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Brian W Evans
07-19-2017, 6:19 PM
Suppose a client brings you an image to engrave that you know is copyrighted, trademarked, or otherwise protected. Do you engrave it for the customer?

Does it matter if they are asking you to engrave several / hundreds / thousands instead of one?

I used to work at a Kinko's copy center and we wouldn't make copies of anything we knew to be copyrighted. I always thought the company was being overly cautious but, if not, would I be correct in assuming the same thing applies to engraving?

If you don't engrave protected images, etc., how much responsibility do feel you have for finding out whether or not something is protected?

I'm not looking for actual legal advice, just curious about common practices.

John Lifer
07-19-2017, 6:25 PM
I am new to the game, but no. I've had several requests from Arkansas razorback items. I have a couple of images that are not licensed images, thise are the only ones I've done and sold. It costs a Benjamin per year to license as crafter. I might do it at some point, but nit right now.

Gary Hair
07-19-2017, 6:26 PM
No, never. I don't hesitate to tell the customer that it can't be done. It doesn't matter if it's one or ten thousand, I'm not willing to take any chances even if there is 0% chance of getting caught. There is plenty of money to be made that is 100% legit.

Bert McMahan
07-19-2017, 6:36 PM
Hopefully not too much of a tangent from the original post, but say a job was big enough that you wanted to go legit with it. Do you just start calling legal departments asking about licensing, or is there a better way to do things?

Robert Bonenfant
07-19-2017, 9:33 PM
If you know the item is copyrighted or has a trademark do not make the item, doesn't matter how large the purchase order. You are knowingly manufacturing illegal goods and can get in alot of trouble and be forced to pay fines, damages and in most cases you would be required to destroy any and all inventory relating to the protected item, Ive been down this road cost me $5000 and I was lucky that was it. Like Gary said "There is plenty of money to be made that is 100% legit". Sure there is a chance you might not get caught making a few products but why risk your business for a few extra $$$ in sales.

In most cases you can get in contact with a Trademark owner by Email or a simple phone call (I did this last week to use a font for production) - Some ask for money to be able to use there copyright, some just want there name posted as the creator. Some will say no but its worth a shot to ask.

Bert are you trying to sell the product ? or is someone walking into your shop and saying hey make ten thousand of these ? If your trying to manufacturer and sell the product, than you would be required to contact the trademarks owner.
If your customer is selling the item and only using you as a manufacturer than they should make the call and setup the licensing deals. It can get sticky if you sell to a unauthorized reseller.

Charles Wiggins
07-19-2017, 11:49 PM
Penalties for copyright infringement include civil and criminal penalties. In general, anyone found liable for civil copyright infringement may be ordered to pay either actual damages or "statutory" damages affixed at not less than $750 and not more than $30,000 per work infringed. For "willful" infringement, a court may award up to $150,000 per work infringed. A court can, in its discretion, also assess costs and attorneys' fees. For details, see Title 17, United States Code, Sections 504, 505.
Willful copyright infringement can also result in criminal penalties, including imprisonment of up to five years and fines of up to $250,000 per offense.

https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

Mike Null
07-20-2017, 8:51 AM
My personal practices may be different than others but generally, I avoid even doing onesies of major league sports teams, Disney related items, Harley Davidson items. I do accept onesies for college teams even though I know they are protected but I do not do quantities. I had used some Greek symbols on my web site and was in a two year argument with the firm contracted to protect those symbols. I finally agreed to remove them from my web site. I was able to continue with the ones I had under contract but they just asked that I cease and desist using the others.

We had a civilized and courteous dialogue during this time. Since I do not invite retail business I get very few requests to do copyrighted work from those who do not have authorization to use it.

Clark Pace
07-20-2017, 10:06 AM
Also. Have a customer sign a paper before the works. 1. If a customer brings in their own thing to be engraved . You are not responsible if something happens and the item does not turn out right. Especially if you have samples to test first and second. Some images are hard to know if this they are copyrighted. If so have them sign that they have the rights to let you do it. Of course some images may be obvious. Other not

Bert McMahan
07-20-2017, 11:15 AM
If you know the item is copyrighted or has a trademark do not make the item, doesn't matter how large the purchase order. You are knowingly manufacturing illegal goods and can get in alot of trouble and be forced to pay fines, damages and in most cases you would be required to destroy any and all inventory relating to the protected item, Ive been down this road cost me $5000 and I was lucky that was it. Like Gary said "There is plenty of money to be made that is 100% legit". Sure there is a chance you might not get caught making a few products but why risk your business for a few extra $$$ in sales.

