Which Japanese Bench Chisel on 'Tools From Japan'?

[Hasin Haroon]

Hi Guys,

I've been hearing good things about Japanese chisels from friends or other woodworkers that use them. Japanese tools seem to be hard to find information on (at least that I can understand), as they seem to be referred to by their Japanese names. Because of this I've decided to limit any purchases to the Tools from Japan website, but I'm still overwhelmed by choice for bench chisels.

I'm looking a for a high quality set of bench chisels, used for the regular fare - dovetails, joinery, a bit of paring and cleaning up for tenons and mortises. Looking for suggestions for a good set at a decent price (I know the good japanese chisels run a huge range of prices, so nothing at the higher end).

Thanks for your suggestions!

[Phillip Mitchell]

I really like the Koyamaichi bench chisels. I find them to be excellent performers and are relatively affordable, as far as Japanese chisels go. I chose the shiragashi (white oak) handles. I keep them sharp with a series of sigma power select stones and find the initial edge and edge retention to be outstanding.

It did take about 9 weeks from when I placed the order until the chisels arrived. Just FYI.

Just my opinion, but I don't think buying a pre-determined "set" is usually cost effective. I rarely find the exact sizes that I feel like I use regularly. I would much rather spend the same amount or likely less and pick each size deliberately based on what size chisels I actually need. Then when you see that there is a gap, buy that size you need. If you find you want a dedicated paring chisel (or 4...) then buy them individually based on needed size. If you've got money to burn, buy all means...If you're trying to be cost effective, you may want to be a bit more selective.

I've also heard great things about Ouchi chisels, but have no direct experience. Online reading seems to indicate that they may be a popular choice for carpentry / woodworking professionals in Japan, but don't quote me on that.

I'm sure Brian, Stan, and others more experienced than I will come along and help you in the right direction. You might take a look at Toshio Odate's book "Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit, and Use." It provides a fine reference point to start a journey towards understanding Japanese tools.

What size chisels are you wanting and what is your budget? That will help us inform your decision.

[Prashun Patel]

Plenty of experienced recommendations to follow. But you might pm Brian Holcombe and Stan Covington. They helped me when I was considering them.

[andy bessette]

I have been extremely pleased with The Japan Woodworker.
https://www.japanwoodworker.com/categories/hand-tools

[Matthew Hills]

I'm pretty happy with the koyamaichi I got from tools from Japan. I got 3mm, 6mm, (9 or 12mm) and something really wide.
I wouldn't recommend the witch hazel handle (got it out of curiosity; appearance was a bit muddy. Pretty annoying to set the hoops). Tools from Japan was good to order from when I got them. I believe this is run as a secondary business, so I'd send an email to the owner to confirm times and shipping arrangements.

I also got my sharpening stones and flattening plate from here. Advice for these purchases was good.

Do be aware that standard Japanese chisels have hoops. These are good for chopping (exception: I wouldn't chop with the 3mm chisel -- hand pressure is more than enough with a blade that narrow). Less comfy for a push grip.

Matt

[Stanley Covington]

Tools for Working Wood buys product from Miki. I buy mostly from Niigata, meaning Yoita, Sanjo, etc.

There are several factors to consider when buying a Japanese chisel. The first is appearance. If you want something pretty, be prepared to spend a lot of money. The other side of the coin is that, with the passing of Yamazaki san (Ichihiro), there are few truly beautiful chisels made nowadays that perform adequately despite the abundance of retailers and wholsealers that will tell you their beautiful chisels perform perfectly. Real craftsmen that use their tools for a living are able to tell the difference. Appearances are deceptive.

The second factor is performance. The chisel should be hand-forged from top-quality specialty tool steel. There are no mysteries involved in making a high-quality, high-performance chisel. It is not an expensive process at all, but it is more time-consuming and requires more handwork than mass-produced, consumer-grade tools. All it requires is self-respect, knowledge, experience, a minimum amount of equipment (you would be surprised how little equipment is required) and systematic, undeviating attention to QC. With the old blacksmiths passing away, there is now a glut of used equipment available. But the other four factors are becoming more rarer everyday, and have never existed among high-volume manufacturers. Wholesalers are, with few exceptions, totally devoid of these character traits. There are a few ways to confirm performance. The first is to buy and try everything. The second is to take the advice of people that actually use, instead of just admire, their chisels. The former is time consuming and expensive and frustrating. The latter is hit-and-miss, depending on your circle of acquaintances. Such chisels are not very expensive, and often do not look impressive. Caveat Emptor, baby.

