There is a "new" manufactor of high end forged chisels from the north.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

If you google Northmen Guild you will find their website, they produce lots of stuff not related to woodworking also but im sure some creekers will find them interesting anyway.
However I would like some comments on their set of chisels. There is only limited info on them available on the website and I have i three different ways tried to get more info without reply. Anyway if someone like Stan would look at it and tell me what his first thougt is I would appreciate it. Comments from others are ofcourse welcome too :-)

http://northmen.com/en/products/woodworking-tools/bench-chisels

[Normand Leblanc]

Expensive chisel set but beautiful. Let's see what the others have to say.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Expensive chisel set but beautiful. Let's see what the others have to say.
Very expensive indeed :cool:

[Jim Koepke]

Six chisels for $1290 +shipping, that is ~$215+ per chisel.

For my work, that is enough information to know the purchase price is going to be tough to recapture.

Unless there is a heavy import tax you would likely do better with Veritas PM-V11 chisels.

jtk

[ken hatch]

I can't see where they bring much to the table....Blue steel? Much rather have #1 White Paper from a master craftsman for much less money. Maybe it's the box, nice looking box but not sure it is worth $600 USD or there about. I wish them luck.

ken

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I can't see where they bring much to the table....Blue steel? Much rather have #1 White Paper from a master craftsman for much less money. Maybe it's the box, nice looking box but not sure it is worth $600 USD or there about. I wish them luck.

ken
Can you elaborate on why you would prefer white steel?

[Hasin Haroon]

Can't see myself every wanting to purchase these chisels, and I'm a sucker for new and fine tools. IMO if you can afford them, the Veritas PM-V11 chisels Jim mentioned are the best chisels you can purchase - the handles are beautifully crafted, the steel is top notch and goes forever without needing sharpening, not to mention backed by Veritas customer service. Fine Japanese chisels in white steel seem to perform just as well from what I hear (don't have any myself). If you want fine chisels at a much lower price, the Ashley Ile's bench chisels are excellent value, the O1 steel sharpens fast and takes a keen edge.

The only chisels I would splurge for beyond the PMV11 cost would be the Blue spruce chisels, and I'm ashamed to admit it's because of their beauty and innovation in some of their other tools. In reality however, I think I would get a set of fine Japanese chisels instead, as I'm not a fan of A2 steel.

My point is, I don't see the point of these tools - their steel is nothing special, they aren't particularly beautiful, and they don't have the same pedigree as other chisels half (and even less) the price. Most fine toolmakers are small enough that their products are bespoke enough for me without needing to get a craftsman in the northern forests make me tools out of their cabins, which seems to be what niche these tools are supposed to fit...and that coming from someone from Edmonton, AB, the northernmost metropolis in North America.

[Warren Mickley]

Expensive chisel set but beautiful. Let's see what the others have to say.

It is pitiful. Traditional bench chisels were tang chisels; socket chisels were carpenter's tools. These are too heavy for serious work. The 12mm chisel is 220 grams. My current 1/2 inch chisel is 63 grams.

If they want a "revival of medieval traditions" and to "preserve history" they might do some homework, not just fantasize. If they want to attract serious craftsmen, offer the chisels one at a time. And without handles. We don't want to pay extra for somebody's idea of a souped up handle.

Here is a chisel from 1596:
364940

[ken hatch]

Can you elaborate on why you would prefer white steel?

Lasse,

Sure....While not quite the same it is like the preference for O1 vs. A2. I do not normally work abrasive woods and #1 White Steel will take a sharper edge vs. Blue steel much like O1 vs. A2. Longer edge life means little, my preference is to work with very sharp tools and sharpen often instead of working with almost sharp for longer.

ken

[Patrick Chase]

These are too heavy for serious work. The 12mm chisel is 220 grams. My current 1/2 inch chisel is 63 grams.

I agree. If you look through the rest of your "woodworking" products you'll notice that they're of types more suited to carpentry (timber framing etc) than to fine work. I think these guys just don't understand the market they're trying to address with their bench chisels. A swing and a mind-bogglingly expensive miss.

[Pete Taran]

Not to mention they are ridiculously ugly. Looks like they have been buried in a northern peat bog for 500 years. Agree on the crazy swing and miss!

[Rick Malakoff]

These tools/products are for people with more money than common sense. One of the fellows John Neeman, who is now Northmen made some very expensive axes IIRC.
But what do I know I'm just a carpenter.
Rick

[Derek Cohen]

Very striking ...

http://www.northmen.com/upload/bench_chisels/438/bench-chisels-1%20copy.jpg

.. and designed to be struck.

Full marks for a beautiful presentation.

Hard to say more than that without a closer inspection and a review.

What are the alternative in a similar price range (around $200 per chisel)? Something Japanese?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Roger Nair]

Rick, one correction, John Neeman is a trading name that is anglicized from the name of Janis Nimanis, one of the smiths associated with John Neeman Tools. Janis left John Neeman Tools some years ago and formed a company Autine that advertises itself as the sole working enterprise of John Neeman, the man. It seems like the former John Neeman Tools wants to remove itself from the old conflict of former partners and forge ahead without carrying on with old disputes and confusion.

