Best practice method to do production of 1x6 Spline Miter joints ? ?

[Marc Jeske]

Please read the below link, then return here to reply.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?256412-Biscuit-joiner-slot-Is-there-Baltic-Birch-to-cut-spline-matl-to-fit

Thank you very much, Marc

[Jamie Buxton]

If you're inclined to use a biscuit joiner, go ahead. Don't attempt to slide it sideways, or to make your own biscuits. Instead, use two biscuits per joint, side by side. Just plunge the joiner like normal. Screw the joiner down to the bench; most joiners have holes to let you do this.
And if the customer will let you use plywood for the panel, glue it in as you assemble the frame. The panel will act as a great big gusset holding the corner joints together.

[Marc Jeske]

Jamie - The frames are open, not like a panel door.

Just a perimeter 1x6 laid flat open field frame, Marc

[Mark Wooden]

If you want to use plate joiner and joining plates (bisquits)- fastest and recommended- you should get Lamello "Max" joining plates, they measure over 3" long and 1-3/8" wide.

You can get router adapters from a good saw supply company that will allow you to run a 5" plate jointer blade in a 1/2" collet variable speed router (you'll need to slow the rpm's down) in a table and jig it up that way. Again, this is the easiest way I know.
You can also use a jig on a table saw and cut your own splines, but that is a great deal more work.

How do you plan to clamp the joints?

[Marc Jeske]

Mark - I want to address your comments and give more info, but will be this Eve, gotta run now. Thank you, Marc

[Jacques Gagnon]

Marc:

Do you have access to a Domino (maybe a friend has one you could borrow)? If so, this could solve your problem. I have made many mitered frames similar to what you are planning to do using the domino. The domino will register the surfaces and lock the corner. Gluing can either be done with any equipment you have on hand (web; parallel jaw; wedge; glued clamping ears). I have successfully used web and corner clamp.

[Cary Falk]

If you are asking for possibly a better method, I would choose a tenoning jig on the table saw. It would be cheaper also

[Jim Morgan]

Marc:

Do you have access to a Domino (maybe a friend has one you could borrow)? If so, this could solve your problem. I have made many mitered frames similar to what you are planning to do using the domino. The domino will register the surfaces and lock the corner. Gluing can either be done with any equipment you have on hand (web; parallel jaw; wedge; glued clamping ears). I have successfully used web and corner clamp.

OP is making boxes, not picture frames. Domino is not the right tool for him.

[Jim Andrew]

What is wrong with biscuits? Just put one on each end of your joint, and use the biggest you can. I have used biscuits on projects, and have yet to have one fail. Do a test, just glue up a joint and then let it dry overnight, and then see what it takes to break the joint.

[Jim Morgan]

If you are asking for possibly a better method, I would choose a tenoning jig on the table saw. It would be cheaper also

Again, OP is making boxes, not picture frames. Tenoning jig is not the right tool for him. Think spline jig.

[glenn bradley]

OP is making boxes, not picture frames. Domino is not the right tool for him.

But he says "Just a perimeter 1x6 laid flat open field frame, Marc"

Maybe we need a diagram. Even a phone pic of a hand drawn image would help. The answers are getting all over the map because we all have a different idea of what he is doing.

Its one of these:

364359

[John Lanciani]

OP is making boxes, not picture frames. Domino is not the right tool for him.

Actually, he is making frames; "My OP is for a project calling for quantity run of 50 4 sided frames - visualize 1x6 laid flat as in a wide border picture frame, approx 1' wide x 4' high overall size completed."

A domino will work either way by the way.

[John Connelly]

Re-reading his initial post it sounds like these are flat frames for a coffee table top. If that is the case and he is making 50 of them, I would not use biscuits. Biscuits only register in one plane and would make alignment during glue up difficult for a miter joint. I would use a Domino as it would keep the joint from slipping. In either case, If the back/bottom is not visible, I would also use pocket screws on the back/bottom side to pull the joint tight. The pocket screws would also eliminate the need for extended clamping/drying time.

[Jim Morgan]

Actually, he is making frames; "My OP is for a project calling for quantity run of 50 4 sided frames - visualize 1x6 laid flat as in a wide border picture frame, approx 1' wide x 4' high overall size completed."

A domino will work either way by the way.

Yes, from that, it seems I was wrong. For frames (bottom version in Glenn's pic), dominos, biscuits, or tenoning jig with solid spline will work. For boxes, biscuits or spline jig with solid spline will work. Dominos would have to be short, cut towards the inside of the joint.