Dennis S and I traveled to Niigata prefecture a couple of weeks ago and met with some of my blacksmiths. I have met with them many times, but I learn something new each visit. This time, I heard some disturbing news about a famous volume chisel factory in Sanjo whose products many creekers own. I will not divulge names. It shocked me because, while it is nearly SOP for Miki products, I was not aware a reputable company in Niigata, with a reputation for making HQ products, had deteriorated that far.

The news was that this company is now using "rikizai” (pre-laminated jigane/hagane steel) to manufacture their high-end chisels instead of the hand-forged techniques for which Niigata is justifiably famous. The problem with this is that, while it makes the process quicker and cheaper, the quality of the final cutting edge is sub-par. This is fine for chisels to be sold a low price at home centers to total amateurs. But not for chisels for professional use and sold at high prices. Very sad news.

Whenever possible, I advise meeting the blacksmith and touring his smithy.

Caveat Emptor, baby.

[Patrick Chase]

The news was that this company is now using "rikizai” (pre-laminated jigane/hagane steel) to manufacture their high-end chisels instead of the hand-forged techniques for which Niigata is justifiably famous. The problem with this is that, while it makes the process quicker and cheaper, the quality of the final cutting edge is sub-par. This is fine for chisels to be sold a low price at home centers to total amateurs. But not for chisels for professional use and sold at high prices. Very sad news.

What exactly are the technical drawbacks (in specific, quantifiable terms) to using pre-laminated blade stock?

I can easily understand why blacksmiths who use traditional methods might speak ill of such a process. It's an affront to their way of life after all. I have a harder time understanding how or why it would negatively impact the performance of the resulting tool.

[Stanley Covington]

What exactly are the technical drawbacks (in specific, quantifiable terms) to using pre-laminated blade stock?

I can easily understand why blacksmiths who use traditional methods might speak ill of such a process. It's an affront to their way of life after all. I have a harder time understanding how or why it would negatively impact the performance of the resulting tool.

Patrick:

You bring up an excellent point.

Instead of being forged over 2 or 3 heats, Rikizai is laminated by a steel company like Hitachi, using rollers and in a single heat. It is not forged.

Rikizai was originally developed for making inexpensive kitchen knives, and it makes a decent product. Rikizai can be ordered using White paper Steel, Blue Paper Steel, or plain-jane SK steel. Most people can't tell the difference between rolled and forged steel, and so it is fine for consumer grade stuff.

The process of hand-forging breaks up and distributes carbides more evenly and finely throughout the steel matrix. This results in a more durable cutting edge. Rikizai is not hand forged through multiple heats.

Those that can't detect the difference will disagree, but it a is real and valuable difference nonetheless. It is a major reason why professionals have always prefered chisels made by experienced blacksmiths instead of home-center blue-light specials.

The recent practice of using rikizai to make plane blades and chisel blades, and then to sell them as high-quality, handmade, expensive, works-of-art, is deceptive, and breath-takingly offensive. One expects it from the likes of the Tsunesaburo factory, but it is discouraging when the younger-sons of famous smiths soil their heritage this way.

But back to the point at hand. If you can't tell the difference between a mass-produced, stamped-and-ground, home center-grade chisel made from rikizai, then, bless your little pink heart, I encourage you to buy the inexpensive home-center-grade product at the home-center price. But it would be foolish to buy a home-center chisel fabricated from rikizai at a hand-forged price just because you can't tell the difference.

The inheritors of successful blacksmithing operations, some of which have existed for generations (one of my blacksmiths is third generation, and his forge has been in operation for over 130 years) are not just surviving but indeed thriving by simplifying production methods and using cheaper substitute materials. The current generation does not want to work in a hot, dirty smithy or factory. They want to wear a suit and work at a computer all day. The days of the hand-forged high-quality chisel are quickly coming to an end in Japan, just as they ended in the US and Europe a long time ago. Rikizai has accelerated this process.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm unfortunately very little help in this regard, as my preference for Japanese tools has moved toward the extreme end of the scale. I generally prefer makers who specialize in either white 1 steel or K120 (old stock) and near completely hand make the tools.

Stan's maker is very very good, he makes a cutting edge that is exceptional, more-so than some famous makers whose cutting edge's you'd tend to expect a great deal from.

Kikuhiromaru is one of my preferences that are not so extreme in terms of pricing but very high quality performers. They're not exceptionally well file fitted or anything like that, but a good workhorse of a tool.

On the far end of the scale I prefer Konobu and Kunikei, both of whom are making in a majority by hand. There are some important indicators of that;
The steel is exceptionally hard and yet does not chip in regular use.
The blades are file finished and retain the forge black
The ura is scraped with a sen
The file work is done neatly, with careful facets having been developed and the transition from neck to ferrule is done accurately. This is something that is not going to affect the performance, but does affect my appreciation of the tool and top makers do not ignore this.
The handle stock is high quality and the hoop is as well. I've had good hoops that are without a burr on their inside face, they typically only arrive with the very expensive chisels.