Among timber framers, there are satisfied users of tools from both shops. I would think that the bench chisels are more for status collectors than working woodworkers

[Rick Malakoff]

Thanks Rodger, I knew that there was some sort of story just never delved into the why fores. In the axe/knife/whatever collectors world there people who buy this kind of stuff just for the bragging rights. The cost of that set of chisels is more than I'll spend the whole year for tools.
I only brag when I come back from the swap meet some old tools.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks for bringing these to our attention Lasse.
They're more than I could ever afford, but I wish them well.
Fred

[lowell holmes]

I want chisels to work, not to admire. I don't understand the concept.

[Patrick Chase]

I want chisels to work, not to admire. I don't understand the concept.

It's not exactly a new thing. At least they've built at least one set of these, as evidenced by the picture. John Economaki at BCTW will happily charge you $4000+ for a plane that appears to have never been prototyped (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/planes/limited-edition-planes/se-dual-angle-smoother-1168.html) (or else he wouldn't be using ray-traced renders from CAD instead of, you know, pictures of the real plane). That's about as pure a collectors' item as you'll ever find.

[Stewie Simpson]

I want chisels to work, not to admire. I don't understand the concept.

Its a return to the values of traditional tool making Lowell. Handcrafted vs CNC. How difficult is that to comprehend.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/moving%20fillister%20plane%20build/_DSC0205_zpscmyajadx.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/moving%20fillister%20plane%20build/_DSC0205_zpscmyajadx.jpg.html)

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I delibrately didnt mentioned my own oppinion on them untill people had a chance to comment.
I think they are beautiful made. I love the look of the steel that is only shiny at the areas where its needed. Although Im unaware if palisander is a prober material for chisel handles at least they look good. When that is said im suspicious about the steel that is used. In another thread Stan from Tools from Japan is writing about a bespoke japanese toolmaker who alledgibly now is using Rikizai as steel for their chisels. Rikizai is apparently rolled and not forged which makes a difference in the quality of the steel. That is supposed to be a much cheaper alternative to old school forging.
The info on the Northmen chisels states that laminated japanese blue steel is used. That makes me think that they also used rikizai and I have not yet been able to unconfirm that suspicion because all of my attempts to get in contact with them has been ignored. If rikizai has been used I believe they have cut corners and then the pricetag is absolutely ridicilous and I think they are cheating!

[Stewie Simpson]

I delibrately didnt mentioned my own oppinion on them untill people had a chance to comment.
I think they are beautiful made. I love the look of the steel that is only shiny at the areas where its needed. Although Im unaware if palisander is a prober material for chisel handles at least they look good. When that is said im suspicious about the steel that is used. In another thread Stan from Tools from Japan is writing about a bespoke japanese toolmaker who alledgibly now is using Rikizai as steel for their chisels. Rikizai is apparently rolled and not forged which makes a difference in the quality of the steel. That is supposed to be a much cheaper alternative to old school forging.
The info on the Northmen chisels states that laminated japanese blue steel is used. That makes me think that they also used rikizai and I have not yet been able to unconfirm that suspicion because all of my attempts to get in contact with them has been ignored. If rikizai has been used I believe they have cut corners and then the pricetag is absolutely ridicilous and I think they are cheating!

http://northmen.com/en/creating-process/making-the-tool

[Frederick Skelly]

It's not exactly a new thing. At least they've built at least one set of these, as evidenced by the picture. John Economaki at BCTW will happily charge you $4000+ for a plane that appears to have never been prototyped (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/planes/limited-edition-planes/se-dual-angle-smoother-1168.html) (or else he wouldn't be using ray-traced renders from CAD instead of, you know, pictures of the real plane). That's about as pure a collectors' item as you'll ever find.

Collectors can also look forward to their soon to be released hand forged watches (http://northmen.com/en/products/northmen-wrist-watches). (I am not making this up.)

[Graham Haydon]

Hipster framing slicks, passed off as bench chisels :D. Joking aside it would be nice to see some genuine bench chisels, made to old patterns, using only traditional methods. They would be expensive, but an interesting addition to what's offered at the moment.

[Brian Holcombe]

Very striking ...

http://www.northmen.com/upload/bench_chisels/438/bench-chisels-1%20copy.jpg

.. and designed to be struck.

Full marks for a beautiful presentation.

Hard to say more than that without a closer inspection and a review.

What are the alternative in a similar price range (around $200 per chisel)? Something Japanese?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Konobu, Kunikei, Kiyohisa, Funahiro, and similar.

[Derek Cohen]

As you are aware, Brian, I do have a set of Kiyohisa slicks. They were a 6 year wait (now about 10 years, I believe). I have my doubts that Northmen are in the same class. I suspect that you will agree.


Collectors can also look forward to their soon to be released hand forged watches (http://northmen.com/en/products/northmen-wrist-watches). (I am not making this up.)

Fred, I wonder what Rolex will make of their badge? Do you suppose that Northmen will argue that they have one dot while Rolex have three (below the crown)?


http://northmen.com/en/creating-process/making-the-tool

Stewie, I very much doubt that the slick in that video has a laminated blade. That video was a sales pitch. It has little to do with reality.

