Hand Cranked Grinder Questions

[william sympson]

I'm looking to draw on your experiences with hand cranked grinders and will appreciate your feedback. I know I can buy a cheap electric unit at a box store for less than $100 but I like the versatility and freedom of the hand cranked approach.

I've looked around quite a bit for a hand cranked grinder and have seemed to settle on the Goodell Pratt #485 grinder as a robust grinder that appears to meet all the needs. Luther also made some interesting
models but I don’t know how valuable some of those features would be. Most of the used grinders I've handled are worn out.

I think a 3/4" or 1" arbor with up to an 8" wheel capacity along with a robust tool rest and maybe even a foot pedal option would be nice in a newly manufactured unit. I found two models on Amazon but the reviews would indicate that they're not lifetime type tools that are not up to the task.

I am curious to know what your favorite hand cranked grinder is and why?

If someone were to build a new unit modeled on the GP #485 (or your favorite model), what would you change and why? What price point would you be comfortable with?

[Jim Koepke]

What price point would you be comfortable with?

My comfortable price point turned out to be $2. That is when one came home with me.

It is doubtful one will find a modern manufacturer willing to go out on a limb to make a modern hand/foot powered grinder.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

You appear to know a lot more about the options then I do. My price point was free. The wheel was worn out, and everything was full of dried up grease, but the mechanism itself was fine. Somebody had tried to take it apart and lost some of the screws, so the two parts of the housing would wobble against each other, and the shaft would not spin smoothly. I replaced the screws, replaced the wheel, set it up with a tool rest, and it does what I need it to do. It is not quick, but it works fine.

When I had it apart I could not find a name on it. It looks like it may have had a name painted on the housing at one point, but it is no longer legible.

The shaft on mine was 3/8, and it took a 6" wheel, which is about all it can handle. The wheel came with plastic bushings that go down to 1/2, and after looking around a bit, I got a brass one from the hardware store to go down from 1/2 to 3/8. I don not have a "grinder station." I just mounted it on a board, which I stick in the vice. When I am done, it goes back on a shelf.


363463363464

[bridger berdel]

I'd like spiral cut gears. The plain cut gears on mine are really loud.

[george wilson]

Personally,I hate those old grinders. That's all they had on those old light houses(and WOODEN planes,too),when I was a young boy. I never got any good trying to grind holding a tool with one hand. But,I was not even in school yet when I started trying to make things.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm with George here.

Think carefully on what you want to get out of a grinder. I hollow grind all my blades. I only have to do every now-and-then ... really infrequently ... because the hollow grind I add to the bevel is so good. What makes it good? It is clean, smooth walled and even. I do not even need a 1000 grit stone to sharpen until I am re-sharpening for the 3rd or 4th time. I can easily get several sharpenings out of a single grind. Generally more.

Look at this freshly sharpened blade (that is 0.5 micron). Look at the hollow grind ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp_html_71b2c2d0.jpg


That was made on a half-speed grinder and an 8" 180 grit CBN wheel.

You will not achieve that level of grind with a wobbling white wheel on a hand powered grinder. I have yet to find one that does not wobble. You have no idea how smoothly a CBN wheel rotates, and how easy it is to use. It grinds cool. I would take odds that you will burn a blade quicker on a hand powered affair with a white wheel!

Rethink your objective.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

happen to know where a 24" wheeled with dual pedals to power it is at.....Bargain Basement price? $200......some assembly required. Antique Mall here in town has it. A tad rusty...

Afraid mine is rather small...
363501
6" wheel, variable speed. Has two spots to add oil to the bearings. Can be clamped anywhere.

[Pat Barry]

happen to know where a 24" wheeled with dual pedals to power it is at.....Bargain Basement price? $200......some assembly required. Antique Mall here in town has it. A tad rusty...

Afraid mine is rather small...
363501
6" wheel, variable speed. Has two spots to add oil to the bearings. Can be clamped anywhere.
I like the variable speed feature!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If your objective is to spend whatever it takes to reach a perfect edge, as fast as humanly possible, regardless of expense, that is one thing. CBN, diamonds, lasers, quantum entangled bits or whatever may be the way to go. If you just want the ability to reshape an edge much faster than is possible with stones, a hand cranked grinder will work. The tool rest helps a lot in keeping things square while grinding one handed. I think the tool rest was about $30, the wheel was another $30. The resulting edge is hollow ground.

I don't nick a blade or reshape the bevel frequently enough to want to spend $250 on a decent grinder and CBN wheel. For that money I can think of a lot of other tools I would rather buy. Plus, I like being able to pull it out of the vise, chuck it on a shelf, and have it out of the way until next time. If I had a machine shop I am sure I would feel differently.

Finally, it is good to have things the kids can do to help out. You may have hated it George, but my kids for some reason love turning it. Probably because they don't have to.

ETA: To each their own. If CBN or whatever makes you happy, you should buy them by the truckload. Just explaining why it works for me.