These are separated into pairs. The first two Konobu, the second two Konobu, the third Konobu, the fourth Kikuhiromaru, the fifth Tasai and the final are Stan's maker.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_7230-e1500984694296.jpg

Konobu leaves the forge black on the blade, sometimes the ura is scraped and sometimes it is also left black (by request). The ura is very refined, the file work equally well refined and the transition between neck/ferrule/handle is accurate and well done.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_7231.jpg

This now shows Konobu against kikuhiromaru, which is more of a workhorse. The iron on a Kikuhiromaru is done by machine method to my understanding, it is done more quickly but still quite good. The ferrules are close but not perfectly accurate. The handles are my work, so don't blame them for that, haha. The ura's are ground but very accurate.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_7232.jpg

This shows Kikuhiromaru, Tasai, and Stan's smith. Tasai are hand filed, but I believe the ura's are ground. Stan's smith on the end, very high quality steel/forging work which is exceptionally hard and yet tough, his work is not filed by hand but he charges a quite reasonable price.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_7233.jpg

[Hasin Haroon]

Thank you everyone for your detailed responses and suggestions.

My budget would be upto $100 CDN per chisel (so around $80 USD), as I will be saving up a bit for these anyways. I plan on purchasing a 6 mm, 9 mm and 12 mm for now. So it seems the three makers I can narrow them down to are koyamaichi, Kikuhiromaru, or Stan's Maker (which I believe hasn't been specified). I believe from what I understand that I should be going for the Oire-Nomi, as they seem to be closest to the Bevel edged bench chisel. I know I can purchase koyamaichi on Tools From Japan, but where can I purchase the other two makers chisels? Andy, I don't see any of the makers mentioned on Japanwoodworker.

I'm located in Canada, so it would be shipped internationally, although I am hopefully going to be in Japan for a couple weeks in late september. Should I wait and purchase them from Japan? I will be going on a trip with friends, so if there is a woodworkers tool store in japan in major cities, that would work, but I can't go somewhere to visit a forge. I remember reading somewhere that there isn't really a fine tools store like Woodcraft or Lee Valley in Japan, but that's hearsay.

Stan and Brian, thank you for your detailed posts, and for helping me begin to understand what to look out for in Japanese chisels.

[Derek Cohen]

Hasim, you can purchase Koyamaichi from Lee Valley: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=54872&cat=1,41504

These are umeki-nomi, which are dovetail-shaped bench chisels.

I do recommend Koyamaichi. I have probably used them longer than anyone here, for perhaps 15 or more years. I purchased a few made in the mid 80s, having read a recommendation by David Charlesworth. I added to these several years ago, when Stu (Tools from Japan) became an agent. Mr Koyama made up a few small ones for me with minimal lands to use in dovetailing. The quality over 30 years is similar.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hasin Haroon]

Thanks Derek - if you're pleased with them after so long they must be excellent. Looking at the prices it seems cheaper to ship from Tools from Japan for these chisels - the Shinogi Oire-Nomi look very similar to the Umeki-nomi, unless I'm missing something.

[Patrick Chase]

Instead of being forged over 2 or 3 heats, Rikizai is laminated by a steel company like Hitachi, using rollers and in a single heat. It is not forged.

Rikizai was originally developed for making inexpensive kitchen knives, and it makes a decent product. Rikizai can be ordered using White paper Steel, Blue Paper Steel, or plain-jane SK steel. Most people can't tell the difference between rolled and forged steel, and so it is fine for consumer grade stuff.

Thanks, that explanation makes sense. I agree that for conventionally-processed steels there is a real difference in properties between rolled and forged.

It will be interesting to see is what happens as sintered (PM) steels see wider adoption. Sintering beats both forging and rolling in basically every measurable property, so at that point a "pre-laminated" assembly would become a viable solution at the high end. I wonder if some of the Japanese makers have seen the writing on the wall in that regard?

For that matter, what would prevent Hitichi from making a forged Rizi-kai to cater to higher-end clients?

[Brian Holcombe]

A few of the commonly used steels are refined by way of Vacuum Arc Remelting. I have one blade that is VAR white 1, it's pretty awesome.

[Patrick Chase]

A few of the commonly used steels are refined by way of Vacuum Arc Remelting. I have one blade that is VAR white 1, it's pretty awesome.

I'm less familiar with VAR than with sintering (haven't read survey papers to get up to speed on the literature etc), but that's another example of a modern process that should be competitive with forging. Our of curiosity who's selling chisels made that way?

