Gap Between the Top of a Kitchen Wall Cabinet and the Bottom of the Soffit

[Bob Deroeck]

Hi,

I've been planning for years to make kitchen cabinets for my house. But, reality is setting in. My back and arms are saying "are you kidding?". My wife's almost infinite patience is dissipating and showing that "almost" does apply. So, I'm capitulating to reality and buying custom-built cabinets.

I'm in the process of designing the cabinets, along with the cabinet maker's in-house designer. They will be face frame cabinets with inset doors and drawers, cherry with natural finish. Face frame, doors and drawer fronts will be Mission style. The kitchen is U-shaped with a soffit over all the cabinets. The top of the wall cabinets will butt against the bottom of the soffit, as much as the "out-of-level" soffit will allow. That brings me to my primary question. How to handle to gap between the bottom of the soffit and the top of the wall cabinets?

The soffit is a maximum of 3/4" out-of-level along the run of wall cabinets. I don't want the heavy look of a built up crown type moulding along the top of the wall cabinets. I was thinking about installing a simple small moulding to cover the gap above the cabinets. I'm leaning towards either a simple plain strip (Maybe 1-2" high and 3/8 - 1/2" deep) in keeping with the Mission style or a small shoe or cove moulding. I'm open to any and all suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

The designer has proposed a top rail for the face-frame of the wall cabinets which is 1 1/4" high. My concern is that such a narrow rail will highlight the out-of-level situation, regardless of the type of moulding I decide to use. If I choose the simple small moulding I described above with, say, a 1" high x 3/8" deep plain strip, then at the low point of the soffit 1/4" of the top rail would be visible below the moulding compared to 1" at the high point of the soffit. I suspect that would look pretty bad. I'm considering two possibilities to reduce the visible impact of this out-of-level. First, increase the height of the top rail to, say, 3". This would increase the visible top rail below the moulding to 2 1/4" at the soffit low point and 3" at the soffit high point. I'm guessing this would de-emphasize the visible impact of the out-of-level compared to 1 1/4" high top rail design.

Second, the soffit bottoms are relatively flat, just out-of-level (sloping either upwards or downwards). So, I could taper the moulding strip height so that about half of the out-of-level is seen on the top rail exposure and the other half on the height of the molding strip. I haven't explained this very well. I'll try to give an example. If a 3" high top rail is used and a 1 1/2 high simple moulding strip, then the moulding strip would taper from 1 1/2" high at the high point of the soffit to 1 1/8" high at the low point of the soffit. This would split the visible impact of the 3/4" out-of-level with half on the moulding strip itself and half on the visible height of the top rail. I'm not sure whether this approach of tapering the height of the moulding strip would be effective for de-emphasizing the visible impact of the out-of-level.

Again, any and all suggestions are welcome.

I can play around with different options for the moulding once I install the cabinets. But, for now, I do need to finalize the height of the top rail.

Thanks.

Bob

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with your choices. Sounds like the designer is new to this line of work. Rather than one strip ,I would use two .One overlapping the other to show an even rabbet type reveal. Just expiriment with some strips of wood to get the best dimensions.

[Peter Christensen]

I think you are going about this the wrong way. You are going to be spending many thousands on a new kitchen and are trying to make the old and new fit a compromise. It it were me, when I ripped out the old cabinets I would be taking the bottom drywall off the soffits, shimming to straight and level, and then putting new drywall on while the rest of the walls are being cleaned, patched and painted. Even if you have to pay a someone to do the work, that amount will be small in comparison to the new cabinets, probably new appliances and fixtures, flooring and whatever else you are adding. It will also make for a much easier install and you will then end up with a clean even trim along the cabinet tops. I know money isn't gushing from our pockets but there are times when getting the basics right is money well spent.

I'm not trying to chew you out but giving you another option.

[Ted Reischl]

Why save the soffitts? They are sooooo 1970's.

Plus, you get more cabinet space when they are gone.

[Jacques Gagnon]

Bob:

I agree with Peter.