In most cases you can get in contact with a Trademark owner by Email or a simple phone call (I did this last week to use a font for production) - Some ask for money to be able to use there copyright, some just want there name posted as the creator. Some will say no but its worth a shot to ask.

Bert are you trying to sell the product ? or is someone walking into your shop and saying hey make ten thousand of these ? If your trying to manufacturer and sell the product, than you would be required to contact the trademarks owner.
If your customer is selling the item and only using you as a manufacturer than they should make the call and setup the licensing deals. It can get sticky if you sell to a unauthorized reseller.

Robert, I had an opportunity to make a reasonably sized (for me) run of some doodads with commercial property on them a while back. I certainly didn't do it but I did try to get in touch with the company's legal department to get a license. They ended up saying "no" but I was mainly wondering about the process itself; it often seems like emails to the "contact us" address on websites just go into a black hole for questions like this.

I'm not trying to find a way to sneak in some production, I'm just trying to find out how to do these things the *right* way. The way I tried last time was me contacting a non-lawyer company rep, who tried to talk to their merch team, who tried to talk to their lawyers... and it seems like there HAS to be an easier way to do this.

Etsy is rampant with people producing things without proper licensing and I'd love to sell things on there, but even if the odds are minuscule that I'd get caught I'd rather just make money the legit way.

The job I was talking about was from a year or so back. I could've made a few grand on it (a massive job for someone dorking around in my basement!) had I just done it without licensing but of course I didn't.

Matt McCoy
07-20-2017, 11:50 AM
Some IP owners will have a link on their website to get in contact about licensing, but you might have to be persistent, especially if they get inundated with requests.

Marketplaces, like Etsy, are rampant with IP infringement. They have a DMCA policy, which requires the original holder to file a take-down notice. Some holders will do sweeps, from time to time, which whack a little off the top, but there are 10 more copycats waiting to fill the gap. If caught, you likely will not be able to sell on their marketplace after a few violations. There are members that will also report violators to the original IP holder.

Bruce Clumpner
07-20-2017, 12:04 PM
As the holder of 5 collegiate licenses, the U.S. Service Academies, I know it's a PITA to finally get things figured out with the license holder or their management company. The overhead of managing a license once issued is also a bit tedious, what with reporting and royalty payments. But once that's done, it a great way to build a relationship with the organization. Being licensed has opened doors that normally would not have been available if I was just cold-calling, looking for business. I'd suggest taking the time to make it work, as it's worth it in the end, specially if you're connected as an alumn, family or fan ...

So for example, while not a laser product, here's a shot of one of our bronze plaques sitting in the head football coach's office at West Point! No way could we have developed a relationship there without the approval the license provides...
364215

Happy to provide any help in the process if needed.

Mike Null
07-20-2017, 12:13 PM
My first step on something like that is with the customer. He should get the approval for you. If he is not a representative of the company in question then the answer is easy.

Brian W Evans
07-20-2017, 12:33 PM
My personal practices may be different than others but generally, I avoid even doing onesies of major league sports teams, Disney related items, Harley Davidson items. I do accept onesies for college teams even though I know they are protected but I do not do quantities. I had used some Greek symbols on my web site and was in a two year argument with the firm contracted to protect those symbols. I finally agreed to remove them from my web site. I was able to continue with the ones I had under contract but they just asked that I cease and desist using the others.

We had a civilized and courteous dialogue during this time. Since I do not invite retail business I get very few requests to do copyrighted work from those who do not have authorization to use it.

Mike,

I'm surprised that Greek symbols are protected. Are we talking about Greek letters as in fraternities and sororities? It seems like those couldn't / shouldn't be protected. Did the firm want to sue Socrates as well?;)

Brian W Evans
07-20-2017, 12:36 PM
As the holder of 5 collegiate licenses, the U.S. Service Academies, I know it's a PITA to finally get things figured out with the license holder or their management company. The overhead of managing a license once issued is also a bit tedious, what with reporting and royalty payments. But once that's done, it a great way to build a relationship with the organization. Being licensed has opened doors that normally would not have been available if I was just cold-calling, looking for business. I'd suggest taking the time to make it work, as it's worth it in the end, specially if you're connected as an alumn, family or fan ...

So for example, while not a laser product, here's a shot of one of our bronze plaques sitting in the head football coach's office at West Point! No way could we have developed a relationship there without the approval the license provides...


