was the best machine for us. We could have easily said "I don't like his attitude" and bought a lesser machine. Then who suffers? The guy that we didn't buy the machine from? Or us, because now we're stuck with a lesser machine for the next 5 years?

Jay Cee
08-14-2017, 12:42 AM
Do you post all your pricing on your website? We don't have a single price on ours and in all the years of being on this forum and getting to know many of the people who run laser engraving businesses, I can't say I've ever seen one of them post pricing on their site either. There's a reason for that. You want the customer to call you because then you have made contact and in sales, that's the first step. If you post it all online, then you never get to talk to the customer and explain why your product/services are better and worth a premium.

I've said many times that I don't understand the hang up with pricing. I've watched people buy a machine that cost $1000 less to save $1,000, but they bought a slower machine that took 25% longer to run almost every rastering job that you'd ever put on the machine. So you saved $1,000, but gave away how many $1,000's in slower production? Doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint, at least from our business standpoint. We want the fastest, most reliable machine we can get. If it costs $3,000 more, then it costs $3,000 more. Over the life of the machine, that $3,000 investment is going to pay off exponentially.

Having said that, if you are buying it as a hobby, then speed/time doesn't matter, so all bets are off. But I think any reasonable ROI would point you to the right machine to buy.

I've bought machines from people I didn't care for much. I held my nose and ordered it. Why? Because it was the best machine for us. We could have easily said "I don't like his attitude" and bought a lesser machine. Then who suffers? The guy that we didn't buy the machine from? Or us, because now we're stuck with a lesser machine for the next 5 years?

You can't compare a consumer product with a service. I've never seen consumer products not have a price. Have you ever walked into a store to purchase a laptop and not know what the price was? Or a tv? No, the price is always listed. So why would that be any different when purchasing machinery? Even cars have a listed invoice price and people can use that to negotiate with sales.

Michael Henriksen
08-14-2017, 6:34 AM
My physical goods have a price listed.

Scott Shepherd
08-14-2017, 9:01 AM
You can't compare a consumer product with a service. I've never seen consumer products not have a price. Have you ever walked into a store to purchase a laptop and not know what the price was? Or a tv? No, the price is always listed. So why would that be any different when purchasing machinery? Even cars have a listed invoice price and people can use that to negotiate with sales.

I think you have that backwards. A piece of capital equipment is not a consumer product like a laptop or tv where they make millions of them. Like I said, one rule of sales is to make contact. Positing pricing online takes that away.

Selling lasers is not a "Retail" operation. Comparing it to retail is the flaw. It's not retail. Bottom line, don't like the fact there are no prices on their website, don't buy from them. But do so at your own expense.

Jerome Stanek
08-14-2017, 9:12 AM
I think you have that backwards. A piece of capital equipment is not a consumer product like a laptop or tv where they make millions of them. Like I said, one rule of sales is to make contact. Positing pricing online takes that away.

Selling lasers is not a "Retail" operation. Comparing it to retail is the flaw. It's not retail. Bottom line, don't like the fact there are no prices on their website, don't buy from them. But do so at your own expense.

If selling a product is not retail then it must be wholesale but I still think that they should at least have a MSRP

Mike Null
08-14-2017, 9:39 AM
Car dealers have MSRP. It's meaningless.

Michael Henriksen
08-14-2017, 9:41 AM
Bottom line, don't like the fact there are no prices on their website, don't buy from them. But do so at your own expense.

Or theirs, as it may be. The lack of transparent pricing could be turning potential customers away.

Michael Henriksen
08-14-2017, 9:58 AM
Car dealers have MSRP. It's meaningless.

I think the sales model is different in the US compared to where I live. Basically the dealerships here have an online configurator tool that gives you the price and you pay the same price irrespective of which dealer you buy from. What they will pay for your trade-in if you go that route, is where it can vary a bit from dealer to dealer. Not by a lot though as they have guidelines.

Keith Outten
08-14-2017, 12:15 PM
The price of a car on a lot varies from car to car based on model and options. The same is true of Laser Engravers, CNC Routers, etc.

If you don't like the dealer in your area call the main office and ask for assistance. I purchased two Trotec Lasers and never talked to my local dealer and if you look around here you can find the contact information for someone at the Trotec office who would be glad to help. I try my best to keep this information current.

Jay Cee
08-14-2017, 1:01 PM
My physical goods have a price listed.

EXACTLY. Physical goods whether you want to call them a "capital good" or a consumer product or just a plain PRODUCT should have a listed price.

