Craftsman front door build

[David Boardman]

I am wanting to build a new front door for our house. I have never made a door and want it to be done right. So far my game plan is to use white oak or maybe Hickory, the joinery will be Dominos (14 mm). With that said is it okay to build a door from solid 8/4 material or does it need to be done with laminated 4/4 stock? I have seen it done both ways in videos I just don't know what the difference would be, I am guessing stability of the stock?

Any door builders have any tips? I might stain, if I do I'll be going with a deep brown maybe a shade or two darker than white oak naturally. When buying the stock is there a cut I should look for i.e. Rift, quarter, plane sawn?

Will I encounter any issues with using loose mortise and tenons? I was thinking of just making my own out of white oak instead of using beech just to keep it consistent.

Thanks!

[John TenEyck]

I've only built a few exterior doors, but have had the benefit of learning from someone who has built many hundreds. Of course you can use solid stock for a door, but a much more stable construction is to use stave core. The ones I built were made from LVL beam material, with solid wood edges, and then veneered with 3/16" shop sawn veneer using Plastic Resin Glue. I used large loose tenons for joinery, but dowels work just as well. I used epoxy to glue up the frame. Here's a photo showing the basic stave core construction.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6s8lrtvQiyVYSFKhFAY6pda4tIOiWBigCfQRWiWbzbqnUcXvMw 5AACx6cXPUvV7sjcpRv9reb6uRtNzWiH_mt6hQY6bUd42JIZlJ BlhRMCOrfpTyCHrUcGdefbsqzYlfmCgqtI1ZYm6GV49aIIxER4 szgOvBAB6nTGwwcLQXWld65OuBCCi176LeR_War0WMCYsbLlJM rEUpOKT6VRelN88J16V770-3rrMisbGPcGv9BdVb9q1fz4i1e7enUzvGEgVqsNd6hmGMv9dCo UqTQUikQYPrtnrgfKVUtZS2UhmiWoetidxtav67fXmyRU8034w L4pm57ZtjeLTTru1Uq-nmpuKm-b1eeD79oaddIkXQ-diTLtwijhUq8M4DLcw7YbhxaQ_8yDC8MhRSMKCWBznogRjGNDS xbxe0JvsPyCkKFXp6RyEzwOPdAh3LXWBf4fMpniC2icax8tvYP vr_TWfLA8AqAc0H4S59oAtRpTQDuWwQP6rkDV_x5iD3PoK7SBK Q3HRS3ExRxzzGl0DxpzfTlyyvYmTAUFBSNwKT6sE0zXB61XnWq Ri1qvAAY3PsBxqcLH-ZsF3ILfWuOJkCPYQwRRRfSgn2GSsRHA9_wLNmernv0ODaEoEwZ L7YNvAxZ7kDhn4ldb7tfhMEyL5LeVtQefSxpJVUzjyAiaMephC iPQk=w838-h628-no

This door was a frame panel, but the same process works for a solid door. If yours is going to have panels, too, you add any muntins using the same construction process.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/uujBGJb3R5zXYFtExeYEF-i1nCPPAV4ki8GfuoYNI8kh3sx3Qkoysgo0-ag0vOZLPpqFspFdu8NNygrG9n0ANyYG_nLvNNzMSDPHuS7e65R glNHnGXvlacf51qbvfxFWliVjN9QuEpJZSpi7dIF5gNtPWxAl8 OdrSEIS7frWg7pSvqdrYhLK66Bcw1nXqSUXr152YzY6Sl5BFR_ EFBOVJ6tGo22enfXU6bJi7BOI1BjlaqgG72Tke8n_ME0-09J3Ws88TcLbNRpqJFxsZxIezY9gJOeYEYccdHmvBfRDVFMMe2 2nv4bM4Tp8lyER1epdkIGoL7bL0wjT8riQd-brYZigvvCzGkqBKKoKQq6AXuUVrV7ICuFJrJ-qKbVoJS5mJZFjP-4utiQxZWuDK1kugoJujsipBWi_6wiCqWvZIFt6bsr3kcB2SFyH X3PPbQ0e_-_3m4IXZV3AoGVwLckaXy_XKHmDflUp5YMNBj_DqApzTLuTCZMc n9V5B-uQ1hq3xGSY97hZmiRHO3dXkUGn0DsRCfJ-cB6xW1Hx6ivC0hkAac4x3THhCusOvx_DX_Jpe2CesOoPmHjgOT dMzQKfB8madL8r3jKUrEdeMHEUItvg3yRSv3oyyVYynor5rpxL 0YzognjvEc7xrIdPL50JvNuCOH6VJAl9bH4oj3EVdE69i7s=w8 38-h628-no

I used back to back 3/4" solid wood panels so they could expand/contract independently with the seasons. They are held in the frame by moldings. Most times those moldings would have a rabbet to fit over the edge of the door frame, but these are inset. The moldings are glued in with epoxy, too.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/gW5n-6oDeHaD0XAloG5qhLtT5XBycsyvWp_TgWN1GRsFQ0GYD80fs9u HdtXvLvvfYXF12BmARQQkQIZ9stlr9e7JShEHIgLzL0uazNLU7 aq96wOYHmxhHN4nylOU9PKmVAWN9Un_sHzqORKnZScyuqDE1UJ ISX-nOH1VNIaO0MTrKvkpsSi9tZFdAe_BkEq9XFHsNPHmwZYpTOqzH U60GhetBc0mL6nz14ytH8kduWJjyLhigiBeqNhWfQH6uM5ZVFo Q5yqsrD93fAO7sTxpvd6JBbS3tD4qV003Mu-AQZCP79AtG6TMEnbb1QNy8a-k7TWPof3NLV1hdEBuS-JaHyyKVXRs1Bsu7r-4iI-JK_0LyX7Lq785eDjdBmX0t43p8TLTSopfHzCP-mc0RaVfsDL1xfWIxqRQfuKEXCluxuPQ3IvkQfbuYNPst0zVEAe VLJ2MDE4zGvNZvndo4enjCCNbbj7TB8bKP2CIBIkLaiD0wKe8T R8zy7ZX3aCNXglNK1EAFv1RwxaMRuAk04EA3XzNtgiw4YhY4UH AYmocOGFcIbrYWqxHYxfd0mtP4x--PX2YLXsFcUlxHLFgpgpZ6jIQzutJ-yvq22-lamJtpa74GBFLDo8hBvL3GWaODDW3VacFDZWmqbmWvEkxl9Dox MTX5kUUGLLwzCMP6FZ-HvWAplU=w838-h628-no

There are a lot of details required to make sure the door fits properly in the frame and sill and is weather tight. Too much for one post but we can discuss that, too, if you'd like.

I'm sure others have a different take on it and will share their wisdom, too. A door is not that hard to build, but they certainly are a challenge. There is a lot going on and the tolerances are surprisingly small.