Regards from Perth

Derek (not knocking Northmen - just commenting on comments made)

[Stewie Simpson]

This set of bench chisels is hand forged from a laminated Japanese Blue Steel.
http://northmen.com/en/products/woodworking-tools/bench-chisels/bench-chisels-2

[Stanley Covington]

If you google Northmen Guild you will find their website, they produce lots of stuff not related to woodworking also but im sure some creekers will find them interesting anyway.
However I would like some comments on their set of chisels. There is only limited info on them available on the website and I have i three different ways tried to get more info without reply. Anyway if someone like Stan would look at it and tell me what his first thougt is I would appreciate it. Comments from others are ofcourse welcome too :-)

http://northmen.com/en/products/woodworking-tools/bench-chisels

Lasse:

Laminating a layer of high carbon steel to a low-carbon body was the standard way of making chisels, including socket chisels, for a very long time prior to the availability of more affordable, and usually better quality, factory steel. But I can't tell from the webpages what the process of lamination is, or even if it really is laminated. But a laminated socket chisel is something I have tried to develop in the past, so I know what it takes.

Pre-laminated Rikizai? Can't tell, but that would explain a lot.

That he chose (really?) Hitachi Blue Paper steel is no doubt a marketing ploy. After all, there is no lack of fine tool steel up North. Indeed, the base iron Hitachi uses is Swedish. But getting a batch of Hitachi product to their forge far from Shimane Prefecture would not be easy, since Hitachi produces relatively little Blue Paper steel nowadays, and if you want to place a solo order, it will not be a small, tidy, inexpensive amount. Rikizai is easier to buy in small quantities.

If I am kind and accept the premise that he really did import Blue Steel strip stock from Japan, it would help explain the ridiculous price. But it was money wasted without significantly improving performance.

I have friends that own Neeman's axe products. They tell me their performance is unimpressive. But he is a good marketer (maybe he has an MBA from the University of Phoenix) and makes a great video. So I suspect he has analyzed the market, done some "rube" calculus, determined a price point, and then developed a product with the right features, and appearance, and used the right buzz words (laminated, blue steel, socket) to satisfy the uneducated the rube while hitting the price point. Perhaps I am being too harsh, but that is not a professional tool, more like Disneyland version.

The leather-wrapped handles will give the user terrible blisters. The leather will vibrate loose. The grooves for the leather weaken the handle needlessly. The box is pretty, but securing the blades inside little leather straps tacked to the wood? Sexy looking, like a warrior princes in a leather bikini in a Conan movie, but not practical.

I think he will sell lots of them.

Stan

[Stewie Simpson]

Perhaps I am being too harsh, but that is not a professional tool, more like Disneyland version.

Stanley; I would suggest your being extremely harsh within your description. Just my opinion.

regards Stewie;

[Derek Cohen]

http://northmen.com/en/products/wood...ench-chisels-2 (http://northmen.com/en/products/woodworking-tools/bench-chisels/bench-chisels-2)

Gad, what a bunch of hooey.

Sorry, not my cup of tea.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley; I would suggest your being extremely harsh within your description. Just my opinion.

regards Stewie;

That may be. I have been wrong before.

I am confident about the price, availability, and practical benefits of Blue Paper steel versus Swedish Steel. But I did suggest that using pre-laminated Japanese materials would mitigate the cost and procurement difficulties, and would require a lesser-degree of skill.

I am confident about the leather-wrapped handle. Have you ever used a socket framing chisel that has been wrapped to keep a split handle usable for a little longer? I used one to build a 2 span timber bridge for the US Forest Service back when I had a full head of hair. Try it for an hour of heavy cutting (not furniture making but timber framing) and your hands will confirm if I am exaggerating or not.

I am confident about the leather retention strips. Rust. Not a good idea.

I am confident about the marketing calculations employed, and the target rube. It's simply too obvious.

I may have been too harsh with the Disneyland crack. A Disney product would be made from pot metal. But on the other hand, it would be priced at $68.99 for the set.

Stan

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

A few hours ago I finally got a reply from them on messenger. He writes that they buy round stock Hitachi blue steel and laminate it to spring steel in own forge. So I guess I was wrong regarding rikizai wich of course is a good thing.

[Stanley Covington]

A few hours ago I finally got a reply from them on messenger. He writes that they buy round stock Hitachi blue steel and laminate it to spring steel in own forge. So I guess I was wrong regarding rikizai wich of course is a good thing.

Round stock? Wow. What a steaming pile of fly-blown .... nonsense.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

This is a copy of his reply

We buy only blue steel round stock from Japan Hitatchi Metals Ltd. We do the forging and lamination by ourselves. The core layer is Blue Steel and the top layer is Spring Steel.

We are also developing the Damascus version of these chisels. They will be forged and look the same style as this axe head:

http://northmen.com/en/products/axes/viking-s-axe-braveheart-damascus

Thank you for contacting us and feel free to ask if you have any other questions!

Sincerely,
Jacob

[Andrew Hughes]

I think they are cool looking and you guys are being chisel buzz killers. :p

[Doug McKay]

I remember conversations just like this from the early 1980's, a manufacturer called Bridge City Tools..... A tool that's only keeps it's worth if you never take it out of the box.

[Jim Koepke]

I think he will sell lots of them.

Do you think many will ever be used?

