Shaper or router for small crown molding?

[Jim Mackell]

I need to make about 50 lineal feet of miniature crown molding. The width of the face is just a hair under 2 inches and the molding will be roughly 1/2 inch thick. Can't find a similar profile in any of the catalogs I've looked at. So we probably need to buy a bit. We have both a shaper and a good router table setup. Any recommendations on which avenue would be best to pursue? Any recommendations on best suppliers for custom profiles?

Thanks!

[Mel Fulks]

I would use a corrugated head on the shaper. Insist on real M2 steel ,not something " same hardness as M2" . Make it clear the knives must have good sharp well defined points and corners. Put dimensions on your drawing , in case of distortion.

[Peter Christensen]

For 50 feet I would use whatever tools (router, table saw, shaper, hand planes, scrapers, sandpaper) with multiple cuts to get the profile rather than spend money on more tooling you won't use again. You'll have the job done by the time you locate a custom router bit or shaper tooling. Different if you expect to make more in the future but for a one off nibbling away in several passes is better to me.

[Jeff Duncan]

Depends on what your budget is and what tooling you already have. If you have a corrugated head and have a bit of leeway with cost I'd go with corrugated knives. There are plenty of suppliers out there but CG Schmidt is one in particular that will provide quality stuff. If on the other hand you had a Euro head handy I would have knives made for that....much cheaper and will certainly get the job done. Custom router bits I try to avoid as they're a bit spendy and if you have a shaper....why bother?

You may also consider the type of work you may be doing in the future. If you think you'll run into more if these situations it can be very handy to have a corrugated, or Euro, (though ideally both), head lying around;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Wayne Lomman]

Shaper will give you a better result. You know what your resources are but mouldings are always better off the shaper. Cheers

[Keith Hankins]

Could you post a pic of the profile. Could easily be made by CNC if profile cannot be found

[lowell holmes]

You can find shaper cutters, but they are expensive.

[Rod Sheridan]

You can find shaper cutters, but they are expensive.

Hi Lowell, I find the opposite, large router bits are expensive, steel knives for the shaper aren't...................Regards, Rod.

[Jim Mackell]

Depends on what your budget is and what tooling you already have. If you have a corrugated head and have a bit of leeway with cost I'd go with corrugated knives. There are plenty of suppliers out there but CG Schmidt is one in particular that will provide quality stuff. If on the other hand you had a Euro head handy I would have knives made for that....much cheaper and will certainly get the job done. Custom router bits I try to avoid as they're a bit spendy and if you have a shaper....why bother?

You may also consider the type of work you may be doing in the future. If you think you'll run into more if these situations it can be very handy to have a corrugated, or Euro, (though ideally both), head lying around;)

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff, I'm fairly new to the shaper world. So far all the knives we've purchased have been solid chunks of steel and/or carbide from Grizzly and the like. Could you explain the difference between a corrugated head and a Euro head? I've seen the inserts for corrugated, so I have the basic concept. But can't seem to find a good explanation of the difference with the Euro. We do make lots of molding in small quantities and being able to just changes inserts would be a considerable savings.
J

[Jim Mackell]

Could you post a pic of the profile. Could easily be made by CNC if profile cannot be found

Here's the profile.
363853

[Mel Fulks]

I consider that a "bed mould", if you have been looking up crown, try term change. And if it has corners all rounded off the way the drawing is ...I would not use it.

[rudy de haas]

Shaper - if you have a power feeder; otherwise the router appraoch will be easier. What I find is that long thin pieces, like your moulding, are hard to keep straight and in place when hand fed to the shaper but a power feeder produces consistently good results even with long, thin, input.

As for cutters: they're painfully expensive - one solution I am told is great (but don't know, as I'm currently looking for a kit like http://www.kingcanada.com/detail/universal-shaper-cutterhead-kit/760 this one) is a kit that lets you set the knives to make your own profiles. Sometimes (I'm told) this means you have to make several passes, but if you're not getting paid on piece work then so what if it takes extra set-up time?

[Jim Mackell]

I consider that a "bed mould", if you have been looking up crown, try term change. And if it has corners all rounded off the way the drawing is ...I would not use it.