Being in the "final stages" (my wife has been extremely patient) of our remodeled kitchen (plywood boxes; cherry face frames; cherry inset doors and drawers all made in my hobby shop), I relate to the challenge you are facing. We chose to have cabinets installed about 4 inches from the ceiling and I am trying to wrap up the project: top moldings and toe kicks. If I was to change something to the approach we used it would probably be to build soffits and butt the cabinets against them (as you are proposing to do). In my mind spending time and effort on the "new soffit" (ie flat and level) will save you a lot of time and trouble afterward.

Hope this helps!

Jacques

[Andrew Hughes]

I agree take the soffit out. Plus you might find hidden treasures :rolleyes:

[johnny means]

You could vary the cabinet heights and depths. This would create a more "custom" look, as well as obfuscate the soffit's issues.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Why save the soffitts? They are sooooo 1970's.

Plus, you get more cabinet space when they are gone.


I agree take the soffit out. Plus you might find hidden treasures :rolleyes:

I've overhauled 2 or 6 old houses and if they had kitchen soffits - - the soffit was full. Some just had insulation:cool:. Some were there to hide every utility in the house - HVAC, gas, water, and electric:mad:.

I'd suggest you take a peek thru a small hole before you commit to removal. Or, take a look from the attic if accessible.

[Jim Becker]

I also agree with either removing the soffits or rebuilding them "level" if they are required to hide pipe/duct. The other alternative is to design the cabinets so they are slightly taller and can be scribed to the non-level soffits as they are being installed.

[Mel Fulks]

Removing the soffit is certainly worth exploring. I think you are dealing with a "sales lady", not a designer.

[Nike Nihiser]

You don't get more cabinet space unless you pay for bigger cabinets:-)

[Jim Dwight]

I've built a set of kitchen cabinets but it takes a very patient wife which is not what I currently have. So I have a bunch of semi-custom cabinets in the garage waiting for the flooring guy to finish the floors. We removed the soffits to gain cabinet space. That increases the cost of the cabinets a little if you go to 42 inch cabinets and a lot more if you use 12 inch on top of 30 inch like we are (for appearance reasons).

I would definitely not spend a lot of time trying to make new cabinets work with old, poorly constructed soffits. Remove them or fix them. They also do not have to be drywall. The ones we tore out were plywood. There was some stupid wiring behind them but it came out easily.

[Marc Jeske]

My main thought is - The wider the topmost rail, the less you'll see the slope.

1 1/4" seems crazy small, especially when you have an up to 3/4" deviation. Marc

[Brian Holcombe]

3/4" is huge, I agree with those who say to remove or repair the soffit. There is no molding that is going to make that appear correct.

Not all soffits are removable. I'm building kitchen cabinets currently and the soffit is actually 12" thick of 2x12's that the original builder installed for some reason.

[Bill Dufour]

Another vote for repair or remove the soffits. Any test holes drill from the bottom of the soffit so they do not have to be patched if they can not come out.
To rebuild I would rip a 2x2, the long way, at the angle needed and screw it in place. Then a quick wash of drywall compound on the face to match the texture. After the cabinets are installed only the face of the soffit will show so no need to level the entire bottom face of the existing soffit.
Unless you like climbing ladders I would leave the soffit in place. Most people have a hard time getting stuff in and out of the top cabinets with kitchen counters pushing your torso away from the wall. If you leave a blank space above the cabinets the 3/4" difference will not be noticeable but it will be hard to clean up there.
Bill

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm on board the remove and/or repair bus also!

[Eric Anderson]

When I redid my kitchen, I also removed the soffit. In my kitchen they were there so the builder could use shorter cabinets and not have to pay for 42" uppers, no wiring, not HVAC, no nothing. Now I love my higher cabs (I also build my lowers so they are 39" in height. Reaching things on the top shelf is easy, but I'm 6'6". for my wife, not as much, but all she has to do is call the human step ladder :)

[Bob Deroeck]

Hi,

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. Some more information. The soffits all hold recessed lighting, so I'm hesitant to eliminate them or do major surgury. Also, I have a large pantry adjacent to the kitchen with lots of cabinet space in the pantry, so maximising cabinet space in the wall cabinets in the kitchen is not a priority.