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

This is a copy of his reply

We buy only blue steel round stock from Japan Hitatchi Metals Ltd. We do the forging and lamination by ourselves. The core layer is Blue Steel and the top layer is Spring Steel.

We are also developing the Damascus version of these chisels. They will be forged and look the same style as this axe head:

http://northmen.com/en/products/axes/viking-s-axe-braveheart-damascus

Thank you for contacting us and feel free to ask if you have any other questions!

Sincerely,
Jacob

I never doubted you when you wrote that they had responded to you.

The "steaming pile" comment was about the idea of buying, shipping, importing, and transporting overland round stock, and then hammering it thin enough to make an effective laminate, and then laminating that to spring steel! Spring steel! LOL.

It can be done. It will be time-consuming and wasteful. Everyone else in the world buys steel to be laminated in strips, not round bar. And then they laminate it to mild steel or low-carbon steel, but never spring steel.

The finished product will gain little of the benefits that come with lamination. It will not even be traditional (European or Japanese).

[Pete Taran]

Stanley,

The reason is probably so when you wear through the lamination by only sharpening the back as some here espouse, you will still end up with a usable chisel. In the industry I work in, we call this mistake proofing!

;)

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley,

The reason is probably so when you wear through the lamination by only sharpening the back as some here espouse, you will still end up with a usable chisel. In the industry I work in, we call this mistake proofing!

;)

Genius! We have the answer! :D

[lowell holmes]

How difficult is it to relate to most of us cannot and would not spend $1200 for chisels. The chisels belongs in a museum, not a workshop.
My chisels get hit with mallets.

On the matter of mallets, I have two, one is like the Grizzly mallet and the other a large maple mallet I purchased at a Paul Sellers workshop 20 years ago.

[Stanley Covington]

Oh yea. I forget to call your attention to the way the handle is fitted to the socket. You will notice that there is no gap between the flat upper rim of the socket and the handle. This neat presentation will no doubt appeal to the uninformed, but the gap is traditionally provided in socket chisels for a reason. Alternately, especially in large socket chisels, the handle isn't stepped down, but just transitions smoothly into a truncated cone.

Anyone that has worn out a socket chisel's handle can tell you what will happen to a stepped handle after a while as the handle's cone wears with use and is gradually driven further into the socket. Very ugly. Once again, not a professional tool. I predict massive sales.

[sean contenti]

I predict massive sales.

+1 to this.

No comment on the quality of the product they make, I've never handled any of it.

But these guys are marketing masters, and they've made a ton of money selling axes and bush knives to people who've never been further than 100m from a paved road. I've been seeing their (undeniably beautifully shot) "making of" videos for years, and if I recall correctly, at one point they had a years long wait list to buy anything from them.

[Derek Cohen]

I never doubted you when you wrote that they had responded to you.

The "steaming pile" comment was about the idea of buying, shipping, importing, and transporting overland round stock, and then hammering it thin enough to make an effective laminate, and then laminating that to spring steel! Spring steel! LOL.

It can be done. It will be time-consuming and wasteful. Everyone else in the world buys steel to be laminated in strips, not round bar. And then they laminate it to mild steel or low-carbon steel, but never spring steel.

The finished product will gain little of the benefits that come with lamination. It will not even be traditional (European or Japanese).

The blue steel on spring steel is probably why I could not find the lamination line, even with the chrone dioxide compound buffing that is a special sharpening treatment ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Other/Northmen-blades_zpschcy33oo.jpg

I did love the bit about steel that "will hold a fine edge with no persistent burr".

Hooey.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

If a chisel is made by a blacksmith, how are side bevels added?

I would assume that they are ground. I do not think that they can be hammered in. Grinding on all the Japanese chisels I have are smooth with clean lines. These chisels look rough as guts. As Stanley noted, the sockets and handles are incorrectly joined. I assume that this is all a deliberate "look".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

If a chisel is made by a blacksmith, how are side bevels added?

I would assume that they are ground. I do not think that they can be hammered in. Grinding on all the Japanese chisels I have are smooth with clean lines. These chisels look rough as guts. As Stanley noted, the sockets and handles are incorrectly joined. I assume that this is all a deliberate "look".

Regards from Perth

Derek
Why exactly do you find them to the be incorrectly joined? They look to be well produced. What is the preferred joinery and why?

[Dave Beauchesne]

I won't weigh in on fit, finish or functionality - many, with much better credentials than I have commented.

One question I have: If using Palisander for the handles, which is most certainly a Dalgerbia of one species or another, how do they get around the CITES regulations without a mound of paperwork? Maybe the rationale for the big bucks

Dave B

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I won't weigh in on fit, finish or functionality - many, with much better credentials than I have commented.

One question I have: If using Palisander for the handles, which is most certainly a Dalgerbia of one species or another, how do they get around the CITES regulations without a mound of paperwork? Maybe the rationale for the big bucks

Dave B
Isn't it only Brassilian palisander which is on the Cites list?

[Patrick Chase]

I am confident about the leather-wrapped handle. Have you ever used a socket framing chisel that has been wrapped to keep a split handle usable for a little longer? I used one to build a 2 span timber bridge for the US Forest Service back when I had a full head of hair. Try it for an hour of heavy cutting (not furniture making but timber framing) and your hands will confirm if I am exaggerating or not.

