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Mike Null
07-31-2017, 4:17 PM
I've just received my samples of new Enduramark laser marking chemicals. I haven't begun to test them but I have seen the results of others and am convinced that the black is comparable to Cermark but a lot cheaper.

If you'd like to order a sample pack use this link: https://enduramark.com/laser-marking-spray-sample-pack

At the moment there is a special sample offer which includes 10-gram bottles of Black, Silver and Diamond Dust. They are just $9.99 including free shipping. Use the code SAMPLEPACK to get this offer.
These products are for stainless steel. Dilute with denatured alcohol.

I should mention that I have no financial interest in this business.

Bill George
07-31-2017, 5:56 PM
I tried to order but the website is screwy, can not scroll and can not apply discount code. Too bad it looks interesting.

Bert McMahan
07-31-2017, 5:58 PM
Let us know if you test it on aluminum or other materials. I know they say they "don't recommend it" but I'm curious nonetheless!

Doug Fisher
07-31-2017, 6:20 PM
We all will be interested to know how it performs in your tests, Mike. Cermark seems to be the "known quantity" but there are a number of competitors in the market now (e.g. LaserBond).

Did you get the "free" Preval sprayer too? If so, it will be interesting to know if it is mandatory like they seem to indicate. When I looked at their site last week, they didn't recommend bristle-type brushes but they didn't address foam brushes either.

Kev Williams
07-31-2017, 6:22 PM
Bill, add it to your cart, then checkout- In the checkout section, it says 'if you have a promo code, view your cart to enter it' <<< the "view your cart" part is a link TO the cart. Within the cart area on the left is says something like 'enter coupon code here'-

Their website IS a little screwy, and like so many websites lately almost impossible to read in some areas because of no contrast. Guess it's the 'artsy' thing with websites these days but I have eyes that likes DARK against LIGHT much more than light silver against white...

I got mine-- Since I've burned thru almost 2 kilos worth of Cermark this year already, a $70 savings per 500gm bottle will be welcome! I just really hope it works, and I'm really curious how the Triumph will do with it!

Brian Lamb
07-31-2017, 8:34 PM
I ordered the special, will see how it works compared to Cermark. Thanks for the tip!

Mike Null
08-01-2017, 10:07 AM
I understand that a foam brush will work. You mix this to the same consistency as Cermark.

I doubt that I will make any recommendation with respect to aluminum as they specify stainless steel and I do very little work with bare aluminum.

Mohammed Issa
08-01-2017, 10:15 PM
too bad they don't ship to Canada. I've been looking for an alternative for a long time.

Rich Harman
08-02-2017, 7:10 AM
They are just $9.99 including free shipping. Use the code SAMPLEPACK to get this offer.

It shows a grand total of $9.99 but adds $13.40 to the PayPal amount for shipping, for a total of $23.39. I think you may not see that if you use a credit card.

Mike Null
08-02-2017, 7:30 AM
Rich
I believe they are monitoring this thread so I expect that is an oversight that will be corrected. I spoke to one of the owners to be sure it was ok to mention the sample deal on SMC and he didn't mention any restrictions.

John Lifer
08-02-2017, 7:31 AM
If you view cart, there should be option to "not use credit card" or some such option. Click that and all charges will go to zero.... No shipping charge, actually free.

Rich Harman
08-02-2017, 8:00 AM
If you view cart, there should be option to "not use credit card" or some such option. Click that and all charges will go to zero.... No shipping charge, actually free.

There is the option of using PayPal or Credit Card. Selecting either one does not change what it says the grand total is, it will show $0.00 for shipping, but when I log in to PayPal the $13.40 shipping charge is added.

Tim Bateson
08-02-2017, 8:26 AM
I ran a couple tests on Enduramark Black marking compound. I ran it against Both CerMark LMM6038 (my preference) and LMM-6000.

Overall it was real close, but both CerMarks still provided a better Marking. In my opinion Enduramark's recommendation of a 2:1 dilution is way too thin. I'm thinking if it had been thicker, the tests might have been even closer in comparison. As I thin my 6038 about 5:1, it's still the better buy and at least in my first 2 tests a better Marking too.

I didn't have the best light for the attached picture but it's CerMark LMM-6000 on the far left / LMM-6038 in the middle / Enduramark Black on the right. Along with my test strip. What the poor picture quality doesn't show is on my system 70% Speed was optimum, however the final result - after a good scrubbing was Enduramark was lighter and more dull in color.