Happy to provide any help in the process if needed.

Bruce,

Does your license allow you to make one-off stuff for anyone who comes in or is there some sort of approval process you have to go through with the academies before you can make something?

Bruce Clumpner
07-20-2017, 12:50 PM
Most of our product designs are pre-approved, but I've build some customization into the designs. So for yeti-like tumblers we can add personalization, or for award plaques, we can add info on the award and it's recipient. There are ways to work with the design process.

Mike Null
07-20-2017, 8:49 PM
Greek symbols as related to Greek organizations are protected. Using a single symbol is not.

Joseph Shawa
07-24-2017, 4:45 PM
If it doesn't have a copyright stamp or watermark then I cannot see how one would determine if there were indeed a copyright on it.

If you just need to know then ask the customer or better yet let them know that you need a signed letter from them assuring you that "All artwork submitted is original design by them or non copyrighted work. It seems that would be reasonable. Otherwise you will only be engraving geometrical shapes....well, at least the ones that aren't already copyrighted.

Anyway, the fine is a minimum of $200 and the court might actually grant you permission to continue to infringe with a fair commission to be paid to the owner.

Matt McCoy
07-24-2017, 5:09 PM
If it doesn't have a copyright stamp or watermark then I cannot see how one would determine if there were indeed a copyright on it.

If you just need to know then ask the customer or better yet let them know that you need a signed letter from them assuring you that "All artwork submitted is original design by them or non copyrighted work. It seems that would be reasonable. Otherwise you will only be engraving geometrical shapes....well, at least the ones that aren't already copyrighted.

Anyway, the fine is a minimum of $200 and the court might actually grant you permission to continue to infringe with a fair commission to be paid to the owner.

Copyright is granted as soon as the work is made. A trademark must be registered. If the IP holder or agent discovers infringement, you may get a cease and desist, judgment against you, or both. See a few posts prior, where a gentleman stated he was lucky that he only had to pay $5,000 and destroy his inventory. You might reevaluate the last sentence in your post.

Kev Williams
07-24-2017, 5:17 PM
-paying a commission to the owner is the definition of NOT infringing ... ;)

Dave Sheldrake
07-24-2017, 8:34 PM
the fine is a minimum of $200 and the court might actually grant you permission to continue to infringe

The statutory damages alone if the infringement is wilful and for commercial purpose can be up to $150,000 per item.

For reference EU trademarks are not required to be registered, there is a difference between R and TM over here and both are equally valid worldwide.

Joseph Shawa
07-25-2017, 9:57 AM
"The statutory damages alone if the infringement is wilful and for commercial purpose can be up to $150,000 per item."

1. Willful. That is why you get a letter of assurance from customer that the work is un copyrighted.
2. $200. Yes up to $150,000 but we aren't talking copying a Maserati.
3. Per "Item". No, it is per not each work infringed not each work made
Also there are the considerations that favor fair use.

1. It is a small amount relative to the market.
2. Licencing or permissions are unavailable.
3. Small effect on the market.

Yes, there is one line that scares me in there, the rebel that I am,

Infringer pays for all attorneys fees and court costs


Anyway, not to be argumentative and certainly I wouldn't "steal" anyones work to make a profit off of it, but I don't like my hands tied such that I am afraid to do anything because I don't know if it's copyrighted or not.
You could always just rent them the machine and have them push the start button themselves you are not so sure.

Scott Shepherd
07-25-2017, 10:14 AM
Anyway, not to be argumentative and certainly I wouldn't "steal" anyones work to make a profit off of it, but I don't like my hands tied such that I am afraid to do anything because I don't know if it's copyrighted or not.
You could always just rent them the machine and have them push the start button themselves you are not so sure.

It's quite easy to not violate copyright laws. It all depends on who you target as your customers. If you are working flea markets, you'll probably get asked 5 out of 5 times if you can do a Harley logo. If you deal with professionals, then you'll get asked 0 out of 5 times to violate copyright laws.

Matt McCoy
07-25-2017, 10:21 AM
"The statutory damages alone if the infringement is wilful and for commercial purpose can be up to $150,000 per item."

1. Willful. That is why you get a letter of assurance from customer that the work is un copyrighted.
2. $200. Yes up to $150,000 but we aren't talking copying a Maserati.
3. Per "Item". No, it is per not each work infringed not each work made
Also there are the considerations that favor fair use.

