New Shop Construction

[Kris Cook]

I currently have my shop in a two-car garage. While I don't necessarily use both bays of the garage solely for wood working; for me the footprint of one bay is not adequate space to efficiently work.

We are down-sizing and have just purchased a 100-year old house north of where we live now. The home does not have a garage but has a 12'X19' add-on room that is insulated, and has 220V power as well as an overhead gas heater.

We wont be moving until Spring and I am in the planning stages now regarding: shop space, garage/carport etc.

I am thinking the add-on room would be perfect for hand tools, workbench, mortising machine, grinders, drill press.

Power machines: TS, BS, planer, and jointer would have to go somewhere else (both from a noise and space standpoint).

Looking at the way the yard is laid out it will be difficult or impossible to put another building very close to the house. I would like to build a shop but due to space and cost considerations I am hoping I can split the functions as outlined above, and maybe build a garage/power machine space and have the hand tool space by the house.

We get a lot of snow and winter is when I have time for projects. I am wondering if having these different operations in separate buildings is going to be too troublesome.

Thanks
Kris

[Andy Giddings]

Anything can be made to work, Kris. Personally I would find the decrease in space and split locations a PITA, but, given a choice between your arrangement and nothing, it's going to come down to changing methods of work from what you are used to. For example - do all the cutting, shaping etc in one location and bring it into the add-on room for assembly and finishing. Just requires a different mindset and discipline

[Charles Lent]

I can't work like that. My wood shop is an out building. My mechanic tools are in the garage at the opposite end of the house about 300' from the wood shop, and my welding equipment is now all at my son's shop, which is across town and about 10 miles away. Hauling stuff back and forth is driving me crazy, to the point that I'm considering selling the house and finding a house with a 3 or 4 car detached garage, or at least space to build one, where I can have everything under one roof. I know that I now have at least three sets of the common tools like screwdrivers, hammers, squares, clamps, etc so one set is in each location, but it seems like I need my drills and impact tools or something else and they are always in one of the other locations. So it seems like everything that I try to do ends up requiring at least one trip, but usually several trips to one of the other locations, usually just to get the tools that I need and don't have where I am working.
A shop in only two locations will be better than what I have, but it's still going to get to you in a very short time, especially when dealing with it when the snow is flying outside. Is your garage heated? Working in freezing temperatures when your fingers want to stick to your table saw won't be very good for achieving cutting accuracy either.

We never seem to be able to have our ultimate shop, but keeping it all together in one heated and insulated building runs very high on my list.

Charley

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Andy and Charley. I think both of you have pretty much reaffirmed what I was thinking. I guess I need to do some more head scratching.

[Frederick Skelly]

As kind of an aside, is fine wood dust going to be a hazard with that overhead gas heater? I really dont know - but someone else will.

Good luck on your move.
Fred

[John K Jordan]

I built my shop down the hill from the house, near the barn, maybe 300' away. When the shop was partially done for a while I kept some things in the garage shop. What a pain. I was glad to get everything in one spot! Well not everything yet. I still have one bandsaw and some wood stored in the garage...


JKJ

[Jim Becker]

I have to agree with others, if there's a way to get everything in one place, that's going to be preferable. But sometimes "downsizing" requires a change in how we work and what we actually work on if space becomes a barrier to the types of projects we worked on previously.

[Deb Clarkson]

If space for building a workshop is limited could you do a 2 story building? Put the heavy machinery on the ground floor and the lighter stuff and hand tools upstairs.

[Charles Lent]

I know someone who has his entire shop above his garage. He has a motorized lift that slides/folds out of an end door to lift his machinery and supplies, etc.
It works for him, but I wouldn't want it. My shop was in the basement of my previous house and the only access was the inside stairway that went up to a 3 X 4' area with two doors, one left into the kitchen, and one straight ahead, which then dropped two steps into the back corner of the garage. Everything had to go in and out through that up and down maze. Before I moved, I was considering finding a sidewalk elevator and building an outside entrance with the elevator in it for access in and out of the basement, maybe with a removable stairway so the elevator didn't always have to be used. You can make do with these inconveniences, but it sure doesn't promote good shop time.

Charley

[John K Jordan]

... Before I moved, I was considering finding a sidewalk elevator and building an outside entrance with the elevator in it for access in and out of the basement, maybe with a removable stairway so the elevator didn't always have to be used.

Another option is to build an elevator. A quadriplegic friend of mine had an elevator made from a surplus fork lift. He had someone weld a frame and cage with guides and rollers. A small AC motor powered the hydraulic pump. I built a sturdy upper deck attached to the house with a big hole for the elevator and someone else built an enclosure and put a door into the house. This elevator is probably 7-8' square inside, could work for a shop. He had it made big enough for easy access and for turning his motorized wheelchair. Before the elevator he couldn't get to the second level of the house.

JKJ

[Kris Cook]

Too busy at work right now (working on two different projects in two different states). Still trying to do some planning when I get time. We spent a couple of days at the new place this weekend and still trying to figure out layout. Shop is probably going to have an upper half-story for office and potential future use as an apartment. I was planning on a 24' X 40' shop with a 12' X 24' single-stall garage taking up part of that square footage. The problem I am having now is my wife is not real keen on the 25' width for the full length because it encroaches on the yard too much. I would still like to incorporate a garage stall and maybe an "L" shaped setup of some kind.

Not really a question being posted here - more just thinking out loud. I will post some specifics after I can present some more fleshed-out ideas.

Thanks for the responses.

[Charles Lent]

Wherever you end up putting your shop, make sure you provide a bathroom in or adjacent to it. This is my biggest problem, having to stop work and head for the house when I need to use it. A half bath is Ok, but one with a shower and changing area is the ultimate. Of course, your shop will need running water for doing glue-ups, so a sink is needed at the very minimum. But a real 1/2 bathroom is also needed, with cold and hot water if you put in the shower. I have running water and a sink in my shop, but there's not enough room for the rest. I was just given a 120 volt "instant" heater for hot water at my sink, so this will be a needed improvement that I have gone 25 years without. My next shop will have a full bathroom and changing area in addition to the shop sink (who am I kidding, I'm 75 now).

Charley

[Kris Cook]

Still noodling on ideas. My work is finally starting to slow down so I can get back to planning mode. I used the Grizzly Planner to come up with the attached to see if my general layout thoughts are going to work.

I wanted a bigger shop but I think this will work. the white area in the bottom right is not part of the building (the planner won't let you create an "L" shape).

DC is in the garage which will house the wife's car. Stairwell above DC will go to office upstairs which will be half the footprint of the bottom floor.

[Kris Cook]

Seems like there are several folks going through the same process I am for figuring out shop layout. My previous post included a drawing of a plan for a 25 ft. wide shop. Subsequently, my wife made it clear the shop wasnt going to obstruct the view. I am now looking at a 20 ft. wide building. The drawing below reconfigures my layout with the 20 ft. width (shop keeps shrinking :() My main goal at this point is to convince myself I can make the shop work with this arrangement, and finalize the layout of the building itself.. I could probably go longer with the building but not wider. Cant seem to insert photos in line like I have done before.

[Jim Dwight]

Due to space on the lot considerations and appearance, I was limited to a 14x24 shop addition. It is a separate third stall on the garage. Sometimes I pull a car out and use the adjacent two car garage for something but no woodworking tools are in there. To make this work, I took the extension rails off my table saw and switched to a track saw for all cuts on big pieces. I like this arrangement better. Makes more sense to move the saw rather than the wood on big pieces. I mention this because you have a lot of space around your table saw. You wouldn't need so much if you made a decision like mine.

[Jim Becker]

The primary problem with your shop design is that truck that's taking up space. :) :D

Can you shift the building location a little to re-gain your 4-5' of footprint? That narrow space on the front is going to be pretty constraining, honestly. How about another 2-3' as that would allow you to turn the "garage bay" front to back and you'd gain a lot of space. You could also shift the stairway so it's along the wall that borders the "garage bay" for maximum space utilization. My shop building is 22x44 and was originally a 3.5 car garage build by the previous owner. I have all but the last bay on the end as my shop. Unfortunately, I do have a stairway that takes up space in the middle-back of my shop.

[Art Mann]

A lot of research has been done on the explosive nature of wood dust. It turns out, there is a minimum density of dust that will sustain a flash fire and that concentration would not allow you to survive very long in the room. You would choke before the heater would cause a fire. A dust collector can, under unusual circumstance, contain a level of dust that is explosive. That is what you need to be concerned about. I have a 5000 watt electric heater in my shop and after a summer without use, enough dust will collect on the heater coils to cause a burning smell when first used but there is no threat of fire.

[Kris Cook]

<p>
Jim D. - thanks for the suggestion. A track saw is in my future regardless of whether I modify the table saw. Jim B. - The garage will be for my wifes car - just making sure there is room to work on a larger vehicle if needed. :) I agree the bowling alley is problematic. I have to have the building 10 ft. off the lot line so I moved it 12 ft. off so I could drive into the back yard if needed. I could move back to the 10 ft. and gain 2 ft. - I have been considering this as I could drive in from the other side of the yard in a pinch. I am not sure what you mean by moving the garage bay front to back. Do you mean 90 degrees? I am limited to the end it is on, as that lines up with the driveway next to the house. If you meant something else I would appreciate if you expounded.</p>

[Jim Becker]

Kris, I meant rotating the garage bay 90º which would eliminate the "bowling ally issue" but that would require the structure to be just a few feet deeper to handle most larger vehicles.

