KnewConcepts Mk3 vs Mk4

[John Stankus]

Looking through the Highland woodworking website I noticed that there are now two versions of the Knew Concepts Fret saw. Anybody try out the Mk4 yet? Higher tension, but also higher weight. How does that affect usability.


John

[Derek Cohen]

Since KC does not demarcate their saws by "mk x", can you be more specific to which saw you are referring?

If it is the "Birdcage" style, these have been out for some time. I wrote a review in 2013 ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsBirdcageFretsaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[J. Greg Jones]

Derek, they do list the Mark IV as heavy-duty version, capable of more tension. It's on their site now, and also on the Highland site as mentioned above.

[Todd Stock]

Was up in the air on this when Craftsman Studios started carrying the 'Heavy Duty' version, but ended up keeping the standard edition for shell work and the coping saw for dovetail waste...

[Jim Koepke]

Mine must by the Mk3 and has made me much more confident in the use of a fret saw.

According to the write up on the Highland page it looks like the Mk4 can pull even more tension on the blade and the blade can swivel a full 360º. That is a feature that would have had me wanting the Mk4 if it was around when my Mk3 was being purchased.

Maybe if I'm good SWMBO can be convinced a 3" or 8" fret saw is something the shop needs.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, they do list the Mark IV as heavy-duty version, capable of more tension. It's on their site now, and also on the Highland site as mentioned above.

OK, I know which one you are referring to now. I have had it at my shop for about a year (for testing), but it did not have a name (which is what threw me). I have the 8" version, and what is special about this is not simply the heavier construction to avoid flex (and it really does resist flex better than others), but the swivel blade clamps. They allow for 360 degree rotation.

The role for these saws is fretwork, more commonly as done by jewellers. They would be wasted if all you are doing are dovetails. You are better off with the cheaper lever action saw if the budget/weight is an issue. For dovetails I always recommend the 3" version (lighter and stiffer) since the blade can twist to 45 degrees, which allows for unlimited lengths to be sawn.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

But, the red saw frame sure looks nice on the shop wall behind my bench. :)

[andy bessette]

But, the red saw frame sure looks nice on the shop wall behind my bench. :)

When I first saw the grey saw in one of Derek's photos I felt I just had to have it. After tracking it down to being a Knew Concepts I was hugely disappointed to discover that it was only available in RED! which I felt cheapened it immensely. Go figure.

[Patrick Chase]

When I first saw the grey saw in one of Derek's photos I felt I just had to have it. After tracking it down to being a Knew Concepts I was hugely disappointed to discover that it was only available in RED! which I felt cheapened it immensely. Go figure.

Derek's grey one is a prototype Titanium saw, machined from a single plate. NC ended up bringing the multi-piece Ti "birdcage" saw to market instead, when they realized that wasting Ti like that would drive the manufacturing cost and therefore price up to unacceptable levels even for them.

I expect that it will soon become economically feasible to do a one-piece Ti saw with additive manufacturing, though.

[lowell holmes]

The saw is so superior to other fret saws I have, it could be yellow with red polka dots and I would not care.

[Jim Koepke]

The saw is so superior to other fret saws I have, it could be yellow with red polka dots and I would not care.

+1 on that. My old fret saws now sit idle on a shelf.

jtk

[John Stankus]

The role for these saws is fretwork, more commonly as done by jewellers. They would be wasted if all you are doing are dovetails. You are better off with the cheaper lever action saw if the budget/weight is an issue. For dovetails I always recommend the 3" version (lighter and stiffer) since the blade can twist to 45 degrees, which allows for unlimited lengths to be sawn.

Regards from Perth

Derek

And if budget/weight are not an issue?

On weight my go-to plane is an 8, so weight isn't an issue but I suppose balance might be.