Mike Null
08-02-2017, 10:44 AM
Tim

Your picture--on my screen--shows Enduramark as being darker. The other interesting thing is that you ran Enduramark faster. Is that right?

Tim Bateson
08-02-2017, 10:56 AM
I'll try to get a better picture of it tonight. Yes, the sample strip (to the right) produced the darkest Black at 70% speed on my machine. However it does have a very large % that will produce dark shades of Black that are very close.

Kev Williams
08-02-2017, 11:10 AM
In my opinion Enduramark's recommendation of a 2:1 dilution is way too thin. Well that sucks-- I really need to try some 6038. I've thinned the last 2 bottles of 6000 at 3:1, and it's borderline too thin for brushing, but it's okay. But if 2:1 is too thin, there will be no money saved:
1 cup 6000=4 cups thinned @ $250 = $62.50 per usable cup---
1 cup Endu=3 cups thinned @ $180 = $60.00 per usable cup--
hmmm...

We shall see...

And FWIW, paypal says $9.99...

And FWIW part II, I have bottles of DNA that my brushes get rinsed in, and use for thinning and test engraving- with just the trace amounts of Cermark in the alky, the results are still quite black hit at full power... (this addresses 'if it was thicker the tests might have been closer')

My main interest at this point is how it works in my glass Triumph. Cermark simply will not produce results to suit me as for basic text engraving on stainless. The only consistency I get is with lots of power, and the result, while very consistent and requires sandblasting to remove, isn't the least bit "black". It's a dark bronze, with a gloss to it, which causes the mark to disappear when light hits it on an angle. I need a nice flat black like my metals lasers give me.

We shall see... :)

Bill George
08-02-2017, 11:23 AM
Tim what does it do with your fiber?

Mike Null
08-02-2017, 12:52 PM
Here's a quick and very unscientific test.
First applied Enduramark very thin, watery, and ran at 100p, 600dpi and both 30 and 20 s. Results were not acceptable at that consistency.
Then applied a thicker coat and ran at 20s, 100p and 600dpi, my Cermark settings. (second from the bottom.)
Then I ran Cermark at the usual consistency with the same settings. I believe the Enduramark to be just slightly lighter than Cermark (bottom).

I would have to run a few more tests to draw a conclusion.365184

Tim Bateson
08-02-2017, 1:23 PM
Tim what does it do with your fiber?

Haven't tried that as I don't use the Fiber on CerMark either.

Kev Williams
08-02-2017, 7:31 PM
The "too thin doesn't work so well" is a bit disconcerting...

Cermark only test- on the right, my basic mix, roughly 3 parts alky 1 part Cermark.
On the left, my alky rinse bottle solution! And, I even added 1/4 cup or so of alky to it before
applying it...
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camera focused on the trash can, but I'm tilting the plate,
but you can still see it's very runny--
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my power settings-
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Starting the engraving
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note there's some missing Cermark...
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I always use water and a magic eraser to remove the Cermark,
this gets it ALL off, and also tells me if it the Cermark didn't fuse well to the metal...
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Here's the finished version, I rotated the plate 180 to hopefully
get the same lighting angle-
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-not exactly the same lighting but close-
While there's some bare spots on the 'weak' side, overall, the black is nearly the same
as it is on the 'strong' side. And my weak solution at BEST must be 10:1 alky to Cermark, possibly as much as 15:1 -

Mike Null
08-03-2017, 12:20 AM
Kev

I tend to agree with the idea of using a higher ratio of dna to Cermark. I don't measure mine, just eyeball it at about the consistency of 2% milk or a little thinner. I mixed the Enduramark at 3 to 1. That was too thin so I let it evaporate and then reapplied with much better results. One thing is quickly apparent--Enduramark stays in suspension longer making it much easier to spray than Cermark.

Kev Williams
08-03-2017, 1:06 PM
not settling fast is a good thing, spray OR brush--

This newest bottle of Cermark I just got came in a 'new' bottle, updated label, and the bottle is actually different, and I don't care for the lid, the OLD lid's design is much better- but I gots plenty of empty old ones! ;) - It's different than the last 3 bottles, more of a gray color. And the first thing I found is that if it sits on these brass plated cowbells I laser for more than about 10 minutes, it starts to tarnish the brass, badly. I've had this happen in the past at times, but not this bad- I ended up having to hurriedly coat 50 bells ENTIRELY just so they would tarnish somewhat equally instead of the engraving being framed within a very noticeable darkened square. I have a few bells that's had Cermark on them for months or years, I found one and used as an experiment, the old hasn't tarnished the brass a bit but the new did...