1. It is a small amount relative to the market.
2. Licencing or permissions are unavailable.
3. Small effect on the market.

Yes, there is one line that scares me in there, the rebel that I am,

Infringer pays for all attorneys fees and court costs


Anyway, not to be argumentative and certainly I wouldn't "steal" anyones work to make a profit off of it, but I don't like my hands tied such that I am afraid to do anything because I don't know if it's copyrighted or not.
You could always just rent them the machine and have them push the start button themselves you are not so sure.

"Copyright law is a “no fault” law. If any one of these exclusive rights are violated, there is no excuses. The reason for the infringement has no merit."

"For any work registered with the U.S Copyright Office prior to an infringement or within three months of the works publication is entitled to statutory damages, which range from a minimum of $750 to a maximum of $30,000 per infringement, the specific amount being determined by the court."

"...intentionally and knowingly violated his or her copyright, then the damage award increases to a range of $30,000 to $150,000 per infringement."

Here's a little reading for you. ^^^

Keep in mind that when you lose in court, you will likely also have to pay legal fees and court costs for the party suing you.

Lynn Misanti
07-25-2017, 11:20 AM
We had a client come in with a coffee table book of photographs that he wanted us to make placemats for his cafe with the cafe logo on the photo. I looked into the rights on the photos. He could use them for his purposes if he paid $5000 royalty fee per photo (there were 30 of them) to use them. He tried to get us to make them without the fee but we explain the law to him. He seemed to understand. A few months later I go there with my mom to have lunch, he had them done online by someone who didn't care about copyrights. The whole cafe has the placemats with the picture he does not have the rights to and his logo emblazoned on it.

Scott Shepherd
07-25-2017, 12:14 PM
We had a client come in with a coffee table book of photographs that he wanted us to make placemats for his cafe with the cafe logo on the photo. I looked into the rights on the photos. He could use them for his purposes if he paid $5000 royalty fee per photo (there were 30 of them) to use them. He tried to get us to make them without the fee but we explain the law to him. He seemed to understand. A few months later I go there with my mom to have lunch, he had them done online by someone who didn't care about copyrights. The whole cafe has the placemats with the picture he does not have the rights to and his logo emblazoned on it.

It'll catch up with them. I remember seeing some guy post some photos of a wrap he did on come company trucks for a client. He was bragging about how awesome it looked. It was all black with skulls all over it and his clients were very happy with it and taking it to all of their events. Then someone realized that the skull images was actually a famous photograph from a pile of skulls in Cambodia, from a war. The original photographer of the photo contacted the guy and told him those skulls were human remains from a war, and not something to used on an advertising campaign. He lawyered up and the guy had to go back to the client and remove the entire wrap and start with a new design. His customers were not happy. The guy disappeared off the forum after that, so I don't know what ever happened, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should, in the case of copyright.

John Lifer
07-25-2017, 12:19 PM
Online, HMMM, Several of those guys are in Canada..... a lot in China, who cares no whit for any of our trademark or copyrite laws.

Kev Williams
07-25-2017, 12:59 PM
Questions-- I find a piece of copyrighted art online, I download it, and print it on MY T-shirt for MY use--
--did I violate copyright law?

Same thing with Trademarks-- Can General Motors or Harley Davidson tell me I can't copy a bowtie or HD shield logo off one of their ads and print it on my own T-shirt?

Gary Hair
07-25-2017, 1:16 PM
Questions-- I find a piece of copyrighted art online, I download it, and print it on MY T-shirt for MY use--
--did I violate copyright law?

Same thing with Trademarks-- Can General Motors or Harley Davidson tell me I can't copy a bowtie or HD shield logo off one of their ads and print it on my own T-shirt?

Yes, they could tell you that. Are you going to get caught? Not likely. Are they really going to pursue you? Not likely. Still doesn't make it right...

Joseph Shawa
07-25-2017, 1:51 PM
Agreed.How much did you pay for that Steeler's logo? I would never duplicate it on my machine.

Scott Shepherd
07-25-2017, 2:01 PM
Agreed.How much did you pay for that Steeler's logo? I would never duplicate it on my machine.

You might want to study "Fair Use" before suggesting I'm violating copyright laws by using the Steelers Logo as an Avatar on a forum.

Call my shop and ask if we'll create a Steelers decal for you. The answer is no.