I like the idea of modifying the existing soffits to eliminate the slope. I'll have to wait until I take down the current wall cabinets before I get a full picture of what is required. Some ripped and tapered 2 x stock, some thin drywall. and some plaster to cover moderate gaps may do the job. If I could purchase 1/4" drywall that would be great, but I've never seen anything less than 3/8" stuff. Maybe 3/16" plywood with a skim coat will work.

In any case I'm not happy with a 1 1/4" high top rail for the wall cabinets. I'm going to increase that to 3", since I will apply a narrow trim piece (3/4-1.5" high) to the top of the cabinet whether I repair the soffit or not.

Any additional ideas on how to build up the soffit to eliminate the soffit slope would be welcome.

Thanks again.

Bob

[Bill Dufour]

If you have lighting in the soffit you can not just cover it with cabinets and trim. You have to find the power supply and disconnect it. Otherwise some one could turn them on and eventually they will overheat and start a fire since there not be any airflow to cool things off. At the very least remove the bulbs. This may be as simple as capping off a line in a switch box.
Code says any junction box must be accessible. If you just disconnect at the first light fixture that will be a violation and the inspector will make you pull the cabinets to fix the problem.
Bill

[Wayne Lomman]

Before demolishing anything, check the floor level in comparison to the soffit level. They may be parallel.

My approach in older houses is to have 150 high kickers and 150 high heads/top rail. Any height variations are thus rendered undetectable by most people, especially considering the human tendency to not look above eye level.

In general, taking cupboards all the way to the ceiling sounds great, but how tall is the main user of the kitchen? Are a set of steps provided for access to the top shelf?
Don't ignore the fact that soffits remove the dust trap on top of cupboards which no-one likes to get up to clean. Soffits may have originated in the 70s but it is really the decoration that dates a kitchen, not the soffit. Cheers

[Ole Anderson]

I was fortunate on my last kitchen remodel, the soffits were not hiding anything, so they came down, but not without a fight. Tall cabinets get rid of that 70's look. Crown molding filled any gaps. Infrequently used things go on the top shelves. I say if you are going to do a kitchen remodel, take it down to the studs and start with a fresh sheet of paper, including lighting. I went with six 5" cans with LED's, located to illuminate counter space, 90 watts total with the kitchen light on. By removing your soffits and the kitchen ceiling, you have the ease of easily rewiring the lighting and shimming the joists to flatten your ceiling. In my case, I also got rid of the ceiling texture which I would have not been able to easily match after the soffits were taken out.

[Robert Engel]

I'm assuming the soffit extends beyond the cabs, right?

Please post a pic so we can see what you're talking about.

Anyway, if I'm understanding this, you could make a frame and apply to the bottom of the soffit shimmed to level, then re-face with 3/8" drywall. Check the lights the mounting flanges might still work.

Bottom line I would do away with the soffit and install recessed lighting in the ceiling and use undermounts on the upper cabs.

I also don't get the narrow top rails???

[Charles Lent]

If the soffits have an inch or more of the bottom facing edge that can be covered, how about building custom cabinets with a top rail that will overlap the uneven bottom edge of the soffit. The cabinets would need to be 1" deeper, and an outside end cabinet 1" wider, but it will hide the uneven bottom edge of the soffit. I haven't tried this, it's just a thought. Ignore me if you wish.

Charley

[Brice Rogers]

As Brian said, 3/4" is huge. I have a new car that is about 3/8" from being level left-to-right and I can see it and it irritates me.

I'd take the soffits apart and fix the out-of-level situation. If you try to take care of the problem with the cabinetry, I think that it is going to look goofy.

[Martin Wasner]

I've built a set of kitchen cabinets but it takes a very patient wife which is not what I currently have.

I feel your pain. I'm a professional cabinetmaker. I had our kitchen gutted, rewired, replumbed, and retiled with new cabinets and countertops in less than two months working on it in the evenings and weekends. She still winced and whined about how long it took. The GREATEST thing about it? We don't cook. Hahahahaha

To the OP, tear the soffit out of it's not hiding some mechanical nightmare. That's a 50/50 on whether it is or isn't. Pick a crown you like. Depending on how far out of whack the actual ceiling is you can adjust the spring on the crown and twist it into place to hide the variances. It does take a medium sized or larger crown to make that work through. The little stuff puts up to much of a fight.