John

[John TenEyck]

Here's a door in a sort of Craftsman style made by my mentor. This one is hickory on the outside, IIRC. Not a good choice, actually, unless it's really well protected by a porch, as this one is. White oak would be a better choice, mahogany infinitely better still. Anyway, if you look closely you'll see that his moldings have rabbets and fit over the edge of the frame openings, which adds another detail to the appearance as well as potentially better weather resistance. It's also easier to install.

https://forums.woodnet.net/ssl_proxy.php?url=http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/BCStudios/custom%20doors/20170309_164143_zps0nruysqs.jpg


The one I showed above sits directly against the weather and is made from Sapele, and looks like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Tu8luWE1AdLiXskCtVWiTCu-erRPIsqqJhf-7fQvftwH1qxF0mZalqG67DsCftJeZwTWpjVpK6XQIFQiPXH4Qo 0bpgbyKUHzTw8ZaU1qHr5A2ff1Xo7gRr8-wyX97M9FuyaIMsip6EZPSJjtlloao4MJrWfrbPmgYLqo0BRudi GXm1AUfVHEeU7N00b76eJyLNB8cjyr4WmwrK30yIP-TBcxYg59Pqy226ZOFgag89M8RcfXzOemG9LQXFsAzl0qimjotc Y-hB9TIJyg8MbJPEgRiHGUu0OIP3F9cZOpVFcF6BbxcUArZhPJ3q WG1LMSZiYBkVQfX8pCZdc91dHI5shc7NsODdCtBfWLtVhiA7Or UpFPPCzdtL_hPjS5w5wxGS1xUQn3m947oLcMHe9o5_ecuqQwHu ASye5ilJ_ni1Bg3XR86qcLqat2vjaSrCfaJKDUjxgaRfLhloUK zluQdSdS2I_VhSuM2jx948F9mA-LA8_vDfhAX73etwdpkZOzx89FeDtt7j5O0uKw0u0CYtqGOcbW_ bjSyXAzDU-Y_oyIgTT3NoCy5-ja_jRdqyM1s0mPTCdEil6JkkNLV1HIKUjZrJGwcXx4G1r1vOrV _it6R9jEjS0exJ3bp5wwuAd6RtKmA3KUs95CspjE_3autKXx5M LH3RE9r5HRLSR2A4WoegU=w471-h628-no


John

[David Boardman]

When doing the glass is it better to do 2 panes with an air gap or just a thicker single pane? I have it drawn up in sketch up and it seems pretty straight forward. I am going with 3 glass panes at the top with dentil molding underneath that follow by two raised panels. I like the idea of doing 4 raised panels out of 4/4 to float. I will likely do that.

[Davis Young]

I've done the double pane but I have my glass guy make up the units. He has different thickness spacers for the double panes so that gives me flexibility on the retaining strips I can use.

[John TenEyck]

You know that any glass you use in a passage door MUST be tempered, correct? My advise is to find a commercial door that you like the glass panels in, then order replacement panels. They will be double pane and tempered, and much cheaper than custom made units.

John

[lowell holmes]

John, those are two fine looking doors.

I appreciate door making, I made the front and back doors for our house. I had a three vertical panel front door that rotted and did not want to loose the leaded glass, so I made a replacement door.

I then decided I needed a half glass back door. I used tempered glass to meet local requirements. My back door is designed to withstand hurricane force winds.
We live in Galveston County, Texas. Storm codes require the tempered glass. The door probably weighs 140 pounds.

[David Boardman]

I actually do know that, only because I just had to replace the front panel of a commercial property I bought because the panel was not tempered. It was also 50 years old. That said I have never had to order glass in the way I will have to do it for this project. I don't mind paying for custom cuts, this will be the last door I make for my home so I'm not too worried about budget. Also the 60 bdft of white oak plus the glass will not set me back nearly as bad as it would to buy one at Home Depot or something.

[jack forsberg]

this is how i like to build doors who mouldings that are not cope and stick and can not be kicked in


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0afkRbPAkgA

[Wayne Lomman]

Use quarter sawn white oak or better especially if your hickory is as good as the stuff they try to sell us here as tool handles. (How does anyone make it last more than 5 minutes?) My preference is only use laminated/staved stock as a last resort. I recommend traditional mortise and tenon rather than loose tenon joints. If you are concerned about timber movement, make sure your design allows for it. On the glass issue, we can use either tempered glass or laminated glass. Tempered you have to order it, laminated they cut it on the spot. I would certainly recommend double glazing. Cheers

[John TenEyck]

Jack, I'm having trouble understanding the details of how the panel is held. Do you have a cross sectional drawing of how it all fits together, or some still shots? The video is moving too quickly and even when I stop it I still can't see the details. I'm very interested in learning how you do this, because security is one of the things I am most concerned about with large panel doors like the one I showed above. Thanks.

ohn

[jack forsberg]

Jack, I'm having trouble understanding the details of how the panel is held. Do you have a cross sectional drawing of how it all fits together, or some still shots? The video is moving too quickly and even when I stop it I still can't see the details. I'm very interested in learning how you do this, because security is one of the things I am most concerned about with large panel doors like the one I showed above. Thanks.

ohn
all i have is this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1UsBnFW5Pw

[jack forsberg]

Jack, I'm having trouble understanding the details of how the panel is held. Do you have a cross sectional drawing of how it all fits together, or some still shots? The video is moving too quickly and even when I stop it I still can't see the details. I'm very interested in learning how you do this, because security is one of the things I am most concerned about with large panel doors like the one I showed above. Thanks.

ohn
not a believer in IG glass ether .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y9UZ5Me3dk

[John TenEyck]

Thanks very much for the follow-up Jack. I still have to draw it out to figure out how it works, but I've got a much better grasp of your method now.

John

[John TenEyck]

Good point, Wayne, laminated glass is OK here, too.

John

[Mel Fulks]

Used to do something similar to that ,but mainly for wood panels. Door made with all square edges. Each opening had slot run all round center of perimeter. Spline put in slot is same thickness as panel tongue. Apply the wide moulding to one side. Turn door over ,drop in panel, install moulding. Many times panels were same thickness as door and made with two "back to back" panels.

[mreza Salav]

Those are nice doors John.
There is a lot to learn in building an exterior door (door, jamb, weather seals, lights/windows, etc). There are many people here with plenty of experience to learn from. I used that wealth of knowledge
and built our entry unit a few years ago. You can find that thread and see the process.
My suggestion is:
- do stave core instead of solid material.
- I used ready made glass units (for commercial doors) that did a special order through the door manufacturing company.
- Think carefully about the seals all around, threshold too.
- I used double floating panels with 1/2" rigid foam in between them for insulation (it gets pretty cold here in Alberta).
- I do have the big domino but still would use big hefty tenons instead (my door is 42"x96"x2.25" and guess around 200lb).
- Think about stain/pain and maintenance of it too.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Mreza. I remember your entry door, and all the other incredible work you did building your house. Amazing work.

I agree about using stave core construction. Wayne's recommendation to only use stave core as a "last resort" makes me wonder what we're missing. Of course it takes longer to build; from that perspective one might understand doing it only as a last resort. But from a stability and conservation of materials standpoint, I see only benefits. Wayne? I recently was in The Breakers in Newport, RI. Having just finished the exterior door I showed above I looked at about every door I saw in that amazing place, as well as in a couple of the other "cottages" I went through. Everyone looked to be stave core construction as evidenced by the 3/16" - 1/4" thick veneer skins you could see when looking at the edges of the doors, including most of the entry doors. The Breakers was built in the late 1800's. I was very surprised to see that, actually. I didn't think the glues they had back then would ever survive that long on the entry doors. Of course it's possible all those entry doors were replaced at some point; I just don't know.

Of course this will be controversial but think about it before you (in the general sense, not you specifically, Mreza) react. Joinery is not a major concern if you believe glue is what carries the load. With both a cope and stick door, as well as the shallow mortise and stub tenon approach I showed, you have a lot of surface area to spread the load over. If you glue those mating surfaces then all the joinery is doing is resisting the shear load. I glue in the loose tenons I use, but my mentor doesn't even bother to glue in the dowels he uses. He's built many hundreds of doors and shipped them all over the USA w/o any joinery failures, so it's hard to argue with his approach even though I'm not going to do it with the doors I build. Through mortise and tenon joints like Jack showed sure look nice, and were and would still be critical if you didn't use glue, but are more about following tradition than being necessary in a well fitted, glued construction. It might also make for a good sales pitch. For historical restoration, sure, for other applications, I don't see the benefit.