AL Ursich
07-25-2017, 4:44 PM
When I was first starting to learn about Engraving while still working at Sony in Bensalem, PA just down the street was the Croydon Train Station. Not too far from there was a Vinyl Shop I took interest in but never visited. I was going to Atlantic City to ARA Shows for a few years learning about Sublimation and Lasers and Copyright..

The Shop closed and I asked the Texaco guy next door what happened.... The story goes that he made a 12 foot Harley banner and at a show the customer was asked "Where did you get THAT..." The customer handed the guy a Business Card.

Harley took the shop and all the equipment was smashed and put in a dumpster.... Not sure why they took the shop? Don't know how much he did. At least that is the story I was told in early 2001 or so...

In a Sign Magazine in a story about "Call before you DIG" was a quote.... "Many a Fiber Optic Cable Company have closed Sign Shops.... "

I always remembered it when I was asked many times to do Harley Stuff....

Mike Null
07-25-2017, 5:10 PM
I don't do Harleys for any reason and I have had some motorcycle guys a little upset but I firmly believe Harley has bounty hunters out there.

Scott Shepherd
07-25-2017, 6:29 PM
In a Sign Magazine in a story about "Call before you DIG" was a quote.... "Many a Fiber Optic Cable Company have closed Sign Shops.... "



I know the feeling. We had an outdoor sign to install, had Miss Utility called, they marked the site, we dug and I felt my heart skip a beat when the guy with me says he hit something. 600 pair phone line. No mark on the grass for it. I cleared the dirt away and sure enough, there were a few bundles of wire cut. I called a friend who dealt with stuff like that and he told me that he was in the middle of an issue where someone in the Washington DC area had hit a fiber cable. They were liable for millions of dollars. The fiber went to a massive office building and there was a huge call center there. It shut them down until it was repaired so they were liable for all the lost wages, etc. from all the down time of all the businesses they impacted. He had me sweating. Luckily, we had insurance.

Then, after finally getting all the right people there, it wasn't our fault, it wasn't marked and we had been cleared to dig, and Verizon said it was an abandoned line, that's why it didn't get marked. It'll get your attention for sure.

Joseph Shawa
07-25-2017, 6:34 PM
Apparently I am a lawsuit waiting to happen. Fortunately I don't do that type of work; mostly personal stuff. That said, when someone emails me a professional looking family photo then it would in my best interest to NOT do the job. If fact, how would you trust that items were not copyrighted unless you designed them yourself or they were simply lettering. Even in the case of lettering you have to make sure the font isn't protected. Do you do all that? The best and most reasonable way to stay in business is to make sure you get a letter stating that the design is NOT copyrighted and then just pray.

John Lifer
07-25-2017, 10:53 PM
I know that in MS they have gotten really aggressive with the call before you dig. State law allowing a fine, I think it was a thousand dollars.... I haven't heard anything like that up here in AR, guess it's too rocky..

Dave Sheldrake
07-26-2017, 12:15 AM
Even in the case of lettering you have to make sure the font isn't protected. Do you do all that?

Yes, I do, that's why I pay lawyers a considerable amount of money on retainer to make sure that I don't end up joining people I helped put in prison in a previous career as I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be too pleased to see me anytime soon.

Scott Shepherd
07-26-2017, 8:10 AM
If fact, how would you trust that items were not copyrighted unless you designed them yourself or they were simply lettering. Even in the case of lettering you have to make sure the font isn't protected. Do you do all that? The best and most reasonable way to stay in business is to make sure you get a letter stating that the design is NOT copyrighted and then just pray.

It's called being a responsible business owner. You do the right thing. If your business model relies on using other people's work without their consent or compensation, then you don't have a very good business model. I've had people bring us professionally taken portraits to engrave. Sorry, no can do without the permission of the photographer, unless you bought the rights to them, which very few people do.

How'd you like it if you put a photo on the internet and someone took that photo and created products from it and made profits without your permission or compensation to you?

Mike Null
07-26-2017, 9:06 AM
Steve
That's a particularly good example and one that I have confronted with even more frequency than trademarks. It is quite common for people to believe that because they paid for the photo it was theirs to do as they wish.

Gary Hair
07-26-2017, 12:37 PM
Yes, I do, that's why I pay lawyers a considerable amount of money on retainer to make sure that I don't end up joining people I helped put in prison in a previous career as I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be too pleased to see me anytime soon.

Oh, I bet they would be very happy to see you...

