j/P combo advice

[Nancy Strevelowski]

Looking for advice on purchase of a new J/P combo machine.

Considering:
1. Minimax 12" or 16"
2. Hammer 12" or 16"
3. Grizzly


Thoughts on size, build quality, features?

any advice appreciated.

[Mark Carlson]

I'll start. I'm very happy with my Hammer 12", A3-31 with byrd head. The 16in would have been even better. I've also heard good things about the Minimax machines but Minimax didnt offer carbide insert heads at the time I was looking.

[Chris Padilla]

I have a Minimax 16" J/P with 3 blade Tersa. I love it. I'm not sure of your budget but MM builds good stuff. I also have a 20" band saw by them (MM20).
I also have a Grizzly 10" Table saw...love it as well. I have no Felder/Hammer stuff but they build quality stuff as well. Griz for the table saw, Euro for the J/P, I say. :)

[Andy Giddings]

I have a Hammer C3 which is a 12 JP plus two other functions. Works perfectly but would recommend the Silent Power head for excellent finishing at low noise levels and the dial readout accessory for repeatability

[John Lanciani]

I've had my Rojek 16" J/P for 10 years or so and I'm still completely happy with it. Rojek is a bit of a sleeper brand in the US, not talked about much but they are extremely well built and priced very competitively. http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/index.php

[mreza Salav]

Most of the times you get what you pay for. I have a 14" minimax and am very happy. I'd consider Felder/Minimax above Hammer, and all well above Grizzly.

[Mike Fritz]

I went through the same process over the last six months and decided on the Minimax FS30. I had Powermatic separates (8" jointer, 15" planer) but because of a move to a much smaller shop I wanted to get a combo. I thought about 12" vs. 16". I have about 8000 board feet of cherry, maple, and birch from our family tree farm that will provide me with my lifetime supply of hardwoods, and only 5% of it is over 12" so I don't really need the extra width. The only reason I considered the 16" models was because their table length was closer to the 8" jointer I was used to. But if I do a better job of rough cutting my pieces first then most of the furniture I work with have pieces 4' or less so I really didn't need to longer bed. In the end it was recognizing my space limitations and getting a machine that would be fine for 95% of my needs and being happy with that.

That helped me focus on 12" models and given lots of feedback on this forum I wanted to treat myself to either a Minimax or Hammer that would both be a nice step up from the Powermatics I was used to. I went to visit Hammer/Felder and spent half a day with a sales person and a technician where I saw some good use of their A31. My take aways - I loved the Hammer helical head it was so quiet and the finish looked better than the Byrd head on my Powermatic. I also liked how Hammer thought through all the accessories I might want for a complete package - the attachable tables to increase the table length on occasion, and the depth guage to allow you to go back precisely to the same planer height on a changeover. The only accessory that hasn't been as favorably received on this forum is the mobility package - it moves the table on the short side, not the long side. Perhaps the biggest advantage Hammer had in this comparison was that I actually saw the machine I was interested and I saw a technician use it for a while.

Then I tried to arrange a similar view of a Minimax. I actually went to the Minimax headquarters one day just because I was passing through Atlanta. BUT Minimax has no setup for their classical machine range, just their super high end stuff. So I spent an hour talking to a well informed product manager, but left wanting much more. Thanks to this forum I reached out to a member Jim Becker who has the Minimax 14" J/P (no longer being offered) and I was able to arrange a visit to his shop in Pennsylvania. That was a great day and a real eye opener to consider other Euro machines like the Minimax bandsaws and their sliders - that's another thread. What I saw in person that day was the Minimax has a different sized dust hood that is more compact and the benefit is about half the number of cranks needed during changeover - that really stood out for me coming from owning separates for years and not having to deal with any changeover. Then I reached out to Sam Blasco the Minimax rep and well known woodworker/teacher. It was a very different experience dealing directly with Sam compared to the sales staff at Hammer/Felder. We talked in depth about my particular woodworking needs and how that related to machine and accessory choices.

In the end I went with Minimax for three reasons - 1) their jointer table length is about 4" longer than the same Hammer and that makes a difference for me, 2) I was able to order their version of a segmented head so just like what I wanted on the Hammer; Sam and Jim made great points about considering the Tersa blades and they have many positive attributes, but for me since my neighbor's house will be 15 feet away from my garage, the extra quiet from the segmented heads overwhelmed other considerations, 3) I felt after talking to Sam at length that I will definitely have a shorter changeover process, and that I will have a better chance of automating it by taking off the wheel crank and using a slightly modified socket in my portable drill to raise and lower the table. I pushed Hammer about this and they could not come up with a solution except to consider the Felder 700 series that was way beyond my budget.

I don't know much about the Grizzly, but I know with the Minimax and Hammer you have some great choices in this category/price range. It all gets down to what is most important to you. My decision was based only on what was right for me.

[Frank Martin]

I owned a 12" Grizzly J/P in the past and for the last 4 years have a 12" Minimax CU300 combo. In my opinion Minimax wins hands down. No personal experience on Hammer / Felder.