Here's the backs & sides 2 rejects, the left is one I coated the whole bell, the right only the front.
The left is noticeably tarnished. Turn the bells sideways, and you can see where the Cermark ran down the sides, tarnishing both bells...
365245365246

--this is one of my pet peeves with Cermark, that every 5 batches or so is very corrosive. Years ago the Cermark I applied to some carbon steel chisels rusted them very badly, and immediately, that was a nightmare. And with the Olympics coming in February I already have orders for more than 500 of these things, likely to be 1000 more, and I CAN'T have them tarnishing up!

Can't wait to test the Enduramark on these bells. If it proves less corrosive than Cermark then I will definitely be getting some!

Bill George
08-04-2017, 9:07 AM
Kev, you can't do those Bells with your fiber?

John Lifer
08-04-2017, 9:51 AM
That's my first thought as well Bill.....

Second, are you marking all over them? or on one side in say a square? Can you tape of that area and quickly spray lacquer on the rest of the bell? Yes, I know..... more time, might peel off later, has to dry, etc, but better than tarnish.

Third, have you tried Laserbond on them? or a different Cermark? I've been using lmm14, but you can't handle the area at all. And Laserbond is very similar to 14, can't handle. That's it's main drawback over the 6000 in my opinion.

Tim Bateson
08-04-2017, 10:04 AM
I let the jar sit open overnight. As I had suspected I saw the same results Mike got. So bottom line it's REALLY close to CerMark, but a but duller after cleaned. Due to the minimal dilution I'm still not sold. I have to wonder though if due to so many free sample orders if they had already diluted it a bit to stretch it out?

Mike Null
08-04-2017, 10:48 AM
Tim

I won't buy into that idea. Samples are the best way I know of to get started in this kind of business. No way they would short shrift their samples. Besides, I spoke to one of the owners and I was impressed with him as a guy I'd like to do business with. I'm hoping the tests are positive as I'm ready to switch if there's a reason.

Kev Williams
08-04-2017, 2:39 PM
Kev, you can't do those Bells with your fiber?
Nope. See responses in other threads about how fibers engrave brass, in particular, bullet shells. These bells are made from cold rolled steel, and plated with used bullet brass supplied by the Norwegian Army. They're plated hot, then cold dunked which splatters the brass. They do "mark" with the fiber but nothing pretty about it. I also tool engrave them; I'm surprised anyone likes the tool engraving because brite silver engraving against brite brass = no contrast at all. But many customers insist on it. Oh well :)

When I'm done lasering, they get a good shot of clear enamel, seals up everything and gives the Cermark a gloss. I give a light clearcoat to tool engraved to prevent the engraving from rusting. Many of these are done on both sides.

Very rarely has this tarnish issue came up. IF I can get the Cermark washed off within 20 minutes that's usually okay- problem is I'm always doing many jobs at once and don't babysit the machine, so sometimes way more than 20 minutes will go by before I can get to them.

It's just plain easier if the marking solution DOESN'T tarnish them! :)

365305

Bill George
08-05-2017, 12:53 PM
I am going to Post a picture of some engraved rifle brass.... If it offends someone I will remove but its the only one I have right now that was done with my laser. It could be live ammo, done for someone in the Military.

Kev Williams
08-06-2017, 2:38 PM
I've engraved many shells with my fiber, it's had no trouble marking any of them, and I've been able to mark them dark or light. Keyword in this is "mark", not a lot of actual 'engraving' going on.

Now copper is a different story, I've been only able to barely mark pure copper, and that was within a very specific speed and frequency ratio. And it didn't matter what the speed or frequency was set at, as long as the ratio between the two remained the same- I forget actual numbers but for example, 500 speed/35 freq and 1000 speed/70 freq would engrave the same. The little 'circles' button below the settings? As long as the overlap shown visually was the same, any usable speed and freq numbers would work. How much power makes very little difference.