Jay Cee
08-14-2017, 1:03 PM
I think you have that backwards. A piece of capital equipment is not a consumer product like a laptop or tv where they make millions of them. Like I said, one rule of sales is to make contact. Positing pricing online takes that away.

Selling lasers is not a "Retail" operation. Comparing it to retail is the flaw. It's not retail. Bottom line, don't like the fact there are no prices on their website, don't buy from them. But do so at your own expense.

We have already contacted our local office and it is a one man company and wont budge on the first price that was given. Therefore I ask what the ballpark range is because he is stating no room for negotiation. So contacting him to get a price that I could not negotiate wasn't any difference than just posting one non-negotiable price online.

Scott Shepherd
08-14-2017, 1:14 PM
EXACTLY. Physical goods whether you want to call them a "capital good" or a consumer product or just a plain PRODUCT should have a listed price.

Lasers are not retail items. You don't go to a website, click on the one you want, then click on "Add to cart" and order a laser. It's equipment that has be ordered, shipped, and built from Austria. That's not the same as buying a premade product off the shelf.

Don't like the guys price? Then don't buy it. Move on to their competitor.

Michael Henriksen
08-14-2017, 1:30 PM
That is actually how it works for many car brands these days. They are made to order and you can specify the options via a website. If you can do it for a car, surely it can be done for a laser as well?

Scott Shepherd
08-14-2017, 1:37 PM
That's the way all 3 major manufactures do it. Call them and complain. A car manufacturer makes millions of cars. Lasers aren't cars. Not sure how to say it. So when you bought your Weike lasers, did you have to contact them for pricing, or was it done all online through a shopping cart?

There aren't any laser manufacturers doing it, for the reasons I have repeated. They want you to contact them so they can determine which product suits your needs, as well as making that human contact. There are books written about making human contact and it's value in a sale. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Here's one study that talks about the importance of making phone contact with potential customers.... http://pages.velocify.com/rs/leads360/images/Ultimate-Contact-Strategy.pdf

Bill George
08-14-2017, 2:16 PM
Calling people to get prices is a waste of everyone's time. For those of us who have other things to do, waiting for a phone call or the salesperson to get back from lunch is a pain. Either take the time to post prices as a starting point or learn to use email effectively. If the person can not compose and send an email then its time to move on.

Michael Henriksen
08-14-2017, 2:49 PM
Unfortunately Weike do no publish list prices but they respond instantly to email. Some Chinese suppliers do list prices online, Sinjoe for example. In the West dealers like Boss Laser, FSL, HPC, Rabbit USA etc. list prices. I don't see why the likes of Trotec and Epilog can post some ballpark prices.

Jay Cee
08-14-2017, 2:52 PM
The price of a car on a lot varies from car to car based on model and options. The same is true of Laser Engravers, CNC Routers, etc.

If you don't like the dealer in your area call the main office and ask for assistance. I purchased two Trotec Lasers and never talked to my local dealer and if you look around here you can find the contact information for someone at the Trotec office who would be glad to help. I try my best to keep this information current.

Thanks Keith! We gave that a shot and we were referred back to the local dealer.

Jay Cee
08-14-2017, 2:55 PM
Calling people to get prices is a waste of everyone's time. For those of us who have other things to do, waiting for a phone call or the salesperson to get back from lunch is a pain. Either take the time to post prices as a starting point or learn to use email effectively. If the person can not compose and send an email then its time to move on.

Yes I agree with you! I can only call and email so many times before it just doesn't make sense anymore. No matter how great of a company is and how great their products are, if customer service isn't there, that should tell you something about them.

Jay Cee
08-14-2017, 2:57 PM
Unfortunately Weike do no publish list prices but they respond instantly to email. Some Chinese suppliers do list prices online, Sinjoe for example. In the West dealers like Boss Laser, FSL, HPC, Rabbit USA etc. list prices. I don't see why the likes of Trotec and Epilog can post some ballpark prices.


My thoughts exactly!

Jerome Stanek
08-14-2017, 3:01 PM
That's the way all 3 major manufactures do it. Call them and complain. A car manufacturer makes millions of cars. Lasers aren't cars. Not sure how to say it. So when you bought your Weike lasers, did you have to contact them for pricing, or was it done all online through a shopping cart?

