Magnetic Dovetail saw guides

[Kevin Vasko]

So has anyone had any experience with any of these?

Advantages or disadvantages of any of them?

http://www.katzmoseswoodworking.com/new-products/81-clear-urethane-katz-moses-magnetic-dovetail-jig-and-90-degree-crosscut-guide


http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=41718


http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/david-barron-magnetic-dovetail-saw-guide.aspx

Any reason to get one over the other?

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
You may receive a reply or two that will call these guides "training wheels" and tell you to practice dovetailing without a guide enough that you won't need one. Maybe they have a point. I try to keep a foot in each camp. I like dovetailing without a guide, but I'm also a big fan of the Barron guide (Highland) which gives me speed and repeatable, precise results. It's like riding a bicycle to work some days and driving a car other days. Who says one excludes the other?

However, you didn't ask for philosophical advice so in more direct response to your question:

Thumbs down on the Lee Valley guide
Two thumbs up the David Barron guide (his free videos are great also). I have the 1:5 and the 1:6 and alternate between them depending on thickness of stock and the look I'm after
No experience with the KatzMoses guide so I can't help there

Happy Dovetailing!

[Frank Drew]

You may receive a reply or two that will call these guides "training wheels" and tell you to practice dovetailing without a guide enough that you won't need one.

I'll be that guy: IMO, this guide is unnecessary and, more, would probably impede one's progress as a craftsman. 90% of the dovetail cuts any of us will ever make will be an inch or less in length -- it's really not difficult to keep a short cut like that straight.

[mike holden]

The David Barron is the only one I have experience with. Highly recommended.
However, it is like a sharpening guide - useful only to a point.
As you progress, you will want to learn to saw to a line in order to make ANY joint.
In the meantime, this will get you dovetails that fit well.
Mike

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

If you're not buying ours (patented), please buy David's - he is licensed to make it. The first one listed violates our US patent...

Cheers -

Rob
(who hates putting on the "Goliath" shirt..... but that's the law)

[Don Dorn]

I used a guide for awhile - it was the LV. It worked fine but was time consuming for me. I opted instead to draw the lines and cut to them - that also worked well. For the past several years though, I've adopted the Klauze method which is by eye. While obviously not as precise, it works for me because it's quick and more than acceptable results.

[Dave Parkis]

I'm another fan of the Barron guides. Yes, you can practice and get proficient without guides, but the guides will help you get beautiful dovetails immediately.

[Patrick Chase]

Hi -

If you're not buying ours (patented), please buy David's - he is licensed to make it. The first one listed violates our US patent...

Cheers -

Rob
(who hates putting on the "Goliath" shirt..... but that's the law)

Kudos to David Barron for doing it right (and to Veritas for licensing the patent on terms that allow Barron to price competitively).

[lowell holmes]

https://literaryworkshop.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/a-simple-shop-made-dovetail-marker/

I made this one at Homestead Heritage. It works.

I also have and use the Kell.

[Kevin Vasko]

Hi -

If you're not buying ours (patented), please buy David's - he is licensed to make it. The first one listed violates our US patent...

Cheers -

Rob
(who hates putting on the "Goliath" shirt..... but that's the law)


I used a guide for awhile - it was the LV. It worked fine but was time consuming for me. I opted instead to draw the lines and cut to them - that also worked well. For the past several years though, I've adopted the Klauze method which is by eye. While obviously not as precise, it works for me because it's quick and more than acceptable results.


Sorry, what is infringing on what patent? I'm not sure who "ours" actually are.

[Hasin Haroon]

'Ours' in Rob's post is Lee Valley. He's the president of LV. So in this case David Barron is licensed to manufacture under Veritas' (Lee Valley) patent, but Katz Moses is not.

I have a Veritas dovetail guide and it works just fine. People often complain about it not working so well with their backsaws, but it is designed to be used with a thin kerf japanese saw, with set on only one side, like a flush cut saw. When used properly it works fine.

That said, it definitely is one of the tools in my shop that I forget about for long periods of time, as cutting 'freehand' is not all that difficult...so if I could go back in time I would not purchase any dovetail guide and use that money for something else.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Disclaimers:



I have never used one of these.
I do not own a saw that would work with them. The saws are inexpensive though...


When I cut my dovetails, they are not perfect. When I need to cut perfectly vertical, well, sometimes my eyes and hands do not want to work together. I have on more than one occasion, set a square to show me true vertical. It helps a lot when I drop vertical lines and then I can follow the line, but it can still be helpful to have a reference for starting.

Especially when training muscle memory, these seems like it would be a great thing. It also assumes that you will be using the type of saw that you are learning with. In other words, I am unsure how cutting well using a pull saw with no set on one side will translate into the cuts that I make with my Western backsaw.

I have stared longingly at these in the Lee Valley catalog imagining my perfect cuts every time, but I never really wanted to spent the money to find out if the improved cutting would translate into less total time spent after factoring in the time it takes to fix imperfect fit because of imperfect cuts. I have certainly spent lots of time when I don't get it exactly right messing with the exactly this so that the final product looks perfect to the untrained eye.