Never heard that term before, Mel. Thanks for that tip. Google does have some interesting and different results using that term. The drawing is my amateur attempt to show the "face" of the molding. It does have the appropriate shoulders to fit snugly into a 90 degree corner.

[Wayne Lomman]

Nothing wrong with the profile. It's your design so don't worry about the rest.

Having seen your sketch, this is best on a 4-sider but it will work with either router or spindle moulder. The difference will be quality of finish off the machine. You could actually do it in 2 stages - centre curve with the spindle, detailed edge with router or spindle. Cheaper cutters and more useful for other work.

Either way, it will machine much better if you start with wider stock, mould both edges and then finish to 1/2" thick accurately on the saw after moulding. This way you aren't trying to machine a floppy piece of timber and the sawn back face doesn't matter. (see, there are times to saw last!). The wider stock will much improve the router finish. Cheers

[Keith Hankins]

Well good luck if you don't find shoot me a note, If I had a piece I could do it on my CNC. Looks interesting.

[Jim Mackell]

Well good luck if you don't find shoot me a note, If I had a piece I could do it on my CNC. Looks interesting.

Keith, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're offering. Do what on your CNC?

[jack forsberg]

very easy to grind a set of pin knifes for that shape from stock . here is how i do it for short runs

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUKrieSlA0L/?taken-by=jackenglishmachines&hl=en

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff, I'm fairly new to the shaper world. So far all the knives we've purchased have been solid chunks of steel and/or carbide from Grizzly and the like. Could you explain the difference between a corrugated head and a Euro head? I've seen the inserts for corrugated, so I have the basic concept. But can't seem to find a good explanation of the difference with the Euro. We do make lots of molding in small quantities and being able to just changes inserts would be a considerable savings.
J

Hi Jim, if you take a look at the "other" shaper tooling thread going on right now you'll find some good info. Euro heads take smaller thinner knives than corrugated heads but they are indexed, so easy setup. They are also cheap, typically under $30 a set. They won't cut as tall or deeply as corrugated because they're so thin.....but b/c they're so thin you can grind them yourself on a basic bench grinder in a pinch. For shops doing a lot of one-off type jobs they are super handy to have around. If you look you can usually find a used set every so often on e-bay, though even the new sets aren't terribly expensive.

Oh and FWIW try using a good local knife shop or even an online one if there's not one near you. I bought a set of knives from the company you referenced and they were the worst quality steel I've ever seen. Really crude stuff, looked like they were cast rather than ground! It's good to have an actual knife shop anyway for when you need custom stuff, as good knife guys can help you out with advice;)

good luck,
JeffD

[jack forsberg]

Hi Jim, if you take a look at the "other" shaper tooling thread going on right now you'll find some good info. Euro heads take smaller thinner knives than corrugated heads but they are indexed, so easy setup. They are also cheap, typically under $30 a set. They won't cut as tall or deeply as corrugated because they're so thin.....but b/c they're so thin you can grind them yourself on a basic bench grinder in a pinch. For shops doing a lot of one-off type jobs they are super handy to have around. If you look you can usually find a used set every so often on e-bay, though even the new sets aren't terribly expensive.

Oh and FWIW try using a good local knife shop or even an online one if there's not one near you. I bought a set of knives from the company you referenced and they were the worst quality steel I've ever seen. Really crude stuff, looked like they were cast rather than ground! It's good to have an actual knife shop anyway for when you need custom stuff, as good knife guys can help you out with advice;)

good luck,
JeffD
Jeff i have talk to you a long time . We go back to OWWM I think going on 10 years . But i got to say you Know stuff on pin knifes . your talking trash . Pin come in 6MM that is thicker than corrugated . the route thickness in corrugated is thiner talk what you know

[brent stanley]

Jeff, I'm fairly new to the shaper world. So far all the knives we've purchased have been solid chunks of steel and/or carbide from Grizzly and the like. Could you explain the difference between a corrugated head and a Euro head? I've seen the inserts for corrugated, so I have the basic concept. But can't seem to find a good explanation of the difference with the Euro. We do make lots of molding in small quantities and being able to just changes inserts would be a considerable savings.
J

Hi Jim, i did a little video series on using a shaper in a small shop environment and talk about limiter heads a bunch. I called them all Euro blocks, but really the 40mm one is the euroblock, the rest are limiter heads. They work the same way, it's just a terminology thing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mylYGzZC2yU