To be fair they're marketing these as "bench chisels", but that leads directly back to another problem: As Graham said, they're "hipster framing slicks" masquerading as bench chisels. It actually doesn't matter, because they're unsuited to either application.

Addressing Stewie's comment about traditional methods: To make a traditional, time-tested tool you need both traditional methods and a proven, traditional design. At best these cover one of those two bases. The design is just weird, and I think that's what a lot of folks are reacting to. Warren for example is no fan of "innovative methods" and yet still objected to these on the basis of their design. He's right.

Another red flag here for me is the fact that they epoxy their handles on, and then advertise that as a feature! Nobody does that in a serious chisel. If the epoxy held up then it would simply prevent people from re-handling them "to taste". The good news is that the glue won't hold up to serious use, which makes it simply pointless (and easily recognized as such). If you do re-handle don't forget to remove the residue from the socket first, though.

I don't think "Disneyland" was too harsh in this instance.

[Patrick Chase]

Oh yea. I forget to call your attention to the way the handle is fitted to the socket. You will notice that there is no gap between the flat upper rim of the socket and the handle. This neat presentation will no doubt appeal to the uninformed, but the gap is traditionally provided in socket chisels for a reason. Alternately, especially in large socket chisels, the handle isn't stepped down, but just transitions smoothly into a truncated cone.

That's OK, they're glueing the handle into the socket. What could possibly go wrong?

[Jim Koepke]

Hmmm, so if one wanted to make some big bucks they could make some cartoon chisels and sell them to folks who do not plan on ever using them?

Me thinks my ethical nature has kept me from being a rich son of a gun.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Why exactly do you find them to the be incorrectly joined? They look to be well produced. What is the preferred joinery and why?

The fact that it *looks* seamless and therefore "well produced" is actually the problem.

Stanley explained it well: Wood is compressible. The part of the handle in the socket compresses. There needs to be a gap between the handle's flange (the wider part that won't fit into the socket) and the rim of the socket to allow for that compression. You can see this gap easily if you look at a picture of a Stanley 750 (old or new (https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-16-784-Sweetheart-Socket-Chisel/dp/B004SG70L4/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1501439931&sr=1-2&keywords=stanley+750)) or any other socket chisel.

EDIT: Two more examples illustrating proper gaps. L-N socket chisels (https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/bevel-edge-chisels/1-c-b-1-2-bevel-edge-socket-chisels?node=4099), and Veritas chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504) which are socket-over-tang.

[Patrick Chase]

If a chisel is made by a blacksmith, how are side bevels added?

I would assume that they are ground. I do not think that they can be hammered in. Grinding on all the Japanese chisels I have are smooth with clean lines. These chisels look rough as guts. As Stanley noted, the sockets and handles are incorrectly joined. I assume that this is all a deliberate "look".

There are a few ways you could get a finish like that, but I would guess that they were bead blasted after grinding or something like that.

[Jim Koepke]

There are a few ways you could get a finish like that, but I would guess that they were bead blasted after grinding or something like that.

This brings to mind a visit to a blacksmith friend of mine down in the Santa Cruz, California area, he was having his helper work on some hinges. They were actually regular zinc plated hinges he was putting in the fire to burn off the zinc and then beating them a few times to make them look hand forged. What a way to make a few bucks.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

This brings to mind a visit to a blacksmith friend of mine down in the Santa Cruz, California area, he was having his helper work on some hinges. They were actually regular zinc plated hinges he was putting in the fire to burn off the zinc and then beating them a few times to make them look hand forged. What a way to make a few bucks.

He was just using the "traditional methods" pioneered by P.T. Barnum.

[Stanley Covington]

If a chisel is made by a blacksmith, how are side bevels added?

I would assume that they are ground. I do not think that they can be hammered in. Grinding on all the Japanese chisels I have are smooth with clean lines. These chisels look rough as guts. As Stanley noted, the sockets and handles are incorrectly joined. I assume that this is all a deliberate "look".

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek:

The shape and finish would indeed be difficult to accomplish with just forge, anvil, hammer and grinder. But it's readily accomplished if some dies are used.

Chisel blacksmiths in Japan (can't speak to other countries) make their own hand-held dies, each like an ugly, heavy spoon with a long, skinny handle, hollowed out to match the cross section and shoulder detail of each width of chisel. The laminated, roughly shaped steel is heated and pounded into this die shaping the back, bevels, and shoulder. These surfaces are then ground, and sometimes filed, to create clean surfaces and crisp edges.

I assume Western chisel blacksmiths in past centuries used very similar techniques.

Of course, mass producers also use multiple shaping dies and trimming dies to shape their products made with rikizai.

I suspect the hammer and anvil work shown in his excellent promotional videos is for show. It likely that he is using multiple cutting, shaping, and trimming dies in a mass-production situation, similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBspuKqG9Sw

You will notice that very little scale shows up in this video. This is evidence that they are using high-alloy steel, without a lot of carbon. Scale is hard on dies.