Dave Sheldrake
07-27-2017, 1:21 AM
Oh, I bet they would be very happy to see you...

hahahahahaha probably :) I don't get the feeling I would enjoy my new life though :)

Bob WrightNC
07-28-2017, 5:34 PM
Talked to a shop owner about a month ago that was telling me about going to the retail gift market and buying some product with licensed logos on them. She bought six of these items. Turns out the product was unlicensed and the license owner determined the manufacturer wasn't solvent, so they went after the gift shop for selling unlicensed product. They settled for $50,000 and she was glad to get out of it for that amount. $50,000 for less than a couple hundred bucks of product. Six pieces to be exact. She had tears in her eyes telling me about it.

Kev Williams
07-29-2017, 12:36 PM
I read some these stories and quite frankly, I have to raise the BS flag on some of them. The story about the Harley banner, that would've made news- I searched it out, found zilch. Not saying it didn't happen but I'm skepical. Because during that search I did find literally dozens different reports of Harley suing for infringement, and the vast majority of them stated they had issued cease and desist orders, or were suing simply to stop the infringement, NOT for everything someone owns just to destroy it out of spite. Harley has of course been awarded monetary damages, but in these cases (that I found) the infringer was knowingly and blatantly manufacturing and selling counterfeit goods. This is is bit different from someone UNknowingly buying a few hundred bucks worth unlicensed goods and reselling them. This is grounds for a cease and desist order, not a $50k settlement. And it's not like Harley is so innocent: http://ghiplaw.com/lawsuit-filed-against-harley-davidson-for-copyright-infringement/

I was hit with trademark infringement about 12 years ago, and during the same period a customer of mine was also hit. We both got cease and desist letters. I ceased and desisted, my customer, who sells over $40k a month worth of the same company's other items, told them fine, but he'll stop selling their items and just sell $40k's worth of someone else's stuff a month. They changed their tune, haven't bothered him since. Ironically, the stuff he sells that "infringes" (debatable)... I think I'll digress ;)

and just yesterday I was hit with a C&D from the ATF, they sited that I was breaking the law since
your firearms activity appears to bring you within the definition of a GUNSMITH OF FIREARMS as that term is defined by the Gun Control Act . A person engages in business as a GUNSMITH in firearms by devoting time, attention and labor to engaging in such activity as a REGULAR COURSE OF TRADE OR BUSINESS [<remember this] with the principal objective of livelihood and profit. See 18 USC sec. 921(a)(21)(C)
Of course, they conveniently left OFF a significant, and very important section of the same law they're using against me-- Sections (C) as referenced above (definition of a DEALER), and also section (D) below (definition of a GUNSMITH) reads at the end:

A person engages business as a GUNSMITH....with the principal objective of livelihood and profit BUT SUCH TERM (gunsmith) SHALL NOT INCLUDE A PERSON WHO MAKES OCCASIONAL REPAIRS OF FIREARMS, OR WHO OCCASIONALLY FITS SPECIAL BARRELS, STOCKS, OR TRIGGER MECHANISMS TO FIREARMS; (note that by definition, 'engraving' is included in the definition of a gunsmith.
Get that? If I'm only OCCASIONALLY engraving firearms, I am specifically NOT defined as a GUNSMITH! And this is EXACTLY why Nathan Palmer of our local ATF joint told me 3 years ago that I COULD LEGALLY ENGRAVE GUNS.

But that didn't stop 2 ATF agents from 'setting me straight' yesterday. And as they walked around my shop, they found dozens of various SS plates, a few hundred lamacoid labels awaiting tape, 3 cases of SS radiator covers, about 15 aluminum operator panels in progress, a hundred AB legend plates I'm working on, 2 dozen green lamacoid 'start' buttons, shelves and cubbies loaded with lazersteel, brass, trophy aluminum, countless sheets of Rowmark, a couple dozen motorcycle seat leathers, 100 or so Jetway buttons, 50 or so AV cases the fiber is engraving, an "enter here" sign, some urns, couple of dozen boxes of glass awards, about 500 cowbells, couple of cases of aluminum alloy trays, some stainless trays, about 4 cases of small flashlights and Gerber knives, some brass police badges, a dozen or so rings I need to learn to engrave on the fiber, 2 cases of wood earring and watch boxes---

--and all of ONE AR lower, and TWO shotgun receivers, that remain un-engraved, awaiting the owners to pick them up.

