Trouble with a 45 degree cut on the table saw

[Tim M Tuttle]

Evening,

My table saw came with zci and tonight I tried for the first time making a 45 degree cut. I tried tilting the blade without it on and it started to get hung up on the insert. I lowered the blade all the way down, turned on the saw and slowly raised the blade (assuming this was okay as I had done it with my dado insert). The blade never really cut the insert, got really hot, and I could smell the insert burning. Turned off the saw and abandoned my attempt till I could get some advice from y'all. Do I need to buy a specific insert for a 45 degree cut? Something not right with my saw? It's a SawStop contractor saw if that is of any relevance.

Thanks

[Bill Orbine]

First of all, do make sure you have the blade on the right direction................

[Tim M Tuttle]

It's correct.

[Marc Jeske]

I am far from expert, have not yet used ZCI.

But If I'm not mistaken, you cannot cut a 45 on a zci like you can w a square to table blade.

Because the blade rises straight up.

I'll get you some more info,. Marc

[Marc Jeske]

I don't have your exact answer, but I'm sure you'll easily find it here--- Marc

https://www.google.com/search?q=saw+zero+insert+45&oq=saw+zero+insert+45&aqs=chrome..69i57.10593j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Marc Jeske]

I dunno, been curious and looking, no luck yet.

Question - When you remove the insert, and tilt blade to 45, when you raise or lower, does the blade go straight up an down vertically, or follow the 45 plane ?? Marc

[Cary Falk]

Is the riving knife catching on the zci and preventing the blade from raising?

[Lee Schierer]

It sounds like your riving knife is the problem. You would have to remove it to cut through a new ZCI, don't use the one that is cut for 90 degrees. There are quite a few sawstop owners here so maybe one of them has solved this issue.

I use a ZCI on my Craftsman saw and cut through a new ZCI at any bevel angle the same way you would when the blade is at 90 degrees with no problem. I do not have a riving knife on my saw.

[Tim M Tuttle]

The blade follows the 45 angle. I can make cuts to about 40 degrees and then it starts hitting the zci but wont cut through it.

[Tim M Tuttle]

The knife wasnt causing a problem that I can remember. I'll check it when I head out to my garage in a bit.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the SawStop PCS and have not had any problems with 45 degree cuts, with the standard saw plate, with the riving knife installed. The saw plate is not "tight" to the blade any more after a number of years of use, however.

Mike

[Kyle Iwamoto]

When you say the blade gets hung up when you tilt, is it still in the center of your ZCI? I don't own your saw, but when I tilted my blade for the first time on my ICS, the blade did rub the insert a bit. Just a little. Turned on the saw and the cut away the parts that were rubbing. Worked fine after that.

[Tim M Tuttle]

When you say the blade gets hung up when you tilt, is it still in the center of your ZCI? I don't own your saw, but when I tilted my blade for the first time on my ICS, the blade did rub the insert a bit. Just a little. Turned on the saw and the cut away the parts that were rubbing. Worked fine after that.

Which is what I tried to do as well however it wasnt cutting the insert. Almost like it was just rubbing against.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Raise, tilt, then turn on the saw? It should not make a difference, your riving knife could indeed be a problem.
Or your blade is not centered in the insert in the first place. Your blade should be exactly in the center of your insert.

[Mike Henderson]

Give SawStop a call and see what they say. Could be a misadjustment in the factory setup of the saw.

Mike

[glenn bradley]

Which is what I tried to do as well however it wasnt cutting the insert. Almost like it was just rubbing against.

Of course it was. The only cutting part of the blade is the teeth. Once the teeth have cut up flush with the plate, the plate just rubs the insert. My blade will not drop far enough into the saw body to allow me to angle the blade, clamp the insert in place and then saw up through the insert by raising it. To resolve this I routed a slot where the blade's teeth were hitting the underside of the insert when in the lowest position; just enough to clear the teeth so I could start the saw. Now I could confirm the angle of the blade, lower it, clamp the insert in place, start the saw and raise the blade through the insert. You will have to lower the blade again to remove the insert if it is truly a ZCI. If you are going to use the same insert for both jobs, the process is the same, you just end up with a widened slot for the blade.

[Simon MacGowen]

I am far from expert, have not yet used ZCI.

But If I'm not mistaken, you cannot cut a 45 on a zci like you can w a square to table blade.

Because the blade rises straight up.

I'll get you some more info,. Marc

You know what you're talking about?!

All blades rise straight and up at whatever angle. Straight just not perpendicular, when at 45 deg.

Simon

[Brian Henderson]

Honestly, for things like that, I never use a ZCI, I use a regular insert, raise the blade into position and use blue painter's tape to tape around the blade so I get the same effect. Trying to raise a blade at 45 degrees through an insert is difficult at best.

[lowell holmes]

I made a wooden insert for my 10" Delta table saw. It is oak wood. I suggest you try it.
I had a plastic insert and a metal insert. The wooden insert is about 15 years old.
When you tilt the blade to 45 degrees and extend the blade while running it will chamfer
the slot for you.

