Newbie saw questions - hard to start cuts?

[Monte Milanuk]

So... I've got a few conventional back saws that I picked up either via yard sales, given by friends who'd inherited them, etc. One Craftsman, with miter box (looks like probably made by Miller Falls). Two Disston - one huge beast, maybe 24" long x 6" tall plate, and one smaller one, maybe 14".

Condition as they came to me was poor / dull (except the Craftsman, which was just dull). I was going to send one or more off to Bad Axe Toolworks to get sharpened, but then found a local sharpener and figured I'd give them a try.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong... to my unrefined senses the saws 'feel' sharp - the teeth feel sharp to the touch - but trying to get them started cutting is a bear. Like trying to pull start a chainsaw by dragging it over a log! Maybe I've been spoiled using cheap Japanese style ryoba saws from the big box stores, but once these back saws get started, they're slow to cut and leave a huge kerf. Even trying to pull the saw back to get it started causes it to skitter all over, chewing up the board.

I'm starting to wonder if its just me, or if the sharpening job(s) wasn't as good as I'd hoped?

...and on the flip side, I've been having fits using the rip teeth on the ryoba saws I have. I recently got a new Gyokucho ryoba and dozuki for my birthday. Years ago, I received a rip dozuki as a gift, but hadn't used it til now. The dozukis I have no problem getting started cutting, and they cut fast and precise. I'd hoped the Gyokucho ryoba would be a little nicer than the Irwin pull saw I have in the home carpentry tool bucket, and it is. The crosscut teeth start and cut easy - not *quite* as easy as the dozuki, but close. The rip teeth are still confounding me. Even if I get the cut started with the crosscut teeth, and the then flip the saw over and use the finer tpi teeth near the base (as seen in a few videos) it still balks at cutting, and when it does, its rough and uncontrolled, and if I stop its hell getting started again. Not working with anything exotic here just yet... just relatively clear 1x pine.

Having problems on both fronts makes me wonder if its just a defective Indian, not the arrow(s), but I'm not sure where to start narrowing things down.

[Doug Hepler]

Monte,

I don't know what to suggest except that you google "how to saw christopher schwarz"

Doug

[Robert Engel]

Could be technique, could be the saw.

Kind of sounds like the set is too wide.

One thing I know is not all sharpeners know how to properly set teeth.

You can buy a couple saw sets from Lee Valley for not much money.

[Jim Koepke]

Not working with anything exotic here just yet... just relatively clear 1x pine.

Pine is in a way an "exotic wood" on to itself. When rip cutting the kerf may tend to close up on you and pinch the saw.

I have to head into town so I can not give a longer answer at this time. Google > saw like a butterfly < to find an episode of The Woodwrights' Shop on sawing.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

You might try stoning the side of the teeth on one of the saws.

Another alternative is to put the saws in a vice and compress the set.
Maybe just the front inch.

Or, start the cut with successive back strokes while lifting the saw slightly to minimize the weight of the saw.

[Pete Taran]

It could be a lot of things, but if the saw feels sharp, I bet it's you. Many people not acquainted with using Western saws put downward pressure on the saw while trying to start a cut. This makes the teeth dig in like fishhooks before the kerf gets started and is impossible to proceed. Take the saw and imagine you are sawing in air. Now do that same motion while just contacting the wood. The saw will start to form a kerf even if it's dull or misfiled. Once the kerf is started, you can use a little downward pressure. If it stalls you are pressing to hard and the gullets are clogged with dust. Freshly sharpened saws are more difficult to start than those that have been around for a while. If it still stalls and jumps once the kerf is established, it could be the saw filing job.

If you are used to saws that cut on the pull stroke, you have to educate yourself on the ways of the western saw.

[ken hatch]

So... I've got a few conventional back saws that I picked up either via yard sales, given by friends who'd inherited them, etc. One Craftsman, with miter box (looks like probably made by Miller Falls). Two Disston - one huge beast, maybe 24" long x 6" tall plate, and one smaller one, maybe 14".