There aren't any laser manufacturers doing it, for the reasons I have repeated. They want you to contact them so they can determine which product suits your needs, as well as making that human contact. There are books written about making human contact and it's value in a sale. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Here's one study that talks about the importance of making phone contact with potential customers.... http://pages.velocify.com/rs/leads360/images/Ultimate-Contact-Strategy.pdf

I did mine online and bought it. You can go to Rabbit, Automation and FSL and get prices and configure the way you want. I am sure there are others that do that also

Michael Henriksen
08-14-2017, 3:32 PM
Jay Cee, I think the comment about G. Weike was aimed at me as I have two lasers from them (see my signature).

Based on information posted on this forum I have gathered that the price of the same model Epilog can vary by several thousand dollars depending on whether you buy it at a show or from a dealer. Some mentioned 20% difference. To me that's taking the piss. If I had bought one from a sales rep. who had assured me I got the lowest possible price and I then later found out someone had bought the machine 20% cheaper at a show I would be very upset. Hand on heart - is there anyone who wouldn't be upset to find themselves in that situation?

Some years ago I was a dealer for a hobby related product from a Canadian manufacturer. Shortly after I received a large order they decided to offer a special deal on their own website and basically sell the product for less than I had paid for it. No advance notice to any dealers and I wasn't the only one that dropped them.

Gary Hair
08-14-2017, 3:42 PM
That's the way all 3 major manufactures do it. Call them and complain. A car manufacturer makes millions of cars. Lasers aren't cars. Not sure how to say it. So when you bought your Weike lasers, did you have to contact them for pricing, or was it done all online through a shopping cart?

There aren't any laser manufacturers doing it, for the reasons I have repeated. They want you to contact them so they can determine which product suits your needs, as well as making that human contact. There are books written about making human contact and it's value in a sale. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Here's one study that talks about the importance of making phone contact with potential customers.... http://pages.velocify.com/rs/leads360/images/Ultimate-Contact-Strategy.pdf

The other part of the equation, and I believe the larger part, is that if you list the price of your laser and someone else lists theirs for a lower price, then most of the people shopping will tend to go with the lower price machine - regardless of the features and benefits of the higher priced machine, and there is no negotiating via a shopping cart. There are some people who will look past the price and actually make a decision based on the value of the machine, not the price, but they are few and far between.

Doug Fisher
08-14-2017, 4:59 PM
Good point about Boss, Rabbit and others who provide list prices as a starting point on their websites.

If manufacturers are going to use a system of regional dealers/reps that a customer must use based on their location, the manufacturers are fools if they don't do some sort of monitoring and evaluation (both buying customers and those who did not buy). I hate when I get a bad salesperson and am stuck dealing with them. I will not deal with them unless there is no other choice and I will often pay a little more somewhere else just to NOT let them profit off of me. The bad reps basically become "protected." It "costs" the company in terms of sales and the customer in terms of prices and a lack of a satisfactory experience. The only one who profits is the bad rep. I will not beg a sales rep in order for them to make a profit off of a sale to me.

Jerome Stanek
08-14-2017, 7:12 PM
I like the ability to shop from other areas not being told that I have to deal with a particular office. I also like to comparison shop and get the best price. This is not a socialist state

Bill George
08-14-2017, 7:30 PM
A bad sales rep will cost the company in the long run. I guess I must be an exception because I comparison shop when buying anything. Price does not mean much if the machine does not work. Yeah I have a couple of Chinese lasers, but if I needed a Trotec for a full time business I would buy one. I work part time at the laser engraving trade but I am not working for nothing, some of my prices may be higher than the full timers here.

John Lifer
08-14-2017, 10:28 PM
I think there is a machinery sales model in place with the US manufacturers. I'm my past, company bought a number of large injection molding machines. Most over 6 figures, some half a million. Thru reps, but absolutely no list or published prices just the way the world in machine sales works..

Mike Null
08-15-2017, 9:57 AM
You're right John. What is, is. Why put a target on your back by posting prices.

Bill George
08-15-2017, 10:30 AM
The difference is, most large companies have purchasing agents or even entire departments whose only job is to set at a desk all day and make phone calls or send faxes. Laser engraving business, and correct me if I am wrong are a one man show or mom - pop business who are usually busy making money. Phone calls, the machine is shut down or someone leaves the counter un-attended.