[Jim Morgan]

I see the some of the smaller Dominos come in 20 and 30 mm lengths, which would work here. Damn I'm going to have to change my sig to "Emily Litella says, 'Never mind.'"

[Mark Wooden]

Thinking about getting a PC 557 Type #3 joiner to cut through spline slots on 45 mitred ends of 1x6 board laid flat, not standing on edge, using benchtop as registration, then use BB plywood cut into splines.

This says to me picture/face frames......

[Randy Heinemann]

I'd consider assembling the frames first, then running them through the table saw with a spline jig (assuming I understand desired result correctly). I've had success spreading wood glue on end grain with a couple of gaps and putting at least 2 drops of CA glue to hold them together instead of clamping. That should hold the frames together while cutting the slots for the splines on the table saw.

To clamp them this is a good option (or a similar brand as there are several out there) - WoodRiver Self Squaring Frame Clamp (https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjk2MDR_aDVAhULaH4KHTNyDmEYABAVGgJwYw&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASE-RorDEssSR-YgbqOtZ_pbZQt2E&sig=AOD64_36Y9pLdsH6H-7LIsjny1rw7mTzpg&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwiexLrR_aDVAhUo94MKHUHhBgEQvhcILg&adurl=) . I have owned one of these since the 1970's when they were first available and they work great to clamp a picture frame square. If the capacity isn't large enough just buy a threaded rod with washers and wing nuts to the capacity you need. Then you can clamp much larger frames.

Also, as another said, if you either have or can borrow a Domino, that would be the most certain and strongest way to make these frames quickly.

[Marc Jeske]

If you want to use plate joiner and joining plates (bisquits)- fastest and recommended- you should get Lamello "Max" joining plates, they measure over 3" long and 1-3/8" wide.

You can get router adapters from a good saw supply company that will allow you to run a 5" plate jointer blade in a 1/2" collet variable speed router (you'll need to slow the rpm's down) in a table and jig it up that way. Again, this is the easiest way I know.
You can also use a jig on a table saw and cut your own splines, but that is a great deal more work.

How do you plan to clamp the joints?

I would NOT be comfortable w a 5" blade on a router, no matter how solid the table and mounting.

Not on a 1/2" "spindle"

Why the leaning of you and a few others for biscuits, regular, or XL ?

Why not a BB ply spline, matching the slot cut one of many other possible ways, not a spinning 5" blade ? Marc

[Marc Jeske]

Marc:

Do you have access to a Domino (maybe a friend has one you could borrow)? If so, this could solve your problem. I have made many mitered frames similar to what you are planning to do using the domino. The domino will register the surfaces and lock the corner. Gluing can either be done with any equipment you have on hand (web; parallel jaw; wedge; glued clamping ears). I have successfully used web and corner clamp.

Don't have a Domino joiner, NO interest in buying, even if I could use one, I don't see that as the best choice for this purpose.

With my clamping technique, I do not need, or really even want side to side registration, only the face flushness. Marc

[Marc Jeske]

James Morgan sed...... "OP is making boxes, not picture frames. Domino is not the right tool for him."

Miscommunication above quote ----- They are laid FLAT on bench, boards like for picture frame, NOT on edge, NOT sides of box.

Completed piece is nominal 1" high when laying on bench. Marc

[Ray Newman]

Instead of a spline, would dowels and a dowel jig work?
Say two 3/8” or 7/16” dowels per joint?

Would be easy to do and inexpensive:
www.woodcraft.com/products/economy-doweling-jig (http://www.woodcraft.com/products/economy-doweling-jig)
https://www.infinitytools.com/self-centering-dowel-jig (https://www.infinitytools.com/self-centering-dowel-jig)
https://www.infinitytools.com/jessem-dowel-jig-master-kit-with-1-4-3-8-1-2-guides (https://www.infinitytools.com/jessem-dowel-jig-master-kit-with-1-4-3-8-1-2-guides)

Domino would definitely work, but it will not be an economical solution at US$1000.00 plus

[Marc Jeske]

I'd consider assembling the frames first, then running them through the table saw with a spline jig (assuming I understand desired result correctly). I've had success spreading wood glue on end grain with a couple of gaps and putting at least 2 drops of CA glue to hold them together instead of clamping. That should hold the frames together while cutting the slots for the splines on the table saw.