B

[Jim Mackell]

Hi Jim, i did a little video series on using a shaper in a small shop environment and talk about limiter heads a bunch. I called them all Euro blocks, but really the 40mm one is the euroblock, the rest are limiter heads. They work the same way, it's just a terminology thing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mylYGzZC2yU

B
Thanks, Brent. Interesting series of videos.
Jim

[lowell holmes]

I don't call $90 for crown cutters (Eagle America) cheap. If you have a continuing need for it, it is reasonable. For one wall or ceiling it's not good. You still have to buy straight material to make your molding.

Woodworkers don't show much dollar sense when indulging themselves. :)

I have had a shaper since about year 1980. It has been years since I used it. I needed it when I was contracting, but since I don't build
boardrooms any more . . . . .

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff i have talk to you a long time . We go back to OWWM I think going on 10 years . But i got to say you Know stuff on pin knifes . your talking trash . Pin come in 6MM that is thicker than corrugated . the route thickness in corrugated is thiner talk what you know

Hi Jack, appreciate the response. What I know is the thickness of knives that come with my Euro heads...(that's what we're talking about here you know?) Are there other Euro heads out there that might carry thicker steel....maybe, I honestly don't know....but kinda irrelevant here. If you go and buy a typical Euro head, say Amana, Freud, etc. it's going to have the thinner knives. And these are the commonly available heads and the commonly available heads knives that go with them. I own three of them from three different companies that i've been using for years. They will NOT accept thicker steel, so anything to the contrary is as you would say "$hit". Secondly 6mm is not exactly what I'd call thick. Again, all different stuff available out there, but the knives I use for corrugated are usually 1/4" - 5/16" thick.... or closer to 6 - 8mm. So if your using corrugated that's thinner than that....it's seriously on the thin side!

So while I may not be an expert I know what I know and can type it coherently....most of the time;)

thanks for chiming in though and offering the poster useful advice:rolleyes:

JeffD

[Warren Lake]

since when is a 6 mm knife thicker than corrugated im still warming up to metric but my corrugated stuff is all 3/8". The euro head stuff I have and dont use is probably 1/4" at the most. even the serrated is probably thicker than 6 mm.

[jack forsberg]

Hi Jack, appreciate the response. What I know is the thickness of knives that come with my Euro heads...(that's what we're talking about here you know?) Are there other Euro heads out there that might carry thicker steel....maybe, I honestly don't know....but kinda irrelevant here. If you go and buy a typical Euro head, say Amana, Freud, etc. it's going to have the thinner knives. And these are the commonly available heads and the commonly available heads knives that go with them. I own three of them from three different companies that i've been using for years. They will NOT accept thicker steel, so anything to the contrary is as you would say "$hit". Secondly 6mm is not exactly what I'd call thick. Again, all different stuff available out there, but the knives I use for corrugated are usually 1/4" - 5/16" thick.... or closer to 6 - 8mm. So if your using corrugated that's thinner than that....it's seriously on the thin side!

So while I may not be an expert I know what I know and can type it coherently....most of the time;)

thanks for chiming in though and offering the poster useful advice:rolleyes:

JeffD
364125364126364127

Sorry for the off-color remarks Jeff I might've had a few beers in me :cool: idn't mean it to come across that way . I always appreciate what you have to say Jeff didn't mean you didn't know you were talking about because I know you do . When I determine the thickness of knives in corrugated it's at their route thickness not at the dimensional thickness . corrugations in the knife reduce the thickness so quarter-inch is really not a quarter-inch so it's thiner and 6 mm. The 5/16 is closer to 6 mill . What you talk about being comon are really only common in North America . There are at least 10 different types of heads with pin the spacing not of the common 25 mm spacing and 4 mm thick . Here I'm holding 6 mm 4 inches tall with 100 mm spacing .Twice as tall and deep as your common 50 mm 5.5 mm . there's also 45 heads So that knives don't have to reach out and are better supported . just a number of different heads to fit a number of spindles . Whitehill is a good supplier of a multitude of different types heads with pin location and stocked profiles well beyond the common selection of 40 mm . They've invested about $8 million in robotic machining and shipping of the knives is very inexpensive And quick . In Canada there is also no Duty . Depth of cut is equal to corrugated 5/16 . What's good about the pin knives is the limit to depth built-in to the blank so that people cannot reach further than they're supposed to which isn't always followed with corrugated . Also the steel available in these larger sizes is as good or better than some of the corrugated steel and you can see the surface finish on this four-inch blank is almost a mirror . Much better than what I've seen in the common North American grades which looks like it's been finished with the belt sander . Largest advantage is the head does not need to be removed from the spindle to change out knives and indexing is both vertical and projection . Accuracy of pin knives is remarkable . I made shoes for the wakin over under to hold the 6 mm and these can reach inch and a quarter depth of cut Safely further if you push it . For bigger stuff I'm probably just gonna go to square head 1/2 " tiped or as Warren is said The thicker corrugated but I rarely have to reach that deep in the my work . Whitehill do offer the 25mm common to you size .