Robert Bonenfant
08-15-2017, 12:59 PM
Hey Jay,

Your best bet if your spending alot of $$$ on a machine is to go to one shows and get a few quotes - They offer there best pricing at these events because there are 10 other competitors (Maybe More Depending on what your buying) in the same building fighting for your sale. Also when we purchase equipment we always hear this is the lowest possible price but this doesn't mean they cant throw in addons or offer a one time discounts on additional items - Our last large purchase we where able to get $4800 in addons for free - Dont be afraid to ask and if you are have a friend work the deal. One good tactic is having the cash or financing on hand when negotiating pricing - Once a dealer knows your serious and you make it know that you plan to purchase ASAP than they tend to be alittle more generous.

Good Luck
Robert

Jeanette Brewer
08-15-2017, 1:31 PM
I like the ability to shop from other areas not being told that I have to deal with a particular office.

FWIW, there are some distributors who would be tickled pink with unprotected/open territories. ;)

Keith Outten
08-15-2017, 1:34 PM
Jay Cee,

I have sent you a PM with the email address and cell phone number of Kris Tennyson, he is our SawMill Creek contact at Trotec.
He promised me that he would personally take care of any of our Members.
.

Matt McCoy
08-15-2017, 1:42 PM
Maybe a better comparison would be to CNC machines. Both ShopBot and CAMaster (for example) have prices listed on their website and can be configured with upgrades. It's a starting point. The Western laser 3 will likely have to move in that direction if the market continues to split with Chinese machines, start-ups, and also-rans.

John Lifer
08-15-2017, 6:20 PM
Na Matt, I think things will stay close to where they are now. Why change? Chinese? They really aren't competition. They may take a few customers, but can you really call someone like me who can't afford a Epilog Mini a real customer? They didn't lose a customer when I bought a chinese machine. They actually have a real POTENTIAL customer as I've learned how limited the Chinese laser is for a lot of things. It works, but I have to really WORK hard to make it work. And when I can afford it, It will be replaced with a US machine.

Scott Shepherd
08-15-2017, 6:53 PM
So what's the cost of living in NYC vs. somewhere in Alabama? Why would the prices be the same? The cost to do business across the states varies greatly. Rent might be 3-4x higher in one place than another. Should you fix the pricing so the Sales reps in Alabama get paid the same as the ones in NY? Or should it be the other way around, set the price based on Alabama's cost of living, them pay the guy in NY like he lives in Alabama? It's just not as simple as "setting a price". It works for Chinese because they don't live here. They don't have reps that work and live across the entire country.

Does a name tag cost the same in North Carolina as it does in New York City? I seriously doubt it. I have friends up north. I could NEVER get the prices they get for engraved items. And they'd go broke and be homeless if they could only charge what we do.

Matt McCoy
08-15-2017, 9:18 PM
Does a ShopBot or CamMaster cost the same in every state?

Scott Shepherd
08-15-2017, 10:16 PM
Does a ShopBot or CamMaster cost the same in every state?

Does Shopbot or Camaster have sales reps and tech centers all across the USA? Nope. They both sell from 1 location in 1 state.

Matt McCoy
08-16-2017, 11:29 AM
Na Matt, I think things will stay close to where they are now. Why change? Chinese? They really aren't competition...

Lately, Chinese fiber lasers have been pretty popular on this forum. I suspect that price/performance was a big consideration, so maybe the argument can be made that they are competition.


...Rent might be 3-4x higher in one place than another. Should you fix the pricing so the Sales reps in Alabama get paid the same as the ones in NY?...

Bigger impacts are rent for distributor showrooms and sales rep salaries that must be recouped and added to the price of selling a machine. For some, that is the difference in starting a business, or not. I'm not advocating against this model (free market, and all that), but it was the standard before the internet and times change.


Does Shopbot or Camaster have sales reps and tech centers all across the USA? Nope. They both sell from 1 location in 1 state.

Two examples that it can be done and every customer, no matter how much their annual revenue, can expect to pay about the same price for a machine that cuts and engraves.

Robert Bonenfant
08-16-2017, 11:47 AM
Scott,

I know from getting quotes from Kern and tortec that there sales reps controls large areas. Kern you can call in and get a instant quote and trotec we had to have a regional sales rep call us. Matt from trotec has the tile of "Great Lakes Territory Sales Manager" so its to my understanding that we works across several states and I think hes based out of Michigan - We are in Ohio. Im sure prices will vary alittle bit but when a machine is produced it cost X and it can be sent anywhere in American and the only variable that will change is the Shipping and taxes - The Machines production cost always stays at X.

Companies like Shopbot and Camaster are great companies but I dont think they are on the same Level as Onsrud, Thermwood (They dont state there pricing online) because they offer a huge line of High end commercial machines. The same as Trotec, Kern Compared to Camfive, Rabbit, Bosslaser - They are all great companies but Trotec and kern are in a class of there own. Trotec and Kern machines have so many options and configurations that a price list would make your head spin.