[Brian Holcombe]

I haven't seen anyone selling that steel in a chisel, only in plane blades. They are still using forge welding to laminate to soft iron. Most of the exotic steels tend to show up in planes it would seem.

The maker I have is Shoichiro Tanaka.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/img_6748.jpg

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks, that explanation makes sense. I agree that for conventionally-processed steels there is a real difference in properties between rolled and forged.

It will be interesting to see is what happens as sintered (PM) steels see wider adoption. Sintering beats both forging and rolling in basically every measurable property, so at that point a "pre-laminated" assembly would become a viable solution at the high end. I wonder if some of the Japanese makers have seen the writing on the wall in that regard?

For that matter, what would prevent Hitichi from making a forged Rizi-kai to cater to higher-end clients?

I have never heard of, seen, or used a sintered metal plane or chisel.

I have a sintered metal kitchen knife of laminated sandwich construction, and its a real honey, so I have no problems with the principle. Konobu recommended the material to me (ZDP-189 sandwiched between ATS-34, made by Hitachi metals for Henkels). It gets extremely sharp, and when used for typical food prep, holds an edge for a very long time. But it is brittle, chips easily, and despite the very high chromium content, rusts easily. The ATS-34 layers add necessary toughness and corrosion protection, otherwise my wife would have destroyed it long ago.

I also have a lot of high-end wrenches and sockets made from sintered metal made by Kyoto Tools. Great tools, very tough and well made, and almost no cutting or machining.

I am a fan of sintered metals, but have not seen comparisons in the martensite structures of sintered metal to forged and rolled steels. If you can tell me where I can find that information, I would be grateful.

Production QC of small shapes like gears and valves using sintered metals is significantly easier, and since machining costs are greatly reduced compared to traditional methods, there are real cost savings. indeed, I am told that there are some alloys that are only possible using sintering techniques.

I have a friend that works for a manufacturer of sintered metal parts in Kyoto, and have toured his plant. Fascinating stuff. But his outfit does not forge, roll or laminate, only grind and mix the metal powders, then mold them to shape and bake. Hotter than hell.

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

I have never heard of, seen, or used a sintered metal plane or chisel.

I have a sintered metal kitchen knife of laminated sandwich construction, and its a real honey, so I have no problems with the principle. Konobu recommended the material to me (ZDP-189 sandwiched between ATS-34, made by Hitachi metals for Henkels). It gets extremely sharp, and when used for typical food prep, holds an edge for a very long time. But it is brittle, chips easily, and despite the very high chromium content, rusts easily. The ATS-34 layers add necessary toughness and corrosion protection, otherwise my wife would have destroyed it long ago.

I also have a lot of high-end wrenches and sockets made from sintered metal made by Kyoto Tools. Great tools, very tough and well made, and almost no cutting or machining.

I am a fan of sintered metals, but have not seen comparisons in the martensite structures of sintered metal to forged and rolled steels. If you can tell me where I can find that information, I would be grateful.

The first thing to do is to be more specific. "Sintering" or "PM" refers to anything that's formed by heating and compacting a powdered base material, and there are several ways to do that. I believe that most tools (and certainly anything made with Crucible-branded alloys like CPM-3V or CPM-10V) are formed using the High Isostatic Pressure (HIP) process. This document (https://www.epma.com/246-introduction-to-hot-isostatic-pressing-brochure/file) seems to give a reasonable overview of the process. EPMA doesn't actually verify the email they make you submit to get the doc, so be creative :-).

The doc above has a tiny bit on microstructure. You can find a lot more with appropriate searches, for example "HIP hardening martensite (https://www.google.com/search?q=HIP+hardening+martensite)" turns up some interesting stuff.

EDIT: Note that the scales aren't always the same between the "forged" and "HIP" microstructure SEM shots in that doc.

[Frank Drew]

Just my opinion, but I don't think buying a pre-determined "set" is usually cost effective. Phillip, I agree, in general, and that goes for lots of things, like pots and pans and kitchen knives. Get a couple of sizes you know you'll use and build your own set from there, as needed.


I've also heard great things about Ouchi chisels, but have no direct experience. Online reading seems to indicate that they may be a popular choice for carpentry / woodworking professionals in Japan, but don't quote me on that.

Having said that, I did buy a very slightly used set of 10 Ouchi bench chisels (sometimes spelled Oichi and other variations) because the price was right; this was back in 1981 but IIRC the set was somewhere between $100 and $200. I've put a ton of work on mine and I think they're very good tools and would recommend the maker wholeheartedly unless someone knows that the quality has declined over the years. And you're right, they were (are?) a popular choice with professional Japanese carpenters. I've used a lot of different Western chisels but these are the only Japanese ones I have any experience with.