[Kris Cook]

I get it. I will play with the layout some more and report back. Thank you.
Also I just read the http vs. https thread and that may be why I was having issues with my two previous posts.

[Bill Dufour]

You can probably buy a used panel saw for less then a quality track saw. Maybe mount the panel saw outside under cover in the driveway area?
Bill

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Bill - I hadnt considered a panel saw. I live in Montana so it probably needs to go inside. It might work in the narrow area I am calling the bowling alley. I am also working on adding some length to the building so that should help.

[Kris Cook]

I added 8 feet to the length which gives me more room although I still have the bowling alley. I think I can make this work. Mostly just wanted to prove out the concept at this point so I can continue planning for the build. I still have a bathroom to gut and some floors to repair at our old house so we can get it sold in the Spring. Any additional comments/suggestions are welcome.

[Jim Becker]

That extra 8 feet makes a difference in the "workshop-workshop" portion for sure and you can experiment a bit with finding the best arrangement to support workflow and assembly/finishing activities.

[Kris Cook]

Wow. It has been almost a year since I last posted about my alleged shop build.

Crazy busy year with getting our house ready to sell, and sold. The work thing seemed to take a fair bit of time as well...

Was fortunate to get my dirt work done and slab poured in October. Currently starting to frame the second floor. Layout changed to essentially 22'x44' building with 22'x25' shop space and a smallish garage for my wife's car, 4-wheeler with snow plow, and probably still have room for the DC and some metal working stuff.

I started to post earlier and got side-tracked reading some of the posts that have similar questions to mine. Lots of good information here. Actually, I can't exactly remember what I was going to ask a question about specifically. I will however be posting some pics of my build when I get a little more time.

Should have roof decking on next week!

[Kris Cook]

Remembered what I was going to ask.

I am planning to put wood floors in the wood shop side of the building. Currently slick-troweled finish. 9' ceilings. I plan to install PT 2-by sleepers either over or under a vapor barrier, and put 1-1/8" plywood over that.

Was thinking about not nailing down the sleepers - either glue or perhaps no fasteners at all. Any input/experience with either application would be appreciated.

[Jim Becker]

No need to fasten the sleepers to the floor and I'd put them on top of the vapor barrier so you can use glue for your floor panels, IMHO. Attaching them to each other will at least keep them from moving around as you add the plywood on top. IE, no need to make it a substantial structure, but you do want to keep it in place. Even staples spanning the joints can help with that. You should also be putting 1.5" rigid foam insulation between the sleepers for both the obvious benefit and to provide additional support to your floor. (not that a thick panel needs that much) Again, IMHO. This assumes you are not using radiant heating in the floor... Once the flooring is installed, everything will be locked together very nicely and you will not have penetrated your concrete.

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Jim. I like it. Definitely will be doing the foam, as well.

[Kris Cook]

This is where I ended up with the size and layout.

396727

Shop footprint is 22x25. Layout shown here is conceptual but a start.

[Jim Becker]

How do you intend to keep the shop pooch in that particular position all the time? :) :D

[John K Jordan]

How do you intend to keep the shop pooch in that particular position all the time? :) :D

I thought maybe it was a pooch rug, woven from alpaca and bighorn sheep fibers, intended to put in front of woodburning stoves for the benefit of cats. My cats would sleep on it all day.

JKJ

[Kris Cook]

Well Jim we actually have two dogs so it may be a challenge. They are both old however and sleep a lot so we could dial it in fairly well...;)

[Kris Cook]

I thought maybe it was a pooch rug, woven from alpaca and bighorn sheep fibers, intended to put in front of woodburning stoves for the benefit of cats.

JKJ

John - is this something you have experience with? Seems like a fairly descriptive construct for a rug...

[John K Jordan]

John - is this something you have experience with? Seems like a fairly descriptive construct for a rug...

It's been forever since I've made a rug. I do have years of llama and alpaca fleeces, but just one sheep.

My son did laugh out loud at the idea of a rug for cats shaped like a dog. We have two inside/outside cats and three barn cats.

[Roger Feeley]

I know someone who has his entire shop above his garage. He has a motorized lift that slides/folds out of an end door to lift his machinery and supplies, etc.
It works for him, but I wouldn't want it. My shop was in the basement of my previous house and the only access was the inside stairway that went up to a 3 X 4' area with two doors, one left into the kitchen, and one straight ahead, which then dropped two steps into the back corner of the garage. Everything had to go in and out through that up and down maze. Before I moved, I was considering finding a sidewalk elevator and building an outside entrance with the elevator in it for access in and out of the basement, maybe with a removable stairway so the elevator didn't always have to be used. You can make do with these inconveniences, but it sure doesn't promote good shop time.

Charley

Charles, your situation sounds like my last house.
-- Up the stairs to a landing.
-- Make a left into the kitchen.
-- Snake between the fridge and an island
-- hang a right through the laundry
-- down the stairs into the garage

Additionally, the stair stringers just didn't look right to me. There was a piece of 3/4" plywood nailed to a joist extending down and the stringers were nailed to that.
So I beefed up them up with sistered 2x4s when it was time to move the heavy stuff up and down. Moving out, I paid riggers to move stuff from the basement to the garage.

When we built our, ahem, downsized house, I insisted on two stairways to the basement. The inside one is a spiral staircase for people. The outside one is 4' wide with a 42" door for stuff. Interestingly, the basement at 1300 sq ft is larger than the house at 976. I had them make a floating slab over a porch. I don't want to know what that cost but it's great. It's also a really awesome storm shelter being surrounded by concrete on 5 sides.

[Kris Cook]

As I am nearing "drying in" my building I am thinking about electrical.

The attached drawing is my attempt at a diagram. I realize the icons are incorrect but it is what I could do easily in Photoshop Elements. The shaded thick lines are the DC piping runs. The florescents are a bit hard to see.

I forgot to show the panel on the drawing. It is on the wall at the top of the drawing between the two benches adjacent to the table saw. I am feeding from a 200 amp dedicated service on the other side of the wall.

I am going to run the garage wiring in the wall, so that is pretty straight-forward.

The shop wiring will likely be a mix of in the wall and surface mount. I am probably going to run vertically out of the box and stay high on the wall with my main horizontal runs (as has been suggested in other threads).

Any suggestions to keep the congestion down would be appreciated.

[Eugene Dixon]

Not my shop, not my money. I would consider putting the lights in the car space, not on the centerline of the vehicle. I would put lights down each side and add one at the front of the car and one at the rear, even with the garage door open. The latter on a separate switch maybe. But then, I tinker with the car/truck on occasion.

[Kris Cook]

That is good input. Thank you. I will re-evaluate the light placement. I too have been known to tinker - although less and less with these newer vehicles.

[Frank Pratt]

You're gonna want more light in the shop. It looks like you've got 7 4' fluorescent strips in there. For comparison, my shop is about the same size as yours & I've got a total or 32 4' tubes, plus additional task lighting at the workbench, drill press & sharpening station. The lighting levels are very good, but by no means excessive.

[Peter Christensen]

Something to consider with the 220V circuits are the different amperages. Which ones will be 20 amp, which will be 30 amp and anything bigger planned? Same applies to the 110V, 15 or 20 amp?

Pete

[Kris Cook]

You're gonna want more light in the shop. It looks like you've got 7 4' fluorescent strips in there. For comparison, my shop is about the same size as yours & I've got a total or 32 4' tubes, plus additional task lighting at the workbench, drill press & sharpening station. The lighting levels are very good, but by no means excessive.

Thanks Frank. I will take a harder look at the lighting.

[Kris Cook]

Something to consider with the 220V circuits are the different amperages. Which ones will be 20 amp, which will be 30 amp and anything bigger planned? Same applies to the 110V, 15 or 20 amp?

Pete

Thanks Peter, for the reminder. I had that figured out at one time but need to re-visit.

Trying to get trusses on tomorrow. We have weather coming so it will get interesting...

[Kris Cook]

I put together this spreadsheet to evaluate my electrical.

Does this seem extreme?

[Ron Selzer]

Couple thoughts based on my basement shop
1- Glad to see a seperate shop panel. I didn't do that since the main panel is so close. Now 18 yrs later want a sub panel and will change all wiring to get it next year. Garage and outside have sub panels.
2-Conduit to all major equipment. Dust Collector, Table Saw, Jointer, Planer, Shaper, ?? Had 220 ONLY to Planer and dust collector. running ext cords now for table saw, shaper and wide belt sander, all changed/added and were upgraded to 220. Will rewire with conduit after new subpanel is installed.
3- Switching over to led lighting and adding more light for older eyes to see better
4-Dust Collector switched on automatically when any tool piped to it is turned on along with a low voltage switch to turn it on manually. (very easy to do with CT's, relay and contactor in main electric panel)
5-Switch for air compressor on/off tied to lights if air compressor is remotely located.
good luck
Ron

[Jim Becker]

I really can't read you chart, but I'll mention that you "can" consolidate your machine circuits to reduce complexity and cost if you want to do that. Some things, such as your dust collection system, compressor, etc., should be on dedicated circuits, but if you are a "one person" shop and anticipate staying that way, you can feed multiple stationary tools from the same circuit by branching at a large j-box. Just pick tools that you know you will never be running at the same time. I like machine circuit j-boxes to be accessible inside the shop, too, so that changes in the future are easier. Many folks choose to run heavier wire for all machine circuits so there is also future flexibility. While many of the "typical" tools used in personal woodworking shops are fine with 20 amp 240v circuits, there are some that need 30 amp, such as the larger, heavy bandsaws that many folks gravitate toward by example. While it's not an exact designation, things that get to the "5hp" motor level almost always need a 30 amp circuit which in many cases needs 10 gage wire. Since 20 amp circuits can also use 10 gage wire, it may be cost effective for you to just use 10 gage for all your 240v circuits and terminate appropriate for the need of that circuit today.