Budget for the minor price differences are not significant. (though what I really need is for Lee Valley to offer a box of time, to be able to get into the shop more often :) )

3" mk 3 is $96 mk4 is $99 (130 g vs 190 g)
5" mk 3 us $99 mk4 is $105 (144 g vs 226 g)
8" mk4 is $120 (mk 3 no longer produced but is $110 on Lee Valley website) mk 4 is 278 grams
All Highland Woodworking prices except as noted

John

[David Eisenhauer]

The Knew Concepts fret saw is the one tool I have purchased that I feel I can positively say that the higher priced tool definitively improved my work. While I may feel like some other more expensive tool purchases have resulted in better work from me, I will readily admit to some of the "if it cost more, it must be better" syndrome creeping in. The Knew saw? stands on its own - I do better work using it vs using either a cheapo coping or fret saw. Caveat - My claim stands for my work only, the rest of you are on your own.

[george wilson]

Unless you have a special disability,using a normal fret saw (as light as they already are) might strengthen the muscles in your wrist. I used a yew wood fret saw I made with about a 20" reach in the frame to make the marquetry guitar I have posted here. Heavy,yes! But I got used to it. Good exercise for the wrist.

Normally I use,for small work,one of those plain Jane Swiss jeweler's saws with an ugly,but comfortable soft rubber handles,and about a 1/4" bent steel frame. So does my friend Bill Robertson,a famous and very skillful miniature maker. He likes his because it is fully functional,and he can take it apart when traveling to Europe to teach classes. Saves a bit of room in his crowded suitcase.

It would never have occured to me to have a saw lighter than an ordinary German jeweler's saw. My wife,who has been making jewelry for over 25 years,and is 5'2" and has small hands and wrists,uses the Swiss saw I described. In fact,it was introduced to he shop by her.

[Hasin Haroon]

George, do you use a fret saw/coping saw to cut out dovetail waste or do you chop? And why?

[Bill Houghton]

When I first saw the grey saw in one of Derek's photos I felt I just had to have it. After tracking it down to being a Knew Concepts I was hugely disappointed to discover that it was only available in RED! which I felt cheapened it immensely. Go figure.

Did you maybe think it was secretly a Woodpuckers tool?

[andy bessette]

BH--I had never seen one before viewing Derek's photo.

[John Lanciani]

Derek's grey one is a prototype Titanium saw, machined from a single plate. NC ended up bringing the multi-piece Ti "birdcage" saw to market instead, when they realized that wasting Ti like that would drive the manufacturing cost and therefore price up to unacceptable levels even for them.

I expect that it will soon become economically feasible to do a one-piece Ti saw with additive manufacturing, though.

The one piece Ti saws were most definitely made and sold at least for a short period of time, I have one.

[Patrick Chase]

The one piece Ti saws were most definitely made and sold at least for a short period of time, I have one.

The story I heard is that the founder (spacing his name right now) ended up in possession of a small quantity of Ti sheet, left over from the F-22 program. He made and sold small quantities of the saw that you have until he exhausted that supply, and then realized that he couldn't manufacture it economically from non-surplus materials. The market price of Ti was also increasing rapidly from its 2009 nadir (http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-titanium/all/) about that time, though it's been headed back down of late.

Interestingly the birdcage's structure is inherently much more rigid in twist and side-to-side (the "flat" one is stiff in tension, so-so in twist, and soft in side-bending). Which is "better" doesn't seem clear-cut to me.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a bunch of the saws - generally, Lee Marshall keeps me in the loop as he goes (as I was instrumental for suggesting design factors at the start and these fretsaws becoming a woodworking tool). I don't otherwise have any connection with Knew Concepts.

As my experience with the saws has developed, I have come to recognise that the stiffness is indeed important, but that the adjustments and ease of set up are even more so. The stiffness factor becomes less of an issue as you lighten the pressure on the blade. Using a fretsaw is no different from using a dovetail saw insofar as applying very LIGHT pressure to the cut. Here is an excerpt from my article (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html) on through dovetails where I mention this ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m46d81eff.jpg


The waste is now removed with a fretsaw. I aim to saw along the top of the chisel wall. This should leave about 1-2mm of waste above the line.


As with the saw, the fretsaw must be held as lightly as possible. Never force the cut. Let the saw do the work. A way of determining how you are doing is to watch the blade – it should hardly deflect. You should be rewarded with a fairly straight saw cut.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I just chop out the waste. Why? Just got used to doing it that way. If you saw the waste out,you've STILL got to chisel out the waste. I got to where I could do the corner of a drawer in my large tool chest in 10 minutes flat.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi George

You could just chop it out. I prefer to saw out the waste leaving about 1mm above the line. This is then easy to pare away. It is also less brutal on the chisel edges.

