Lie-Nielsen making the bronze 4 1/2 again.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I guess that guy trying to sell the "twin" 4 1/2 bronze won't be happy about this. Still too rich for my blood at $750. So when did this happen? I would have expected a press release and some email blasts. I didn't see anything.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/no4-12-bronze

[Pat Barry]

Curious that it goes for a little more than double the cost of a bronze number 4. Must be a limited production run

[Derek Cohen]

I think I paid $600 ($500?) for my Anniversary #4 1/2 ... 10 years ago? It is signed by TLN and has Cocobolo woodwork. The lever cap is inscribed, and it came with a numbered certificate (500 were made). It also came with a 50 degree frog (too low to do any good), which I replaced with a 55 degree frog (still too low and too hard to push). Now it has a 45 degree frog and works very well with the chipbreaker. The LN A2 blade was replaced by a Veritas PM-V11. Otherwise it is original :) Very nice plane for wider panels.

https://s19.postimg.org/taihv363n/image.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Edit: the price was $450 all those years ago

[Malcolm Schweizer]

At $500 I would bite and sell my iron 4 1/2, but at $750 I'm out. It does say it's a limited run, but I didn't see that it was a numbered limited run, so I guess it's limited to whenever they decide to stop making it. (?)

[Mike Henderson]

Wow, too rich for my blood. I have two Stanley Bailey 4 1/2 planes and they work fine for me.

Mike

[Rob Luter]

Nope. I'll stick with my Iron version.

[Patrick Chase]

The LN A2 blade was replaced by a Veritas PM-V11.

Which "family" of Veritas blade did you use in that L-N? Is it the "Stanley replacement (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=70671&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1)" or the one for the old non-custom 4-1/2 (http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=44751&cat=1,41182,41187&ap=1)? I suspect latter would make more sense as the Stanley replacement irons are a bit thin for an L-N plane...

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I should clarify my above comments- my reason for wanting bronze is 80% due to it not rusting, and 20% due to the weight- I like a heavy smoother. I care 0% about collectibility or bling. Okay- I do kind of like the look.

[Rob Luter]

I should clarify my above comments- my reason for wanting bronze is 80% due to it not rusting, and 20% due to the weight- I like a heavy smoother. I care 0% about collectibility or bling. Okay- I do kind of like the look.

These are the reasons I'd want one too, and was willing to pay a premium for bronze when I bought my 4 1/2. It's a 16% upcharge for bronze on #4. It wasn't available in bronze at the time though. The 231% upcharge they are asking now isn't reasonable at all. I don't care who signs the thing.

[Hasin Haroon]

I was planning on eventually getting one LN plane. I'm well stocked for Veritas BU/BD & Custom planes and don't expect the LN would give me anything these planes don't but I wanted one just for the heck of it. I wanted a 4 1/2, but the bronze aesthetic was pushing me towards the 4, so I was hoping they'd offer a bronze 4 1/2. At that price I no longer want a bronze 4 1/2, lol.

[Todd Stock]

A bronze 4-1/2, but no iron 5-1/4? Mmm...

[Patrick Chase]

A bronze 4-1/2, but no iron 5-1/4? Mmm...

The last I heard you could still special-order the iron 5-1/4.

[steven c newman]

Happy with the two I have in the shop..
363802
Except that they are both over 70 years old....and doing just fine....Millers Falls No.11, type 2.....the other is a Type 1

[Todd Stock]

Special order is usually Tom waiting to get enough orders in for the order to go to the foundry...never been good about waiting!

[Paul K. Johnson]

I was choosing a smoother yesterday (Thurs) and came across this one when I visited the LN site. No way I would buy it at that price but I really like the idea of bronze body planes. I was deciding between the bronze LN #4 and one of the Veritas smoothers. I really had no idea which I wanted and almost posted a thread here but I'm sure there have been a ton of threads by people asking which smoother to buy and then there will be pros and cons of both and ultimately it's whatever the poster decides (or buy them all!!!!). So I got the Veritas bevel-up. Hopefully I made a good decision.

This is one pretty plane though.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I was choosing a smoother yesterday (Thurs) and came across this one when I visited the LN site. No way I would buy it at that price but I really like the idea of bronze body planes. I was deciding between the bronze LN #4 and one of the Veritas smoothers. I really had no idea which I wanted and almost posted a thread here but I'm sure there have been a ton of threads by people asking which smoother to buy and then there will be pros and cons of both and ultimately it's whatever the poster decides (or buy them all!!!!). So I got the Veritas bevel-up. Hopefully I made a good decision.

This is one pretty plane though.

You did good. The bevel up smoother gives you lots of options with bevel angles. It was one of my first new planes. Probably I reach more for my LN 4 bronze or 4 1/2 iron, but the Veritas bevel up gets plenty of use as well.