[Kris Cook]

Ron - good ideas all. 4 and 5 are particularly helpful to me.

Do you have any thoughts or reference material on procuring and using CT's?

Thank you,

[Kris Cook]

Thank you Jim for the thoughtful reply. I think it is possible to simplify the circuits to some degree. There should be a couple of opportunities to consolidate things a little more. I will also give some thought to the 10 gauge wire.

[John K Jordan]

I will also give some thought to the 10 gauge wire.

I used 10 gauge wire and 30amp receptacles for all of my 230v shop tools even if they only called for 12ga, except for the 5hp cyclone and 5hp air compressor. I went with larger wire for the larger motors since they were a long way from the breaker.

There are online calculators based on amperage, distance, and voltage drop that will help with the wire size if needed.

[Jim Becker]

Thank you Jim for the thoughtful reply. I think it is possible to simplify the circuits to some degree. There should be a couple of opportunities to consolidate things a little more. I will also give some thought to the 10 gauge wire.
You likely can simplify your install and your material cost by going with 12 gage for all your 120v circuits and 10 gauge for all your 240v circuits, independent of any special needs such as a welder or clothes dryer that may require a heftier setup. The cost per foot can be advantageous when you are buying a larger spool of a given gage of wire. And you don't have to "think" as much when you are pulling...the yellow stuff is all 120v and the orange stuff is all 240v. :)

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Jim. I think that is a good idea. I am able to purchase wholesale but I am also a big fan of 12 gauge wire in general.

I am still working on trying to get a roof on the building. Hopefully, in the next couple of weeks I will be able to zero in on my electrical install.

I will post some pictures of the shop construction when I have more time.

[Kris Cook]

I am still plugging away on my shop construction. Pretty slow going by myself and my son helping three days a week. I have been pretty fortunate we haven't had much snow - much less than last year at this time (probably shouldn't have said that...).

I have been doing a lot of research and reading in the evenings, and catching up on the SMC posts from over the summer, and fall when I am too busy with work to do much of that.

I am installing a wood stove in the shop which is on the ground floor of the building. My office will be directly overhead on the second floor. I need to construct a chimney chase through the second floor living space. It is planned to be a fairly open space generally, except for a bathroom. I am looking for creative ideas for how to disguise the chase or incorporate it into another element that might have some function. I suppose a closet might be best but was wondering if others had any good ideas.

[Jim Becker]

Will the chase be free-standing in the space above or at a wall? That's going to influence suggestions.

[Kris Cook]

Good question, and one I should have answered with my initial post.

I haven't laid anything out yet but with combustible clearances for the stove downstairs I am guessing the pipe will be about 30" out from each wall in a corner. I hope that makes sense.

The chase will be pipe OD plus at least 2".

Haven't bought the pipe but maybe 10" OD for 6" triple-wall?

So the chase will be less than 2' from each wall in the corner.

Thanks Jim. Just breaking for lunch and now back out to the shop build.

[Jim Becker]

Sounds like a good opportunity for a built-in closet and/or plus book shelves in the space between the chase and the adjacent walls. It will not be usable space, for the most part, otherwise I suspect.

[Kris Cook]

That will get my wheels turning. I will come up with something.

Thank you,

[Kris Cook]

Mid-September to late September


398849

The first thing I did was dig my driveway down about a foot to alleviate some drainage issues. Stripped off the top layer of gravel with a skidsteer, stockpiled it and removed over a foot of material and piled in the back yard. I was able to "demo" a machine from CAT so it didn't cost me anything. Still working on it here but I guess I was pretty busy because I didn't take any other pictures of this work.


398851

We have clayey soils so the building footprint was over-excavated 2 feet. My neighbor owns the field behind us and has a pond in it. He wanted to fill in one side so he can run his irrigation pipe in a more direct line. He needed fill, and i needed to get rid of excess material. At his suggestion we installed a 12' gate in my back fence so we had a straight shot for dumping the excess material. He is an awesome neighbor.

398852

3" minus pit run was placed and compacted to bring the grade up to bottom of concrete.

398850

Inspection crew

[Kris Cook]

398854
Slab prepped

398855

Two loads of mud. Having the gate in the back saved the cost of a pump truck


398856

The local Amish folks did a great job on the slab



398857
A minor distraction while waiting for concrete. I scored a bunch of cedar earlier in the summer and made raised beds with mortise and tenon connections.

[Kris Cook]

398859

Layout


398862

Nice to have my boys up to help


398858


Walls going up



398860


Insulating the mono slab. Would have liked to go 4 feet horizontal but couldn't do it everywhere so stayed at 2 feet.



398861


Foam install is complete

[Kris Cook]

398863

Graded perimeter. Corner bracing.

398864

Need to add some fill around slab here. Tying in all of the elevations to get drainage is a challenge in this yard.


398865

Grading in front.


398866

Had a lot of rain in late October and early November. Got to know my squeegee really well.



398867


View from the back deck.

398868

More fill and grading done.



398869

Closeup of the raised bed

[Kris Cook]

398871

Trenching for electrical

398870

180 LF of trench to bring 200 amp service to shop, and get rid of existing overhead to the house

398872


Last leg of trench to the house.


398873

Of course it rained the night after I finished the trenching. Installing conduit in the mud was a workout for me and the boys.

[Kris Cook]

398875

TJI's up


398874

It got really cold right after the rain saturated everything


398876

Trench backfill was kind of a mess for a while. Either mud or frozen solid


398877

That windrow of backfill will probably be there until spring - oh well



398878

Neighbor came over with the tractor to move some of the frozen chunks away from the driveway area. That doorway leads into what used to be a pottery studio built by the previous owners. It is about 12' x 19' and has served as my shop since we bought the place last fall. It isn't much but it works for now, and I would have killed for a space that big for a lot of years when we were younger.



398879

Frozen chunks moved out of the way.

[Kris Cook]

398881

Dusting of snow on the Missions


398880

Covered my frozen chunks with black plastic hoping to thaw them out a little.

398882

Framing continues


398883

View from the back deck

398884

Second floor sub-flooring going down


398885
Trying to keep the OSB dry.

[Kris Cook]

398886

Second floor framing going up



398887


More second floor framing

398888

Tarps again


398889

I guess its kind of cold. That broom stood like that all day. Sure would be nice to have a heated shop to work in...



398890

My youngest learning how to use a nail gun.

398891

Framing away

398892

View from the back deck

[Kris Cook]

398893

Truss braces

398894

Trusses delivered

398895

Ready for trusses

398896

Tusses set on walls with telescoping forklift (Thanksgiving morning)

398897

W10X15 beam set for hoist trolley in garage



398898

Closeup of beam

398899

First truss set

398900

View from back deck

[Kris Cook]

398901

More wet stuff

398902

Tried to keep the second floor as low-profile as possible. Scissor trusses really make a difference opening things up.

398903

Sheathing going on

398904

View from the back deck

398905

I used upside down joist hangers for my outriggers for the gable ends. Gable end trusses are dropped 5.5" enabling me to use 2x6's on edge. Really solid.

398906

Gable end overhang

[Kris Cook]

398907

View from the back deck



That gets me caught up. Will post more pics as we progress.

[Frederick Skelly]

That's one heck of a project Kris! Look forward to more pics as you get them.
How much longer can you work outside in the winter?
Fred

[Jim Becker]

Thanks for all the progress pictures, Kris!! Looking great! And...what a view you have!

[Kris Cook]

That's one heck of a project Kris! Look forward to more pics as you get them.
How much longer can you work outside in the winter?
Fred

I have been really fortunate as last winter we had about 2 feet of snow by this time. I have worked construction all my life (mostly large earth-moving projects) but it is possible to work all winter. Some days are more miserable than others. The cold isn't the problem for building - it is the ice and snow that will slow me down. Hoping to get the roof decking started this week.

[Kris Cook]

Thanks for all the progress pictures, Kris!! Looking great! And...what a view you have!

Thanks Jim. The view is awesome. My wife and I went round and round on the size and placement of the building to minimize the impact to the view. I think we settled on a fair compromise.

[Kris Cook]

Getting around to doing some plumbing layout for the upstairs bathroom. My sewer line comes up through the slab on the lower floor (shop) into a perimeter 6" wall. I originally thought I would try to keep things tucked into the perimeter wall. At this point, to make things easier, and likely more functional, I am going to drop the vertical pipes from above down below the TJI's and pretty much have the main drain lines exposed. The shop ceiling is 9', and the area where the pipes will be exposed is kind of in a corner where the shop sink will be.

I can probably live with the exposed plumbing but was wondering if anyone had spent the time and effort to box around this kind of thing...

[Jim Becker]

The aesthetics are what they are around exposed or boxed...for me it would come down to insuring that the plumbing wasn't subjected to damage. That would be my real concern about being exposed.