Just my take on it.

John

[Andrew Hughes]

You guys sure go through a lot just to make a door. It must be because of your climate.Ive made several doors with clear Vg Fir. My doors have stayed flat square straight and true.I did have one that weeped pitch.I guess living here in So Cal has its advantages.:)

[Joe Calhoon]

My suggestion for a white oak door would be solid. As long as the door is not over thick or oversize you will be fine. 8/4 white oak if seasoned properly is very stable. Especially quartered or rift. We also build a lot of doors in solid VG fir and that is another good material. We build with cores when using unstable material or for large and thick doors. I do not care for stave core with a veneer for exterior doors because the thin edge of the veneer is to the weather. Better is a solid 3 layer construction with the center core rift or quartered. Better if all 3 layers are rift and quartered. Note – for 1 ¾” thick the 3 layer method is not good, but for 2 ¼” and up works good.
If you do stave core best is same species core with vertical and rift grain opposed. Make sure the skins are the same MC.
Here is an example of stiles on a 9 ½’ historic door that is only 1 5/8” thick. This was a bad situation because we had to follow the original for thickness without removing the jambs that were an integral part of the old store front. We did use stave here as it seemed the best choice and they stayed very straight. All rails are normally solid or 3 layer laminated to keep no glue joints to the weather.
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Here are some other cores we use. LVL works well with unstable material like barnwood. With LVL and other man made cores you have to be careful going wide because there is no movement in the core.
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[Joe Calhoon]

For joinery, I think true mortise and tenon is the best but not always the most practical if you do this for a living. We have a tenoner, sliding table shaper, Maka and a hollow chisel mortiser but still labor intensive to do true M&T on everything. We do try to use M&T for historic or special work but have built doors the last 42 years using through tenon, slot and tenon, loose tenon and dowel construction with no issues on any. With loose tenons and dowels use a rot resistant material like White Oak or Sipo. I think the large Dominos in Sipo are fine for doors.

365634
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365638
365639

[Mel Fulks]

Interesting stuff but I have several different takes. Don't like the look of three layer. As a mere employee I've always guaranteed every door I made. Only problems came from failure to seal bottom; stopped that with paper....stuck on reading NO waranty for anything if bottom of door is not painted. I like LVL cores,but never had any problem with door straightness whether solid or cored. For many years I made cores out of NE white pine, no problems. I've found that the best way to make straight engineered stiles is glue skins with a NO WATER GLUE. Perfectly straight cores can bow with yellow glue that is even slightly thinned with water or UF water based glue. Certainly not all wih water in glue bow but any is too many. Many of the doors I've made came to us because all competitors refused job. Largest were two painted exterior doors for a hospital used as a pair. They are under cover. Opening 84" wide and 10 feet tall solid fir. The glue joint to weather comment is hardest to understand,as I have had no problem. But I insist on hollow glue joints and have retro fitted several jointers with a calibrated outfeed table that can be quickly (as different from eventually) set for hollow joint and then perfectly reset to "straight".

[Joe Calhoon]

I agree with that Mel. A stiff glue is better for skins. Tightbond is flexible and if you stack a skinned core glued with TB horizontal between 2 horses it will bow down overnight. turn it over and it will bow the other way. That said we still use TB3 a lot with no issues. Some shops in warm climates have had problems with TB3. Especially under dark finishes.
the 3 layer is not easy to look at on edge but we use this mostly on our Euro doors that have rebates and gaskets in the edge so you don't see it. these doors get very thick up to 3" plus and solid material that thick is not easy to come by here.
I am a minority on not liking the 1/8" or so skin to the weather. Most custom builders use stave core solid or man made with 1/8" skins. I have seen some failures with this though and not real excited about this construction. Great for tall interior doors though.

[Mel Fulks]

Joe, I'm convinced that "flat gluing" ,such as gluing the skins requires a no water glue. But I also think that flat gluing requires glue on both surfaces and that can be messy and wasteful with yellow glue. No problem for a couple of doors but not really practical for quantity. I like UF glue for curved stuff and have used it ,years ago, for skins. But to over come the effects of the water we made the skins thick then re machined the stiles after a couple of days. Wasn't really practical but we did it and tried to get paid. That 800 two part UF gets good reviews but I confess I have never tried it. At times a Ive made extra stiles and used the bowed ones for top rails and intermediate rails.

[mreza Salav]

On my door cores were glued using epoxy but the skin (all Honduras Mahogany) was glued using TB3. The door bows slightly (about 3/32"-1/8" over its length) in summer and goes flat again in winter. I was surprised first but now have learned it just plays with season/sun.

[Mel Fulks]

Mreza, is it dark in color and facing sun? Or not...and you think the change is just air temp related?

[mreza Salav]

It is dark and it does get sun/heat.

365677

[John TenEyck]

That was an odd choice, Mreza. I would have used TB III for the core and epoxy or PRG to glue on the skins, and epoxy for the joinery. TB III creeps pretty badly as the temp. gets hot, and a dark colored door facing the sun does get hot. Fortunately, your door is just moving and the skins aren't coming off.

Don't put a storm door over it!

John

[peter gagliardi]

And those ^^^^^^ are just some of the reasons I too only do solid doors. I have laminated with solid lumber on one door because of unavailable stock thickness in 20 + years. 3 1/4" quartered white oak.
Every additional glue joint is a potential failure plane in exterior work.
Hickory is NOT a wood I would use for an exterior door.
Almost no rot resistance, and huge movement with humidity swings.

[Joe Calhoon]

[QUOTE=Mel Fulks;2715383]Joe, I'm convinced that "flat gluing" ,such as gluing the skins requires a no water glue. But I also think that flat gluing requires glue on both surfaces and that can be messy and wasteful with yellow glue. No problem for a couple of doors but not really practical for quantity. I like UF glue for curved stuff and have used it ,years ago, for skins. But to over come the effects of the water we made the skins thick then re machined the stiles after a couple of days. Wasn't really practical but we did it and tried to get paid. That 800 two part UF gets good reviews but I confess I have never tried it. At times a Ive made extra stiles and used the bowed ones for top rails and intermediate rails.[/


We coat both surfaces Mel. We have a pressure pot with a roller that is adjustable for flow and easy to get the right amount on. That's one of the reasons we still use TB for skins, convenience. I will use epoxy or Unibond 800 if bad to the weather. Basically any stile and rail construction is not good to the weather and try to push for plank style in that case. We do a lot of stile and rail with plank panels and developed a system for the horizontal rails to shed water. That is a big issue with panels to the weather.

We played with thick skins for a while. As you describe, glue the faces on and let them set for a couple days then face carefully and back through the four sider for final S4S. It works but hard to keep the skin thickness balanced. We went back to going for final thickness at skin glue up. And on big jobs we would have some reject stiles to turn into rails. Stave core - skin is a great method for grain matching. Cherry is a species you can build solid with but 8/4 usually ends up with sap on one face so easier to go for skins.

[Joe Calhoon]

And those ^^^^^^ are just some of the reasons I too only do solid doors. I have laminated with solid lumber on one door because of unavailable stock thickness in 20 + years. 3 1/4" quartered white oak.
Every additional glue joint is a potential failure plane in exterior work.
Hickory is NOT a wood I would use for an exterior door.
Almost no rot resistance, and huge movement with humidity swings.

That is the truth Peter. At one time I thought stave core was the answer to everything. I consider our 3 layer lamination the same as solid wood with no glue joints in the sticking. You east coast guys have good sources for 10 and 12 quarter material. Its a desert here in Colorado for that thickness.