Condition as they came to me was poor / dull (except the Craftsman, which was just dull). I was going to send one or more off to Bad Axe Toolworks to get sharpened, but then found a local sharpener and figured I'd give them a try.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong... to my unrefined senses the saws 'feel' sharp - the teeth feel sharp to the touch - but trying to get them started cutting is a bear. Like trying to pull start a chainsaw by dragging it over a log! Maybe I've been spoiled using cheap Japanese style ryoba saws from the big box stores, but once these back saws get started, they're slow to cut and leave a huge kerf. Even trying to pull the saw back to get it started causes it to skitter all over, chewing up the board.

I'm starting to wonder if its just me, or if the sharpening job(s) wasn't as good as I'd hoped?

...and on the flip side, I've been having fits using the rip teeth on the ryoba saws I have. I recently got a new Gyokucho ryoba and dozuki for my birthday. Years ago, I received a rip dozuki as a gift, but hadn't used it til now. The dozukis I have no problem getting started cutting, and they cut fast and precise. I'd hoped the Gyokucho ryoba would be a little nicer than the Irwin pull saw I have in the home carpentry tool bucket, and it is. The crosscut teeth start and cut easy - not *quite* as easy as the dozuki, but close. The rip teeth are still confounding me. Even if I get the cut started with the crosscut teeth, and the then flip the saw over and use the finer tpi teeth near the base (as seen in a few videos) it still balks at cutting, and when it does, its rough and uncontrolled, and if I stop its hell getting started again. Not working with anything exotic here just yet... just relatively clear 1x pine.

Having problems on both fronts makes me wonder if its just a defective Indian, not the arrow(s), but I'm not sure where to start narrowing things down.

Monte,

Two clues in Red, but first I've looked at many local sharpened saws and most of the time found they were poorly sharpened many times with cows and calfs or other problems and almost always over set. Before giving up send 'em to Mark. It is worth the time, trouble and money. BTW, there are other saw sharpeners, some on this forum, that will and can do a good job as well.

Back to the red, hard to start can be technique and one clue is your pulling to start. The start should be on the push stroke while you try not to start, in other words, you are pushing the saw forward but holding almost all the pressure off the saw. Once it starts to cut let the weight of the saw do the cutting, your job is to move the saw back and forth in line with almost no pressure other than the weight of the saw. The slow to cut can be several things, too passive rake, to much set, a un-jointed tooth line, cows and calfs, or just a dull saw. With a wide kerf you can count on one of the problems being too much set. You can correct that but with the rest as described I'd send the saws off so you will have a known to work with. Hard to learn if you do not know if the problem is you are the saw.

ken

[lowell holmes]

Back saws are typically filed as rip saws. If you file the front 1 " of the saw cross cut, it will be easier to start.

I agree with ken, light pressure on the start works. If you practice, it will not take long to get the hang of it.
I had the same issues when I started using dovetail saws. My first dovetail saw was a Lie Nielsen and IIRC, it was a beast to start.
I still have it as well as their carcass saws. I don't have an issue with it anymore.

They used to say "Hold the saw loosely like it was a baby bird".
My first dovetail saw was also a Lie Nielsen and it was a bear to start. I don't experience that anymore.

[Pat Barry]

Its possible that the rake of the saw teeth is too aggressive, also the tooth pitch may be too little. Maybe you could post a picture with a ruler next to the tooth line so the experts can visualize the tooth pitch / geometry. It would help me understand better.

[lowell holmes]

I agree with Pat.

[Jim Koepke]

but once these back saws get started, they're slow to cut and leave a huge kerf. Even trying to pull the saw back to get it started causes it to skitter all over, chewing up the board.

These are both signs of too much set.

The part about cutting slow is likely due to too much rake or too many teeth per inch. There isn't any information about those in the original post.

To get to a good starting point about understanding saws a very good site is vintagesaws.com on the left side of the page are a bunch of saws, click on the one labeled 'Library' and especially read the one about sharpening saws. Even if there is no interest in sharpening saws it is good information to have when sending a saw out to be sharpened.