[Kris Cook]

Thank Jim. I will do some more head scratching. Its not a real priority item, just one more thing to deal with.

Got the upper floor decked, and covered with ice & water shield/underlayment about a week ago. Weather isn't letting me get shingles on but so far the roof is not leaking through a couple of rain/snow-melt cycles.

Got the trusses set on the garage portion today so that was a major milestone.

Starting running some electrical and plumbing upstairs on the days when I don't have any help.

Will post a few progress pictures in the near future.

[Jim Becker]

In an open space like that, you just have to consider "what can happen if I do it this way" given the nature of how you will be using it. 'Glad things are moving along and you're able to keep the weather out at this point. That's a big step!

[Kris Cook]

Got the east and north windows installed in the upper story along with soffit and fascia while I have the man-lift. Hard to believe I was painting siding and soffit outside a couple of weeks ago.

Been laying low for the past week or so as we have had snow and single digits (both sides of zero). working in in my little temporary shop made some brackets for the gable peaks.
In anticipation of closing in the building, I need to build some doors for the garage. The main garage door will be an insulated steel roll-up door. Adjacent to the main door will be a smaller door with a 6 ft. wide opening. I am planning to build two 3'-0" doors to sort of match the steel door.

The internals will be Pine frames of 1"x3" laid flat with blue board in between the two frames, and 1/4" ply skin on the inside, and 3/8" grooved siding on the outside to create a torsion box.

Rails and stiles will be about 1/2" thick and fitted over the siding.

I am planning to run Pine 1"X3" on edge around the perimeter (doubled on the sides for hinge and latch support). These doors will be painted. These doors also won't be used that often, as there is a man-door right around the corner.

My question - I am thinking Pine might be two soft for wear and tear on the door edges. Should I be using Doug Fir or something else that would take paint well?

[Kris Cook]

I didn't get any responses to the previous question but it's just as well as I have changed the plan slightly. I am going to build the doors with 2"x4"s planed down to 3" wide and they will be on edge. The finished doors will be 4-1/4" thick.

I am planning for the doors to seal on the inside faces, and will likely have an astragal on the outside as well, so I am not too worried about getting a good seal. I just don't want to make the gap between the doors any wider than necessary, and would rather not angle the inside frames.

Does anyone know a good rule of thumb to use (that doesn't require trigonometry :rolleyes:) to figure out what the gap can/should be between the doors so they will close properly? I want to be able to open/close them independently. The doors will each be 36" wide.

[Kris Cook]

I ended up using a trammel compass to describe a 36" arc on a piece of cardboard, and decided 1/4" between the doors should give me adequate clearance.


Here is a start on the doors. I am planning to match somewhat these doors which will be in the adjacent garage bay.
404433

frames are Doug Fir 2x4's on edge, and planed down to 3" width.

404434

Finally used the pocket hole jig I have had for quite a while. Seemed like a good application.

404435

Doors are skinned on the inside with 3/8" AC plywood. Glued with construction adhesive and stapled (gave me an excuse to buy a narrow-crown stapler)

404436

Caulking around frame before insulation

404437

2 layers of 1.5" blue board - should be good for R-15

404438

Planed some more 2 bys and re-sawed to 3/4" thick.

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These will be the exterior face trim (fake rails and stiles). I was going to run them through the planer after sawing but I think they are smooth enough as is.

404440

The exterior skin will be 3/8" Dura Temp plywood siding with v-grooves on 4" centers. The face trim will go over the siding. This will give me a close enough match to the steel overhead door.

I still need to face the door edges before I put the face trim on. Unfortunately, the width will be 3-3/4" which means I can't use a 2x4. I was thinking of ripping down 2x6's to 3-3/4" and then re-sawing them to 3/4" but I have some 4/4 cedar that is wide enough to use. I am still wondering if cedar will hold up in the long term though. The boards I am referring to would not have the corners exposed, just one face - They will be painted as will the rest of the door.

[Jim Becker]

Those doors are going to look great!

Once you get the trim on the outside, be sure you caulk the areas where the v-grooves on the panels meet the trim pieces. You might also consider a small triangular piece on top of the horizontal trim pieces (small and unobtrusive) to insure moisture drains away, too. Easy to create them on the saw by ripping edges of boards with the blade at an angle.

[Kris Cook]

Jim - excellent input. Thank you for that. I was concerned about the gap behind the trim, and will likely employ the triangle fillet idea. Probably better to divert the water than to rely on caulking alone.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, in an outdoor application, deflection of water is a really good thing... ;)

[Kris Cook]

I am building two swing-out doors in my smaller garage door opening. When the slab was being poured, the finisher cut down the approaches to both door openings. I almost had them fill it back in to maintain a flat surface all the way to the edge. I really wish I had done that.

In the sketch below you can (hopefully) see what I am talking about.

I want to be able to seal the door with a "kerf-in" type sweep that need to press against a horizontal surface (threshold). I have drawn in purple the approximate shape of what the threshold would have to look like.

I plan to keep a 4-wheeler in this bay during the winter and I would rather have a tapered approach inside and out but I don't see a way to do that without something laying on the gravel beyond the slab.

Any suggestions?

[Jim Becker]

For an area like that you could consider putting up a form on the outside that has it's top level with the shop floor and pour some concrete to do what you described was an option during the original poor. Yes, you'll see it was added, but it will be concrete. That kind of small area is pretty easy to do even for someone who doesn't have experience with doing concrete work. There would be a little bump getting the ATV in and out of there which it will most certainly not mind and you could simplify the door bottom and use a replaceable, flexible weather seal. This, of course, just an alternative to the added formed threshold you show in your sketch.

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Jim. I was just looking on the JLC forum and saw others with a similar challenge where the consensus seemed to be what you are describing.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have lots of experience with concrete patching (I built swimming pools in my younger days - no, not in Montana)

I guess I hate to patch a brand new slab but I think you are probably right. Will have to wait until things warm up around here though. I may do something temporary in the interim as I was hoping to get these doors hung in the next week or two.

Haven't made any progress on the building for a few weeks due to weather, and a few work obligations. Looks like the weather may be starting to break this coming week so hopefully will see some progress.

[Jim Becker]

Tack some lumber milled and shimmed to thickness in there until the weather is amenable to concrete and do your doors. :)

[Kris Cook]

I think that's a good plan.

[Peter Christensen]

Or you could nail a 2x on the floor inside of the door to act as stop unless the doors have to sit supported on the floor.

[Kris Cook]

Pete - that is a good thought, and one I was going to propose with my original question. The doors shouldn't need the additional support. So, the seal would happen where the inside bottom edge of the door meets the floor?

Part of my dilemma is I haven't quite figured out how I am going to seal the doors vertically where they come together. I want to put cane bolts at top and bottom of each door which coupled with an astragal on one door face should give me a decent latch, and seal. Alternatively, I could put in a wood threshold (either under the door or behind as you suggest) and, and then have a removable post with weatherstripping the doors would close against which would provide a sealing surface for the door edges. Under the second scenario I would probably use the cane bolts as well.

[Dan Hall]

First post.

I'll be following this thread. I'm no stranger to wood working, just a stranger to fine wood working. I suppose I might be a wood butcher. My wife and I are looking at downsizing too. We live in an HOA afflicted community and have not been able to park a car in the garage for many years. That is my goal. We had a half acre with a separate 24' x 36' shop with a 200A service located but heard word that a bid was accepted on the day we were to sit down with our broker. Oh well. We'll find another one. I'm working in the third bay of a three car garage. It's more than cramped, it's unworkable. I do think though that I can do it in a typical two car garage sized building provided the metalworking stuff goes elsewhere. Has anyone seen a text or general guidelines for layout someplace? Maybe I'll check Amazon.

I spent my working life as an electrician with experience from housing to high tech to industrial to the Alaska Pipeline for my final 10 years. There is lots to learn and absorb here. As far as light fixtures go I really like what I"m using now though with LED stuff beginning to prevail I'm not sure they are a still good choice. They really crank out the light. Paint the walls white. That helps too. These fixtures generally go for about $100 per with lamps included. Each lamp puts out 4650 lumens.
Google this for information:6 Lamp T5 HO Fluorescent fixture.

[Kris Cook]

Dan - welcome to the Creek. There are a lot of good folks here.

Not sure what you are looking for as far as guidelines. I have been using Grizzly's free "shop planner" program available on their site. I also have a couple of books I purchased used on Amazon that have been helpful. I can dig up the titles if you are interested.

Maybe post your general location. It can be helpful to you and others.

[John K Jordan]

...I can do it in a typical two car garage sized building provided the metalworking stuff goes elsewhere. Has anyone seen a text or general guidelines for layout someplace? Maybe I'll check Amazon.
tur
...Google this for information:6 Lamp T5 HO Fluorescent fixture.

Hello Dan!

I have no regrets installing T5 fixtures with HO lamps in my shop. I use 4-bulb fixtures and make good use of the feature built into the electronic ballast to turn on just 1/2 of the bulbs in each fixture unless the others are enabled by a separate switch. The fixtures are installed in zones which lets me add more light for certain tasks.

I think the layout of a shop depends mostly on what you will do in the shop, what equipment you plan to use, and the space available. I have a couple of books on small shops that I found helpful.