I've been figuring out how to engrave rings with my fiber (tip: don't use the ring engrave option)... a customer gave me some brass rings to practice with. I don't know if they're brass, or brass plated, but they're not easy to mark. The inside seemed to mark pretty good, visible at least, but then the inside isn't polished...
365403
The outside however, not so visible. In both cases the laser just seemed to 'boil' the surface, but it darkened the inside, not so the outside. After the first pass I hit it several more times, it never got any better. And while it shows up, sorta, you literally can't see it with the naked eye unless you look HARD for it.
365400

Seems to me all non-ferrous metals will always be a crap shoot. Which is why the GOLD versions of this rings, I think I may just pass on. I have no idea what'll happen, and while these kinds of results can likely be sanded and polished away, I'd rather not mess them up...

For engraving brass shells, here you go-- just insist on big shells and tool engrave the things! :D
365401365402

(but these were no fun either) ;)

Kev Williams
08-08-2017, 11:20 AM
Ok, so I opened up my thimblefull's worth of black.... not kidding, after much shaking I emptied the contents into the lid, and it barely half-filled it. I then poured it back, then I added a equal amount of DNA, then a slightly less than equal amount, so the resulting mix I would estimate at 1.8:1.

I opened a new 3/8" wide soft bristle artists fan brush, which is perfect for coating small areas with Cermark.

As everyone else noted, too thin. And simply put, you can't brush this stuff...

From opening it the day before, some residue was left behind on the lid and bottle. Some of this powder ended up on my black work table. It's pure white, and feels every bit like talcum powder. Might be some plaster of paris involved, not sure. But you can't brush it, because it refuses to flow out, even water-thin. It just 'bunches up' around the brush bristles, and attempting to even it out, the brush acts more like a squeegee, makes it worse. I managed to get 2 coats on a small cowbell, which will be my 'acid test', because only my 80 watt Triumph will reliable fuse Cermark to these bells, my 40 and 30 watt Synrad lasers won't. I'll be testing it later today once I get another job out of the way. I'm also going to test it on some stainless with the Triumph. If it works well on either, I can deal with spraying the stuff if necessary.

We shall see :)

>edit - the MFR won't like to hear this, but at the rate of DNA mix to make this work, which is 2:1 or less, this stuff will cost MORE per use than Cermark...

Gary Hair
08-08-2017, 12:06 PM
Ok, so I opened up my thimblefull's worth of black.... not kidding, after much shaking I emptied the contents into the lid, and it barely half-filled it. I then poured it back, then I added a equal amount of DNA, then a slightly less than equal amount, so the resulting mix I would estimate at 1.8:1.

I opened a new 3/8" wide soft bristle artists fan brush, which is perfect for coating small areas with Cermark.

As everyone else noted, too thin. And simply put, you can't brush this stuff...

From opening it the day before, some residue was left behind on the lid and bottle. Some of this powder ended up on my black work table. It's pure white, and feels every bit like talcum powder. Might be some plaster of paris involved, not sure. But you can't brush it, because it refuses to flow out, even water-thin. It just 'bunches up' around the brush bristles, and attempting to even it out, the brush acts more like a squeegee, makes it worse. I managed to get 2 coats on a small cowbell, which will be my 'acid test', because only my 80 watt Triumph will reliable fuse Cermark to these bells, my 40 and 30 watt Synrad lasers won't. I'll be testing it later today once I get another job out of the way. I'm also going to test it on some stainless with the Triumph. If it works well on either, I can deal with spraying the stuff if necessary.

We shall see :)

>edit - the MFR won't like to hear this, but at the rate of DNA mix to make this work, which is 2:1 or less, this stuff will cost MORE per use than Cermark...

I think they shot themselves in the foot by giving out so little for testing. Especially when you consider the Preval sprayer they included - there's not enough in the sample bottles to use with the sprayer... smh

Kev Williams
08-08-2017, 3:15 PM
What's a Preval sprayer, lol.. I got 3 bottles .

Mike Null
08-08-2017, 3:38 PM
They had a brief offer that included a Preval sprayer then they found out that a lot of people preferred sponge brushes.

Tim Bateson
08-08-2017, 3:49 PM
They had a brief offer that included a Preval sprayer then they found out that a lot of people preferred sponge brushes.

I got the same result with the sponge as Kev did with a brush. This stuff is way too thin for anything but a sprayer. If I can't thin it like I can Cermark & use my sponges, it's not likely to save me any money.