I triple dog dare ANYONE to prove I'm anything BUT an "occasional" engraver of firearms! If I fought this, I would likely win, the law as written is clear....Or, is it, and could I? I've also found some rulings that simply state "if you engrave what we call a firearm, you need a license". But, that's a 'ruling', not a 'law'. And I found another ruling that seems to contradict the last one. The simple fact is, the end result of any legal action is all dependent on how the person(s) with the final say interprets the law. Or the ruling...?

Which is the whole point of my mini-novel here: don't believe everything you read, see or hear when it comes to legal issues, especially those requiring a license or permission to keep someone from suing you or throwing your butt in jail. If you're not sure if you need a license, chances are you do (even if you don't ;) ) Safest route is to just play it safe. And if someone DID actually pay someone $50 large over a few hundred bucks worth of 'innocent infringement', they either didn't have a lawyer, or the one they had was in on the scam. I would love to see some actual news reports on these stories, I'm okay with being proven wrong! :D

.

.

Scott Shepherd
07-29-2017, 12:58 PM
Kev, ask them to define "Significant". My first contact with the ATF prior to engraving a single gun, lead the ATF agent to tell me that the rules said that it must be a SIGNIFICANT part of our business. He said that unfortunately, no where in any of their documentation was "Significant" defined. So that left the door open for people to do the work and not have a FFL. He said, in his opinion, that if it were 10% or less of your business, then he thought you'd be fine and not need a FFL, but he couldn't legally recommend that.

Good luck with that. Like you said, fight it and win, or wave the white flag and move forward. I would agree with them, if you had a lower in your possession that didn't belong to you, then you've taken possession of a firearm and you need a FFL to do that. However, if the guy was sitting in the corner, waiting for you to do it while he waited, then I'd say you would have been perfectly fine.

Best thing at this point is just apply for the FFL and carry on. It's simple, and the logging of items is simple, and then you have nothing to worry about.

Dave Sheldrake
07-29-2017, 2:40 PM
https://www.devonnewscentre.info/online-trader-sentenced-for-selling-counterfeit-goods/

https://www.westminster.gov.uk/trading-standards-trader-prosecuted-selling-unsafe-olympic-toy-bears

http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/env_services/tradingstandards/fake_goods/punishment.htm

Have fun, the following is just Wrexham (A tiny area of the UK)




October 2009 at Mold Crown Court 2 Wolverhampton men received 100 hours community punishment each, and 12 weeks imprisonment suspended for 2 years for selling counterfeit clothing at Chirk Car Boot Sale. Case referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation resulting in confiscation order in excess of £50,000.
July 2009 at Mold Crown Court. Wrexham man jailed for 9 months for sale and possession of counterfeit clothing in the People’s Market, Wrexham. Case referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation.
November 2008 at Mold Crown Court. Stockport man jailed for 6 months for sale and possession of counterfeit clothing at Chirk Car Boot Sale. Case referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation resulting in confiscation order in excess of £50,000.
November 2008 at Wrexham Magistrates Court. 3 months curfew order imposed on Wrexham man for selling counterfeit DVDs in a public house.
October 2008 at Mold Crown Court. Wrexham man received a 20 week prison sentence, suspended for two years and placed on supervision for 2 years. Also made subject of a 3 month curfew. Case referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation resulting in confiscation order in excess of £3,000.
June 2007 at Mold Crown Court. Wrexham man received 6 months imprisonment, suspended for 2 years, and sentenced to 200 hours community service for sale and possession of counterfeit CDs and MP3s. The case was referred for Proceeds of Crime Investigation resulting in confiscation order of £20,000.
December 2006 at Birmingham Crown Court. Wrexham man jailed for 12 months for involvement in conspiracy to supply counterfeit DVDs via the internet.

John Lifer
08-01-2017, 2:20 PM
Kev, I'm with Scott, if you want to continue with engraving gun parts. Spend the $200 and the time to get fingerprint cards done, picture taken and a couple hours for paperwork. Send it all in and then in a few months, spend an hour or so with the ATF rep reviewing your application. Nod your head a lot, then wait for another month or two to get the license. Log any guns you keep overnight. Only give back to person who gave to you in the first place. Give them a bit more money every 3 years. And for sure stay legal this way......

Tim Bateson
08-01-2017, 2:31 PM
...Spend the $200 and the time to get fingerprint cards done, picture taken and a couple hours for paperwork.....

Why spend $200 on an 01. Apply for the 07, which also cover 01 for only $150. Yes, only the government would think to charge less for more.