I was fortunate in that I built my shop from moving the dirt to wiring the the dust collector so I could size the building and plan the layout to suit me. My interest is primarily wood turning but I wanted flat wood space, room for wood drying and storage, a small office/library, weld shop with some outdoor working space, integrated dust collection and compressed air plumbing, a small machine shop, electronics bench, and room for farm maintenance and farm animal care supplies.

I built a 24x62 building which sounds like plenty of space but I still had to carefully plan before building. I filled a notebook with plans and layout variations, slowly converging on a plan. I locked down the layout of the major tools before I finalized the wall, door, window, DC, lighting, and wiring plans. What helped me the most was making a scale drawing of the space on large paper then making cutouts for every space and machine I wanted to include. I could slide these around to try options then tape them in a final configuration. I made circles for minimum and desired walking space between the machines and then moved the circles through the layout. (I walked through an arrangement of large cardboard boxes to determine the spacing I found comfortable.) After a few years of use I'm still quite satisfied with the final layout. The only thing missing is a bathroom and tiny kitchen but I'm planning an addition for when I get enough money saved up!

In case you are interested, here is how I divided the internal space and a photo of one iteration of my paper cutout planning in progress.

405017

405018

My advice is to plan the space carefully before moving in the first tool, including the storage and working space including in- and out-feed space for the types of things you plan to do. Plan dust collection from the start. Space attached to the house needs some special considerations, of course.

So, what kinds of things do want to do in your shop?

JKJ

[Kris Cook]

22 degrees below zero here last night, and pretty chilly today - although a beautiful day.

Working in my little temporary shop on the garage doors.


Used the rip cut-offs from the door edge facing to make some fake rail, and stile material.
405020

This is the outside of the door pretty much ready for paint
405019

This is the inside - was breaking the edges with a block plane and hand sanding a radius on the edges - ran a splinter under my fingernail. Managed to pull most of it out with my Leatherman, then pulled the rest out by catching it with my thumbnail against the inside of the afflicted nail and scraping repeatedly until it came out. Let her bleed good and went back to work. Good news is; I didn't get any blood on the door.

I will say, that was the kind of pain that will make you sit up and take notice...
405021

[John K Jordan]

...- ran a splinter under my fingernail. Managed to pull most of it out with my Leatherman, then pulled the rest out by catching it with my thumbnail against the inside of the afflicted nail and scraping repeatedly until it came out. Let her bleed good and went back to work. Good news is; I didn't get any blood on the door.
I will say, that was the kind of pain that will make you sit up and take notice...


I hate it when I do that. I keep good tweezers with built-in magnifiers in the shop and iodine and more in the first aid kit. For splinters that break off or are otherwise impossible to get out otherwise I use a scalpel under low-power stereo microscope I keep handy for wood id.

JKJ

[Dan Hall]

Hello Dan!

I have no regrets installing T5 fixtures with HO lamps in my shop. I use 4-bulb fixtures and make good use of the feature built into the electronic ballast to turn on just 1/2 of the bulbs in each fixture unless the others are enabled by a separate switch. The fixtures are installed in zones which lets me add more light for certain tasks.


My advice is to plan the space carefully before moving in the first tool, including the storage and working space including in- and out-feed space for the types of things you plan to do. Plan dust collection from the start. Space attached to the house needs some special considerations, of course.

So, what kinds of things do want to do in your shop?

JKJ Thanks John, and Kris for your replies. I need to take a look at the notification options. I did not know anyone had replied to the thread. For now I'll be doing the normal householder type of flatwork like shelving, tables, and maybe some furniture. I used to build custom tube guitar amps along the lines of Ken Fisher's "Trainwreck", "Liverpool" and "Rocket" series along with a Dumble clone or two. This required speaker and head cabinets out of pine with telex covering. They turned out well. I'm out of that business now because I never made a nickel at it but will from time to time build one for a friend. I currently maintain equipment for one pro guitarist in the local market. I'd like very much to get in to turning and that's why I need a bigger shop. I'm stuffed into an incredibly small space with a Powermatic 66, compressed air, old Delta drill press, a combo belt and disc sander, my "Snowflake" Boice Crane 14" band saw from the 1920s, a 9" early DeWalt Radial Arm Saw, a short 6" Delta jointer and a modern Delta 12" planer. A vacuum cleaner hangs on the wall and my power hand tools are on a high shelf along one wall. All of that in 9 1/2 feet by 13 feet. Ha! All assembly and fit up takes place in the garage on a 4' by 14' heavy table. The wife's car lives in the driveway Summer and Winter. It's hard to find the ideal piece of property that meets both my needs and those of my wonderful wife. I'll check out the Grizzly shop planner program. I've also heard often about the scale cutouts of equipment. I think that will be a good start. I used to use Microsoft Office Visio for an object interface for planning component layout on guitar amp circuit boards. I't a dinosaur program but can be made to work.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback
Danhttps://i.imgur.com/6OVIrqmb.jpg

[John K Jordan]

I need to take a look at the notification options. I did not know anyone had replied to the thread. ...I'd like very much to get in to turning and that's why I need a bigger shop.

Dan, I know of several ways to see replies to a thread that you have started or posted in. One is to click the "Settings" button at the top right of the page, next to "Log Out". (I have no idea why it is labeled Settings.) This will show you all of your "subscribed" threads. I don't like to use this alone since it only shows threads that I have not accessed and sometimes I haven't finished reading reading some after the quick first look. Clicking on "View All Subscribed Threads" at the bottom of the list will show them all, read or not.

Another way to do the latter is to click on "Forums" in the menu bar, "Quick Links" below and to the right, then "Subscribed Threads" from the drop-down menu.

I haven't used the notifications, but clicking on "Subscriptions" in the panel on the very left of the screen will bring up a list of subscribed threads with notification check boxes.

That is a tight space. Before I built my shop I worked out of 1/2 of a two car garage in the house with two lathes, two bandsaws, two welders, and a bunch of shelving racks for turning wood storage, tools and such. I kept the overflow in an adjacent shed. That was tight! (And not heated/air conditioned.) My planer, sander, portable job-site table saw, router table, and radial arm saw lived in the space between the two bays and I sometimes hauled things outside to use them. It was impossible to find a place that would suit me without building from scratch. I'm so glad I built the new shop with more space.

I used to do professional 3d modelling, graphics, and animation with high-end software but for shop planning I think paper and pencil is much quicker. And by keeping everything in a notebook I can flip back to look at previous ideas to compare.

You might consider trading the RAS for a SCMS (I have a Bosch Glide) to free up some space for a lathe. If I had to, I'd ditch my PM66, jointer, and a bunch of other equipment to keep the lathes, sharpening stuff, and the 18" bandsaw. Get a good lathe to start with and never be sorry.

This is my lathe "alcove" with a couple of students.

405172

JKJ

[Kris Cook]

As I wait for the weather to improve, and have my son back next week to (hopefully) get the last of the garage roof decking on I am noodling on other shop ideas.

One idea I have been playing with is an assembly table that can be used at two different heights. Below is my current thinking on shop layout, and the assembly table is behind the work bench. I don't have any surplus room so being able to get double-duty out of a piece of shop furniture is important to me.

405285

I had given some thought to an adjustable height table but I am not going to buy something like that, and I don't have the time or gumption to try and design/build something real fancy. I also want to have storage underneath. My thought is to build something like in the sketch below.

405286

The table would be 42" wide by 72" long. The base would be 18"-24" high, and would have drawers and/or cubby holes for storage.

The normal working height would be in the neighborhood of 36"-48" which would be a comfortable height for most work. The "extended height" would be created with the interlocking panels shown, and the top would lay on the panels.

For assembling larger/taller projects, the panels would come apart and nest in the base, and the same top would cover the panels.

I have seen these kind of "knock-down" panels used for temporary work surfaces (I believe in a Jim Tolpin article). I haven't seen a table done this way but seems like it would work.

The configuration of the panels needs some more thought as I would probably want sides that come out to the edges of the base.

Comments, and input are welcome.

[Jim Becker]

I'm a "fierce" proponent of adjustable height work surfaces, especially for assembly and suggest that if you can accommodate that, you will be very well served over time. It's easier on your back and more efficient for the task. Knock-down supports can provide a lot of flexibility in various heights and they can be extremely simple, such as mere "X"-es with interlocking joints. When not in use, they can hang on the wall or slip into a rack.

[Dan Hall]

It would be nice if it had a dust collection feature too so that it could be used for sanding.

[Peter Christensen]

I wouldn't go to that much trouble because you have to lift the top off and set it aside while you assemble the mid base and then hump the top back on again. Then to take it down you need to reverse all the steps.

I'd be more inclined to make a torsion box top to keep the weight manageable. Have a 4"x8" open box (think rectangular tube) the width of the table and a second set of boxes 6"x 12" for the first set to nest in. Store the nested boxes in the ends of the base. Then all you need to do is lift one end of the top and slide the box under. Repeat at the other end. Now you can lift your top 4",6",8", 10", 12", 14", 16" and 20" plus you can toss other boards in the mix if you need more flexibility. Perfect height for the saw in feed table if you like. A couple small clamps would keep the boxes together if you think they may move around at an inopportune moment. This would let you also put drawers in the middle of the base accessible from both sides and castors to move it around as needed.

[Dan Hall]

I had to think that through. Great plan Peter. What's a torsion box?

Sorry, I'm new to some of this.

