Vises

[Michael Gabbay]

I think my next project is going to be a new workbench. Last year I bought a Bally Block 24" x 60" maple top. I want to build something similar to the FWW design from the 2004 annual tools edition.

I've been looking at vise options. I will likely use my Record knock off on the right end and I wanted to put a second vise on the left front corner. Since this bench will be used for planing and dovetailing I would like a vise that has a nice size jaw. So the question is should I go with a traditional shoulder vise or something like the Anant (Record knock off).

Any other workbench suggestions would also be helpful.

Thanks, Mike

[Alan Turner]

Traditionally, the tail vise would occupy the front right corner (for a right handed user) and the front vise would be on the front left corner. I built mine this way, and find it works well.

[Larry Browning]

Traditionally, the tail vise would occupy the front right corner (for a right handed user) and the front vise would be on the front left corner. I built mine this way, and find it works well.

So, are you saying that for us leftys the tail vice should be on the front left side and the front vise on the right side? I don't think I have seen one built that way, but since I am about as left handed as they come, and I will be building a new workbench as my next major project, I really want to know!!
(I am really not trying to steal this thread!)

[Roy Wall]

Larry,

You are correct ------opposite

Lefty's usually have the tail on the left; face vise on the right. But, I imagine, it's all in what you are use to............


My vote would be for the LN face vise; or the LV twin-screw as a front vise------along with the traditional tail vise.


So, are you saying that for us leftys the tail vice should be on the front left side and the front vise on the right side? I don't think I have seen one built that way, but since I am about as left handed as they come, and I will be building a new workbench as my next major project, I really want to know!!
(I am really not trying to steal this thread!)

[Alan Turner]

Yup; that is what I am saying. I am right handed, and push a plane with my right hnad, guiding with my left. So, I work from right to left, with the wood to my right, and push towards the dog and away from the tail vise. You would do the opposite, being a lefty. Problem is, not many companies sell left handed vises.

[Michael Gabbay]

Alan - that was what I was planning on. The tail vise for me would be the metal Record knock-off that I have. The front vise would be either another Record style or a large shoulder vise like the LN quick release. I would mount the should vise on the front left and the Record (tail) on the right end.

So any preference between the Record style metal vise versus the traditional wood shoulder vise (LN)?

Also, for the apron are dovetails preferred over finger joints?

Mike

[Alan Turner]

Michael,
The LN -- http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=quick -- is the same mechanism that is on the old Richards Wilcox vises, of which I have 4, and one in use now. It works well. Very quick. LN is spendy, but it will be good hardware I am sure. As to the question on the record metal vise as a tail viase, I am not sure of what you are speaking of. I have now built three traditional tail vises, one with the hardware from Woodcraft, and two from Atlas, in Canada. The Woodcraft was better hardware, I think. Fewer TPI, which is important. Like Frank Klaus, I want an electric winder on my tail vise. The LN tail vise hdw. looks great, from Germany I think, but again is quite expensive.

[Michael Gabbay]

Alan - Actually it would not be a tail vise but just mounted on the side end of the bench not the front.

Mike

[Roy Wall]

Michael,
The LN -- http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=quick -- is the same mechanism that is on the old Richards Wilcox vises, of which I have 4, and one in use now. It works well. Very quick. LN is spendy, but it will be good hardware I am sure. As to the question on the record metal vise as a tail viase, I am not sure of what you are speaking of. I have now built three traditional tail vises, one with the hardware from Woodcraft, and two from Atlas, in Canada. The Woodcraft was better hardware, I think. Fewer TPI, which is important. Like Frank Klaus, I want an electric winder on my tail vise. The LN tail vise hdw. looks great, from Germany I think, but again is quite expensive.

Like Alan says..........I'm sure the LN vise is excellent. It's what I'd get.

I've been to our local Woodcraft many times and look as those vises. You may save $20 by getting one of theirs.........but that is trivial $$$--- you'll have the vise for the rest of your life. Eat at home a couple extra meals next week and you've covered the cost........:)

Alan - Dude; you know your stuff!!!:D :) :cool:

[Michael Gabbay]

If I go with a traditional shoulder the LN would be my first choice. I trust their judgement on tool quality. That's partly why I have no money!:D

[Alex Yeilding]

Michael:

I think Bob Key's discussion of vise options at http://www.terraclavis.com/bws/benches.htm is excellent. There is a good summary table about 1/2-way down the page.

Note that what you (and LN) refer to as a shoulder vise, he calls a "Continental Style Vise", while he uses "shoulder vise" to refer to a vise like the one on Klausz' bench in the Landis book.

[Alan Turner]

I researched the availability of tail vise hardware some time ago, and will start again as I need a bunch of it. The LN is great, it seems, and may be the best in that it included what looks like a welded "U" frame which should promote stability, but the price of 10 is staggering. The best thing about the LN is the 2-3TPI design. The Atlas looks like a Record screw, acme thread, at 8 TPI. This is way too fine for a vise, IMHO, as it takes forever to wind and unwind. Feels like when I used to start a model airplane by hand. Sweat a bit, and keep winding. Live and learn. That vise is pictured on Ron Kanter's post some time ago as he and I built a pair in my basement, one for him, and one for the new studio.

I might well shy away from using a fornt vise as a tail vise. YOu end up actually planing on the tail vise as you start a plane cut, and so starting on a metal vise, then traversing open space, would not work well on thinner stock because of deflection. Just my 2 cents.

[Steve Wargo]

I researched the availability of tail vise hardware some time ago, and will start again as I need a bunch of it...

