Gfcis to protect kitchen

[stevo wis]

HI,
My son just bought a 30 year old house, and while the bathrooms have a gfci circuit, the four outlets and one island outlet do not have any gfci receptacles.
All five of those outlets are on a single breaker though the island may have a separate wire running to the breaker.

1. is a single gfci adequate to protect all four (or five) outlets as long as it is installed first from the service, then on to the others?
2. if there is a second wire coming from the breaker to handle the island, would another gfci between the service and island handle that?
3. Would it be simpler to just install a gfci breaker?

thanks,
Stevo

[stevo wis]

Sorry, all outlets mentioned are in the kitchen.

[Bruce King]

Each circuit can have a GFCI device at the panel or at the first outlet in the circuit.
The outlets downstream will be protected as long as everything is wired correctly.

You should have this age house updated to include:
Two 20 amp circuits for counter outlets (small appliance circuits).

You can alternate A,B,A,B etc or have one circuit feeding one area and the other circuit going to the other area.
Since the house is older you likely have worn out receptacles so new outlets are needed.
If you are replacing them its easy during that work to figure out which one is the first one in the circuit and install a GFCI outlet there.
Its also common to find outlets with the hot and neutral backwards or loose grounds/wires so be careful.

In some cases/areas you would be required to upgrade to the newest codes when doing certain work.

[Jim Becker]

One per circuit...most kitchens have at least two circuits, alternating locations so that two higher power appliances can run at the same time without issue. The challenge with retrofit is most often figuring out which outlet is the first one on the feed from the breaker, but you can use a GFCI breaker instead of changing out an outlet if need be. That's functionally more of a pain for a kitchen because you have to go all the way to the panel to reset it if it triggers.

[John K Jordan]

Also, from a quick price check it looks like GFCI breakers are much more expensive than GFCI receptacles.

Regardless of who does the wiring, I recommend testing the result with a receptacle tester to check for the correct wiring and testing the GFCI trigger. You can get one at Home Depot or elsewhere, for example, I use one like this:
363715
https://www.amazon.com/Bastex-Tester-Receptacle-Indications-Electric/dp/B071FVB35Q

When moving into a new place, this would be handy to check all the receptacles in the house to avoid unpleasant surprises.

I have been surprised at the mistakes even "professional" electricians have made. This house, for instance, had a 4-way switch wired incorrectly and the previous owners evidently simply didn't use it. Another time an electrician made a wiring mistake in a 480v receptacle in our optics lab putting a hot on a ground terminal!

JKJ

[Wade Lippman]

HI,
My son just bought a 30 year old house, and while the bathrooms have a gfci circuit, the four outlets and one island outlet do not have any gfci receptacles.
All five of those outlets are on a single breaker though the island may have a separate wire running to the breaker.

1. is a single gfci adequate to protect all four (or five) outlets as long as it is installed first from the service, then on to the others?


Yes, that is fine.


2. if there is a second wire coming from the breaker to handle the island, would another gfci between the service and island handle that?

Yes


3. Would it be simpler to just install a gfci breaker?
[QUOTE]
Perhaps, but they are more expensive, can sometimes take up too much room in your panel, and are a nuisance to reset.


Current code is at least 2 20a circuits in your kitchen. Older homes don't have that and you have no obligation to bring it up to that. Depending on what you do in your kitchen you might want to, but people have lived for years without it. If the island is on a separate wire, it would be easy enough to put it on a separate breaker. If it is on a 14 gauge, don't put a 20a breaker though!

If you have two wires going to a breaker and it is not approved for 2 wires, it IS a code violation that must be fixed.

[Wade Lippman]

I have been surprised at the mistakes even "professional" electricians have made. This house, for instance, had a 4-way switch wired incorrectly and the previous owners evidently simply didn't use it. Another time an electrician made a wiring mistake in a 480v receptacle in our optics lab putting a hot on a ground terminal!

JKJ

My old house had both sides of a multiwire circuit on the same leg, 3 20a heaters on #12 going to a 50a breaker, and 30a water heater on #12. Amazing it never burned down.

[John K Jordan]

My old house had both sides of a multiwire circuit on the same leg, 3 20a heaters on #12 going to a 50a breaker, and 30a water heater on #12. Amazing it never burned down.

I'm not surprised! I've done wiring in a children's camp in the middle of Mexico including a large building with an auditorium, kitchen, dining room, and sleeping quarters. I found a water heater and more fed by at least 100' of #14 romex in the attic on a 50 amp breaker. The romex was pretty warm to the touch. There were no electrical supplies available within a day's drive. It was two years before I could get back with wire and breakers and I almost expected it to have burned down by then.

JKJ

[Brian Elfert]

Legally, most areas would require an electrical permit even to just put GFCIs in the kitchen. If the area is under 2014 NEC then arc fault breakers would need to be added when adding GFCIs. Some brands of breakers a combination arc fault / GFI breaker is not much more than an arc fault breaker alone. Generally, the only time code would require upgrading to two 20 amp circuits in the kitchen would be if the walls are opened up.

Now, most people would just do this work without a permit and only put in the GFCIs and not the arc fault breakers. I pull electrical permits for major electrical work I do in my house, but not for a simple installation of a GFCI.

[Stan Calow]

The GFCI circuits in our bathrooms also cover two outdoor outlets, and one kitchen circuit covers a garage outlet as well.

[Wade Lippman]

Legally, most areas would require an electrical permit even to just put GFCIs in the kitchen. If the area is under 2014 NEC then arc fault breakers would need to be added when adding GFCIs. Some brands of breakers a combination arc fault / GFI breaker is not much more than an arc fault breaker alone. Generally, the only time code would require upgrading to two 20 amp circuits in the kitchen would be if the walls are opened up.

Now, most people would just do this work without a permit and only put in the GFCIs and not the arc fault breakers. I pull electrical permits for major electrical work I do in my house, but not for a simple installation of a GFCI.

Maybe where you are, but not around here. I put a mudroom in my garage that included a new electric circuit. The contractor, a former local building inspector, got a permit for it because I wanted it, but he assured me it wasn't necessary. The inspector who came out to look at it agreed it wasn't necessary. It wasn't expensive and I feel better knowing things won't get balled up when I sell the house.

[Jim Becker]

No permit required here for this kind of work, although certain larger jobs do require inspections. Plumbing, however... ;)

[Brian Elfert]

Maybe where you are, but not around here. I put a mudroom in my garage that included a new electric circuit. The contractor, a former local building inspector, got a permit for it because I wanted it, but he assured me it wasn't necessary. The inspector who came out to look at it agreed it wasn't necessary. It wasn't expensive and I feel better knowing things won't get balled up when I sell the house.

You may be in one of the areas where permits are not required. I wonder if you went to the city or county if they would say a permit is required, or not. I think that any electrical work in the state of Minnesota is supposed to have a permit, but there is plenty done without permits.