This video shows scale in the most dramatic manner I have ever seen. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tEF2erBBVZ4

When iron containing impurities like carbon (carbon is an impurity with positive benefits if kept within limits) is heated and worked, these impurities, which are liquid at high temperatures, migrate out of the mass, cooling slightly to form "scale" on the surface of the mass. If the heat is too high for too long, or the hot metal is heated and re-heated too many times, the nature of the remaining carbon may change ("burning" and ruining the steel), or the amount of remaining carbon may be too low to produce useful steel. This "burning" risk is higher with plain high-carbon steels than it is with alloy steels containing moly, chrome, vanadium, and tungsten.

As I have written before, modern alloys have made mass-production of low to medium quality tools fast, easy, and inexpensive. QC is much much easier to maintain with low-skilled workers (often illiterate farmers in China). We have all benefited tremendously from these scientific and engineering advances. However, the quality of cutting edges such as knives and woodworking tools has not improved a bit. Just the opposite, IMO.

A careful blacksmith will scrub this surface scale off before using his shaping dies, but a sloppy craftsman, or one in a hurry (or artistic?), may allow excess amounts of scale and crap to remain on the surface of the hot laminated metal before working it in the shaping die, creating the rough finish seen in the photos. This rough surface does not affect cutting performance, but it does affect tolerances and is seen as a sign of careless and sloppy workmanship here in Japan.

On the other hand, you have seen Japanese plane blades with a similar finish on their jigane faces. This can be accomplished several ways, but the most common method is to just work the hot metal face-down on an anvil with scale between blade and anvil, embossing the blade. In the case of a plane, it does not affect tolerances or performance, and some people like this rough finish.

This is all OK and artsy fartsy until it begins to affect tolerances. I would not tolerate it in a chisel.

So we can see that our Norseman has cleverly modified all the traditional time-proven features of a high-quality tool so that they are no longer effective, while at the same time substituting materials and design details that read and look very impressive on a website viewed by amateurs, all in accordance with a carefully-worked out marketing plan, targeting a well-defined "Target Rube (TR)," at a price-point that balances maximum profits against the wallet-size of the TR, while at the same time stimulating the hormonal, herd instincts of the TRs eager to wait in line for months for the honor of buying his products.

He must have studied PT Barnum's life minute-by-minute. If he decides to quit the wonderful world of Viking metalworking, he has a bright future waiting for him designing attractions for the Disney Corp., or making props for Hollywood.

The man is a frikin genius!

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Stan.
I replied to them yesterday and asked why they use round stock and not flat stock. They replied today that Hitachi don't make flat stock as thick as they prefer. That's why they buy round stock.

[Patrick Chase]

Stan.
I replied to them yesterday and asked why they use round stock and not flat stock. They replied today that Hitachi don't make flat stock as thick as they prefer. That's why they buy round stock.

Which begs the question: Why do they think they need the hard layer of the lamination to be thicker than Hitachi's thickest flat stock?

The whole point of a laminated chisel is to AVOID having a thick, brittle hunk of ultra-hard steel. You only get the toughness benefit of lamination if you keep that bit relatively thin.

[facepalm]

[Mike Henderson]

The price is absurd. The LV PM-V11 chisels run about $70 each. These chisels would have to have some feature, such as staying sharp forever, no matter how they were used, to justify the price.

Or maybe a feature that you could just describe what you wanted done and the chisels would get up and do the work for you according to your description. Sort of a 18th century CNC.

Mike

[Dave Beauchesne]

Isn't it only Brassilian palisander which is on the Cites list?

Lasse: As of Jan. 1/17, ALL Rosewoods, three Bubinga species and others were added to CITES. That is what I take from what I have been able to read. - Dave B

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I don't want to be the guy who defends their prices or anything els for that matter but regarding the price I'm sure you can find other chisel makers in the world that is able to sell their products at a similar price. I think that one of the main reasons for the high price is due to the really high wages that is paid in the Scandinavian countries, largely due to the high taxes.

[Mel Fulks]

Easy to be critical ...but who among us will turn down a set at a yard sale for $3.00 ? Unused in original box. I'm patient enough to wait couple years for a big discount !

[Brian Holcombe]

The cost doesn't offend me, there are plenty of makers out there asking similar prices of their work. Obviously I don't expect anything handmade to be similarly priced to anything machine made, it doesn't make sense that it would unless you expect the makers are working at minimum wage (they aren't!).

These certainly are not for me, but there are a few Japanese makers who sell at similar, or higher prices and of course they also usually have a 6mo-multi year wait for their work so they have a number of orders to go along with those prices.

I've met quite a number of craftsmen in the field, they often either give preference to antique/vintage tools that they restore, often of very high quality, or newly handmade tools that are high quality.

[Stanley Covington]

I don't want to be the guy who defends their prices or anything els for that matter but regarding the price I'm sure you can find other chisel makers in the world that is able to sell their products at a similar price. I think that one of the main reasons for the high price is due to the really high wages that is paid in the Scandinavian countries, largely due to the high taxes.

Thanks for the insight. Glad to know the chisels are helping to support the governments of Scandanavia.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know what goes into making a high-quality socket chisel, and how to maintain and use them.

Regardless of the country of origin, at the price point listed, they should be wonderfully made, high-performance, beautiful tools. But instead of making a dream chisel, the manufacturer has carefully chosen to replace proven high-quality construction with inferior construction just because it sounds better. He has chosen to replace time-proven design details with user-unfriendly movie-prop gizmos. Instead of putting in the effort to produce an attractively finished product, the metal looks like it was made by an amateur and tossed into a tank of cat urine for a year to corrode (cat urine does amazing things to steel, BTW).