[John Connelly]

it takes a very patient wife which is not what I currently have
I would definitely not spend a lot of time trying to make new cabinets work with old, poorly constructed soffits. Remove them or fix them.

He speaks the truth! Also, don't do any demo work until your new cabinets are built and any other major materials are on site. If you are uncomfortable (or slow like me) redoing the soffits/drywall, hire someone. When it comes to projects like this downtime is a huge issue.

[Bob Deroeck]

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. I've attached 3 photos which show all of the soffit. The house is a ranch with a 5-in-12 roof. So, getting to the recessed lights above the sink is almost impossible. It was just possible in that I did that to replaced the failed recessed lighting fixtures which were "drywalled-in". That job is right near the top of "worst jobs I've ever had to do". As you can see I replaced the drywall around the fixtures with plywood and will add trim to hid the drywall/plywood joint. All of the plywood and trim, including the window header trim will be screwed and removable to allow future access to the recessed light fixtures.

The high point of the soffit in at the corner to the right of the stove.

You guys have convinced me that the soffits should be removed, replaced, or fixed prior to installing new wall cabinets. I have a large pantry with plenty of cabinet space on the other end of the kitchen, so I don't need the extra cabinet space from having taller wall cabinets. Also, I like the recessed lights above the sink and the area with the half wall is located. The recessed lights in the soffit near the stove can be deleted. They are used occasionally, but we usually are using the hood lights or undercabinet lights to light the counter top in this area. Because the soffits are all tied together and I want to retain them over the sink and half wall area, I'm leaning towards modifying the existing soffit to eliminate the slope. I'm thinking of using tapered shims glued to the existing soffit bottom with construction adhesive and covered with 1/4" drywall. Then, setting joint compound or plaster, or a combination of the two would be used to fill in the relatively large sloping areas at the end of the 1/4" drywall. Any other thoughts on how to modify the soffit to eliminate the gap where it will meet the new cabinets would be welcome.

Wayne asked about the floor level. It's off by about 7/8", but the soffit is not parallel to the floor. The high point of the floor does not match the high point of the soffit. My plan for addressing the out-of-level of the floor was shimming the base cabinets to be plumb and level with the stone countertop level at 36" above the floor at the high point of the floor and accepting variation of the countertop height above the floor of +7/8", so there would be a maximum countertop to floor distance of 36 7/8 at the low point of the floor. My wife says she's OK with this. Any comments on this approach are also welcome, though I'm pretty sure I will not consider tearing up the floor and subfloor, shimming the floor joists, and reinstalling the subfloor and oak floor.

Bob


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[Brian Holcombe]

FWIW, Crown molding is going to look out of place in a mid-century ranch house. I would avoid doing any heavy crown or any crown for that matter. If you really need a molding for something, make up a plain molding.

Mid-Century ranch is a modern period home and so the original style should be respected for any renovations, in my opinion. Modern means working with reveals and plain moldings. The layering of moldings was largely done away with or simplified in mid century housing.

If you take out the soffit, I would likely make similar length cabinets and just leave clear space above the cabinets. The trend currently is to have wall-units for storage/oven/refridge and to completely do away with the upper cabinets. It can be a bit extreme in cases where they're needed for storage, but IMO it looks quite nice especially in modern homes. So I don't think that having full length cabinets is really necessary.

Very tall cabinets are befitting a Victorian style, which largely based on the Victorian butler's pantry, which were often heavily detailed and utilized floor to ceiling cabinetry. If you take notice that when people refer to their victorian style kitchen, it is very much unlike a victorian period kitchen which was mostly a workhorse of a room with a giant cast iron stove. Instead the detail has been borrowed from the Butler's pantry.

[Mel Fulks]

I still say a couple of strips making a rabbet will make all OK. The problem is commercial interests are focused on constant
change. Soffits have to go ....or many will have no reason to buy new cabinets. I'm crazy enough to think that cabinet height has nothing to do with anything beyond quantity of stuff. But I predict that since Boomers are ageing ,kind designers will soon demand NEW soffits to protect us from falling off ladders.