For starting a saw a somewhat loose grip is good. The heel of my hand is against the bottom horn and uses that like a lever to 'lift' the saw at the beginning of a cut. As the saw starts to make a kerf, my hand is gradually lifted to allow the weight of the saw to press against the work.

jtk

[steven c newman]

When using that No. 4 Disston backsaw....I try to start back by the handle, rather than further out. Then once it starts, I can go with a longer stroke. Same with the other saws I use.

[Bill McDermott]

Starting on the push is unnatural, but practice it. You need to get it in your head that it will work and then go for it with confidence that the saw will not catch. Use your guide hand carefully and intentionally. Just take a small bite off one of the corners to get started, then chase that line across or down. If you start the saw moving in the air, right above the line then very gently, but confidently drop into the wood, you will have some momentum working for you. Try to learn how to start western saws on the push. Getting there helped my accuracy. You can always draw the saw backwards to initiate a kerf, but "going for it" and just simply hitting the line with confidence and sawing is fun. Of course, some saws on some boards just will not start without diving in.

[Pat Barry]

Starting on the push is unnatural, but practice it. You need to get it in your head that it will work and then go for it with confidence that the saw will not catch. Use your guide hand carefully and intentionally. Just take a small bite off one of the corners to get started, then chase that line across or down. If you start the saw moving in the air, right above the line then very gently, but confidently drop into the wood, you will have some momentum working for you. Try to learn how to start western saws on the push. Getting there helped my accuracy. You can always draw the saw backwards to initiate a kerf, but "going for it" and just simply hitting the line with confidence and sawing is fun. Of course, some saws on some boards just will not start without diving in.
Like many things in life, take for example: throwing a ball, hitting a golf ball, swinging a bat to hit a baseball, casting a fishing rod, using a hammer; it is much better to go back first then forward. I always do this with my saw and have never felt comfortable just going for it as you say. The teeth always tend to catch and the saw jumps or tears out a small, or sometimes big, chunk of material. I can't justify to myself that it is better to start on the push stroke than to do a quick backstroke and then forward. The human body always performs better in this mode anyway due to a better sense of rhythm / momentum. So my question: Why is it preferred or better to start on the push stroke?

[Monte Milanuk]

Back saws are typically filed as rip saws.

Yeah... as much as I hate to admit it, this is probably a large part of the issue. I can only presume the other two larger saws were hopefully filed as crosscut, and I assumed... yeah, 'assumed' :rolleyes: the smaller Disston was setup the same. Turns out it appears to be filed for rip... setup a board and tried doing a bunch of rip cuts... and it performed much, much better. Started easier, cut faster, didn't skitter all over trying to start... sheesh.

[lowell holmes]

I have three Lie Nielsen back saws, a dove tail saw and two carcass saws.
One carcass saw is filed crosscut and the other is filed rip. On the dovetail,
it doesn't make much difference, but on the carcass saws, it does.

[Warren Mickley]

Why is it preferred or better to start on the push stroke?

When you start on the back stroke the saw tends to crush fibers rather than cutting cleanly. These crushed fibers make it harder to start pushing than is the case with wood that is intact.

[Stewie Simpson]

Carcass Saws are sharpened to suit cross grain work.

[Bill McDermott]

Pat, I hear you. I learned to start by drawing back and that is simply how it was done for years. I still draw back to start very often. I suggested going for it with a push start to Monte because that was suggested to me, when I was trying to get better joinery cuts "off the saw". I tried the push start and it taught me how to control the downward pressure of the saw - and to develop confidence. It was an exercise that helped me saw more accurately which I do not think I would have tried had I not been challenged.

[lowell holmes]

They are awesome to use. I bought the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw in 2002 and the others as they were introduced.

As far as I am concerned, they set the standard. I like having the rip and crosscut tenon saws.

[steven c newman]

Look closely..
365270
That is a Disston No. 4.....14", 11 ppi rip. Has been my "do-everything" backsaw.