In my opinion, their appearance does not justify the price. I strongly suspect the performance will be lacking, compared to conventional design and construction. And I find it difficult to imagine that the quality will be in line with the price.

But I have said from my first post that I believe this product will sell amazingly well because there are plenty of people around the world that buy things based solely on appearance and perceived value but without really understanding. These are the grown men that collect lunchboxes, Starwars goods, and stand in line to buy video games. They have a different perception of value than a simple ex-carpenter like me. I lack their imagination. More power to them.

To those who like these chisels, have the disposable income, and don't need to actually use them to feed their wife and babies, I say order 20 sets right now. But I would hope that this forum is filled with people that take tools and woodworking more seriously. Alas, I'm probably wrong.

Stan

[Warren Mickley]

365051365025

Here is an 18th century style chisel made by Peter Ross, who used to work at Williamsburg. I have seen a blacksmith at Williamsburg make a chisel like this in maybe under 30 minutes. The steel and the bolster are forge welded on.

According to the Seaton chest inventory a journeyman woodworker could buy about nine chisels for a day's wages. And the merchant who sold the chisels to Seaton, Christopher Gabriel, became rich from the trade, so there was plenty of profit. I don't buy the notion that the cost of Northmen chisels is attributable to high labor costs.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Lasse: As of Jan. 1/17, ALL Rosewoods, three Bubinga species and others were added to CITES. That is what I take from what I have been able to read. - Dave B
Thats new to me. Thanks for the info

[Kees Heiden]

But I would hope that this forum is filled with people that take tools and woodworking more seriously. Alas, I'm probably wrong.

Stan

Why do you think so? What did we do to earn such a low opinion?

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Jesus I regret that I posted this thread!

[Hasin Haroon]

Are there really droves of uninformed woodworkers who are willing to buy a $1200 set of chisels at the drop of a hat based on a marketing description? Somehow I doubt that...or I've been hanging out in less affluent circles!

[Stewie Simpson]

I was planning on eventually getting one LN plane. I'm well stocked for Veritas BU/BD & Custom planes and don't expect the LN would give me anything these planes don't but I wanted one just for the heck of it. I wanted a 4 1/2, but the bronze aesthetic was pushing me towards the 4, so I was hoping they'd offer a bronze 4 1/2. At that price I no longer want a bronze 4 1/2, lol.

Hasin; there are plenty of forum members out there who don't mind spending big money on premium brand tools.

[Hasin Haroon]

Guilty as charged Stewie. In my defence the Lie Nielsen bench planes are proven to perform well, and are fairly priced for what they offer...unlike these chisels.

[Rob Luter]

Some gorgeous stuff. I especially like the framing slicks and the axes. Well out of my price range however.

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

But I have said from my first post that I believe this product will sell amazingly well because there are plenty of people around the world that buy things based solely on appearance and perceived value but without really understanding. These are the grown men that collect lunchboxes, Starwars goods, and stand in line to buy video games. They have a different perception of value than a simple ex-carpenter like me. I lack their imagination. More power to them.


Buying a hundred chisels for $2 a pop is the same as buying one for $200 when you don't need, maintain, or use them to build anything. It's stupid. But there's a market for both. Haven't yet figured out why the first group gets applause and envy around here, while the second group gets turned into a punching bag. And if you thought a forum was the place to find serious woodworkers... :D

[Stewie Simpson]

Jesus I regret that I posted this thread!

I agree with you Lasse. It was a terrible mistake to have started this thread. This forum has done a thorough job of undermining Northmens reputation. Had these been expensive Japanese Chisels, the discussion would have been totally different.

[Roger Nair]

Lasse, you posed a fair question and you should not feel bad on account of others behavior. I do not recall anyone answering with direct experience of having the tools in hand and put to work, which is a more true way to evaluate tools. For those interested in small shop forged socket bench chisels of a comparable size and about 60% less cost, I would be confident in suggesting Barrtools for either a chisel set or single item purchase. I have used Barr framing chisels since 1990. Barr Quarton runs a production shop, that specializes in tools for working timber framers, log builders, chairmakers and woodworkers.

[John Sanford]

I want chisels to work, not to admire. I don't understand the concept.

it's not a hard concept to understand, certainly not if you woodwork for profit. Some, likely many, of your customers want X to keep books off the floor. You could simply slap something, well engineered mind you, together out of particle board/mdf and paint it. Such a solution will WORK, mind you.

But your customer wants more than simply something that "works." They want something that looks good, that is admirable. They want a craftsman's touch. The chisel is simply a different medium than that which is made WITH the chisel.

[Warren Mickley]

Some years ago I attended a hand tool fair where a fellow carver was demonstrating. He does 18th century high style work. There was also a vendor there who had just unveiled a new line of carving tools. Toward the end of the day the vendor came over to the carver and my ears pricked up to hear the conversation:

Vendor: Did you see our new carving tools? What did you think of them?
Carver: They are awfully heavy.
V: They are really nice aren't they?
C: They would require a lot of work.
V: Aren't they really great tools?
C: They are unusable.