Alan,
You may want to look into just building your tail vises and use only the tail vise screw for hardware. I build my last bench vise like that, using a model for one of the tail vices in the workbench book. I can't remember off the top of my head which one it was, but mine was identical with the exception of the sliding mechanism, which I ended up using a sliding dovetail and the other was just a straight joint. It was very sturdy and, I thought, opened and closed quickly enough. But the only thing I ever found myselft using it for was for marking dovetails so I opted for not using one on the new bench. Just faster to plane against a dog, than clamping between a dog and another in a vise

[Michael Gabbay]

Alan good point of the tail vise.

I checked with LN yeaterday and the QR shoulder vise is only in stock sporadically. Since I don't need one right away, they are going to hold one for me. They have offered to bring it to the Chantilly show in March. I might have them ship it sooner depending on when I get started on the bench.

Mike

[Alan Turner]

Steve,
I have been considering that option as well, although I have not made such a vise before.

Does anyone have a good source for proper lead screws?

[Steve Wargo]

Alan,
I purchased mine from Woodcraft. Very durable, and I think it only cost me about $45. Making the vise was very straight forward. I actually used a piece of Turkish boxwood for the "tail" portion of the sliding dovetail. After 7 years of use there was no evidence of wear when I sold the bench.

[Dev Emch]

Michael...

Here are a few notes of interest. First, the hardware used by LN is excellent and of german decent. But as I recall, you can also get most of this from woodcraft. Regarding your face vise. The one in the 2004 FWW edition you cite has a quick release system. This is a gravity/turn operated half nut and its nice. Woodcraft has this hardware. You can sniff about the net to find similar versions as well. You will want a face vise with plenty of space between the guide rails and the edge of your vice face so that you grasp things. Another item you may wish to consider is a pattern maker vise.

As for the tail vise. DO NOT USE A FACE VISE FOR MAKING A TAIL VISE. A similar argument holds for using the Lee Veritas twin screw vise. Here is the problem. The clamping axis of a tail vise is never inline with the actual lead screw. Ideally it needs to be but this is not possible. So two design elements are needed to rectify this. First, you will need to move the axis of the lead screw as close as possible to the clamping axis. Within inches! Second, you need to incorporate design features that restrict the destructive torque moment generated by an off center lead screw axis.

Have you ever noticed on old school tail vises that there is a vise "horn" on the tail end of the vise? This "horn" is not for clamping stuff to the end of your bench. Its for keeping a runner that is designed to counter act the torque moment of the offcenter lead screw. This will become obvious when you review the tail vise designs of say Frank Klaus, etc. If you build a tail vise from scratch using only a lead screw, this extra wooden structure will be needed. Are the metal plate slider designs, which includes the one by LN, superior? Not really. Either design works great and you should use the one that makes you warm and fuzzy.

I have never needed a quick release vise for opening and closing the tail vise. Often, the amount of movement needed is not that much. But having nice, leather lined jaws is a real treat. It allows you to prop half lap tail sides in there at a comfortable angle and have at it. The face vise; however, is one that can benefit from quick release and if you can get a vise that has it, do it. That is why the quick release vise kit from woodcraft caught my attention.

Some pattern maker vises such as the emmert have 1 inch lead screws with aprox. 4 TPI acme threads. These do not have quick release. But the oliver vise and later the kindt collins vise have another psudo quick release feature. Kindt Collins bought the oliver vise design and just changed the name from Oliver to Kindt Collins. In this vise, the lead screw was increased to 1.25 inches and a DUAL 4 TPI acme thread was used. This allows one to get twice the movement from one rotation of the handle. Very nice feature. But dont bother trying to find one of these from Kindt Collins. KC sold off the design and no longer support it and would rather not be bothered by those trying to find it or to find parts for it. Your going to have to hit the used market and these are as rare as hen's teeth. Also note that an actual emmert K1 or the Kindt Collins vise have 18 inch wide jaws. The import clones are not even close to that.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Michael Gabbay]

Dev - As always great information! I'll look at the Frank K. tail vise design to see what you are referring to. I need to pick up the Scott Landis book befrore I start ordering and cutting so I can fianlize the vise configuration.

Mike

[Mike Weaver]

Dev - As always great information! I'll look at the Frank K. tail vise design to see what you are referring to. I need to pick up the Scott Landis book befrore I start ordering and cutting so I can fianlize the vise configuration.

Mike

Mike,
Yes, the Scott Landis Workbench book is HIGHLY recommended.

FWIW, when I get to finishing my bench, I plan on making a metal-core tail vise. The core will be 1/2 of a box beam with dovetail grooves cut longitudinally to ride on the plate with male dovetails cut on the edges. I have access to a post-neander machine to cut these though...:D

The hope is that with a very rigid core, I won't tneed the advanced wood 'horn' to which Dev so aptly referred.

The screw I'm using is a large tail vise screw from Lee Valley.

I'm ashamed to admit how long ago I started this bench. It's been a decade. :eek:

Cheers,
-Mike

[Mark Stutz]

Michael,
A new bench complete with tail vise is somewhere on my horizon. For a face vise I am giving serious consideration to using a LV twin screw. The true shoulder vise allows for clamping the full width of the vise without wracking, but I don't really have room for that appendage sticking out into the shop. The twin screw seems like a good solution, yet allows one to clamp to the apron for edge planing etc.

Mark

[Gary White]

Steve,
.

Does anyone have a good source for proper lead screws?

Wooden screws may be available from whcard@USDatanet.net).
The man's name is Howard Card and he made the wooden screws for Mike Dunbar's workbench.