[mreza Salav]

That was an odd choice, Mreza. I would have used TB III for the core and epoxy or PRG to glue on the skins, and epoxy for the joinery. TB III creeps pretty badly as the temp. gets hot, and a dark colored door facing the sun does get hot. Fortunately, your door is just moving and the skins aren't coming off.

Don't put a storm door over it!

John

I used epoxy for tenons too; TBIII only for skins. My thinking was that the core being being quarter saw vs flat saw of skin might need a little bit of flex for movement, hence the choice of TBIII.
Yes, the door gets hot even to touch in summer.

[Mel Fulks]

For a full sun dark color door ,I think Mreza's door is doing pretty well.

[John TenEyck]

Joe, Unibond 800 has water in it, too. It's just that's in the resin part already, to which you add the catalyst powder. With Weldwood PRG everything is already in the powder to which you add water to activate it. In the end, I think they both have about the same amount of water in them when mixed.

I haven't built many doors but I've done a lot of veneering with PRG on much thinner stock than a door member. I won't pretend I've never had anything bow, but it's been very rare. I favor composite materials over solid stock for stave core construction because it's inherently more neurtral in behavior. I veneer both sides and use a vacuum bag, so everything is always balanced. When it comes out of the bag, at final thickness, I make sure to keep the panels or door members on edge or stood up so air can freely circulate around all sides. Problems have been very few.

The one glue I won't use for shop sawn veneer is PVAc. I want a rigid glue line between the veneer and substrate, one that won't creep over time or let loose if the temp. gets above 150F. That means only UF or epoxy.

Personally, I wouldn't use hickory for an exterior door either, but I'm not sure it makes much difference as long as the finish is sound. White oak may not rot if water gets under the finish, but it sure looks awful in short order. Once we get past survival of the construction, finish integrity is key to any door looking good over the long haul. I understand why a commercial shop wouldn't use hickory or other low rot resistant woods, but for a small shop or hobbiest willing to take the extra steps required to seal the wood wherever water can get to it's probably fine. On the Sapele door I showed above, the moldings are glued in with epoxy (and no nails) and finished on the inside as well the exterior. The giant dado for the hidden bottom seal is similarly finished. These were steps some folks wouldn't go to but I think make a real difference on how the door will look in 10 years, assuming the homeowner maintains the finish. We'll see.

John

[lowell holmes]

I used VG fir to build my front door about 15 years ago. It is 1 3/4" thick, has 6 low panels and three vertical leaded glass panes in the upper portion.
It is a painted door and has held up well.

I also made my back door, 1 3/4" thick, fir, top half has an armored glass pane. Bottom half has a pet door in it. It also has held up well.
I think fir is superior for moisture resistance.
I have my daddy's Black and Decker hinge mortising kit which makes mortising the hinges a snap.

They were both fun projects.

[lowell holmes]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2012/04/05/how-to-build-your-own-front-door

John, check out this article.

[John TenEyck]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2012/04/05/how-to-build-your-own-front-door

John, check out this article.


Thanks Lowell. I remember that article; just went and read it again. I like some of his methods, but not all. We've already talked about solid stock vs. stave core so no point in plowing that ground any more. Clearly both work and people can choose which they prefer based on their beliefs, equipment, track record, etc. Gluing up the door before finishing the panels ain't happening in my shop. That alone is a strong reason to use glued in moldings to hold the panels, or Jack's approach for flat panels. But overall, the author makes a good point of demonstrating that it's not all that hard to build a serviceable door. Of course, he didn't talk much at all about weather seals and sills, nor building a frame to incorporate them into a weather tight unit. That alone is a whole topic for discussion.

For me, exterior doors was a challenge worth taking on. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning a lot. To date, I've been extra cautious and extra thorough. So far, so good.

John

[jack forsberg]

Thanks Lowell. I remember that article; just went and read it again. I like some of his methods, but not all. We've already talked about solid stock vs. stave core so no point in plowing that ground any more. Clearly both work and people can choose which they prefer based on their beliefs, equipment, track record, etc. Gluing up the door before finishing the panels ain't happening in my shop. That alone is a strong reason to use glued in moldings to hold the panels, or Jack's approach for flat panels. But overall, the author makes a good point of demonstrating that it's not all that hard to build a serviceable door. Of course, he didn't talk much at all about weather seals and sills, nor building a frame to incorporate them into a weather tight unit. That alone is a whole topic for discussion.

For me, exterior doors was a challenge worth taking on. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning a lot. To date, I've been extra cautious and extra thorough. So far, so good.

John


Hi john this is what i do for solid wood back to back panels for seals. the tin foil is for reflective heat .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMUlIk1u6A

[jack forsberg]

Thanks Lowell. I remember that article; just went and read it again. I like some of his methods, but not all. We've already talked about solid stock vs. stave core so no point in plowing that ground any more. Clearly both work and people can choose which they prefer based on their beliefs, equipment, track record, etc. Gluing up the door before finishing the panels ain't happening in my shop. That alone is a strong reason to use glued in moldings to hold the panels, or Jack's approach for flat panels. But overall, the author makes a good point of demonstrating that it's not all that hard to build a serviceable door. Of course, he didn't talk much at all about weather seals and sills, nor building a frame to incorporate them into a weather tight unit. That alone is a whole topic for discussion.

For me, exterior doors was a challenge worth taking on. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning a lot. To date, I've been extra cautious and extra thorough. So far, so good.

John


on thick doors and jams this is what we do for thermal


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raDxhxPaIko

[jack forsberg]

Thanks Lowell. I remember that article; just went and read it again. I like some of his methods, but not all. We've already talked about solid stock vs. stave core so no point in plowing that ground any more. Clearly both work and people can choose which they prefer based on their beliefs, equipment, track record, etc. Gluing up the door before finishing the panels ain't happening in my shop. That alone is a strong reason to use glued in moldings to hold the panels, or Jack's approach for flat panels. But overall, the author makes a good point of demonstrating that it's not all that hard to build a serviceable door. Of course, he didn't talk much at all about weather seals and sills, nor building a frame to incorporate them into a weather tight unit. That alone is a whole topic for discussion.

For me, exterior doors was a challenge worth taking on. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning a lot. To date, I've been extra cautious and extra thorough. So far, so good.

John

here is how i seal door to jam


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_MfFwFsNq0

[lowell holmes]

I think veneering an exterior door is a poor choice. Every veneered door that I have had eventually failed.
My solid fir doors are over 20 Years old and are nowhere near failure.

If you have a door that is subject to the afternoon sun in Galveston County, Texas, the veneer will fail. I speak from experience.

I have had commercial solid doors split when in the afternoon sun.

My solid fir doors do not split.

Well, that's just my experience.

Of course, everyone does not care to build a door.

[jack forsberg]

I think veneering an exterior door is a poor choice. Every veneered door that I have had eventually failed.
My solid fir doors are over 20 Years old and are nowhere near failure.

If you have a door that is subject to the afternoon sun in Galveston County, Texas, the veneer will fail. I speak from experience.

I have had commercial solid doors split when in the afternoon sun.

My solid fir doors do not split.

Well, that's just my experience.