To clamp them this is a good option (or a similar brand as there are several out there) - WoodRiver Self Squaring Frame Clamp (https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjk2MDR_aDVAhULaH4KHTNyDmEYABAVGgJwYw&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASE-RorDEssSR-YgbqOtZ_pbZQt2E&sig=AOD64_36Y9pLdsH6H-7LIsjny1rw7mTzpg&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwiexLrR_aDVAhUo94MKHUHhBgEQvhcILg&adurl=) . I have owned one of these since the 1970's when they were first available and they work great to clamp a picture frame square. If the capacity isn't large enough just buy a threaded rod with washers and wing nuts to the capacity you need. Then you can clamp much larger frames.

Also, as another said, if you either have or can borrow a Domino, that would be the most certain and strongest way to make these frames quickly.

BINGO !! Randy wins with the first paragraph of above quoted post ...(unless somebody has a better method overall)

So my latest thinking is... cut the plain miter ends, assemble w CA as clamping device on a flat dedicated big piece of Melamine faced board with attached "Fences" at a perfect 90, w very thin saran wrap pieces at the corners to keep glue off jig, THEN run through Tablesaw w frame standing vertical, on a jig similar to linked below, cut correct width slot for BB ply triangle deep (large) as possible corner spline.

My face alignment registration will be accomplished w the flat assembly surface, uniform stock thickness, holding down firmly, checked w finger feeling, and in the other direction registration by the two "fences" fixed permanently to the work surface.

So, just dry fit a corner,pull away and open ends to application of CA, and shove hard into fence corner of assembly jig.

Next day, after I make a pile of the above, run them standing vertical on the Tablesaw jig shown below,( modified from drawing for 45 ) deep as possible w my 10" blade, hopefully w a flat top tooth blade,( I'll see how bad the bat wings are from regular blades, may be acceptable) then cut rough triangle splines from correct thick BB ply,, and glue in w well distributed Titebond 2, probably no clamping needed at this point, (I will check if needed, maybe independant small ones) later trim and sand.

I may need to stack blades to do a narrow dado of 1/4" for a good strong spline. Or I suppose 3/16" OK.

The tablesaw will only cut approx 3" deep,.. approx 55% of the length of the miter cut edge length, so the 45% inside remainder will still be able to float, but totally OK because.. that inside edge will later in project assembly be supported by another framing member.

One huge benefit of this method is.. If my slot is not perfectly centered on the thickness, no one will know, if it's like 1/64" or even more off.

So, cause of that, I can run my frames through the saw without worrying about always FACE side toward fence.

The big advantage to this is -- The frame when very solidly Destaco clamped in sled jig, will ALWAYS be leaning over me, rather than AWAY from me where I cannot stabilize it with other hand. (Remember it is 4' sticking up in the in the air now, about 3' unsupported above Sled jig)

Jig concept below... Only adaptation needed is 45 strips, and TWO clamps, rather than the shown 90 and single clamp.

AND, I will make it larger base, gusset where needed to stiffen entire jig, and weight it to help stabilize the largish workpiece.

Hope I explained all above OK.

PLEASE... If you think you have a better plan, respond. Marc

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/library/images/tablesaw_tenon_jig.jpg

[Rod Sheridan]

I would do an M&T joint in the mitre.

If you have a slot mortiser or a hollow chisel mortiser it would be easy.

Of course if you have a hollow chisel mortise then you could go with dowels, which are even easier............Rod.

[Pat Barry]

I don't have much experience with CA glue, but I have significant doubts that it will work, let alone hold up through your assembly process. If you are going to do the spline joint as described, why not just cut the spline slots using the jig but do ALL the gluing and assembly together? That way, the splines would control the fitup. Obviously, the 1x6 boards all need to be sized (run through your planer) to uniform and equal thicknesses and you need to register all the pieces in the jig against the same finished face to ensure the finished product doesn't have stepped joints due to misalignment. Overall I see this as much more manageable.

[Mark Wooden]

I would NOT be comfortable w a 5" blade on a router, no matter how solid the table and mounting.

Not on a 1/2" "spindle"

Why the leaning of you and a few others for biscuits, regular, or XL ?

Why not a BB ply spline, matching the slot cut one of many other possible ways, not a spinning 5" blade ? Marc
It would be known as a 1/2" shank router blade adapter, not a spindle. Shapers have spindles.