So, if I had easy access to a set, I would test it, beat on it, and see how much time it saved me in the long run. Setup time may be longer, but, it may save time elsewhere, especially when starting out.

[James Pallas]

I do not have a guide. Does anyone else find it funny that we try so hard to make hand cut dovetails look machine made and the machine side try's to make them look hand cut. Maybe the machine side will find a way to introduce some over cuts and the hand side will come up with a three sided chisel to make the perfect imprint.
Jim

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I do not have a guide. Does anyone else find it funny that we try so hard to make hand cut dovetails look machine made and the machine side try's to make them look hand cut. Maybe the machine side will find a way to introduce some over cuts and the hand side will come up with a three sided chisel to make the perfect imprint.
Jim

How much time I spend making it look perfect is dependent on its use and who will see it. I built a chest that holds tools. All the drawers are hand-cut dovetails. I did not fix any gaps. I tried to cut them perfectly, since only perfect practice makes perfect, but they are never perfect. I built an URN:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?256285-Making-an-URN-should-I-add-a-plaque&p=2715179#post2715179

I spent much time fixing any gaps when I built the URN. This is the finished product:

365572

A cursory look seems pretty good and an untrained person is likely to assume that I really cut almost perfect dovetails by hand. A closer inspection shows differently

365573

OK, it still looks pretty good, but I had a small gap at the bottom of the dovetail. You can likely see where I filled it. I know that this will be examined very closely by people who really do care that it looks nice. I could have just done it on a machine, but, the spacing is not uniform. I can do that with the jigs now days, but I don't own a jig that will do that.

You can see the scribe lines where I marked the base of my tails. I was told that even in machine cut dovetails, sometimes these scribe lines are added so that people think that they were done by hand. I was amused. Then again, I also don't really understand purposely stressing furniture so that it has that "old and abused" look if you are not trying to make it match an existing set.

[Patrick Chase]

So, if I had easy access to a set, I would test it, beat on it, and see how much time it saved me in the long run. Setup time may be longer, but, it may save time elsewhere, especially when starting out.

I have the LV one, but haven't used it in quite some time. Like you I see slight imperfection as part of the aesthetic of hand-made pieces. I also decided at some point that my time was better spent practicing so that I could cut straight (enough).

With that said I think that using a simple magnetic quide like this is a reasonable compromise, and I have nothing against them. It's not as soul-destroying as a JointMaker Pro (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/jmpv2-jointmaker-pro.html) for example.

[Prashun Patel]

Imho it is harder to place the saw properly than it is to saw straight. Practice free handing vertical cuts. It gets easier with practice and is a valuable skill to develop.

[Patrick Chase]

Imho it is harder to place the saw properly than it is to saw straight. Practice free handing vertical cuts. It gets easier with practice and is a valuable skill to develop.

Yeah, I used "straight" as a shorthand for "along the desired line". As you say "straight" is easy unless the saw is poorly sharpened.

[Paul Sidener]

I have the Dave Baron guide. I used it on just one project. I didn't care for it. Dave used a Japanese saw with it, I have back saws. The problem with back saws is depth of the cut. I was putting dovetails in 3/4 inch stock, so you need a tenon saw that cuts at least 3 inches. My tenon saw is tapered. That caused me to remove the guide, before finishing the cut. You could see where I removed the guide on the dovetail.

[lowell holmes]

Did you ever hear "Hold the saw like you're holding baby bird". In other words, hold the saw loosely and let it track in the kerf. Try it, it works.

[Paul Sidener]

Did you ever hear "Hold the saw like you're holding baby bird". In other words, hold the saw loosely and let it track in the kerf. Try it, it works.

I do, and it works when you saw continuously. When you stop sawing, and peel the guide off the saw. Then start sawing again, you can see where you stoped and started again. The magnets on the Dave Baron guide are very strong. I couldn't get the guide off, without stoping. Like I stated earlier Dave Baron suggests using a Japanese saw, my guess was it was for that reason.

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

I tested the Barron – it works as advertised and I do think it's a great way to get good results if you're new to sawing. But in the long run, as was mentioned above, learning to saw to a line – any line – is key to great work! http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/david-barron-magnetic-dovetail-guide

[lowell holmes]

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=spigot-nt-gc&ei=utf-8&type=839740&p=kell%20dovetail%20marker

Check this link. You should find something you like.

[Chris Parks]

I do not have a guide. Does anyone else find it funny that we try so hard to make hand cut dovetails look machine made and the machine side try's to make them look hand cut. Maybe the machine side will find a way to introduce some over cuts and the hand side will come up with a three sided chisel to make the perfect imprint.
Jim

I have often asked the same question, do as Frank Klaus does, no mark out at all apart from depth and the first board cut is used as the template for the second. marking out DT's to precise measurements seems to defeat the object of looking hand made.

[lowell holmes]

I mark my dovetails with a pencil and saw free hand with a dovetail saw. A small, sharp saw helps.
I have a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw. I've had it for 15-20 years. I have their dove tail, carcass rip, and carcass crosscuts saws.

They were expensive, but amortized for 15 years, not that expensive. Buy a poor tool, weep , and it gets discarded.