[Ole Anderson]

FWIW, Crown molding is going to look out of place in a mid-century ranch house.

It may, if you want to keep the outdated look of a mid-century ranch. I didn't. When I did the kitchen, I had my buddy crown the living room and hallway to get rid of the cracks that were showing up at the joint. Looks much nicer now.

[Jim Becker]

If there's a willingness to change the lighting, the soffits could go away even with that roof pitch...modern LED technologies can be used for very minimal depth situations like that. It's an option...but does cost money.

[Mel Fulks]

It may, if you want to keep the outdated look of a mid-century ranch. I didn't. When I did the kitchen, I had my buddy crown the living room and hallway to get rid of the cracks that were showing up at the joint. Looks much nicer now.
I'm more toward this view. Preservation is good but former dream house bungalows are being rapidly torn down , no market to sell or rent. The ranch has got to "adapt" or "go extinct".

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm not suggesting that every mid-century home needs to be preserved in it's original form. What I am saying is that they should be updated without ignoring what they actually are, they're 'modern' design and so that which makes sense with modern design is more suitable to them than that which does not. Modern, in this context, refers to a design period. Mid-century design falls under the category of 'Modern' and generally refers to post WWII American, Danish and Italian design.

It's not uncommon to see modern design outfitted with contemporary Italian/Danish/Japanese design for that exact reason, the two forms mesh well together. I think that is good advice for someone who is jumping into a remodel.

If you were updating a Craftsman, Victorian, Early American, etc etc, the same respective advice would apply. Consider what you have before making design choices.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with that concept,Brian. But the ranch house was always interpreted in many different ways. I have relatives who had custom ranches built with living rooms and dining rooms drawn up with crown. They saw those rooms as formal,and they were certainly not. But to people who had been brought up in old farm houses with lots of siblings ,an indoor bathroom with a door was "formal". And even F.L. Wright couldn't always get people to behave in "his houses"!

[Eric Keller]

I wish I could get rid of my soffits, I looked in there and it's a mess of plumbing and wiring. They make the kitchen feel cramped.

[Jim Becker]

I wish I could get rid of my soffits, I looked in there and it's a mess of plumbing and wiring. They make the kitchen feel cramped.
I guess you wouldn't enjoy the 6'10" ceiling in our kitchen. LOL :D (It's not level, either)

[Martin Wasner]

I guess you wouldn't enjoy the 6'10" ceiling in our kitchen. LOL :D (It's not level, either)

My last house was 9' 8" in the kitchen. That was awesome and opened up a lot of opportunities.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/7f59bd_0e08a993e7a74950a0c6cb5d84eb6e8a.jpg/v1/fill/w_959,h_639,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/7f59bd_0e08a993e7a74950a0c6cb5d84eb6e8a.webp

[Jim Becker]

Even at 5'11", I'd feel "short" in that kitchen, Martin, as compared to our, um...lofty...6'10" kitchen ceiling. When that section of this house was built sometime in the 1950s (based on the balloon construction), the ground floor ceiling was matched to the 6'10" ceiling height of the 250 year old stone section it's next to. It makes sense, but when we first bought the property in 1999, there were fake beams on the kitchen ceiling and merely trying to take off a coat could result in something ranging from a simple bruise to splinters. LOL :D I ripped those suckers out when I renovated it in 2003.

BTW, beautiful cabinetry!!

[Martin Wasner]

BTW, beautiful cabinetry!!

The upside to owning a cabinet shop. You can build anything you twisted little brain desires.

I did learn from that house that if I ever build a house, great lengths will be taken to get a 10' ceiling in the kitchen. Bigger crown, deeper beams, and a deeper profile on the panels. I'd also just sheet the ceiling in plywood so you can screw anywhere.

I only lived in that house for a few years, had I thought it would've been more permanent, I would stepped it up a notch on everything woodwork. At a certain point you have to step back and go; "what am I doing putting all this effort into this dump?"