Jerome Stanek
08-16-2017, 1:06 PM
Lately, Chinese fiber lasers have been pretty popular on this forum. I suspect that price/performance was a big consideration, so maybe the argument can be made that they are competition.



Bigger impacts are rent for distributor showrooms and sales rep salaries that must be recouped and added to the price of selling a machine. For some, that is the difference in starting a business, or not. I'm not advocating against this model (free market, and all that), but it was the standard before the internet and times change.



Two examples that it can be done and every customer, no matter how much their annual revenue, can expect to pay about the same price for a machine that cuts and engraves.

He's what the MSRP is so he can determine if he getting a fair deal I have been quoted 4 different price on the same unit when I was looking just like an old time car dealer.

Scott Shepherd
08-16-2017, 1:23 PM
Two examples that it can be done and every customer, no matter how much their annual revenue, can expect to pay about the same price for a machine that cuts and engraves.

Or, you could look at Trotec's growth over the last 5 years, see how they have exploded in the USA, and think "Wow, they must be doing something right".

I think it's safe to say that Trotec, Epilog, and Universal, all know how to run their business, as witnessed in the sales of all 3 of them.

Keith Outten
08-16-2017, 1:53 PM
I really don't understand the argument here, every company has the right to establish their own policy concerning how they price their products and that includes how they disseminate that information.

I love it when someone tries to tell me how to run my company or when they disagree with any policy I establish...I show them the door and laugh all the way back to my desk. I tend to agree with Scott, I deal with each company according to their rules and policies and I don't expect all companies to comply with an established set of rules.
.

Doug Fisher
08-16-2017, 2:06 PM
>>Or, you could look at Trotec's growth over the last 5 years, see how they have exploded in the USA, and think "Wow, they must be doing something right".<<

This is a classic example of why I said companies are fools if they don't do some sort of monitoring and evaluation (both buying customers and those who did not buy) when they have a system of "protected" sales reps. Sure, they made an amazing amount of money and had great sales. BUT how much more money and how much larger of a base of satisfied long-term customers would they have had now if they had a sales system that produced more responsive salespeople and a more positive experience for people who were gathering information for their purchasing decision?

Matt McCoy
08-16-2017, 2:35 PM
Or, you could look at Trotec's growth over the last 5 years, see how they have exploded in the USA, and think "Wow, they must be doing something right".

I think it's safe to say that Trotec, Epilog, and Universal, all know how to run their business, as witnessed in the sales of all 3 of them.

I'm not sure where I would witness their sales, but I will take your word and hope they will all continue to make great machines for a long time. How does the growth of DC lasers or imported fibers compare in the last 5 years?

Scott Shepherd
08-16-2017, 3:06 PM
How does the growth of DC lasers or imported fibers compare in the last 5 years?

I'd say they aren't the same customers. Someone looking for a $3,000 ebay laser isn't the same customer as someone looking for a Trotec. I'd say that DESPITE the influx of Chinese lasers, Trotec's sales have been off the charts. I've witnessed them going from a reasonably small footprint in the USA to having a HUGE footprint in the USA with regional service centers and loads more people working for them. I do know that companies that aren't doing well don't open new locations and hire new people.

My guess is Epilog, Universal, and Trotec have all done well in the last 5 years, despite so many imported machines coming in. How's that possible? They make phone contact and explain their case for buying their machines, like any good sales staff does.

Matt McCoy
08-16-2017, 3:27 PM
I'd say they aren't the same customers. Someone looking for a $3,000 ebay laser isn't the same customer as someone looking for a Trotec. I'd say that DESPITE the influx of Chinese lasers, Trotec's sales have been off the charts. I've witnessed them going from a reasonably small footprint in the USA to having a HUGE footprint in the USA with regional service centers and loads more people working for them. I do know that companies that aren't doing well don't open new locations and hire new people.

My guess is Epilog, Universal, and Trotec have all done well in the last 5 years, despite so many imported machines coming in. How's that possible? They make phone contact and explain their case for buying their machines, like any good sales staff does.

Bourbon is a type of whiskey, but not all whiskey is bourbon. There are many professionals on this forum that have Chinese DC lasers in their signature, that are not $3,000 eBay lasers, as you put it. My guess is that this was not the case 5-6 years ago, and has had some bearing on market share.