Ahhh.
https://i.imgur.com/0kYX9Jf.jpg

[Peter Christensen]

Thanks. That's a torsion box when the top sheet is glued on. Hollow core doors with the cardboard cores are torsion boxes as are the honeycomb aluminium skins used in aircraft. I think that one pictured is way too heavy for what I have in mind. I was thinking sanded 3/8" plywood sheets with softwood for the core. 1/2" top skin and 1/4" bottom if you wanted and if you want it lighter 1/4" top and bottom would be more than strong enough. Unless you plan on dropping very heavy things corners first I doubt you'll punch through the top. You can glue a solid wood edging around it to make them a little more damage resistant and visually pleasing if you want.

[Kris Cook]

Just saw this Peter. I will give this some thought when it isn't so late and get back to you. Thank you for the input.

[Kris Cook]

I'd be more inclined to make a torsion box top to keep the weight manageable. Have a 4"x8" open box (think rectangular tube) the width of the table and a second set of boxes 6"x 12" for the first set to nest in. Store the nested boxes in the ends of the base. Then all you need to do is lift one end of the top and slide the box under. Repeat at the other end. Now you can lift your top 4",6",8", 10", 12", 14", 16" and 20" plus you can toss other boards in the mix if you need more flexibility. Perfect height for the saw in feed table if you like. A couple small clamps would keep the boxes together if you think they may move around at an inopportune moment. This would let you also put drawers in the middle of the base accessible from both sides and castors to move it around as needed.

Peter - So I get the concept now. Your explanation is actually quite good when it isn't after 10:00 PM :rolleyes:

Is this something you have built or seen in use?

I like the flexibility but maybe more options than I need. I am not sure.

The thinking was this table would pretty much live in one spot.

I could see using the table at the highest elevation most of the time with the switch-over to the lower setting infrequently.

I have some time to think about this as I am a ways out from finishing the shop.

Dan - I was planning to do sanding elsewhere with local dust collection (another bench) but it is worth considering. Thank you.

[Peter Christensen]

I haven't made one.

My father had a stroke sander and he adjusted the sliding table height with various pieces of wood for different thicknesses. That let him sand pieces 1/4" thick or more and then with a few flips of the boards or sliding different ones in or out he could sand table tops with aprons and legs still attached. It was faster than hand cranking the elevation screw. It isn't a great leap to make the concept work for your application. You can easily make just one box size that suits most of what you do giving you 3 heights. None, laid flat and laid tall. The dimensions of the box is up to you. You can still toss flat boards in the mix if you ever needed it.

[Jim Becker]

Kris, torsion box construction for shop work surfaces is a pretty common thing. It's possible to get "really flat" and strong while keeping weight down in a serious way. It can be pretty darn surprising how strong the structure can be using modest thickness materials to build them and for something that might be used at multiple heights leveraging alternative support structures, the lightness is a big plus for changing things around.

[Kris Cook]

Jim - thanks. I agree on the advantages of the torsion box concept, and will consider that in whatever I end up building.

Peter - thank you for the additional info.

[Andy Hastings]

No amount of sanding/sawing, etc in a home shop can generate enough fine dust in to be a fire/explosion hazard. The dust density needed for this to happen is just not there. The DC sales folks are just out to make money from this baseless fear mongering that they perpetuate. If this danger truly exists then all electric motors used on woodworking equipment would need to be sealed or brushless by regulation and UL approved for use in explosive atmospheres.
So, go ahead and keep warm with your gas heater.
Just some good common sense from an old Fart.

[Jon Snider]

Kris, I’m enjoying your build thread. Thanks for sharing. The pics of NW Montana are beautiful. Swan Valley?

We’ve shared some of the same crappy weather here (at least for a shop build). Great for the snowpack and summer water.

Jon

[Jim Andrew]

About your adjustable height work table, I bought a HF motorcycle lift table, they had it on sale for 289$ on the tent sale, and put a wood top on that, and use it at both the high level and the lower level, it has a rod you slide through to stop it from leaking down, and it works great for cabinet assembly for me. Bought some 8020 aluminum extrusions and installed it around 2 sides to use my Kreg clamps for assembling face frames.

[Frank Pratt]

No amount of sanding/sawing, etc in a home shop can generate enough fine dust in to be a fire/explosion hazard. The dust density needed for this to happen is just not there.

I read a technical paper on this subject and it gave examples of real world indicators. Basically, the dust needs to be so thick that you can't see your hand at the end of you arm for the to be an explosion risk.

The danger to lungs is the thing to really be concerned about.

[John K Jordan]

I read a technical paper on this subject and it gave examples of real world indicators. Basically, the dust needs to be so thick that you can't see your hand at the end of you arm for the to be an explosion risk.

The danger to lungs is the thing to really be concerned about.

I've read the same or similar analyses and some tests where they tried to ignite wood dust in various concentrations, fineness, and speeds in dust collector ducts. The bottom line was it's not a fire or explosion hazard.

[Kris Cook]

Jon - next drainage over - Mission Valley

The Swan Range is awesome as well.

[Kris Cook]

Am I losing my mind? I don't understand where post #106 came from. Maybe responded to a different post?

[Kris Cook]

About your adjustable height work table, I bought a HF motorcycle lift table, they had it on sale for 289$ on the tent sale, and put a wood top on that, and use it at both the high level and the lower level, it has a rod you slide through to stop it from leaking down, and it works great for cabinet assembly for me. Bought some 8020 aluminum extrusions and installed it around 2 sides to use my Kreg clamps for assembling face frames.

Jim - like this one?

I purchased this table for the application you mention. I got to thinking about the size of the table being too small and possibly tippy. I would also like to have storage in this footprint if possible.

Having said that - I haven't even unpacked it so I may decide it will work.

Would you mind posting a picture or two?

[Dan Hall]

It's weird isn't it. Check the hybrid view at the top of the page and locate where the thread has gone. It's not linear, it goes by way of who responded to whom.

[John K Jordan]

It's weird isn't it. Check the hybrid view at the top of the page and locate where the thread has gone. ...

The hybrid view has always been wonky, at least since I've been following SMC. It will only display so many posts sometimes even if they are not down some branch of the tree. Posts on branches past a certain level have to be read by clicking on "More replies below current depth" or a little higher in the tree. Be even then some posts are difficult to find and I've seen circumstances where certain posts simply cannot be read with Hybrid mode. Some people use Linear mode exclusively but I like to see the tree so I can tell which message is responding to what. Judicious use of quotes would help.

Threads are a lot easier to follow before they get too big, perhaps a good reason for starting a new thread occasionally on the same subject every year or so, such as "New shop construction Part II" or somesuch and include a link to the old thread for continuity. I've gotten to where I sometimes skip over very long threads.

JKJ

[Kris Cook]

Some updates on the shop construction now that the weather is a little better.

I posted earlier about the doors I am building for the shop. I still need to pour a concrete filler strip where the threshold is going but started working on the threshold itself.

I was going to buy some 8/4 White Oak but remembered I had some 4/4 Red Oak that wasn't usable for furniture but I was loath to throw out.

Not having my table saw I had to get creative with the band saw to get some usable lumber.
405615


Straight line on one edge with chalk. The jig on the right is what I would normally use with the TS to get a straight edge.
405614

One edge straightened free-hand cut through the BS
405616

Flipped around and two reasonably straight edges
405618

Straight edge to show the lumps and bumps
405619

Getting closer to straight using a No. 5 that belonged to my Grandpa
405620

About 1 hour of work from rough to these.
405621

[Kris Cook]

Never really had to build a full staircase before but added to the growing list for this project.


3 stringers laid out and cut
405626

Hanging a stringer by yourself is a pain.
405625


Got both of them up. They will have to come back off to put sheeting behind them. Pretty jazzed to be close to having stairs.
405627

[Kris Cook]

This picture was taken in early February. I returned the man-lift a day after this picture was taken, and it started snowing the following day. We got our winter late this year and the snow continued through February and into early March. We also had below zero and single digit temps most of February. I was extremely fortunate up to February though so I am not complaining.
405637


Finally got some decent weather in the last week so time to get the last bit of roof decking done


Me nailing off the fly rafter yesterday (my wife hasn't seen this picture :cool:)
405631


My son cutting off the overhanging sheets
405634


View from the back deck today. ice&water shield on lower section with underlayment above.
405633


North side elevation
405632


Cleared a path in the snow to hopefully drain some water away from the building.
405630


Sure is nice having some sunshine, and 11 hours of daylight. Now I just need to close up the gable-end then I can install the garage door and carriage doors, and man-doors.

[Jim Becker]

Red Oak isn't the best choice of wood for something that needs to endure weather and moisture...it's completely different structurally from white oak. Red oak is like a bundle of soda straws... If this is for temporary, no problem, but you don't want red oak for anything permanent that will be exposed to moisture.

'Glad you're getting some progress on the project!

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Jim. I was thinking I would save a little money using the material I had. I knew White Oak was fairly weather resistant but didn't realize Red Oak was so much different. I will pony up and get something more durable.

Sometimes I envy folks that live in an area where hardwoods are readily, and more cheaply available. Not very often though...:D

[Jim Andrew]

Harbor Freight has a red platform type lift, you can roll your motorcycle on to, and it will raise your motorcycle up to a level handy to work on. I used one of those lifts for a variable height workbench. Not the small jack you put under the motorcycle, but a whole platform you roll your bike onto. It is something like 2' wide x 6 or 7' long.
Was 289 on the recent tent sale.