I should qualify this by adding that I dislike chopping into our West Australian hardwoods, so your experience is likely to be different.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I don't make a lot of furniture. My woods are likely to be mahogany,pretty soft honduras,pine,etc..If I was using really hard woods,I'd saw the waste out like you do.

[lowell holmes]

I hope you guys realize that Derek and George are having a discussion, pay attention.:)

[Patrick Chase]

I hope you guys realize that Derek and George are having a discussion, pay attention.:)

I certainly am. As I've said before, George's tangents are some of my favorite discussions on this forum.

[george wilson]

I don't have much more to say. For years I just used an old Disston back saw-a small size one. Still have it in the shop somewhere. But,when I found an old Groves dovetail saw with a .015" thick blade,I very quickly was spoiled.

When we made saws,the .015" thick dovetail saws were the first to get grabbed by the different shops that came to get their new saws. Later on(still many years ago),I found a beautiful old Groves back saw with a bent blade. Was cheaper than if it had been straight,but still not really cheap! But,I just clamped the front end of the blade in a smooth jawed machinist's vise,tapped the front edge of the back,and jerked the blade straight. These are my 2 favorite OLD back saws. I have made a few repros of them,as they have such lovely shaped handles.

[David Eisenhauer]

Any way we could see a photo of the Groves' handles you have?

[lowell holmes]

Paul Sellers taught me how to make dovetail joints. My chisels are scalpel sharp and I chop. I think he uses a coping saw now, but I'm not sure.

[David Eisenhauer]

I chopped because I never got along with a standard coping saw. For all the agra with the saw, I just went ahead and chopped. No real issue with chopping until I tried the Knew concepts fret saw. A real "oh now I see said the blind man" moment for me.

[george wilson]

Here are a few based upon the Groves saws. Especially the closed nandle one. I can't sleep,and didn't bring my glasses down stairs,so I hope there aren't too many typos. think I added a few details from a saw in the Duncan Phyfe tool chest on the open handle one. It's been years.

[David Eisenhauer]

Nice saws George. And I like those handles. Thanks for sharing.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The saw is so superior to other fret saws I have, it could be yellow with red polka dots and I would not care.

It would cost more for the cool design :D

I bought one of the original titanium ones that they offered. I really like it and never use my other saws of similar intent. You don't need the titanium, but you do need this saw. No comment on which version, i just cut dovetails with mine. I did, however replace the handle. I purchased a custom handle from Elkwood tools....

http://www.knewconcepts.com/handles.php

made a huge difference for me.

[Jim Koepke]

My ability to use a fret saw improved considerably after purchasing a Knew Concepts fret saw.

Before this, my standard practice was to chop out the waste. My old fret saws didn't seem to lend any advantage to sawing out the waste.

BTW, George, those are beautiful saws.

jtk

[Barney Markunas]

Not trying to derail the thread, but has anyone taken the Blue Spruce saw for a test drive? I thought I had made up my mind to get a Knew Concepts saw and Dave Jeske had to go an muddy the waters with his.

[lowell holmes]

I don't make much furniture either, but I have some mesquite on the bench to make the lounge chair that was in Popular Woodworking a while back. I have the paper cord and all of the hardware.
I think I need to get started. It's difficult to start a project in August when you live in Galveston County, Texas. :)

I think I will wait until October when it's cooler.

[Patrick Chase]

Not trying to derail the thread, but has anyone taken the Blue Spruce saw for a test drive? I thought I had made up my mind to get a Knew Concepts saw and Dave Jeske had to go an muddy the waters with his.

Malcolm Schweitzer posted in the "$400 tool" thread about that saw. He tried one out at Handworks and really liked it.

[David Eisenhauer]

And maybe late Oct at that. I am very interested in seeing some photos of the upcoming chair. I went to a Texas heritage museum in San Antonio that has a formal meeting type room (maybe from the original legislators?) with a long boardroom style table and many chairs, all of mesquite. The furniture looks like it will outlast mankind as we know it.