Of course, everyone does not care to build a door.


here in Ottawa Canada we have some real temperature extremes. 60degs Celsius. In mid winter the out side temperature gets to - 30c . Solid wood doors up here pop like Orville Redenbacher. Douglas Fir rots with in only a few years so i don't use it . old growth white pine if i can find IT IS BETTER. VG old growth DF is way more costly then Mahogany a much better chose up here as a lasting wood . Doors on the parliament buildings down town Ottawa are stave core and over 130 years old . i do not think that the glues they use would be anywhere near what they are to day,Yet there they are. They face south and are under a bell tower with some protection . Now had they not been maintained with paint over the years they may not have lasted . If you don't maintain woods doors there not much hope in them lasting long no matter how you build them . On my shop I have dark doors facing west so i can show people what a doors goes through . Problems show up in a year. Much of the movement in stave core is not letting the cores rest for a week or two before flatting again or discarding rejects for the skins. Venere skins in excess of an eighth of an inch tend to behave more like solid and so I keep skins maximum thickness to .125 or less . On the exterior I never have skin with face joints on wide rails alway a wide board . I have found that the belection molding that's rabbeted the edge protects X exposed joints very nicely . hard square edges that are not pitched to drain in these locations contribution to the failure there . Even with square edge work for exterior I do you put at least 5° slope to the frame on horizontal elements . I use water based glues TBIII although UR is a good glue too i stooped using it years ago . Polyurethane glue i avoid like the black death. This is the stave core we just finished this week on a registered house in the historic district. City covered $5000 worth of the cost through their heritage grant program .365784

[Joe Calhoon]

Like Peter mentioned stave core - veneer is not the answer to everything. The 9 1/2' tall thin fir door we did veneer. Its north facing with a fair overhang. I went through a pile of solid VG I had here and could not come up with any boards that would make a solid stile that length. If you make custom doors for a living you need to be well versed on a few construction methods. I think my shop associate and myself working part time last year only built 50 or so doors. In years past with a crew many more than that. You soon find out what works and what does not in your local climate.

Fir will rot in a wet environment. Its dry here in Colorado so its a good choice here and VG fir is easy to work. And it fits in well with the mountain architecture. We use a lot of mahogany also. The pine available now days is not the same as what door builders were using 100 years ago. Heartwood pine with a tight grain will do well to the weather. We built a commercial retail building 20 years ago to match the local historic mining camp architecture. The wood facade has held up well except for the window sills. I made those out of some tight grain Ponderosa I had that thought they would do well. Not!! I seem to recall there was some sapwood.

Here is a picture of some Honduras Mahogany doors we made in 1979. East facing with a small overhang. The owner has done a good job of keeping them up.

365782

[Mel Fulks]

I still have a lot of confidence in NE white pine (Pinus strobus). But company buyers without strict oversight will often buy something 'kinda like it'. Lots of complex veneered furniture still around because of its stability; and that was all air dried wood. And lots of old sash and doors. Agree you don't get a lot of special doors per year, but I did once make 35 unassisted for one house.

[jack forsberg]

I still have a lot of confidence in NE white pine (Pinus strobus). But company buyers without strict oversight will often buy something 'kinda like it'. Lots of complex veneered furniture still around because of its stability; and that was all air dried wood. And lots of old sash and doors. Agree you don't get a lot of special doors per year, but I did once make 35 unassisted for one house.
When I find good white pine I do use it . A friend of mine is dropping a couple 6 foot diameter trees that I'm having him cut for a grade . Should keep me in stock for a long time . I only build specialty doors so volumes are small but quality high

[Joe Calhoon]

Here are a couple good examples of how not to build. A long time contractor customer brought these in a couple months ago to have us make new doors to replace these. These were only 20 years old. We built new ones out of Mahogany. The first door was made with 2 layers of plywood core with 1/8" skins. The lower door I think from a different maker was one layer of 3/4" ply with thick skins. The biggest problem is they used Poplar. The top door got moisture in the lock box causing major problems with skin and core delaminating. Biggest issue was water getting in the horizontal rail grooves causing more delimitation and rotting. The bottom door was a 6 light french door before we took it apart to salvage the IG. It fell apart as we were removing the glass. Amazingly we were able to use the IG in the new door.
Again this door was Poplar but the major problem was using loose stops inside and out. Water gets under these no matter how well glued and will fail fast on horizontal pieces. This is a classic mistake I see a lot with inexperienced door and window builders who don't want to go to the expense of counter profile cutters. Don't ask how I know this.:)
365785
365786

[John TenEyck]

Thanks very much Jack for taking the time to post and being willing to share those videos. I appreciate not only the how's but also the why's of why you choose to do things certain ways. Understanding allows one to develop solutions that work for them, in their situation and location. Thank you.

I really like the foam and foil system you are using between the door panels. How are you gluing the foil over the back of the outer panel and gap where you use it as a weather seal?

Any idea of what glue was used on those historic doors that have survived over 100 years? As I mentioned above, I saw lots of stave core doors in the mansions at Newport, RI, many built in the 1860 - 1885 time frame, still looking to be in topnotch condition.

John

[Joe Calhoon]

John, I have run across a few historic doors here built that way and they have done OK but in pretty protected areas. Our courthouse has 8' tall oak interior doors from the 1890s that have some sort of hollow construction that I have never been able to figure out. For big doors they are very light which is a plus. Has anyone ever run into this type door before and know the construction?

[John TenEyck]

That's interesting, Joe. The exterior door I removed when I installed the Sapele door I showed above turned out to be hollow core construction. The thing didn't weigh 50 lbs; mine must have weighed at least 120 lb. We took it apart just to see how it was constructed. It was shocking to see it as nothing more than a light wood perimeter frame, some intermediate framing where some original lites or panels once were, and some blocking where the lockset and hinges went, and then the skins, pretty much like a cheap interior hollow core door. The owner said it was original to the house, and looked to be, which was built in the 1920's IIRC. It had been modified at some point to remove the original lites or panels and some sort of coated Masonite like skin had been glued on the outside. That had buckled from weather exposure and was a real mess, but the door still closed pretty well even though water came through the old seals when rain blew against it. This door is going to be a good one to keep track of as it has no protection and faces directly West. I know the owner so I'll be able to inspect it regularly. This door is the first time using a hidden bottom seal so we'll see how that holds up over time. My initial reaction is it's a winner when dealing with an out of level stone threshold and the desire to keep the step over height to a minimum. I used a 1/4" ADA compliant sill with it.

John

[jack forsberg]

Thanks very much Jack for taking the time to post and being willing to share those videos. I appreciate not only the how's but also the why's of why you choose to do things certain ways. Understanding allows one to develop solutions that work for them, in their situation and location. Thank you.

I really like the foam and foil system you are using between the door panels. How are you gluing the foil over the back of the outer panel and gap where you use it as a weather seal?

Any idea of what glue was used on those historic doors that have survived over 100 years? As I mentioned above, I saw lots of stave core doors in the mansions at Newport, RI, many built in the 1860 - 1885 time frame, still looking to be in topnotch condition.

John
I am imagine John Animal skin hide glue . The point being is that they didn't rely on the glue yet fell on the stability of the wood. I don't pretend to know a fraction of what they did, when they used to wood by the millions of cubic meters . Trees were the option back then no man made products .

[Joe Calhoon]

That's interesting, Joe. The exterior door I removed when I installed the Sapele door I showed above turned out to be hollow core construction. The thing didn't weigh 50 lbs; mine must have weighed at least 120 lb. We took it apart just to see how it was constructed. It was shocking to see it as nothing more than a light wood perimeter frame, some intermediate framing where some original lites or panels once were, and some blocking where the lockset and hinges went, and then the skins, pretty much like a cheap interior hollow core door. The owner said it was original to the house, and looked to be, which was built in the 1920's IIRC. It had been modified at some point to remove the original lites or panels and some sort of coated Masonite like skin had been glued on the outside. That had buckled from weather exposure and was a real mess, but the door still closed pretty well even though water came through the old seals when rain blew against it. This door is going to be a good one to keep track of as it has no protection and faces directly West. I know the owner so I'll be able to inspect it regularly. This door is the first time using a hidden bottom seal so we'll see how that holds up over time. My initial reaction is it's a winner when dealing with an out of level stone threshold and the desire to keep the step over height to a minimum. I used a 1/4" ADA compliant sill with it.