[Marc Jeske]

So I am still unclear.

Pretend for a moment I have no tablesaw to go look at.

Ya, I know that sounds weird.

Long story.

I do NOT intimately know how that whole trunnion and raising mechanism works, have not played w that for long time.

No, I am not in "Lockup".


I DO know that if the blade is 90deg to the table, raising or lowering, of course it goes straight up and down..

But clarify for me please, If I have the blade tilted to 45, and I raise and lower it, do the saw teeth move in a vertical, plumb, and 90 degree to the table plane, OR, at a 45 ??

Hard to explain for me, but you know what I mean... I just hope someone explains the answer so I can understand.

If plumb up and down, the side of the blade would be rubbing the new ZCI.

If at 45, then it would cut the ZCI.

So is the first of those the problem OP is having ??

I suppose I could go look at some videos when I have time. Marc

[Tim M Tuttle]

Of course it was. The only cutting part of the blade is the teeth. Once the teeth have cut up flush with the plate, the plate just rubs the insert. My blade will not drop far enough into the saw body to allow me to angle the blade, clamp the insert in place and then saw up through the insert by raising it. To resolve this I routed a slot where the blade's teeth were hitting the underside of the insert when in the lowest position; just enough to clear the teeth so I could start the saw. Now I could confirm the angle of the blade, lower it, clamp the insert in place, start the saw and raise the blade through the insert. You will have to lower the blade again to remove the insert if it is truly a ZCI. If you are going to use the same insert for both jobs, the process is the same, you just end up with a widened slot for the blade.

If I lower the blade all the way, tilt to 45 and turn it on, it spins fine. Once I start raising it it start to rub. I would think that with the teeth being wider than the body of the blade it would cut away anything that could rub on the blade. However, it's not. I'll take a video and send it over to SawStop and see what they say. I ran into this problem when I was trying to cut a french cleat for a clamp rack but ended up just mounting the rack directly to the wall so no need for the 45 right now.

[Marc Jeske]

I really think this is not peculiar to SS saws, nor any defect.

Prettty sure it's just the geometry of blade raising / tilt mechanisms.

If I had a saw available to put my hands and eyes on, this would be answered to me in 5 seconds.

Now this has me curious - Going to go find a video answer in a bit here.

Don't change your channel................... Marc

[Tim M Tuttle]

So I am still unclear.

Pretend for a moment I have no tablesaw to go look at.

Ya, I know that sounds weird.

Long story.

I do NOT intimately know how that whole trunnion and raising mechanism works, have not played w that for long time.

No, I am not in "Lockup".


I DO know that if the blade is 90deg to the table, raising or lowering, of course it goes straight up and down..

But clarify for me please, If I have the blade tilted to 45, and I raise and lower it, do the saw teeth move in a vertical, plumb, and 90 degree to the table plane, OR, at a 45 ??

Hard to explain for me, but you know what I mean... I just hope someone explains the answer so I can understand.

If plumb up and down, the side of the blade would be rubbing the new ZCI.

If at 45, then it would cut the ZCI.

So is the first of those the problem OP is having ??

I suppose I could go look at some videos when I have time. Marc

Whichever angle the blade is at, it raises or lowers on that same plane. If it's 90 then it goes straight up, if it's 45 then it raises to the left and up. As good as I can describe with the written word. :D

[Marc Jeske]

I searched Youtube for 30 minutes, hoping to see how a blade moves when it is tilted...... NO luck, not found.

So I'm still lost.


Tim - IF that is true, if I understand what you just said.... then what is the problem... ?

Other than possibly at 45 the blade will not lower totally under table, not allowing the insert to even initially be able to be placed and then clamped down ?

That's the main problem I have read.

So when you remove your plate, and set blade at 45, and raise and lower it, it moves deeper into the angle cut, and NOT pushing against the blade body it seems you are saying.

So I don't get the problem then. Maybe dumb here. NO saw to go look at dammit.

Live in the woods, no neighbor, no friend w table saw, and MY saw is currently in storage lockup, buried.

And I never did much 45 work, and don't recall blade motion geometry.

Frustrated here. Marc

[Marc Jeske]

Tim - IF you can technically do it, put a copy of video, or link, HERE also please. Marc

[Prashun Patel]

Would this work?

Start your blade at 90 degrees. Turn the saw on, then tilt the blade.

[Tim M Tuttle]

Tim - IF you can technically do it, put a copy of video, or link, HERE also please. Marc

I'll take a video of it tonight and post it.

[Tim M Tuttle]

Would this work?

Start your blade at 90 degrees. Turn the saw on, then tilt the blade.

Tried that, it didnt like it.

[Cary Falk]

Tried that, it didnt like it.

It would only work if the blade was no farther into the ZCI than the depth of the teeth. Even then I don't think the teeth would cut very well sideways. At any other blade height the only place that the blade would cut would be at the front and rear of the blade. The blade plate rubs on the ZCI in the middle and prevents the blade from tilting.