Scott Shepherd
08-16-2017, 3:36 PM
Bourbon is a type of whiskey, but not all whiskey is bourbon. There are many professionals on this forum that have Chinese DC lasers in their signature, that are not $3,000 eBay lasers, as you put it. My guess is that this was not the case 5-6 years ago, and has had some bearing on market share.

And where did I say that you can't be a professional with a Chinese laser?

What I said was that someone looking for a $3,000 laser isn't the same customer as someone looking for a $40,000 laser. I think that's stating the obvious. I suspect Western companies don't spend much time trying to convince a person looking to spend $3,000 that they need to spend $40,000.

The fact remains, Trotec has done very well. Figure that into any equation that works for you. Don't want to buy one, don't call them. It's pretty simple.

Jed Lawrie
08-16-2017, 3:42 PM
Following up with Scott, here's a link to Trotec moving into a new, larger building last year. 25,000 sq. feet. Seems like they are doing just fine.
https://a-e-mag.com/news/trotec-relocates-headquarters-larger-space-plymouth-michigan

Gary Hair
08-16-2017, 5:09 PM
Any laser manufacturer that has enough sales to justify a rep in Eugene Oregon is doing just fine... Yep, Trotec has a presence here!

Matt McCoy
08-16-2017, 5:47 PM
Maybe a better comparison would be to CNC machines. Both ShopBot and CAMaster (for example) have prices listed on their website and can be configured with upgrades. It's a starting point. The Western laser 3 will likely have to move in that direction if the market continues to split with Chinese machines, start-ups, and also-rans.


And where did I say that you can't be a professional with a Chinese laser?

What I said was that someone looking for a $3,000 laser isn't the same customer as someone looking for a $40,000 laser. I think that's stating the obvious. I suspect Western companies don't spend much time trying to convince a person looking to spend $3,000 that they need to spend $40,000.

The fact remains, Trotec has done very well. Figure that into any equation that works for you. Don't want to buy one, don't call them. It's pretty simple.

You might be debating yourself here, Steve. The discussion is about the rub, that some have expressed, at the inability to be transparent about about how much a machine costs and the haggle business model used by the big three. As seen in this thread, some will bristle at having to fly somewhere, within a few opportunities a year, to get a good price on a machine, or deal with a certain regional sales rep, when a customer might prefer the choice to do business with someone else.

As more purchase options become available and new manufacturers embrace ways to connect with how today's customer wants to do business, you will probably see a shift, especially for desktop and starter machines. You might be seeing that with fiber, now.

Jerome Stanek
08-16-2017, 6:44 PM
I looked at a Trotec when I was needing a laser I even went to a show and on the way home I stopped off at Rabbit and they convinced me that a Chinese laser would meet my needs. At the show I saw all 3 lasers and got show prices from them that I thought was very good prices on one of their demos I then called Trotec and received a lower price for a new machine. I actually got 2 prices at the show 2 different days and 2 different prices again 2 different times. That is why I decided that Trotec was not a company I wanted to deal with.

Keith Outten
08-17-2017, 12:20 PM
Jerome,

Trotec has an outstanding reputation with their customers and I know that they have a pretty solid pricing structure based on a very large number of people here who I have helped connect with Trotec over the years. I don't have clue what happened in your case but there must be a piece of the puzzle missing. Possibly you priced a machine with five different configurations or there was a misunderstanding somewhere that would explain the variety in price quotes. Or, maybe you didn't get written quotes, that is always the best course of action when your shopping for any major purchase.

A company that has a variety of machines at a show and in their warehouse can easily provide multiple prices that can vary considerably which is why a written quote gives you the option to compare the specifications of a machine and its options.

Jerome Stanek
08-17-2017, 1:28 PM
Jerome,

Trotec has an outstanding reputation with their customers and I know that they have a pretty solid pricing structure based on a very large number of people here who I have helped connect with Trotec over the years. I don't have clue what happened in your case but there must be a piece of the puzzle missing. Possibly you priced a machine with five different configurations or there was a misunderstanding somewhere that would explain the variety in price quotes. Or, maybe you didn't get written quotes, that is always the best course of action when your shopping for any major purchase.

A company that has a variety of machines at a show and in their warehouse can easily provide multiple prices that can vary considerably which is why a written quote gives you the option to compare the specifications of a machine and its options.


I don't know what it was at the show but it was 2 different people that I talked to about the demo unit there. When I called I again talked to 2 different people but the unit was set up the same as the show