My 4 1/2 rusted because I put it in a drawer "temporarily" and "temporarily" became a few months without coating it like I usually do. No worries. I am glad it happened so that I am not all worried about keeping it pretty. Living in the tropics, I choose bronze whenever available, but I cannot justify double the price for this one. Should you get a LN plane, I highly recommend the No. 4 bronze.

[Patrick Chase]

You did good. The bevel up smoother gives you lots of options with bevel angles. It was one of my first new planes. Probably I reach more for my LN 4 bronze or 4 1/2 iron, but the Veritas bevel up gets plenty of use as well.

My 4 1/2 rusted because I put it in a drawer "temporarily" and "temporarily" became a few months without coating it like I usually do. No worries. I am glad it happened so that I am not all worried about keeping it pretty. Living in the tropics, I choose bronze whenever available, but I cannot justify double the price for this one. Should you get a LN plane, I highly recommend the No. 4 bronze.

The Veritas bevel-up is about as fire-and-forget as they come. If the blade is sharp and beveled at an appropriate angle then it will work. If you got the 2-1/4" wide bevel-up smoother, then that comes with a 38 deg blade (50 deg total cutting angle) that will work nicely for most things.

You could get somewhat better performance on difficult woods with a BD plane and tightly-set cap iron, but you have to learn some additional skills for that (i.e. not-so-fire-and-forget). A *lot* of us started out with BU smoothers.

[Mike Brady]

Well I see that the production run of twenty four bronze 4-1/2's is just about sold out. None of those guys must have read Warren M's posts.

[lowell holmes]

I had a Lie-Nielsen iron 4 1/2, I liked it. It was a good plane.
I went to a woodworking show and came home with a Veritas bevel up smoother.
A short time later, I sold the 4 1/2.

[Mike Brady]

Sounds like you are suggesting that the BU smoother is a replacement for the BD. I'm sure you will get an argument on that one.:rolleyes:

[lowell holmes]

Let's see, I have a #3 Bailey, 5 1/2 Bailey, 604, 605, 607 Bedrocks, and a #6 Bailey.

I'm not substituting anything. They ALL produce translucent shavings.

The BU smoother does things the other planes will not do.

What is there to argue about? The #3 is the plane I am most likely to grab for small area smoothing. It is a Canadian made plane.

[William Fretwell]

Bronze may not 'rust' but I've seen comments here about bronze planes going black in some climates and discolouring the wood.
The idea of such a heavy smoother is appealing but you can buy two excellent planes for the same money. As I've never been a collector just a user I feel no anguish!
I am going to replace three planes after the summer, so I am looking.

[Patrick Chase]

Bronze may not 'rust' but I've seen comments here about bronze planes going black in some climates and discolouring the wood.

That's true, but with the caveat that it's a very thin surface layer (a patina) that is easily removed. The exception is if the discoloring is caused by presence of chlorides, in which case it can penetrate and ultimately destroy the tool. So don't measure out the chlorine for your pool on your workbench :-).

For a really good time, try wrapping a bronze tool in VCI paper (the stuff you use to prevent corrosion of ferrous metals). Bright green snail-trails add a certain je ne sais quoi to the work...

[steven c newman]

Overweight, overpriced, and over hyped. My monthly rent cost less...for a simple smooth plane? would be a surefire way to be made a Single person...L-N paying for the Divorce payments, too?

Bronze ruled the world...until swords made from Iron came along.....3,000 yrs ago? It does make fine statues until they turn green.....

[Prashun Patel]

Overweight, overpriced, and over hyped.

For you, maybe. For me, not.
I like my #4 Bronze.
It's worth every penny I paid for it.
I'm not the most experienced plane user, but I am experienced enough to know that the weight is perfect, the hype is well-placed, and the price was (begrudgingly) worth the divorce.

I have successfully set up several smoothing planes of different styles, but this one seems easier to set up perfectly than the others I own. I can clearly see that other planes can be made to work as well - maybe even better. But the effort to get a plane in perfect condition shouldn't be forgotten by the experienced people here; that can be a daunting task even for an intermediate user. The nice thing about the Veritas and LN planes (new) is that they do perform simply and reliably out of the box. Providing a model for perfect performance continues to be a valuable in my education to fixing and tuning other planes.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm holding out for the Depleted Uranium Woodpecker Special One-Time Buy plane. It's not just for tank armor and things that penetrate tank armor any more. Why settle for a material with a density of ~8 g/cc when you can go all the way to 19 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium)?

Seriously, I think we've beaten this into the ground. We're arguing about subjective preferences here, and we're not going to all agree.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm holding out for the Depleted Uranium Woodpecker Special One-Time Buy plane. It's not just for tank armor and things that penetrate tank armor any more. Why settle for a material with a density of ~8 g/cc when you can go all the way to 19 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium)?