here is the 45 head

364155

they also sell corrugated if that is what you like but you can get it with limiters .

364156

as for there production it is state of the art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efW6iAOIhQw

how accurate is the pin location on the common one you have talked about here. Not that bad at all . I put on in a setting stand and read it .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZolF7aCrdZo&lc=z13bgb0i4rewe1exv04cjx2gcun sftpz0ws0k

[Keith Hankins]

Sorry, was away. I could make the moldning if you can't find it. Cnc is great that way.

This vid is an example. Pictures may be better.

https://youtu.be/jodtTjyrkFY

[Jeff Duncan]

No worries Jack, I know you know your stuff.... but can come off a bit condescending after a few beers;)

So a couple things, whenever I post about tooling here it's going to be about what's commonly available in North America.... cause that's where most of us are:D I know there's a LOT of different types of tooling out there, much of what we, (or at least I), don't get into b/c in reality only pro shops are really using it as it's usually pretty spendy, or its older harder to find stuff, which there's probably not a lot of use talking about on a forum like this;)

Second, I watched a bit of your video on accuracy of the Euro heads. Now as a wood butcher I wasn't all that concerned with accuracy, but always good to have information! My determination really comes from the cut. Is it like glass requiring only a swipe with sandpaper to finish.... or is there chatter? With my Euro heads the cuts are as clean as I could want so accuracy as you mentioned is good enough. The reality is with what these heads cost the accuracy is pretty darned good. Are there more accurate heads out there....sure, but what do those cost:eek:

Now as far as thickness goes, if you go back and look the real point to my post was the thinner pin knives allow one to grind them on a bench grinder in a pinch. Even the thickest pins knives for the Euro heads we're talking about are easier to grind a simple profile than the thinnest corrugated stock. That stuff is just too thick to cut easily on a basic grinder.

So that everyone is on the same page...this is the type of head we're talking about, pretty much the same as what's on Jacks video...
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2100.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_2100.jpg.html)

And these are the knives, two thickness of pin knives next to a corrugated. You can see the mass of the corrugated is substantial making it tougher to grind. Of course that also makes it more suitable to taking bigger cuts. The picture isn't great but you can see the thinner pin knives are less than half the thickness of this corrugated knife stock. The thicker is a little tougher, but still significantly thinner than the corrugated. And you can see the wedge blocks really limit you to using thin steel, not going to get anything thicker in there without modifications. With a kit of knives you can "modify" a profile that you don't use and have custom cuts in an hour or two vs waiting a couple days for your corrugated to show up.
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2103.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_2103.jpg.html)

I don't mean to sound like a salesman for these heads, I just happen to really like them and the flexibility they provide. I use my corrugated heads frequently too. Though it's usually for bigger cuts or special profiles on jobs that will pay for them:D

good luck!
JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

Sorry, apparently Photobucket no longer supports putting photo's on websites without taking our money. I guess all good things come to an end! I'll look around for an alternative and try to get these photos posted.

JeffD

[Warren Lake]

HI Jeff

havent had time to post to either of these shaper post lots of thoughts though, geez im even mentioned on one :) im not much of a computer guy but if you want me to post those photos happy to do that for you, its pretty simple and easy once I got it figured out each site a bit different some of them using the same format.

[Bradley Gray]

W&H in stock profiles:

364229