John

John, were they frame and panel doors? The ones in our courthouse are. I will have to get up there and take a closer look.

We have used drop bottoms and adjustable bottoms for years with success. I prefer the Swiss brand that Resource Conservation sells. We tried a Pemco on a job and not happy with that one. I actually prefer their adjustable bottom just for its simplicity but their auto bottoms are good and conform to irregular sills.
365831

[jack forsberg]

Thanks very much Jack for taking the time to post and being willing to share those videos. I appreciate not only the how's but also the why's of why you choose to do things certain ways. Understanding allows one to develop solutions that work for them, in their situation and location. Thank you.

I really like the foam and foil system you are using between the door panels. How are you gluing the foil over the back of the outer panel and gap where you use it as a weather seal?

Any idea of what glue was used on those historic doors that have survived over 100 years? As I mentioned above, I saw lots of stave core doors in the mansions at Newport, RI, many built in the 1860 - 1885 time frame, still looking to be in topnotch condition.

John
Sorry John missed the question about how I sealed the foil . I use HVAC ducting tape which is also a foil . For the flat panels . where there isn't enough room for panel foam I use Cedar lumber core . I'm not comfortable with the idea of glueing directly on foam or outsourcing products . Cedar does actually have a fairly decent thermal property and is of course rot resistant . The important thing to remember with Cedar Core is the core has to be dressed just prior to gluing . Cedars release oil's and can cause adhesion failure if surfaces are not fresh . I simply don't surface my core for two weeks after gluing and just before gluing skins . Lastly I apply glue to both surfaces skin and core. Sorry I don't have a video on YouTube but I do have one on my Instagram feed . https://www.instagram.com/p/BTbpGZBFk9I/

[John TenEyck]

Joe, I don't think it was a frame and panel door. The internal construction was just fairly light rectangular frame members around the perimeter and where the original panels were. I really have no clue how they finished it off to make it look good, but might guess that it had plywood skins cut out where the panels were and then trimmed out with moldings.

I used a Pemco hidden bottom seal on this door. I knew nothing about them until the guy who I learned from told me about them.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_SDK_1sW4ui7_DsNCOKhrkqc6zFcAiWeBHNkWLchcUQPY7bG1x UonBVgM_-2qeygc3swey8YIf15CCZjMGZwP5g8qWQSS4QgsP3cMYtNE1QGv S_zTSJrBOF2yedDHk0dVWfaaiAnBijqozSL7bAqPHI9LBLkH4n-FLfiCOJZucW21vwGP6eRFkkcsG1R3qWheSavufsLkGybORYD5a 7iyNXBLBiqFVJamXhVUOg9bAKK1LNKEygSlSUjAJUZ_S8_lI6G _Etv3OVHFWWN_tCccICv5aAh3px0iFq6MZr_OgcZhpBmnpu_xs 1scpFbC3rR_8gCtkMLBKqexCjwX7UUzQ6Un5wXjitrN053wUgL GtrM4jDXQpyxQaxdvQnxkXuQznXldgQwjrNvGCdp77Her1RDIH vxV2vP3FINfZdFlDPb5xhaZByT_kCsa6cuv7nWDyj2P9x9nmLR 9ZU-7HVB9UdO3k-zFRjtZYyzFGUYnhyLaTDKN12IE1XXxkgDS4jC-Op5qYyioTU9xTlIREQPV7kqPCiAs1ZWwO6pRud8sOmsVUqIImJ XcSNvR140a6XMxVc-puFASaaYh6__NvSEzLEYzQE-Gryik5cljYhZgfmEBQHggFqA7siFXqpmR1sDPV1viwPnCeetCo Wdx7H7YRiPt_SLk17soYwN7BsbtvsXP8Y=w437-h328-no

Very cool how the amount of drop is adjustable:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GCDw_d4UIOFFIzh_IKRzLzrUD-Vgokrj0n_iUvIG4GHYEFqE3jTwRDzMuCKfbX_e2PnybVUcnFsO LrycpEd37oL1hkwx11ejWXZ4-C6pdNJkr5jd1BWrQgv7ZnJfO6yYHTl7wHZvD-x0oAYHegUO_4z2sSAFU6Z_cZegdb44a2x7Blpk6tgzyJCXP-5AloYE1YDt_n9ZpSyg_tIKX_p9NWkQN0S42ahSf6wsOG29YQMi jIfy5XZLcrwNAaqOTgSmTe6i82yVfNUkMZcn7MgcgeTWdljpcs knb2eQ7Cj8_fBrGCHb0ssvq7ctGHPoe0VVKJVUZatS7nyWrlFM 8KSk1QHPtnYzZv2oSPFM8VwYHWzkxQ7QZjEC0a41ogP4CDSd6Z TsmBwSpq1Gq1cR7_6Acc7B5KnwhsHMFWWQebgNt9VxqEbr16if elMDcDb3bLRgqnGzGn29SJHyQgTbRSKMiguaWETSAsuXusdpe-QvmqIGm3o3O2RUQaucDpIP3p4RcV0-yFGbZqJu3q9USteZLyGcApAH4QAKQcZRPMFzwtvSeKDLbkcmXz divFNlVmJcBcP0Oj_xSivc_wvRTHnZD-yOIGYtpdvMUw-poQBRtcB5SX1YA8lrUORpIrVUVDhUCVGTHiZzzJWNBkIIcRZs7 yd6gTy0XMVcZ2lTEIhLQ7w9g7Y=w437-h328-no

And how it accommodates the angle of this sill being about 1/4" lower on the lock side:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CIw-kOozeovL0sqrpvqW4iLETv7jxgJ8Hg_IdGIoQoB0x7Dxeuf8Vs NUTLgRLJYnP7WjlH1cdCAayNcPSrxTYd8UQOsB9WfuKeB0buK6 lXIYLvFzW4blyjlP-yRAkq0SgIoQ_P7L0oaROtfZkTIJjcgVIPa6ajIre5VTjqACjK0 5sb215-IQ0AINMChkIQOvUsGk8elJCSbbR6lDa6GaW9bGXh_8k8lA1VTO i7tv416515aOG8yvqC5xqpn5vQNqCPmLwh1mBqCiNkr-KKskFp8Q259upAGwBYO4w8jgPaV625dwveBsaQzq7ok83UnGjE lcO9O2cL12NnDQGrL4FOqmCdM9KUU9UeS1lXV5J-l3RuHuzloFeVt4Tbu88Hsgudi64abHOYRQ_o7Eie5KOyhy6LA1 yC_azAo4ZYIlttLr4N-syphTrK6mqR6XswBPIcrxfCH_p-x_Uhyy2Hfkvks4Vb3RWNv2J2YKUQN_7S7A8b6eZW0wh4TM5Fsh Fpkv8XD3Q3ywoWav0Sromeoy2cceI99vdL5bJaUA0BoRJF7fio T5KFDf2W-aVUfVmibxyYkLnTZkO7RiQ-rJFU2fT6bnWY1zd2CAb1m48KT5UtkaWiTy1lU2Uu0_rA3mnRjH ccc_pPxfMNJU9iRAYsZGvb78AZHb-a5zFZAhErPNP30mIY=w838-h628-no

You can't actually see them in this photo, but I put weep holes in the reveal of the bottom moldings to drain out water that gets between the raised panel and molding. I debated whether to seal the panels to the molding with silicone caulking, but decided against that. I ended up making the inside moldings removable so that the panels can be pulled out for maintenance, and the weep holes can be cleaned out at the same time, if needed. Have you ever done anything like this? The owner hasn't seen any water drain out of them yet, nor did I see any evidence of it on the face of the door. The panels fit tightly into the moldings and appear to be shedding water well so far. This door gets rain directly against it sometimes so it's going to be a good test case for several ideas I used.