Sputter. Spit. Gulp. Coffee all over the monitor again! (Second time this week!)

[Todd Stock]

I just had to show this thread to my female student...she mentioned that a good upper body workout is unlikely to do any of us any harm, and the chicks dig it. Just saying...

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I'm holding out for the Depleted Uranium Woodpecker Special One-Time Buy plane. It's not just for tank armor and things that penetrate tank armor any more. Why settle for a material with a density of ~8 g/cc when you can go all the way to 19 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium)?

Seriously, I think we've beaten this into the ground. We're arguing about subjective preferences here, and we're not going to all agree.

Would the woodpecker depleted uranium plane be red anodized? Can you anodize depleted uranium? Can it be ordered in weapons grade uranium? I might need that extra power for some tough grain.

[Patrick Chase]

Would the woodpecker depleted uranium plane be red anodized? Can you anodize depleted uranium? Can it be ordered in weapons grade uranium? I might need that extra power for some tough grain.

Technically speaking Depleted Uranium (DU) is more or less the opposite of "weapons-grade Uranium", even though both are used in very different sorts of weapons. Specifically, one the two ways of making DU is to scoop up the leftovers from the enrichment process that creates Stuff That Goes Boom In A Huge Way (tm).

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

EDIT: Now that I think about it I seem to recall that DU is also used in thermonuclear weapons, in their tampers. You have either Plutonium or "weapons-grade" enriched Uranium in the fissile primary, Lithium Deuteride in a fusion secondary that's ignited by the primary, and then finally DU in the tamper which is ignited by the secondary. IIRC much of the yield and almost all of the fallout comes from that tamper. Pleasant thoughts...

[steven c newman]

Maybe a layered approach to casting a plane's base....two layers, and fill with high grade sand in-between? Like on the M-1 Abrams? Then call it the "Norm" plane?

[Frederick Skelly]

We keep talkin' about this stuff and Patrick and Malcolm are gonna get visits from the men in blacked-out Suburbans! :D:D:D

[Malcolm Schweizer]

We keep talkin' about this stuff and Patrick and Malcolm are gonna get visits from the men in blacked-out Suburbans! :D:D:D

I see nothing- I know nothing...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzsWxPLIOo

[Patrick Chase]

We keep talkin' about this stuff and Patrick and Malcolm are gonna get visits from the men in blacked-out Suburbans! :D:D:D

Everything I brought up is public knowledge. I have a close relative who worked at a national lab on matters closely related to nuke design, and I've been acquainted with people who I'm pretty sure were weapons designers, but I don't know anything I shouldn't (that I know of).

[William Fretwell]

Seven shakes of a lambs tail. The secondary can generate whatever you need really, or almost 3 times what you expect as the USA found out the hard way. Most of the fall out comes from detonation too close to the ground.

[Patrick Chase]

Seven shakes of a lambs tail. The secondary can generate whatever you need really, or almost 3 times what you expect as the USA found out the hard way. Most of the fall out comes from detonation too close to the ground.

As late as the 1990s weapons designers still referred to Castle Bravo as "the one that overachieved" in casual conversation.

IIRC analysis of the byproducts in the fallout is what publicly revealed that the bulk of Castle Bravo's yield had come from fast fission of the Uranium tamper. The yield overshoot was caused by ignoring the fact that Li7 deuteride would breed Tritium in situ, thereby generating more neutrons and inducing more fission than expected in the tamper.

There were "clean" weapons with inert tampers that got most of their yield from fusion, such as the Soviet "Tsar Bomba" and some US variants, but those yielded something like a third of what they would have with a Uranium tamper.

Waaaayyyy off topic now.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

By the way, since it is about bronze body plane, what are the requirements for plane body material? And why bronze or cast iron? What about stainless steel or other metals/alloys?

Aluminium was tested and discarded. Would depleted uranium qualify? What color would it give to the wood when marring it? :)

[Patrick Chase]

By the way, since it is about bronze body plane, what are the requirements for plane body material? And why bronze or cast iron? What about stainless steel or other metals/alloys?

Steel has been done (http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm#nums4).

Let's see, I think that from a functional perspective we'd want non-toxic, non-radioactive, inexpensive, easily formed/machined, reasonably-corrosion-resistant and non-reactive, etc.

DU loses big on the first 4, especially toxicity. It's fairly nasty stuff.

[Jim Koepke]

Aluminium was tested and discarded. Would depleted uranium qualify? What color would it give to the wood when marring it? :)

Kind of a pastel green glow?

jtk

[Tom Stenzel]

It's not quite stainless steel but how about high nickel iron:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=61963&cat=1,41182,48942

But that's not stainless steel. You really want a stainless steel plane?

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/planes/block-planes/hp-9-block-plane/hp-9-dual-angle-block-plane.html

Been there but didn't done that as I didn't get one. Or get the T-shirt for that matter.