A reputable dealer and a reputable manufacturer got together to develop a fine line of tools. They probably thought it an improvement to make them 70% heavier than the tools we have used for 250 years or so. The carver tried to be diplomatic, but the vendor was not hearing what he was saying. This happens all the time. I talked to three Lee Valley people when they were designing chisels. It was as if they had never talked to anyone who actually uses chisels for a living.

The Northmen can make any kind of chisel they want. If they want to claim traditional craftsmanship, they should look into history.

[Pat Barry]

I agree with you Lasse. It was a terrible mistake to have started this thread. This forum has done a thorough job of undermining Northmens reputation. Had these been expensive Japanese Chisels, the discussion would have been totally different.
I tend to agree with this statement. All the commentary here has been based purely on preconceived notions, what can be gleaned from a webpage or two, information from other sources about previous tools made by this manufacturer, and no hands on testing or usage. Much of the commentary has been needlessly flame ridden.

[Roger Nair]

Warren, I will respectfully disagree. The dialogue of the vendor and the carver is surely true from the carvers point of view but the carver will not speak for all the various trades. Some of us need chisels to make holes quickly in heavy timber, carving tools for those tasks need to stay in the chest. Northmen appear to be selling mystique of the sub-artic life not really how I have made my living. I made my living for over 25 years timber framing in oak and before that 20 years as a diversified carpenter, your light articulate carving chisels would for me be useless. The particular trade has it own specialized demands, your fine tradition and tools would be a curse on my working life, reality not finger pointing irony in debate.

To me there is no such thing as a perfect chisel, only chisels optimized toward a particular use.

I would not buy the Northmen bench chisel set, simply because it does not address a clear need.

[Warren Mickley]

Roger, I may have mislead you there. I certainly have done heavy timber framing. I only brought up the carving tools to illustrate how out of touch a well meaning manufacturer can be with a craftsman. And that it is a general problem of manufacturers being unaware of traditional tool specifications. My guess is that you have made handles for socket chisels. Usually we would not have a shoulder on the handle that rides up right on the rim of the socket; usually we would not epoxy the handle in the socket. Why don't these manufacturers know this?

[Daniel O'Connell]

Buying a hundred chisels for $2 a pop is the same as buying one for $200 when you don't need, maintain, or use them to build anything. It's stupid. But there's a market for both. Haven't yet figured out why the first group gets applause and envy around here, while the second group gets turned into a punching bag. And if you thought a forum was the place to find serious woodworkers... :D

I don't know if I would call it stupid. I buy chisels out of a combination of curiosity, need, and simple availability. And yes I have way, way more than I will ever need. I like them, I like rehabbing and trying out new chisels, etc. If money was no object I'd buy a set of these...but 1200 is an impracticality for me right now.

[Patrick Chase]

Jesus I regret that I posted this thread!

Lasse, you specifically asked Stan for his impressions, and welcomed comments from others. Stan and others told you what they thought in detail. It apparently wasn't what you wanted or expected to hear, but that's life. What's to regret?

Perhaps you should have said "Hey Stan and others, I really like these chisels so only reply if you're going to make me feel good about my existing preference".

[Daniel O'Connell]

Are there really droves of uninformed woodworkers who are willing to buy a $1200 set of chisels at the drop of a hat based on a marketing description? Somehow I doubt that...or I've been hanging out in less affluent circles!

Droves? I doubt it.

That said, one of my buddies who is a tool collector has something like a 10k/year budget for tool acquisition. A set of these chisels, if he were to want them, would not be a major problem. I imagine quite a few people could be in the same head space. 10,000 sales is probably a major profit for the maker, of all the woodworkers in the world...yeah, I could imagine 10000 of them not minding spending $1200 on a set of chisels they are intrigued with.

[Roger Nair]

Warren, I have made handles with froe and drawknife and have never shouldered the handle at the ring or socket. I also like the feature of giving the socket a sharp rap and removing the handle for compact storage. I also prefer framing chisels that have a belly that gives the carpenter leverage to steer out off the cut. Also the belly applies a counter force to the single bevel tip that tends to embed in the cut while mortising. Also traditional framing chisels tend to taper in width 3 or 4 hundredths to lessen jamming in deep mortises. All those details are lost in modern framing chisels. I learned these things by using old chisels, I never read or heard it. The details are lost because who and how many, in the case of timber framing, is actually spending the necessary time hand mortising. Commonplace knowledge is lost to the point that even if a manufacturer knows better, who and how many in the customer side of the equation is demanding the subtle detailing that make a difference? All a manufacturer has to do is measure and reason through the design, then cost out the refinements and then say to himself will the extra cost retard sells? Northmen looks like a seller of mystique, sizzle not steak. Actual tool review would be helpful.

[Dave Anderson NH]

OK folks we have beat this topic to death. Constructive criticism and commentary is within our bounds, but demeaning, sarcastic, and insulting comments are crudities whether they are tongue in cheek or not. I will leave this thread in place unedited because there is too much to edit and it proves the old adage, " no one is useless, they can at least set a bad example."

I would ask that many of you who have posted in this thread go back and reread what you have posted. Please reflect on whether or not you behaved in a appropriate and gentlemanly manner.