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Jim. I will take a look at that.

[Kris Cook]

When the building construction started we weren't able to get all the drainage, and gravel in place before the ground froze. Now that things are thawing out we will have mud. We did get the gable end sheathing buttoned up.
405968


Was able to use a submersible to pump most of the snow-melt around to the other side of the building where it can drain away. Obviously an on-going chore.
405967

Got some more windows installed today. This one is 8 wide by 4 high. By far the biggest window in the building.
405970


This is the view from inside the shop through the big window. My bench will be right inside the window.
405969

[Jim Becker]

Dang...the view out that window is going to be mesmerizing for all four (or 18, as the case may be these days :D ) seasons. Heh...heh...

[Kris Cook]

Keeping my fingers crossed hoping we are done with snow.

50's this week, and lots of sunshine.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Dang...the view out that window is going to be mesmerizing for all four (or 18, as the case may be these days :D ) seasons. Heh...heh...

What he said. That's going to be a great space to work in. I am so anxious to get a "real" shop like this. Still trying to get the place next door to us to convert to my dream shop. Until then, please let me live vicariously through you.

[George Yetka]

I put together this spreadsheet to evaluate my electrical.

Does this seem extreme?

Can your welder be wired 220?

[Kris Cook]

Malcolm - you are certainly welcome to do so. I hope you are patient, as this will likely take a while to get to completion.

I have been gone for the last 10 days dealing with a family issue.

Snow is melting fast here, and we have gone from 1.5' of snow to visible grass in about a week.

[Kris Cook]

Can your welder be wired 220?

My welder is a little Lincoln wire-feed that doesn't pull a lot of current. I don't think it can be wired for 220 but am not sure. It is in storage. It will be nice to have the welder set up and ready to go all the time which I didn't really have before.

[Mike Wilkins]

Good choice on the wide window; that is one heck of a view.

[John K Jordan]

My welder is a little Lincoln wire-feed that doesn't pull a lot of current. I don't think it can be wired for 220 but am not sure. It is in storage. It will be nice to have the welder set up and ready to go all the time which I didn't really have before.

If it's the Weld Pak 100 it will run on a 15 or 20 amp circuit. I used one for years before I got other welding machines and often used it on an extension cord. I keep it around because of it's portability and to weld things where there is no 220 power.

[Jon Snider]

Getting warmer here Kris. Hopefully up there too.

[Kris Cook]

Jon - yes warmer for sure. I see you are making some good progress on your framing.

[Kris Cook]

Installing the OH door today by myself.

I installed all but one of the sections with 16 penny nails driven into the jamb at an angle to hold them temporarily.

I put the last section up without anything holding it as I had gotten away with this on the previous sections until I put the nails in - I went to move my ladder, and was literally saying out loud "that would be bad" in response to the thought of the section falling down.

Well, the section fell down when I turned my back. To make matters worse, I reached up behind myself to try and slow or stop it.

Of course I had to get the high density, insulated, steel on both sides doors, and the section fell on my hand and smashed it into the rest of the door.

I think I am lucky and the dings on the doors will not be seen.

Tomorrow will tell as far as the dings on my hand.

Managed to continue the day and get the door mostly installed.

Decided to call it a day at spring winding time, want to make sure I have a fresh start before tackling that tomorrow.

[Kris Cook]

If it's the Weld Pak 100 it will run on a 15 or 20 amp circuit. I used one for years before I got other welding machines and often used it on an extension cord. I keep it around because of it's portability and to weld things where there is no 220 power.

John - yes - that is the welder I have. Works fine for my needs. Anything heavier needed, and my neighbor went to school for welding...

[Kris Cook]

Got the garage door finished up today.


406971406972


Now - back on completing the wooden doors for the smaller opening.

[Jon Snider]

Kris, any progress? I heard from friends in Livingston it snowed there yesterday so maybe affecting you. We got it here this AM. Just after the flowering trees and tulips came out. Oh well.

[Kris Cook]

Jon. Thanks for checking in. We got snow but it was gone by the end of the day.

Currently working down in Ennis, MT.

Shop progress will be slow to non-existent for a while as my work is seasonal, and I currently must be "making hay".

I did get my shop-made doors hung. Haven't figured out how to post photos from my phone but will post when I can.

[Jon Snider]

Not a fishing guide are you?

[Malcolm McLeod]

...
This is the view from inside the shop through the big window. My bench will be right inside the window.
405969

Darn the bad luck. Maybe a good set of blackout curtains will allow you to work??
;)

[Kris Cook]

Malcolm. We are fortunate to have the view, and is one of the main reasons we moved to where we are.

[Kris Cook]

Not a fishing guide are you?

Nope. Stream Restoration contractor. Helping to keep the guides in business. 😎

[Jon Snider]

Great job. Love fishing that country, been pretty much all over since first trip to Madison and Firehole in 1974

[Kris Cook]

Been home for a couple of weeks. Made some progress on siding. Decided to take on the learning curve with fiber cement siding on the most difficult and visible part of the building. Has been slow progress but am getting there.



411423

[Kris Cook]

Shop progress has been pretty slow this summer/fall.


Front of the building that faces the street is pretty much done, and has been for a while.
418404


Siding is about 2/3 done on either side. Haven't been home long enough at a stretch to justify getting a lift to finish the upper areas. I refuse to work from a ladder for this kind of work.

Fiber cement siding is durable and looks good but progress is slow. Every electrical box and penetration of any kind has a "block" that the siding is fit around and then is flashed. Every piece of fiber siding is pre-painted before installation. I underestimated the effort to work "at height" and I am sure the building would be done if it was a single story structure.
418406


Definitely a milestone today - parked the wife's car in the garage.
418407


Been focused on wiring, and have the upstairs and downstairs about 80% done. Heading to Idaho for a winter work project so the shop exterior will likely sit pretty much as is until late winter/spring. I am thankful it has a good roof on it and the weather should stay out. Will keep plodding away on the wiring as I get time and hopefully get rough-in inspection before spring which would allow me to get started on insulation...

[Kris Cook]

Used some rock I pulled up from a walkway to build a hearth/base for the wood stove. I used painter's tape to number the stones and then took pictures of the layout..
418859

I used the pictures to help me recreate the layout when I set the stones in mortar.
418860

Here is the finished product.
418861

Built a tent of sorts to keep the work above freezing until the mortar cures.
418862

Now I will be ready to get the wood stove installed when I have some time. With the wood stove I will be able to work in there even without insulation. Much less painful to go through the wood than burning propane or electricity.

[Frederick Skelly]

Glad to see it's coming along Kris. Enjoy!

[Jim Becker]

Now I will be ready to get the wood stove installed when I have some time. With the wood stove I will be able to work in there even without insulation. Much less painful to go through the wood than burning propane or electricity.

Make sure you put appropriate fire-resistant material behind the stove, even if it's temporary, if you are going to use it during your build out. You need to keep that heat away from the wall structure shown in your photos.

The stone work looks great!

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Jim. Absolutely will put fire-resistant material behind and adjacent to the the stove.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, even if you end up destroying some fire resistant cement board for the temporary need, it's far better than, um...rebuilding after a fire. ;)

[Kris Cook]

yea, even if you end up destroying some fire resistant cement board for the temporary need, it's far better than, um...rebuilding after a fire. ;)

tru - dat

[Kris Cook]

I am still a ways out on finishing the shop building and due to work obligations it will be a while...

So, I am playing around with some layout options. In the two pics below, I am showing two different layouts as regards the table saw, jointer, and planer.

Looking for, and would appreciate input on other's experience on optimum layout for these three.



423284



423285

[Tom Bender]

Hi Kris
You have a space hog in the garage. Unless you really need it you might want to put the RAS on Craig's List.

And your table saw is an aircraft carrier. It can be slid to the right or left till it hits the wall and will work out fine there. yo don't need to walk all the way around it. A side benefit is easy DC and power hookups.

[Jim Becker]

It's all about workflow. Some of that is practical and some of it is personal preference. Jointer and planer are complementary and are often used serially or in parallel while milling lumber. Many folks put them back to back when they don't have a J/P combo that does that automagically, for example. So as you look at each diagram you draw, envision working on a typical project and how your material will move around from tool to tool. That will tell you if you are getting close to what's going to work best for you.

You could, of course, park the vehicles outside which would free up a lot of space. :) :D Including for the bed you're need for getting kicked out of the house for not having parking inside. LOL

[Kris Cook]

Hi Kris
You have a space hog in the garage. Unless you really need it you might want to put the RAS on Craig's List.

Thanks Tom. I actually am not sure if I need it. Don't want to turn this thread into a "pros and cons of the RAS" discussion but I will say I bought it on Craigslist thinking it would be good to have, and having sold a nice Dewalt I had rebuilt about 20 years ago decided to pick this one up. It will likely end up back on Craigslist.



And your table saw is an aircraft carrier. It can be slid to the right or left till it hits the wall and will work out fine there. yo don't need to walk all the way around it. A side benefit is easy DC and power hookups.

Yeah - not sure how I will handle the table saw. On the outfeed end of the saw is a 4' roll-up door that opens to the garage. The original idea was this would give me room for extra long rips. After thinking about it I don't have the same room on the infeed side so that may not be the best idea. Part of my thinking is I don't want to be moving the table saw around once I figure out the placement and DC hookup. I have seen discussion previously on putting the TS against a wall. Seems like this would work on the RH side of the saw but maybe not the left?