-Tom

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Kind of a pastel green glow?

According to chemical properties, it will rust even better and will leave almost black marks. It doesn't glow so much until critical mass accumulates in critical shape :)


On the other hand, I've heard that cast steel is more flexible than cast iron or cast ductile iron. Means that the plane might become twisted or bend over time. In other words, why cast (ductile) iron?

Price of a new hand plane is nearly approaching price of silver of the same weight, and some infills are half-golden :)

[steven c newman]

Wonder IF Stanley ever made an A4-1/2 plane? They had the A4, and A5, and A6.....Hmmm...

Maybe someone can strip the armour plate off the old Battleships in Bikini Lagoon.....and mill planes out of billets of the stuff... Some of it was almost 16" thick.....maybe go for the quarter sawn stuff?

[Patrick Chase]

Maybe someone can strip the armour plate off the old Battleships in Bikini Lagoon.....and mill planes out of billets of the stuff... Some of it was almost 16" thick.....maybe go for the quarter sawn stuff?

People usually do that with the German WWI High Seas Fleet at Scapa Flow, particularly when they need steel shielding that doesn't emit radiation of its own (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel).

[Allen Jordan]

I think I paid $600 ($500?) for my Anniversary #4 1/2 ... 10 years ago? It is signed by TLN and has Cocobolo woodwork. The lever cap is inscribed, and it came with a numbered certificate (500 were made). It also came with a 50 degree frog (too low to do any good), which I replaced with a 55 degree frog (still too low and too hard to push). Now it has a 45 degree frog and works very well with the chipbreaker. The LN A2 blade was replaced by a Veritas PM-V11. Otherwise it is original :) Very nice plane for wider panels.



Regards from Perth

Derek

Edit: the price was $450 all those years ago

Derek, which of the pm-v11 blades did you buy? I wasn't aware LV stocked blades that would fit the LN bench planes.

[Patrick Chase]

Derek, which of the pm-v11 blades did you buy? I wasn't aware LV stocked blades that would fit the LN bench planes.

The 2" and 2-3/8" blades from their old non-custom bench plane line would probably work in LN bench planes of those widths (everything but 1-3 and 8). I've never tried it as I don't have any of those LN planes (I have the 2, 3, and 8. My 4-7 planes are LV).

LV's line of Stanley replacement blades also work in L-N planes, though they're a bit thinner than the original blade at 0.100". I've used an LV 1-3/4" Stanley replacement blade in an L-N 3 without trouble.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

It's not quite stainless steel but how about high nickel iron:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=61963&cat=1,41182,48942



This is one high-end plane that I will likely one day spring for solely because it just looks so awesome. Yes- hate me for saying that- I do. I hate that I would ever buy a tool because it looks cool, but this one is the exception. It should win an award for functional design. I would buy it out of appreciation for the design... But mark my words- It wouldn't just sit on the shelf. I would use it. The less expensive iron version is a sweet plane. It fits the hand perfectly. Every time I get a bonus, I buy something frivolous or some expensive tool I always wanted. This is on the short list, but with this bonus I am getting a Rikon bandsaw that I badly need. Sorry, I kill a few electrons now and then.

[Patrick Chase]

This is one high-end plane that I will likely one day spring for solely because it just looks so awesome. Yes- hate me for saying that- I do. I hate that I would ever buy a tool because it looks cool, but this one is the exception. It should win an award for functional design. I would buy it out of appreciation for the design... But mark my words- It wouldn't just sit on the shelf. I would use it. The less expensive iron version is a sweet plane. It fits the hand perfectly. Every time I get a bonus, I buy something frivolous or some expensive tool I always wanted. This is on the short list, but with this bonus I am getting a Rikon bandsaw that I badly need. Sorry, I kill a few electrons now and then.

I actually think that the DX60 and NX60 are pretty reasonable given their likely manufacturing cost. Those are very finely machined and smooth-operating planes, that handle like a dream. They're not enough to get me to upgrade from my old-style Veritas block planes, but at the same time I think that most of the added cost contributes to usability in one way or another (the big exception being the overkill-for-a-block-plane finish and flatness specs).

[Tom Stenzel]

This is one high-end plane that I will likely one day spring for solely because it just looks so awesome. Yes- hate me for saying that- I do. I hate that I would ever buy a tool because it looks cool, but this one is the exception.

I can't be the hater on that. The one problem with the plane is it looks like the Indy racer of planes. If I can't push it at 190 mph or better then I shouldn't bother with it! My arms get tired just looking at it.

The inner geek in me just finds the Bridge City plane just so out there I would like to have one of those too. Can't imagine using it but if I had a man cave with an unlimited decorating budget- both planes would likely show up. But there's no cave no budget. Guess I'll stick to my Miller Falls #16.

-Tom