If you'll notice, I suggested you need a variable speed router to use the 5/32" plate joiner blade- they're not that much mass, being thin, but you do need to reduce the peripheral speed. My apologies, I just looked, the blade I was thinking about is 4" dia.. I used to use a router table on the occasions I needed to cut a lot of large slots, but changed to running it on one of my shapers with a 1/2" spindle running at 10,000 rpm. Much quieter. But everybody's comfort level is different

Why bisquits?. Quickest, easiest and readily available. Time is Money. No need to custom manufacture splines, no slots or fasteners showing that have to be cleaned off, filled (BB ply isn't all that smooth on the end grain plys, better off with masonite or maple dieboard) and sanded, and therefore won't telegraph through paint. No real big jigs to make and only use once, and only have to handle the parts, not assemblies. I don't have any of the alignment issues others complain about, the joints sand flat with a quick pass of 150 grit on an ROS.
You did mention you didn't think they'd be strong enough, what kind of stress will the frames be subject to?

Just about anyway that everybody's mentioned here will work, and well, all with varying degrees of set up and time spent.
Your choice as to which is most viable.

[Randy Heinemann]

My experience is that the CA glue is very strong. While I wouldn't just use CA glue alone for picture frames, the combination of the CA glue and the wood glue should work to hold the joints together until the splines are glued in place. However, if there is any doubt, then I would try one frame first as a test just to make sure. I always try to test these things out regardless of how sure I am a particular technique will work. If you try it on the first frame a test, you'll find any flaws in the process. I would, however, make sure that you find a way to clamp the joints together securely for at least the time is takes for the CA glue to dry; not long I know but the holding of the CA glue is the key to the whole thing working.

There is nothing wrong with Pat's way of doing it either.

Too bad you don't have a Domino. A Domino miter joint is a joint for life.

[Marc Jeske]

Randy sed - "then I would try one frame first as a test just to make sure. I always try to test these things out regardless of how sure I am a particular technique will work."

Definitely good practice, can't always foresee everything.


I will be getting a flat sheet of Melamine board, putting strips on perimeter as perfect 90 degree fences, dry fit miter on this sheet, apply CA and wood glue, then jam hard into fence corner, hold for 15 sec.

Will use heavy body CA to give a few seconds to align joint.

And glue my pointer finger to it in the process the first time !!

That's the plan I'm gonna try anyway.

Then cut slot on tablesaw sled for large as possible triangle BB ply spline as I explained in Post #8. Marc

[Marc Jeske]

Mark Wooden mentioned "Maple Die board", something new to me.

Looks like super flat and consistent plywood for like Patternmakers.

I can probably get regular BB consistent enough, but gonna look into this.

Very interesting.

Link below.... Marc

http://www.die-board.com/flat-dieboard.html

[Mark Wooden]

Die board is generally harder and more consistent thickness, it's considerably more expensive
I think that the CA glue will be a disappointment in your application- that's a large area, end grain is to porous for a thin glue, you need a huge amount and it won't set in the amount of time you can apply even force to the joint by hand.
You would be far better off with a good wood glue like Titebond and clamps. Around here in the Northeast at this time of year, You can pull clamps and stack an assembly for sanding the next day in about 20 mins..

But you seem set on your path, good luck.

[Randy Heinemann]

I was just learning about Titebond's Quick and Thick wood glue. According to their info, Quick and Thick will dry very quickly and is suitable for miter joints (end grain to end grain). I have actually not yet used Quick and Thick, but my understanding is that it will dry very quickly (like 30 seconds?) and does not necessary require clamping. This might be a better option even than CA glue if that info is correct if only because it is regular wood glue and would create a more permanent bond. I still believe that the CA will hold while regular wood glue sets up, but you probably wouldn't need to use more than one type of glue if you used Quick and Thick. It would be a good experiment and, if it worked, would definitely be something that would have future uses for me.

[Jim Morgan]

I was just learning about Titebond's Quick and Thick wood glue. According to their info, Quick and Thick will dry very quickly and is suitable for miter joints (end grain to end grain). I have actually not yet used Quick and Thick, but my understanding is that it will dry very quickly (like 30 seconds?) and does not necessary require clamping. This might be a better option even than CA glue if that info is correct if only because it is regular wood glue and would create a more permanent bond. I still believe that the CA will hold while regular wood glue sets up, but you probably wouldn't need to use more than one type of glue if you used Quick and Thick. It would be a good experiment and, if it worked, would definitely be something that would have future uses for me.


From the Quick and Thick product info sheet: "Required clamping pressure: Enough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 100-150 psi for soft woods, 125-175 psi for
medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)." The label says "2X Faster - 3X Thicker" so probably requires no more than 30 minutes clamping.