Shapton Glass question

[brian zawatsky]

I'm looking to step up my sharpening game. I know sharpening threads can become rather contentious around here, so I'm not seeking brand/method/metallurgy/quantum mechanics advice, just a bit of knowledge from users of the Shapton glass stones.

I have definitively narrowed down my purchase to the Shaptons, and have a set of 500/2000/16000 (tel:500/2000/16000) sitting in my shopping cart at the moment, as well as a DMT duo for flattening & aggressive grinding. What I'm wondering is do I need an intermittent grit between the 2k and 16k stones? Or should I ditch the 500 and maybe go 1k/4K/16k? My primary need is for sharpening plane irons, but they will also handle chisels and the like.

edit: Also, do I need a Nagura stone for the high grit Shaptons like you do for regular water stones?

another edit: Nevermind guys. I just noticed that a few threads down someone asked almost the exact same question lol

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I would very much recommend an intermediate grit- Ideally a 5k AND an 8k, but at least one of the two. I would say 5k. The jump from 2k to 16k is huge. Even 2k to 8k is a fair difference. Once you get to the higher grits, then the difference is microns and you can jump further. That is why I say a 5k. You CAN jump from 2k to 16k, but it will take longer and wear out your stones quicker. The shorter jump between grits, the quicker you will get a polished edge and the less time you will spend per stone.

As for the nagura stone, I use a small pocket fine diamond hone as a nagura- something like this https://www.dmtsharp.com/sharpeners/pocket-models/mini-sharp/
I break off the handle and use the stone as a nagura. I use different grits for different grit waterstones, but the fine is a good choice if you just want one.

[Prashun Patel]

I do 1000, 5000, 8000 shaptons. Pro not glass. Works fine. I don't use a nagura on any of them. 8000 gets a mirror if I clean it well.

[Steve Mathews]

OP of one of the threads mentioned and in a similar situation - Rob Cosman apparently transitions from a 1000 grit diamond stone to a 16000 grit Shapton when sharpening plane blades. His reasoning in response to your concern is that only a small area on the back and tertiary bevels is being honed in the process so it only takes a little extra time to remove the 1000 grit scratches. I think he uses intermediate grit stone(s) when preparing the back of chisels. One of the posters in response to my thread suggested the Sigma Select II stones as a more cost effective alternative to the Shapton Glass Stones. I'll probably decide on one or the other today or tomorrow.

[Patrick Chase]

[QUOTE=brian zawatsky;2707765
I have definitively narrowed down my purchase to the Shaptons, and have a set of 500/2000/16000 (tel:500/2000/16000) sitting in my shopping cart at the moment, as well as a DMT duo for flattening & aggressive grinding.[/QUOTE]

The #500 Shapton Glass is a rather soft stone and dishes quickly. Make sure to get the double-thickness 10 mm version (https://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Glass-Stone-500-Thick/dp/B00DTIO3GC/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_469_tr_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9ETHSGSX4ZPJQF6N6FEM) if you go that route.

[brian zawatsky]

Thanks for the replies guys. I ended up going with Shapton Pro's instead of the Glass series & saved a bit of money. Ordered a 1k, 5k, 8k, and 13k and paid a substantial amount less than I would have for the 3 Glass HR stones. What I was really shooting for was a ceramic abrasive as opposed to the Al-Ox that regular water stones use. Was able to order a DMT Dia-Flat lapping plate with the savings. 👍

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks for the replies guys. I ended up going with Shapton Pro's instead of the Glass series & saved a bit of money. Ordered a 1k, 5k, 8k, and 13k and paid a substantial amount less than I would have for the 3 Glass HR stones. What I was really shooting for was a ceramic abrasive as opposed to the Al-Ox that regular water stones use. Was able to order a DMT Dia-Flat lapping plate with the savings. 

Umm, almost all modern "Aluminum Oxide" waterstones use alumina-ceramic abrasive grains. The thing that distinguishes them is how those grains are held together.

In that regard the Shapton stones are resinoid, meaning that the abrasive particles are held together by a plastic resin (if you imagine dumping a bunch of abrasive into a pot of epoxy and letting it harden, then you're not all that far from the truth). The non-porosity of the plastic resin is what enables Shaptons to be used without soaking. In contrast many other stones, such as all Sigmas and many Imanishis, use heat-fired ceramic binders.

In other words, if you wanted a "ceramic" stone then you bought exactly the wrong thing.

[brian zawatsky]

Haha! Thanks for clearing that up. What attracted me to the Shapton stones is that they do not need to be soaked, which seems to me would be messy and a PITA. I assumed (incorrectly) that the difference was in the type of abrasive grit used, rather than the binder.

[Andrew Hughes]

That's a nice set of stones very close to my setup.You made a good choice.

[Dave Zellers]

If your experience is like mine you will find that you do benefit from soaking those stones, at least the lower grit ones up to and especially including the 5000. No more than 15 minutes. Never leave them soaking for long periods.

[Patrick Chase]

If your experience is like mine you will find that you do benefit from soaking those stones, at least the lower grit ones up to and especially including the 5000. No more than 15 minutes. Never leave them soaking for long periods.