John Lifer
08-01-2017, 3:05 PM
Cause I'm not very smart...... I forgot about that. When I first filled out paperwork, I thought it was additional....

Gary Hair
08-01-2017, 3:06 PM
Why spend $200 on an 01. Apply for the 07, which also cover 01 for only $150. Yes, only the government would think to charge less for more.

It may be less to apply but it's more to renew - an 01 is $90 where an 07 is $150. If you plan on having it for more than 3 years then you'll spend more money in the long run.

AL Ursich
08-01-2017, 8:30 PM
]I read some these stories and quite frankly, I have to raise the BS flag on some of them. The story about the Harley banner,[/COLOR] that would've made news- I searched it out, found zilch. Not saying it didn't happen but I'm skepical. Because during that search I did find literally dozens different reports of Harley suing for infringement, and the vast majority of them stated they had issued cease and desist orders, or were suing simply to stop the infringement, NOT for everything someone owns just to destroy it out of spite. Harley has of course been awarded monetary damages, but in these cases (that I found) the infringer was knowingly and blatantly manufacturing and selling counterfeit goods. This is is bit different from someone UNknowingly buying a few hundred bucks worth unlicensed goods and reselling them. This is grounds for a cease and desist order, not a $50k settlement. And it's not like Harley is so innocent: http://ghiplaw.com/lawsuit-filed-against-harley-davidson-for-copyright-infringement/

I was hit with trademark infringement about 12 years ago, and during the same period a customer of mine was also hit. We both got cease and desist letters. I ceased and desisted, my customer, who sells over $40k a month worth of the same company's other items, told them fine, but he'll stop selling their items and just sell $40k's worth of someone else's stuff a month. They changed their tune, haven't bothered him since. Ironically, the stuff he sells that "infringes" (debatable)... I think I'll digress ;)

and just yesterday I was hit with a C&D from the ATF, they sited that I was breaking the law since
Of course, they conveniently left OFF a significant, and very important section of the same law they're using against me-- Sections (C) as referenced above (definition of a DEALER), and also section (D) below (definition of a GUNSMITH) reads at the end:

Get that? If I'm only OCCASIONALLY engraving firearms, I am specifically NOT defined as a GUNSMITH! And this is EXACTLY why Nathan Palmer of our local ATF joint told me 3 years ago that I COULD LEGALLY ENGRAVE GUNS.

But that didn't stop 2 ATF agents from 'setting me straight' yesterday. And as they walked around my shop, they found dozens of various SS plates, a few hundred lamacoid labels awaiting tape, 3 cases of SS radiator covers, about 15 aluminum operator panels in progress, a hundred AB legend plates I'm working on, 2 dozen green lamacoid 'start' buttons, shelves and cubbies loaded with lazersteel, brass, trophy aluminum, countless sheets of Rowmark, a couple dozen motorcycle seat leathers, 100 or so Jetway buttons, 50 or so AV cases the fiber is engraving, an "enter here" sign, some urns, couple of dozen boxes of glass awards, about 500 cowbells, couple of cases of aluminum alloy trays, some stainless trays, about 4 cases of small flashlights and Gerber knives, some brass police badges, a dozen or so rings I need to learn to engrave on the fiber, 2 cases of wood earring and watch boxes---

--and all of ONE AR lower, and TWO shotgun receivers, that remain un-engraved, awaiting the owners to pick them up.

I triple dog dare ANYONE to prove I'm anything BUT an "occasional" engraver of firearms! If I fought this, I would likely win, the law as written is clear....Or, is it, and could I? I've also found some rulings that simply state "if you engrave what we call a firearm, you need a license". But, that's a 'ruling', not a 'law'. And I found another ruling that seems to contradict the last one. The simple fact is, the end result of any legal action is all dependent on how the person(s) with the final say interprets the law. Or the ruling...?

Which is the whole point of my mini-novel here: don't believe everything you read, see or hear when it comes to legal issues, especially those requiring a license or permission to keep someone from suing you or throwing your butt in jail. If you're not sure if you need a license, chances are you do (even if you don't ;) ) Safest route is to just play it safe. And if someone DID actually pay someone $50 large over a few hundred bucks worth of 'innocent infringement', they either didn't have a lawyer, or the one they had was in on the scam. I would love to see some actual news reports on these stories, I'm okay with being proven wrong! :D

.

.

Very likely BS... I asked the business down the street and that is the answer I got... Never thought to search for it...

:) AL or in this case... LA....