Which comes first???

[Scott Parks]

The chicken or the egg???

I mean... the carcase or the face frame? I've always built carcase first, and then the frame to exact fit. Then, I install the face frame to the carcase with biscuits.

Well, I tried it different today. I made the face frames first. Then, the problem I had was matching the carcase to the frame width. Dealing with undersized ply and dado depth stinks. I ended up with my face frame about 1/64 th or so proud of the carcase. Because of this, the frame did not line up flush with the carcase on all sides, so biscuits were out of the question. I ended up nailing the frame to the carcase. I hate nail holes in my face frames.

Any other ideas? I'm looking for an easier, and faster way to do this.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I am like you Scott. I always built the carcase first and then made face frames to fit. I am interested in this question also.

[Steve Clardy]

Box first. Face second.

[Pete Harbin]

That's what my Dad taught me...case first, face second.

[John A. Williams]

Wow this is an interesting thread, for a couple of reasons. I took a cabinet building class and was taught you always build the face frame first, then the box off of that. This past weekend I built a large pantry cabinet for a friend and did it the "wrong" way. I built the box first (due to lack of space, wanted to get the sheet goods broken down) and then the face frame. When things didn't turn out "perfect", I was blaming my "backwards" method.
John

[Chris Rosenberger]

I have always built the face frames first. Next I make the doors & drawers. I build the box last because it takes up the most shop space.

[Jim Becker]

Carcass first for me...

[Michael Gabbay]

I do carcase first but don't glue it up. I've read in Tolpin's book to do face frame first which does make a lot of sense. His reasoning is to save shop space but also use is as a story stick as well. He also uses story sticks to build the face frames.

Mike

[Bob Wingard]

I tend to do face frames first, following pretty closely Marc Sommerfeld's method as prescribed in his earlier video demonstrating pocket screw joinery.

[Russ Massery]

The cabinets I just built for my kitchen I built the carcases first. My nieghbor owns a cabinet shop they build the face frames first. He's says it insures that the carcases are built to correct size. As for attaching the face frames I use pocket screws, plywood thickness is all over the place.

[Scott Parks]

I made the face first to save space of having boxes everywhere. But, like I said, the problem was in dealing with the undersized plywood. Say for example, I have a shelf that is exactly 33" and it rests in a dado that is 3/8" deep, and the plywood is something like 23/32.... Now I can make a frame that is exactly the same width as the carcase. But by making a frame exactly 36" wide, I had to do the math backwards, and "fine tune" the lenths of my shelves until the carcase came out right, and I was still off.:(

The advantage I found of building the frame first, was, it was easier to square up the carcase. Clamped and nailed the carcase together, plopped the frame on top, and nailed it. Therefore the carcase dried "square".

But, all said, I think I'll be going back to carcase first, frame next, drawers last.

[John Hemenway]

Udo Schmidt, in his book "Building Kitchen Cabinets" goes for the frame first. Reasoning is if the frames are off by a little (1/16") the run could be off by a lot. Better to get frame exact and make case to fit.

I also like the fact frames take up a lot less shop space waiting for cases than the other way around.

Of course I know none of us ever make cutting or measuring errors :) so it really doesn't matter which is first.

[Scott Brihn]

I prefer to build the face frames first primarily due to space limitations.

[Steve Clardy]

I like the face hanging off the box some, then flush trim the face to box.
If I have two cabs that butt together, I leave the face hanging off the box, tying the faces together, and the box isn't interferring.
My cab lengths are always figured on the face length total, not the boxes.

[Jesse Cloud]

I watched one of Marc Adams demos at a wood show. He told the story that when he first started out, it was in a cabinet shop. He built the carcase first and then fiddled with it to fit the frame. The old guy who ran the shop taught him to build the frame first, because its easy to get square and fit the box into the frame. You can make tight dados with a shim on your dado set, or you can buy router bits that fit the actual thickness of plywood (woodworker's supply, for one, has them).
My two cents.

[Lynn Sonier]

I have been building the box first and then fitting the face frames on, one piece at a time, using biscuits. I have nghtmares about building a face frame and not having it match the box. Probably lose a little strength that way but I willing to sacrifice that to get perfect fitting face frames. I'm ain't saying its right but it feels good!!

[Jay Albrandt]

I bought Marc Sommerfeld's CMT set and used his technique of T&G and pocket screws for faceframe and cabinet making. The CD comes with the set.

Works great, no guess work!

Jay

[Scott Parks]

I like the face hanging off the box some, then flush trim the face to box.


This is what I was planning on doing by having the face frame a little bit proud. But, without two flush surfaces, I wasn't in the mood for fine tuning the location of biscuits.

So, Steve, how do you attatch your frames to the carcase? I hate nail holes, so I like to use biscuits, but then the frame must come out flush to the carcase for it to be easy. Maybe I'm just trying to hard?:rolleyes:

[Charlie Plesums]

It has been a while since I built multiple face frame cabinets (why give up the extra inch or two of drawer and door opening). When I did build them, I did the face frame first, which defined the doors, width, height, and everything else. The case was built narrow, because I was working in old houses with uneven walls, so the frames could be screwed together and the narrower case allowed a little play.

If you want to use biscuits to attach the face frame, and want the sides set back 1/8 inch, use a piece of masonite (or whatever) 1/8 inch thick as a spacer when cutting the biscuit in the case.

[Scott Parks]

If you want to use biscuits to attach the face frame, and want the sides set back 1/8 inch, use a piece of masonite (or whatever) 1/8 inch thick as a spacer when cutting the biscuit in the case.

Well that's an easy solution! I never thought of that. Often times I 'over-engineer' things. It would be easy to just use shims half the thickness of the difference in over all width. Thanks Charlie!

[Per Swenson]

Hello All,


I build the face frames first.

Overall the carcass is built 1/4" smaller then the

outside dimension of the frame. This allows 1/8 th to extend

beyond the box on both sides. This is so when you install the cabinets

the face frames can be screwed together square and flat.

One little discrepancy in the wall, or in the cabinet itself and the

face of your job will not come out correctly.

I hope I am being clear.

Per

[Steve Clardy]

This is what I was planning on doing by having the face frame a little bit proud. But, without two flush surfaces, I wasn't in the mood for fine tuning the location of biscuits.

So, Steve, how do you attatch your frames to the carcase? I hate nail holes, so I like to use biscuits, but then the frame must come out flush to the carcase for it to be easy. Maybe I'm just trying to hard?:rolleyes:

I'll send some pics. I think I have them posted on another thread > i'll look around when I get to shop computer.

[Steve Clardy]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=10212

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