John

[Joe Calhoon]

John, you should try the Swiss drop bottoms from Resource Conservation. They function better than Pemco's and don't require a huge groove in the door bottom. The best drop seals are made by another Swiss company.
http://planet.ag/en/
They have one that goes down and sideways at the same time to seal against the jamb legs. They were trying to set up a dealership in the US but don't think it ever got off the ground.

We use drain slots in our doors and windows. I have a poor quality U tube here to explain that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h4w4JGFXXO8

I don't believe in sealing the innards of doors tight, you are just inviting mold and rot. Wood needs to breathe and IG set in a frame needs to expel vapor and frost from cold temps outside.
I am away from home at the moment and don't have access to all my photos. We have several ways to deal with water running down panels into the bottom groove. Depending on the exposure the drain slots and caulk grooves in the sticking or moulding are usually enough. Applied mouldings are always a problem in bad exposures and I prefer a reverse square edge cope and stick for inner door surfaces. Confusing, but maybe this picture explains.

365876
This way there are no grooves in horizontal rails to collect water.
We have another method for flat and planked panels to expel water. The horizontal rails get a tongue and small bevel to the outside and the panel bottom has a groove to saddle over this. Don't have a good picture to show this. Here is a bottom rail but not showing the panel. The angled piece is a cross buck on this massive pair of 4' x 8' tall doors.
365877

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Joe. I really like the idea of the hidden bottom seal flaring out to seal against the frame legs as it drops; I'll have to look into that Swiss company. That's the one place the Pemco hidden bottom seal doesn't seal, at the frame. You have the side seal but there is still a little pathway for air to leak past, which Jack may have solved with his approach although that's not very attractive when the door is open. Sometime when you have a chance I'd really like to see in detail how you deal with water getting between the panel and sticking. You can send me a PM if you'd like, or to jteneyck54@live.com, or continue to post here, as you choose. Many thanks for your being willing to help educate me and others.

And you are right, those are massive doors.

Oh, one more comment. I was out yesterday to look at some potential work for some very well healed clients. There was a beautiful mahogany front door with a big leaded glass panel, flanked by two side lights. When I went to close the door it clanked and then reluctantly shut. Of course that got my attention, so I looked more closely and saw the reveal was much tighter at the top on the lock side than on the hinge side, and the opposite at the bottom. I opened the door and pushed a little on the edge of the door, and could easily see the hinges were sloppy. They were 4" ball bearing hinges but the pins didn't fit tightly into the leaves. I couldn't tell who the manufacturer of the hinges was but I sure wouldn't have used them. The mullion the hinges were anchored to were only an inch thick, too, which looked pretty light to me although I didn't see any flex in them. I asked the GC about the door and he said the whole unit was going back. Seems someone didn't know left handed from right handed. He said he was going to ask for better quality hinges, too. It was a $5000 door. Not outrageous, though it was unfinished, but still, I would have expected better.

John

[Warren Lake]

there is a fair bit to all this starting with stave or not, stave according to the old guy and I think they made their staves different, glue them up then ip them on the bandsaw then reglue them. I notice on a door i have here from a door maker the stave core is in finger joint sections, styles are perfectly straight and its never been stored properly and no finish on it. John up here a door like you describe is 15-20k canadian with the sidelights and all. No one has talked about the bow that is supposed to be in the lock set style to keep a preload when it is closed, just one more thing to build in if you do it that way. Not sure how that is done with stave core easy enough on your jointer with solid.

[Mel Fulks]

Warren, I hadnt thought of that lock pressure thing since I was a kid ...trying to open a door. Think weather stripping and dead bolts have made the good bow ...bow out! I would point out to anyone starting to try stave cores that they have to be machined straight; I mention that because I can remember as a beginner thinking that a bowed stile would be corrected by good straight cauls or jigs when gluing the skins. That doesn't work. The job of machineing the cores has to be done by someone with SKILL, and the ones with skill usually enjoy a chance to use it.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe. I really like the idea of the hidden bottom seal flaring out to seal against the frame legs as it drops; I'll have to look into that Swiss company. That's the one place the Pemco hidden bottom seal doesn't seal, at the frame. You have the side seal but there is still a little pathway for air to leak past, which Jack may have solved with his approach although that's not very attractive when the door is open. Sometime when you have a chance I'd really like to see in detail how you deal with water getting between the panel and sticking. You can send me a PM if you'd like, or to jteneyck54@live.com, or continue to post here, as you choose. Many thanks for your being willing to help educate me and others.

And you are right, those are massive doors.

Oh, one more comment. I was out yesterday to look at some potential work for some very well healed clients. There was a beautiful mahogany front door with a big leaded glass panel, flanked by two side lights. When I went to close the door it clanked and then reluctantly shut. Of course that got my attention, so I looked more closely and saw the reveal was much tighter at the top on the lock side than on the hinge side, and the opposite at the bottom. I opened the door and pushed a little on the edge of the door, and could easily see the hinges were sloppy. They were 4" ball bearing hinges but the pins didn't fit tightly into the leaves. I couldn't tell who the manufacturer of the hinges was but I sure wouldn't have used them. The mullion the hinges were anchored to were only an inch thick, too, which looked pretty light to me although I didn't see any flex in them. I asked the GC about the door and he said the whole unit was going back. Seems someone didn't know left handed from right handed. He said he was going to ask for better quality hinges, too. It was a $5000 door. Not outrageous, though it was unfinished, but still, I would have expected better.

John

John,
In general North American style doors are hard to seal well, especially meeting pairs.That is what drove me to building German - Central European rebated doors. Our door systems for that usually have 3 gaskets all the way around including th bottom. I could not find any good pictures of mine on the phone but here are door corner samples from a German shop I was in a few years ago.
365908

Ball bearing butts are a problem with most made in the East. On real high end we use Rocky Mountain hinges. They have to be fitter individually as every one is a little different. We used to allow 3/32" gap but for several years now 1/8" because of the decline in hinge quality. It takes a good finish carpenter to hang heavy doors. Knowing where to block and screw on the hinge side is key. Big doors always pull at the top.

Good door building is a lot more than how you make the joints and stiles. Finish, hardware, installation and sealing is the tricky part.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Joe. I've been married to a German for over 35 years; after being there on vacation and for business probably at least 50 times I'm very familiar with Euro style doors and windows. Far superior to ours in both function and weather tightness. Not as attractive to my eye as our more simple designs, but no leakage is beautiful, too.