Yeah, I have the Pro 5000 and it tends to accumulate localized loaded-up "spots" that fill with debris and stop cutting. Soaking for a few minutes fixes that behavior.

I believe that Shapton themselves state that those stones shouldn't be soaked longer than 15 or 20 min. Going longer than that softens the surface such that the topmost layer has to lapped away to work well again.

[Paul K. Johnson]

I have several Shapton ceramic stones. The finer the stones get the less I like them. The item being sharpened drags on the stone a funny way. I've thought about it a lot trying to find a way to describe it and have come up empty. But it's almost like trying to move the blade over very thin, dry wet-suit material.

I've tried several fluids for sharpening including plain water, windex and water mixed with honing fluid that claims to prevent rust. Water was the worst and the other two are about the same.

I'll be watching this thread because I've wondered about the glass stones myself.

Edit: I just read Malcolm's post and maybe I'm jumping up in grit too fast. I start with 1000 grit if the edge is really dull then I move to 5K and finally 12K. After that I strop and it makes a HUGE difference in edge sharpness. If it still cuts paper cleanly then I start at 5K, then 12K and then strop. Maybe I need a stone between 5K and 12K???

[Paul K. Johnson]

I stopped using diamond to flatten my stones. It kills my diamond stones (DMT) and takes too long. I get better results using 200 silicon carbide paper on a granite plate. I always soak my wet or dry paper for at least an hour before I use it. The paper conforms to the plate very well after that and it won't move no matter how much force I put on it because of the water lock between it and the stone.

[Paul K. Johnson]

Umm, almost all modern "Aluminum Oxide" waterstones use alumina-ceramic abrasive grains. The thing that distinguishes them is how those grains are held together.

In that regard the Shapton stones are resinoid, meaning that the abrasive particles are held together by a plastic resin (if you imagine dumping a bunch of abrasive into a pot of epoxy and letting it harden, then you're not all that far from the truth). The non-porosity of the plastic resin is what enables Shaptons to be used without soaking. In contrast many other stones, such as all Sigmas and many Imanishis, use heat-fired ceramic binders.

In other words, if you wanted a "ceramic" stone then you bought exactly the wrong thing.

I've actually wondered how well a home-made stone would work. You can buy grit of any time in any grade. So all you'd need to do is make a mold box, pour in the epoxy/grit mix and let it cure. Maybe cure it under vacuum.

I think it would work ok if you had the right type epoxy.

I doubt it's worth the effort unless you get a stone that's comparable to one that's fairly expensive and your costs to make one were enough less that it's worth the time it takes to make them.

[Patrick Chase]

I've actually wondered how well a home-made stone would work. You can buy grit of any time in any grade. So all you'd need to do is make a mold box, pour in the epoxy/grit mix and let it cure. Maybe cure it under vacuum.

I think it would work ok if you had the right type epoxy.

It may not actually be epoxy - I chose that because it's a plastic resin that most woodworkers would have experience with.

In fact I suspect that it isn't epoxy based on the fact that the surface of Shapton stones softens if you soak them too long. That implies a resin that is somewhat susceptible to water.

[Dave Zellers]

I always soak my wet or dry paper for at least an hour before I use it.
I'm having a 'Why didn't I think of that?" moment.

A tidbit here, a tidbit there, pretty soon I will look like I know what I'm doing!

[Dave Zellers]

Yeah, I have the Pro 5000 and it tends to accumulate localized loaded-up "spots" that fill with debris and stop cutting. Soaking for a few minutes fixes that behavior.

I believe that Shapton themselves state that those stones shouldn't be soaked longer than 15 or 20 min. Going longer than that softens the surface such that the topmost layer has to lapped away to work well again.
After soaking I use a 4000 Nagura during sharpening when the 5000 gets ornery. And keep it wet with a spray bottle.

Yes- I got the 15 minute soak time from Shapton's recommendation. I did forget about mine once for probably 45 minutes and it seemed fine but hopefully that will be the only time. I'm sure the 15 minute rec is conservative to allow for idiots like me.

[Chris Parks]

I use 500, 2000,8000 glass stones and a 13000 Sigma followed by stropping, or that was the theory when I bought them and it quickly went out the window. I now hollow grind on a CBN wheel if grinding is required and follow that with three or four swipes on the 2000 for a micro bevel, then the 8000 and onto the 13000, hone with green paste on a piece of MDF and in less than five minutes I have an edge that is sharp. Touch up takes no time at all. It is truly a revelation in how fast it can be to have a working edge on a blade. The 500 is never going to be used at this rate from what I can see nor the rest of the Sigma stones I bought as a set from Stu.

[Ted Phillips]

I use Shapton Pros as well. My 3-stone core sharpening set is a 500-2000-8000 grit progression. I also have a 120 grit Pro stone that I use for grinding rough edges. I don't have a motorized grinder, but those CBN wheels look great. I use Spyderco's CBN Tri-angle stones in my SharpMaker for knives, and they work fantastic.

You should take a look at Chris Schwarz's sharpening manifesto over at his blog. Love him or not, he makes you think...