[Jim Becker]

I own a MiniMax J/P combo and couldn't be happier with the machine and the company. Like Mreza, mine is a 350mm (13.68") wide unit that's no longer made, but if I were buying today, I'd go 16" for sure. I prefer wider, not just to support wider material, but to provide more versatility when flattening and thicknessing "tougher grain" by skewing the workpiece through the cut in various ways. MiniMax and Felder/Hammer are generally the most popular machines discussed here at SMC.

[Andy Giddings]

I went through the same process over the last six months and decided on the Minimax FS30. I had Powermatic separates (8" jointer, 15" planer) but because of a move to a much smaller shop I wanted to get a combo. I thought about 12" vs. 16". I have about 8000 board feet of cherry, maple, and birch from our family tree farm that will provide me with my lifetime supply of hardwoods, and only 5% of it is over 12" so I don't really need the extra width. The only reason I considered the 16" models was because their table length was closer to the 8" jointer I was used to. But if I do a better job of rough cutting my pieces first then most of the furniture I work with have pieces 4' or less so I really didn't need to longer bed. In the end it was recognizing my space limitations and getting a machine that would be fine for 95% of my needs and being happy with that.

That helped me focus on 12" models and given lots of feedback on this forum I wanted to treat myself to either a Minimax or Hammer that would both be a nice step up from the Powermatics I was used to. I went to visit Hammer/Felder and spent half a day with a sales person and a technician where I saw some good use of their A31. My take aways - I loved the Hammer helical head it was so quiet and the finish looked better than the Byrd head on my Powermatic. I also liked how Hammer thought through all the accessories I might want for a complete package - the attachable tables to increase the table length on occasion, and the depth guage to allow you to go back precisely to the same planer height on a changeover. The only accessory that hasn't been as favorably received on this forum is the mobility package - it moves the table on the short side, not the long side. Perhaps the biggest advantage Hammer had in this comparison was that I actually saw the machine I was interested and I saw a technician use it for a while.

Then I tried to arrange a similar view of a Minimax. I actually went to the Minimax headquarters one day just because I was passing through Atlanta. BUT Minimax has no setup for their classical machine range, just their super high end stuff. So I spent an hour talking to a well informed product manager, but left wanting much more. Thanks to this forum I reached out to a member Jim Becker who has the Minimax 14" J/P (no longer being offered) and I was able to arrange a visit to his shop in Pennsylvania. That was a great day and a real eye opener to consider other Euro machines like the Minimax bandsaws and their sliders - that's another thread. What I saw in person that day was the Minimax has a different sized dust hood that is more compact and the benefit is about half the number of cranks needed during changeover - that really stood out for me coming from owning separates for years and not having to deal with any changeover. Then I reached out to Sam Blasco the Minimax rep and well known woodworker/teacher. It was a very different experience dealing directly with Sam compared to the sales staff at Hammer/Felder. We talked in depth about my particular woodworking needs and how that related to machine and accessory choices.

In the end I went with Minimax for three reasons - 1) their jointer table length is about 4" longer than the same Hammer and that makes a difference for me, 2) I was able to order their version of a segmented head so just like what I wanted on the Hammer; Sam and Jim made great points about considering the Tersa blades and they have many positive attributes, but for me since my neighbor's house will be 15 feet away from my garage, the extra quiet from the segmented heads overwhelmed other considerations, 3) I felt after talking to Sam at length that I will definitely have a shorter changeover process, and that I will have a better chance of automating it by taking off the wheel crank and using a slightly modified socket in my portable drill to raise and lower the table. I pushed Hammer about this and they could not come up with a solution except to consider the Felder 700 series that was way beyond my budget.

I don't know much about the Grizzly, but I know with the Minimax and Hammer you have some great choices in this category/price range. It all gets down to what is most important to you. My decision was based only on what was right for me.
Mike, there's at least one thread on SMC about automating the height adjustment on a Hammer JP. Personally I've never understood the need for this as it takes all of a minute to crank it from one end to another :-)

[John TenEyck]

Another happy MiniMax FS35 owner here. Bought it used and couldn't be happier unless it was 16" instead of 14". Mine has the mortiser accessory, too, and it is very useful for making large and deep mortises. I have no idea how comfortable you are buying used, but really good used machines become available now and then. But if that's of no interest, and you want to buy new, I think you'll be very happy with either MiniMax or Hammer. I'd go with whichever company you feel better about and gives you the best deal. For the price of these things I wouldn't feel bashful about making them work for the sale. And I wouldn't rule out Grizzly either, though I have no direct knowledge of those particular machines. Some of Grizzly's machines are every bit the equal of their Euro counterparts, though anyone who owns the Euro machines will argue otherwise. In any case, if you have the funds and space, go big. Good luck.

John

[Don Peters]

I have the 12" MiniMax with the Tersa head. Got it about six months ago. I put the M46 blades in it, and it's perfect. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Sam Blasco is the rep. He keeps trying to help, but there's nothing for him to do. Buy one and you'll be happy.

[Rod Sheridan]

Nancy, both MiniMax and Felder/Hammer make a machine you'll be happy with for life.