You could, of course, park the vehicles outside which would free up a lot of space. :):D Including for the bed you're need for getting kicked out of the house for not having parking inside. LOL

Thanks Jim. I think I should have moved my stairwell over a little more which would have given me the ability to put the planer and jointer next to each other. As it stands I am not sure it will work. I will think some more about this.

I guess I am hoping to get things close to where they will end up so I can figure out my power drops and DC route.

As regards the "dog house" my office upstairs will have a pull-out bed in the couch but probably would get lonely after a while... Besides my wife put up with me taking over the entire garage (in Montana) at our last house so she deserves a place for her car.

[Jim Becker]

The sleeping arrangements were certainly in jest, but yea...Montana. Even I'd want to park inside there during the winter! I hear you on the stairwell, too. I have that problem in my shop, but didn't have any input since it was already where it is when we bought the property.

[Kris Cook]

So I had to go back a ways to find this thread. Boy - life can sure get in the way of getting projects done. I have not made much progress on the shop and with the current workload it may be a while yet. I am thankful to have work during this crazy time.

I have a question related to heating and cooling (mostly cooling).

I have a wood stove in the wood shop portion of the building with backup electric heat in the wood shop and in the office upstairs.

I plan to install a mini split in both areas (approx 500 sf each). I was looking at a Daikin unit that was 18,000 BTU with an air handler in each work area. The cost is about $3,500 for the unit.

This may not be the most practical solution but it appears I can buy two 9,000 BTU units for about $1,000 apiece. Aside from the space outside (which isn't really an issue) and maybe additional noise what would be the downside of buying and installing two units? I assume power consumption would be a little more for two units versus one - I have 200 amps to the building so not a big concern.

Appreciate any insight.

[Jim Becker]

Daikon is excellent...that's what I have for my mini split...18K, single interior air handler for 750 sq ft. Power consumption is "minimal". Either way will serve you fine but don't assume that a unit half the size of the 18K dual air handler is adequate for half the space. The calculations don't always work out that way. And noise? What noise? The external units are virtually silent compared to more traditional heat pumps. I have to look at mine to see if the fan is running as even with my hearing aids in, I don't hear it at all from 10 feet away.

[Jon Snider]

Kris, in Montana do you need a split with AC? Here in Colo I just open my doors and windows and turn on a ceiling fan in the summer. For winter heat I’m very happy with my Rinnai ES38. It’s an outside vent so safe with sawdust and (hopefully with CO when I have the dust collector in the basement on for a long time). I can control the temp remotely with a Honeywell thermostat and phone app. These are being used very frequently in mountain homes now since they are so efficient. I keep the shop at 40 degrees when I’m not in it and bump it up to 60 before I go out there (using the ceiling fan to recirculate the hotter air near the ceiling). I haven’t noticed any significant change in the gas bill. In fact so cheap I may not follow through on my plan to add a wood stove.

[Jim Becker]

Selection is a lot better for a "full" split system, Jon, so even if the need for AC might be less up there in Montana, it's not a horrible function to have available. I use my AC for humidity control and even to be out of the polen during certain times of the year when it otherwise might be comfortable to have the doors open.

[Kris Cook]

Jon - Shop will likely stay fairly cool. Upstairs is an office, and it will get warm up there. Will be good to maintain comfortable environment up there for the 2 months out of the year when it is needed. Also, power is relatively cheap where I live (less than $.07/kWh).

Jim - will be getting some professional input on the sizing requirements for sure. After researching a bit more - likely will stick with single unit with 2 air handlers. We can get over 100 degrees here although haven't seen that in a couple of years. Humidity not so much in the summer time. Pollen I can relate to. If it wasn't for Zyrtec my life would be miserable (better living through chemistry).

[Kris Cook]

Finally was able to get back to the shop this Summer and Fall. Finished up the siding and most of the exterior trim.

It's only taken me 2 years to get to this point.:cool:

Got my electrical rough-in inspection a couple of months ago and started on insulation and drywall.

Currently working out of town but hope to get back to the interior by mid-December.

Will post more progress updates hopefully sooner than later.

I am starting to allow myself to get excited about having a working shop.

[Kris Cook]

Making some progress inside finally
https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447737&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608674832
https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447686&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608610671

Tape and first coat of mud

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447685&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608610671
https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447735&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608674765
Not a big fan of taping and mudding but this little gizmo makes taping easy and it's almost like cheating.

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447736&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608674814

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447687&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608610681

[Jim Becker]

That's good progress, Kris. One hint about mud-work...just in case you didn't know it...don't sand between coats unless you have a problem area and then only there. Knock of any ridges with your mud knife and apply the next coat. This saves you a huge amount of time and is much cleaner. I learned this from the pros who did the drywall work for my kitchen renovation in 2003 and those that did our major home addition in 2008. It's made the smaller jobs I've done a lot more pleasant. Make sure the mud is also mixed very well so it's "creamy"...right out of the container is...not.

[Frank Pratt]

Making some progress inside finally
https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447686&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608610671

Tape and first coat of mud
https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447685&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608610671

Not a big fan of taping and mudding but this little gizmo makes taping easy and it's almost like cheating.
https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=447687&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1608610681

What gizmo?

[Kris Cook]

What gizmo?

Frank - my pictures disappeared. Hopefully they will stay put this time. Last pic is a "banjo" that is the gizmo.

[Kris Cook]

Alternative use for a blast gate.

Combustion air vent for wood stove.

448344

[Jim Becker]

Alternative use for a blast gate.

Combustion air vent for wood stove.

448344

That works as long as the area when open is sufficient for the required make-up air!

[Kris Cook]

Building a work station in the new shop. The station will have a shop vacuum underneath plumbed permanently to a Dust Deputy. I am sure this has been discussed more than once but I wasn't finding much with a search. I am sure there is a trade-off between noise reduction and potentially damaging heat. I am thinking of putting some rigid insulation around the inside of the cabinet and venting the enclosure.

I am wondering what experience others have had with enclosing a vacuum in a cabinet to reduce noise. Would like to hear from those that have actually done this, if possible.

[Jim Becker]

Kris, what you need to do is to be sure you use a vacuum that has enough native cooling to remain reliable in an enclosure. You can also consider a baffled air intake and return with small pancake fan to remove warm/hot air from the cabinet. Winston Moy on the 'Tube has put shop vacs in enclosures for use with small CNC machines to reduce noise from a screaming vac.

Your benefit will be increased if you can also use an extractor that is inherently lower in noise level by design. Of course, that's also a bigger financial investment.

[Kris Cook]

I should have been more clear in my post. I don't intend to spend a lot of money on this setup. I am using a standard shop vacuum in an enclosure, and if I can get get some noise reduction using a passive solution, without causing overheating issues I would consider it a success.

I don't know how to go about ensuring the vacuum has adequate cooling to remain reliable in an enclosure other than trial and error or asking input from someone that has done it.

I will check out the video. Thank you Jim.

If anyone has experience to share on enclosing a shop vacuum I would appreciate it.

[Kris Cook]

I ended up going with a mini Dust Deputy after trying a plastic tote and watching the sides suck in.

Haven't had much time to work on the shop but did start installing the DC ducting.

459294

459295

459296

Didn't want to guess as to where I was going to terminate the drop for my TS so I added this to my collection. Received today.

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[Kris Cook]

Received this yesterday. This rounds out my large equipment for the new shop. Now just need to finish the garage drywall so I can hook up the DC, and get some stuff out of the shop part and get things organized.

[Kris Cook]

Well, I got the garage taped and mudded and moved everything out of the shop into the garage.


My oldest son came up and helped with sleepers and foam.
468306 468307


Bandsaw came in handy for ripping foam
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I used 3/4" T&G underlayment
468310


Almost done - youngest son came up yesterday and helped me finish up the flooring, patching, and sanding
468311

[Kris Cook]

Plywood all done and ready for paint
468312 468313


Primer Down
468314



Didn't get a photo of the other side or the finished paint but did get the paint on late last night. Will post some more pics when I get back home. Hopefully, I will be moving equipment back in early next week and then my wife will have the garage for her car. :)

[Jim Becker]

Dang...that looks really good!!!!

[Frank Pratt]

That will be a very nice floor. I question the need for sleepers if you're using XPS foam, except for the under the joints between the sheets of plywood. I doubt there's a machine heavy enough to compress it through a sheet of plywood.

[Kris Cook]

Thanks Jim. Looking forward to finishing up this project, finally.



That will be a very nice floor. I question the need for sleepers if you're using XPS foam, except for the under the joints between the sheets of plywood. I doubt there's a machine heavy enough to compress it through a sheet of plywood.

Frank - you could be right. Probably "belt and suspenders". My knees and back are just glad it is done.

[Kris Cook]

Well - nothing too exciting to report but with the weather warming up was able to get upstairs and work on some mods to the office/guest room area. I was able to spend the day with my oldest son who helped me build the shop and is now a full-time carpenter. Kind of cool to see the role reversal starting to take place with him taking on the layout and making decisions and me playing more of the support role.

The upstairs isn't really shop space but is part of the building, so I will post progress. Its only been like 4 years since we dried in the building. Took out a window on the gable end and replacing with a door with half-glass and sidelight to take advantage of our awesome view. The door will open up to a small balcony.