Have you removed the riving knife, move the blade below the table, tilt the blade, put the ZCI in place, turn on the saw and raise the blade yet?

If that doesn't work then remove the ZCI, leave the riving knife in and do everything else above but turn on the saw and observe what is happing as you raise the blade.

[lowell holmes]

Try one of these

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/dewalt-dw744-746-zero-clearance-insert?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA&utm_term=142022&utm_content=All%20Products

[Marc Jeske]

SUCH a simple thing, still waiting for the answer.

All it takes is someone w a 45 tilted blade seeing how it rises.

Pretty darn simple. Marc

[Ray Newman]

"Fine Woodworking", Tools and Shop 2016, issue #251 has an article 'bout making a Zero Clearance Insert (ZCI). Also includes special instructions for making a ZCI for a SawStop, which needs to have sections of the underside partially relieved/cut out so as to clear the arbor nut.

Infinity Tools has a special ZCI with replaceable inserts for SawStop: https://www.infinitytools.com/saw-blades-accessories/table-saw/table-saw-zero-clearance-inserts/sawstop-zero-clearance-throat-plate-with-two-inserts

[Mike Henderson]

SUCH a simple thing, still waiting for the answer.

All it takes is someone w a 45 tilted blade seeing how it rises.

Pretty darn simple. Marc

Mine just moves outward at the 45 degree angle. It's exactly the same movement as if the blade was at 90 degrees, but the blade moves outward at 45 degrees.

Mike

[Cary Falk]

SUCH a simple thing, still waiting for the answer.

All it takes is someone w a 45 tilted blade seeing how it rises.

Pretty darn simple. Marc

Tim already answered that question.

[Frankie Hunt]

Try putting a smaller blade on the saw. (such as a 7 1/4" blade like used on a skill saw). With the blade fully lowered, turn on the saw and raise the blade thru the insert (gotta hold down the insert with the edge of your rip fence). All done while at the 45 degree angle. Then try with your 10" blade.

That is how I must do it with my Unisaw as the blade does not go down far enough to clear the insert.

All this is assuming no splitter or riving knife is attached. Once the blade slot is cut you can make clearance for those.

[Marc Jeske]

Cary - If Tim explained it in Post #23, Which I read, then I still don't understand the problem.

We have already talked about the blade at 45 possibly not disappearing fully under the table.

That seems to be common.

If the blade moves in a proper direction, then what impedes his cut ?

Makes NO sense to me.

Arbor nut and washer clearance should be obvious, not an issue to discuss.


Please explain to me "like I'm a 5 yr old"

Thank all for the patience. Marc

[Cary Falk]

Cary - If Tim explained it in Post #23, Which I read, then I still don't understand the problem.

We have already talked about the blade at 45 possibly not disappearing fully under the table.

That seems to be common.

If the blade moves in a proper direction, then what impedes his cut ?

Makes NO sense to me.

Arbor nut and washer clearance should be obvious, not an issue to discuss.


Please explain to me "like I'm a 5 yr old"

Thank all for the patience. Marc


I thought you were waiting for an answer to how his blade raises. This he answered. Now it sounds like you wanted an answer to what the obstruction is. He has not answered this.

[Marc Jeske]

The Missus tells me I am overly demanding. Marc

[johnny means]

Would this work?

Start your blade at 90 degrees. Turn the saw on, then tilt the blade.
Oh God, no!

[David Spurr]

That was my guess, arbor nut rubbing insert.

[Tim Janssen]

Oh God, no!

Why not. I can do that with my SS. I would think you can do that with any table saw, provided it has been set up properly.

Tim

[Tim Janssen]

Try putting a smaller blade on the saw. (such as a 7 1/4" blade like used on a skill saw). With the blade fully lowered, turn on the saw and raise the blade thru the insert (gotta hold down the insert with the edge of your rip fence). All done while at the 45 degree angle. Then try with your 10" blade.

That is how I must do it with my Unisaw as the blade does not go down far enough to clear the insert.

All this is assuming no splitter or riving knife is attached. Once the blade slot is cut you can make clearance for those.

You can not use a smaller blade on the SS saws. There has to be a specific distance between the teeth of the blade and the brake cartridge. With a 7 1/4 blade you are well beyond the range of adjustment of the brake cartridge.

Tim

[Tim M Tuttle]

SUCH a simple thing, still waiting for the answer.

All it takes is someone w a 45 tilted blade seeing how it rises.

Pretty darn simple. Marc

Here is the video of how the blade raises/lowers.


https://youtu.be/ZmojmzsOWf8

Here is a pic showing that the riving knife is out of the way.

http://i.imgur.com/H6YDeNi.jpg

I didnt want to try and hold a camera in one hand and adjust the blade in the other with the saw running so I dont have video of that right now. However, I am getting a tripod later today to do some unrelated filming and I'll see about making a video of the actual cut then.