John

[Warren Lake]

thanks Mel,

geez one word has two different meanings no wonder I get confused at times :) And why is there a b in climb? ive yet to try a core thing and want to. Would be neat to see how the material reacts to jointing and planing compared to solid. You know I admire your command of solid material. Thinking about my mothers 50 year old pine windows, fall storm window goes on and that three holes and flap arm to close them off. that was some high tech stuff.




this is vague I know but what do we think of door thicknesses?



cabinets like Kitchen door stuff I use 7/8" min as it works to my face frame on inset with bead, we were taught to use 3/4 and most kitchen door makers are 13/16, of course 4/4 is a shadow of what it was making 7/8 more of a bother
I dont like 3/4 doors ive opened kitchens with a magnetic latch at one end and on a long door felt it bend as I was pulling free of the magnet, I know there are some kitchen builders that do 1" thick doors. 7/8 can be a pain with european hinges but found a few that worked,



Armoire bookcase type doors epending on inset or have odd time partial overlay 1 1/4 - 1 3/8 more likely



Interior home door which I havent done you are 1 3/8 - 1 1/2? I should have checked this home I was in guy did a very expensive home and was mounting doors he had made poplar stained like Walnut colour, very nicely made and he used good hinges and ball catches top and bottom, doors closed with a quiet authority and no rattle and where two met they were bang on accurate held in place top and bottom.



entrance doors, 1 3/4 - 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 for some depending on cores etc


Garage doors, Joe you have made those I think



Realize all this is style length dependant, are some people doing stave stuff on interiors or only on the thicker doors?

[jack forsberg]

Thanks Joe. I really like the idea of the hidden bottom seal flaring out to seal against the frame legs as it drops; I'll have to look into that Swiss company. That's the one place the Pemco hidden bottom seal doesn't seal, at the frame. You have the side seal but there is still a little pathway for air to leak past, which Jack may have solved with his approach although that's not very attractive when the door is open. Sometime when you have a chance I'd really like to see in detail how you deal with water getting between the panel and sticking. You can send me a PM if you'd like, or to jteneyck54@live.com, or continue to post here, as you choose. Many thanks for your being willing to help educate me and others.

And you are right, those are massive doors.

Oh, one more comment. I was out yesterday to look at some potential work for some very well healed clients. There was a beautiful mahogany front door with a big leaded glass panel, flanked by two side lights. When I went to close the door it clanked and then reluctantly shut. Of course that got my attention, so I looked more closely and saw the reveal was much tighter at the top on the lock side than on the hinge side, and the opposite at the bottom. I opened the door and pushed a little on the edge of the door, and could easily see the hinges were sloppy. They were 4" ball bearing hinges but the pins didn't fit tightly into the leaves. I couldn't tell who the manufacturer of the hinges was but I sure wouldn't have used them. The mullion the hinges were anchored to were only an inch thick, too, which looked pretty light to me although I didn't see any flex in them. I asked the GC about the door and he said the whole unit was going back. Seems someone didn't know left handed from right handed. He said he was going to ask for better quality hinges, too. It was a $5000 door. Not outrageous, though it was unfinished, but still, I would have expected better.

John
Always a bit skeptical about the gizmos not being supported longer than my work . Although I'd be dead so why do I care

[Mel Fulks]

Warren,I actually looked for a way to show those those old grammar school marks that can tell you whether it's "bow" as in bent stile or "bow" like magicians do when do when they find the beautiful woman in the other trunk!
Door thickness,around here most of the shop made interior doors are 1 and 3/8 inches,but I've seen 19th century ones that were only 1 and 1/4. Have seen 1 and 3/4 used for interior,but it's pretty rare. Exterior doors are almost all 1 and 3/4 or 2 and 1/4.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe. I've been married to a German for over 35 years; after being there on vacation and for business probably at least 50 times I'm very familiar with Euro style doors and windows. Far superior to ours in both function and weather tightness. Not as attractive to my eye as our more simple designs, but no leakage is beautiful, too.

John

John,
Agree about the German style, it's their thing and it works fine in Germany. They don't like to use panel doors outside and have all kind of regulations about what is permitted in various climates and roof overhangs. I like the door designs up in the high alps. Those fit well in my area. We can do pretty much any design. Cost, lever handles and the overlay door lip are the things you must overcome to market these in the US. There is hardware available now to do flush to the jamb face. I prefer these for large heavy doors as the hinges are adjustable and strong. They have some very high tech hinges now but I like the simplicity of the old style Anuba hinge.

We have the doors and windows in our home and really enjoy the function and quality.
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[Joe Calhoon]

thanks Mel,

geez one word has two different meanings no wonder I get confused at times :) And why is there a b in climb? ive yet to try a core thing and want to. Would be neat to see how the material reacts to jointing and planing compared to solid. You know I admire your command of solid material. Thinking about my mothers 50 year old pine windows, fall storm window goes on and that three holes and flap arm to close them off. that was some high tech stuff.




this is vague I know but what do we think of door thicknesses?



cabinets like Kitchen door stuff I use 7/8" min as it works to my face frame on inset with bead, we were taught to use 3/4 and most kitchen door makers are 13/16, of course 4/4 is a shadow of what it was making 7/8 more of a bother
I dont like 3/4 doors ive opened kitchens with a magnetic latch at one end and on a long door felt it bend as I was pulling free of the magnet, I know there are some kitchen builders that do 1" thick doors. 7/8 can be a pain with european hinges but found a few that worked,



Armoire bookcase type doors epending on inset or have odd time partial overlay 1 1/4 - 1 3/8 more likely



Interior home door which I havent done you are 1 3/8 - 1 1/2? I should have checked this home I was in guy did a very expensive home and was mounting doors he had made poplar stained like Walnut colour, very nicely made and he used good hinges and ball catches top and bottom, doors closed with a quiet authority and no rattle and where two met they were bang on accurate held in place top and bottom.



entrance doors, 1 3/4 - 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 for some depending on cores etc


Garage doors, Joe you have made those I think



Realize all this is style length dependant, are some people doing stave stuff on interiors or only on the thicker doors?
Warren,
For us thickness is 1 3/8 for most historic interior doors in this area. We used to build a lot of 1 3/8 solid stile red oak interiors back in the 80s. Tough to get that thickness out of 6/4 and ended up ordering 7/4 for that. We do a lot of 1 3/4" interior doors now. 1 3/4" for small cottage style exterior doors but mostly 2 1/4" for square edge exterior doors and 68 or 78mm for the rebated Euro doors.
We used to do 1" thick cabinet doors. Blum has a hinge that works.

One more negative for doing stave core in smaller shops is the cost. It is labor intensive without industrial machines and low cost labor. Another reason I use solid whenever I can. We tried outsourcing these at times but never happy with the quality. There are some east coast producers that are good. The finger joint core is a good thing. It is just not practical for a small shop to do that making their own cores. It is also possible to buy finger jointed Eastern pine core material. I have not tried that.

[Mel Fulks]

Bought one order of the finger jointed wide core material made of NE pine. They were plenty thick and worked well. Also ordered some stiles once from the same company, they were not so straight. We made them work by carefully making sure the worst ones got the hinges. Would never order any finished stiles again.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe. Sometime when you have a chance I'd really like to see in detail how you deal with water getting between the panel and sticking.

John

Hi John,
See attached rough drawing and picture. The rustic Arts and Crafts style door is square sticking and close to my drawing on the right. In the picture you notice a shadow line at the bottom rail. It is possible to set the panel on the bottom rail but I always worry about water wicking up into the end grain. The drawing is a section through the bottom rail. Ends are coped or tenoned as normal and stiles are run as normal. Square sticking is popular here but the horizontal rails are tough on finish so we always try to put a 7 or 5 degree bevel on these.

The profiled rail is a little more difficult to make. Our profiled cutters are separate cutters with adjustable groovers for the groove so just a matter of a few cuts. This also works with foam insulated panels. The barn wood rail has more laminations than I prefer for exterior but the only way to do this and keep a flat door.

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[Mel Fulks]

Good stuff, Joe. We have have had even more pieces in the stiles at times ,when we had only 4/4 flat sawn material we would rip it into strips and glue that.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks very much for the follow ups, Joe. Much appreciated. I really like the engineering behind the German doors and adjustability of the hinges they use. I might do something like that with a front door for my own house just to work out the details and gain some experience.

John