The one advantage Felder/Hammer have is the "Silent Power" cutter black, which is very quiet and the only "MAN" rated jointer cutter block I'm aware of. (This means it has been designed and tested for low incidence of kickback, and low kickback energy). Jointer kickbacks although less common than table saw kickbacks can result in serious finger injuries.

That said, I think the most important aspect would be proximity to a dealer, and dealer support. Unfortunately in Toronto my MiniMax experience was a disaster, and Felder have their flagship Canadian location in Toronto. In your location the reverse may well be true.

For the Hammer machine I have the metric height readout (much better than the Imperial one because the machine is 2mm/revolution of the handwheel). I also have a couple of table extensions, one of which is always on the planer outfeed table so the shorter pieces don't fall on the floor....Regards, Rod.

[Brian W Evans]

The MiniMax owners above have said it all, I think, but I will just add that I have a MM FS41 Classic (16") J/P combo and am extremely happy with it. I have the tersa head and have been pleasantly surprised at the durability of the blades and the quality of the cut.

[Nancy Strevelowski]

thanks all for the great advice, i'll likely go with the minimax when they have their next sale.

[Jim Becker]

thanks all for the great advice, i'll likely go with the minimax when they have their next sale.
Contact Sam Blasco...you may still be able to get AWFS pricing as that show just recently concluded.

[Alan Lightstone]

I just leave an old Milwaukee electric drill with a properly sized socket next to my J/P, and lowering / raising the table takes seconds and no effort. Not sure how that works with the Minimax and the Hammer.

[Bernie May]

I epoxied a nut on my hammer A31 handwheel to be able to use a battery drill with socket. works great. I drilled a few holes in the wheel to increase binding of the nut.

[John TenEyck]

Raising/lowering the planer bed on my MiniMax FS35 is fast and easy. I only have to lower the bed about 2-1/2" for the dust hood to fit under jointer outfeed table. That might take 5 seconds or so to do after planing even very thin stock, and is a non-issue to me.

John

[Chris Parks]

I had to make the same decision and came down on the side of the Hammer due to the silent head and the in handle height gauge which is absolutely accurate and repeatable. No test cuts, no guessing just dial in the measurement and it is spot on. I don't think either machine gives a better machining result than the other but straight blades are so easily damaged and the whole blade has to be replaced which I did not want and the silent head cutters last far longer than a straight blades. If the MM had had a equivalent head I would have bought that.

[Prashun Patel]

I own the Hammer A3-31 (12"). I like it. It's reliable and accurate. The silent cutter block is nice. It does a good job with all (the ones I've tried at least) kinds of wood and grain.

I would say, though, that during my research, I was led to believe the Tersa knives on the Minimax are very easy to replace. I've not read a Minimax owner complaining about their knives.

[David Kumm]

Tersa vs insert heads are more personal preference than one being better than the other. A straight knife head does need a better build than an insert head. A solid chipbreaker and pressure bar benefit the knife head so the lower end machines really see a benefit from the insert head. The better the machine, the less difference. I've got a Byrd on a small planer, and Tersa on the big one. The Tersa gets any stock with knots or potential issues ( dirty, knarly ) because I can switch out to old blades quickly or shift one slightly if dinged. The insert head gets the smaller stuff and good wood so I don't need to move inserts. If you always work with skip planed hardwood and decent stock, the insert is pretty fool proof. If you take rough stuff and make it pretty, Tersa is flexible. I'd not make the head the deal breaker unless the build is equal and your type of work makes one beneficial. Head diameter is important in my world. 5-6" beats 3-4" so look at that. Also look at the design of the table hinges and how the table rests on its supports when closed. Tables that don't return consistently to their settings gets old in a hurry. Also look at the motor frame size vs the HP ( KW ) and it's rating. Euro motors have different nomenaclature but ( S1, S6, etc ) but some will be continuous and some in the 40-60% range. You also want the largest frame per hp. A 10 hp 90L frame is not comparable to a 112 frame motor of the same HP. Again not a deal breaker for hobby use but good to know if comparing. I'd also look at the base construction. I'm a proponent of stout base design. You don't want to worry about tables racking if you move the machine around and it should be able to tolerate being a little out of level and still maintain settings. Dave

[mark mcfarlane]

FYI, Minimax introduced spiral heads about two years ago (https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/classical-machines/scm-and-minimax-devices/xylent-cutterhead). SCM's website says: "This device is available on every SCM and Minimax surface planer, thicknesser, planer thicknesser and combination machine."

..., but as of 5/2016 I was told it was only available on the Elite class machines in the USA. I do not know if availability has changed or not in the past year.

Another spiral option for Minimax is a byrd-shellix head.

I stuck with the Tersa head. I like the idea of 3 minutes to change an entire set of blades.

However, I still suspect the Xylent is quieter.

[Mike Fritz]

Mark - I have a Minimax FS30 with the Xylent head on order, expected to be delivered in September. I worked with Sam Blasco on this. The main difference is I could of had a Tersa head machine immediately, with the Xylent head I will have had to wait about 3 months to take delivery.

[Matthew Hills]

To David's post--What are the head diameters of the minimax and hammer j/p?

And for those looking at the minimax spiral--how does the upcharge compare to that on the hammer? Are the patterns similar?