John Lifer
08-08-2017, 5:36 PM
Yeah, got mine last week, haven't tried any yet. 10grams per sample is pretty small. They would have been better letting you pick which item you wanted to try and sending 30grams of one item out. Did get preval sprayer too... and I don't think 20grams of liquid will work in it either....
I've been brushing most of my cermark. I did spray some of the laserbond I bought and it does work better spraying that stuff. So I'll get out my airbrush and try these.

Mike Null
08-08-2017, 8:59 PM
My result was with a sponge brush and it was pretty good but I would also like to see a thicker paste which would provide more thinning and application flexibility. That said, the product does work.

Kev Williams
08-09-2017, 3:42 AM
I tested a cowbell and a piece of stainless. I have pics but it's 1:30am, maybe tomorrow..

short version, the stuff DOES work! I'm actually quite pleased with the stainless results!

But there is a slight 'catch'- Whereas Cermark seems to 'deposit' a certain amount to the substrate and all else disintegrates into ash, Enduramark seems to just 'glue' all that was applied to the subtrate with only the very fringes, if that, disintegrating to ash. In other words, if you laser over a hump of this stuff, a black welded-on hump remains, it doesn't seem to level off... This explains the lighter/darker issue with more or less to start with, and why this should be sprayed, but how to explain what's going on? Not that I care that much since I actually got BLACK on stainless using the Triumph! This will open a bunch of doors for me, and give my Triumph a whole lot more work to do! If I have to spray, so be it! BUT, my main concern is: since a substantial amount of this remains raised on the surface, how is sun, rain, snow, lawn sprinklers, dog pee going to affect it? Nearly every piece of stainless I mark will be out in the elements, and in the 15 years I've used it Cermark has proven itself to last outdoors... I really don't need $8000 worth of ski lift operator panels coming back for seconds in a couple of years...

g'nite! ;)

Mike Null
08-10-2017, 12:16 PM
Somebody's listening!

I just received an email from one of the owners of Enduramark and they are thickening their solution to facilitate brushing and spraying. Just alter the dilution to your specific requirements.

For those of you who have received samples, you may place a re-order so that you can test the new version. As I said before, this product does work and it's nice to know that the company is being responsive.

Kev Williams
08-10-2017, 12:24 PM
I concur it DOES work, and if the powers that be can get it to flow out when brushed, that would be fantastic! Otherwise, I still know how to work an airbrush!

Timing on this is typical for me-- I have 400 cowbells to get done and shipped my Monday, and last night I ran off 30 bells, all discolored by Cermark. Only way I can get a replacement batch of laser marking solution, be it 6000, 6030, or Enduramark, I'm looking at ~$80 overnight shipping... meanwhile I'm going to try a few things...

Bill George
08-10-2017, 8:46 PM
Wonder how it works with a fiber on stainless? The only working rotary I have is for the fiber, I did try to order the samples before but the website was screwy, maybe I will try Monday.

Tim Bateson
08-11-2017, 1:35 PM
I heard on another forum that due to customer complaints, Enduramark would start providing a thicker formula. We'll have to wait & see how much that affects the price.

John Lifer
08-11-2017, 3:14 PM
Got an email to that effect a few minutes ago.

Bill George
08-12-2017, 11:13 AM
I just ordered some via email and requested a PayPal Invoice as somehow the website still sucks with IE11. Yes I have used Chrome in the past and love it, but I get tired of all the google directed ads.


ADDED: Got an email from them stating they do not do PayPal and I am the only one in the world having issues with the website. So I got out my MacBook Pro and the website works fine? Not on Internet Explorer 11 and Windows 7 Pro on a laptop however. Got it ordered.... and using PayPal plus $12.72 for shipping, so the "free" shipping offer must be over. I want to see if it works with my Fiber, if so it will really speed things up.

Tim Bateson
08-12-2017, 5:59 PM
I just ordered... ...using PayPal plus $12.72 for shipping, so the "free" shipping offer must be over. I want to see if it works with my Fiber, if so it will really speed things up.

For the better pricing you had to pay by credit card not PayPal.

Bill George
08-12-2017, 7:25 PM
I guess I missed the part about the discount only being good with a Credit Card?? Why would that matter it's both a 3% fee.

Kev Williams
08-12-2017, 8:16 PM
I paid with Paypal--
365910

Bill George
08-14-2017, 1:09 PM
I did also Kev,... finally. I just got an email from Enduramark and because of the website screw up they are refunding the shipping charge and giving me the "special" price. Can't wait to try it.