[william sympson]

Gentlemen, I appreciate the input - spiral cut gears, no wobble, variable speed. Nicholas, I'm not sure you can get a really good electric grinder for $250. I'm like you and Steven, I want one that I can move to shelf when not in use rather than taking up bench/floor space. I think the wheel type is up to each user... gray, white, blue, pink, CBN...no skin off my nose what someone chooses to use.

R/
William

[Mel Fulks]

I see it pretty much same way as Nicholas. Ebay always has those human powered grinders pretty cheap and I use one at home on chisels. For years in employment I ground shaper cutters on standard white wheels,CBN wheels certainly would have been a big help removing a lot of metal and they are wonderful things. The modern standard of perfectly straight hollow ground chisels is, I believe, quite different from what many good workmen used in the past.

[Derek Cohen]

True Mel, the workmen of the past did not have the advanced methods available today. The CBN wheel is a game changer, making sharpening considerably easier.

A friend of mine has a CBN wheel on a hand grinder, and he swears by the improvement.

My earlier comments about the set up I use were to highlight the need for a hand grinder that does not rock. I think one needs to buy a new one. All the vintage ones I have used and owned all were almost unusable. If the aim is to sharpen with the least effort, I'd aim for a power set up.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Maybe it is more about the FEEL of the grinder doing it's job. Seems to be a little quieter with the handcranked ones. The hand cranked one I have does NOT "rock", must not have been abused? I use both the hand crank and an OLD Sears Craftsman 6" electric grinder...mainly for the wire wheel on the other end of the shaft.

never have been in a hurry to get things sharpened up, sometimes, all there is to do in the shop that day is to sit and sharpen things...usually after a project has been completed, and out of the shop. I can just spend the day hiding out in the shop, getting the edged tools ready for the next job. Not on a time clock, anyway.....just a peaceful way to pass the time....cheaper than the local Pub,eh?

IF my hand cranked grinder starts making noise..usually a sign I need a few drops of oil in the bearings....

[Jim Koepke]

My hand crank grinder mostly is used for grinding the mushrooms off of old wedges and orphaned socket chisels.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

I once bought one of those old large sandstone grinding wheels on a steel pedal power stand. Extremely slow....dashed all the great perceptions I had gotten from old movies. Just don't want to give anyone an excuse for not making something now and upgrading later!

[george wilson]

EGAD!!!!MEL!!! We HAD those large old 24" diameter SANDSTONE(Means too soft to sharpen a stick of butter! Wheels all over the museum. I tried getting boys in the crowd to turn my antique plane iron. This went on for 3 hours and I STILL got nearly nowhere!

They did have leather covered "Cutlers" grinding wheels in the 18th. C. You shoved ground emery into the leather . I think one of those would have been more effective than those WAY TOO FINE sandstone wheels. The purchasing secretary paid I think $300.00 each to have those custom made. They must have had coarser sandstone wheels to choose from 200 years ago. Hard natural abrasives were available too.

I have an 18" sandstone grinding wheel,never used in my shop. Cut in the civil War era. I ought to set it up and see if it grinds better. Too much trouble making a water box,spindles,cranks,etc.. The old grinding wheels and a lot of hand forged hardware were found in the basement of a very old hardware store that burned in Norfolk many years ago. People were buying them to stick at the ends of their driveways!. A bit SMALL for that use!

[bridger berdel]

To me the Main thing that a hand crank grinder can do that a powered grinder can't is turn very slow. Yesterday I sharpened a 1/16" drill bit on the hand cranked grinder. I wouldn't even try that at 1750 rpm.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I've got a set up similar to Nicholas. Inherited an unmarked grinder from my dad, who was a master woodworker and kept his tools in perfect working condition. It's clamped to the right corner of my sharpening station, I added a Veritas tool rest and a Norton 6" 60 grit white wheel. Zero wobble. I was recently tempted by a Baldor on Craigslist for $200, but passed as I do what Steven does and touch up my tools on water stones after most projects.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,George. That purchase was just a whim, as I've always had access to employer grinders. But seeing how slow the sandstone is makes it easy to see why a coarse Washita hone was such a great thing, you could hone faster than you could grind!

[Jim Ritter]

Mountain Top Joiners Shop made himself just what you are talking about. Scroll down past the tool box.

http://www.mountaintopjoinersshop.com/tools---sundries.html


Jim

[Dave Lehnert]

I found a Luther Hummer once on vacation in an antique shop for $100.
http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/advert/aw67.htm

If that thing would have been closer to home it would be in my shop right now. But as luck would have it I had the car and was packed full of luggage and people.

I often thought it would be a great project for Shop Notes/ Woodsmith magazine.

Or maybe as a project kit from a company like Lee Valley. The stand could be made out of wood in the shop.

[Patrick Chase]

To me the Main thing that a hand crank grinder can do that a powered grinder can't is turn very slow. Yesterday I sharpened a 1/16" drill bit on the hand cranked grinder. I wouldn't even try that at 1750 rpm.

Low-speed grinders like Tormeks work well for that (and their drill-bit jig is pretty nice, provided you're ok with the 4-facet tip).

[john zulu]

True Mel, the workmen of the past did not have the advanced methods available today. The CBN wheel is a game changer, making sharpening considerably easier.

A friend of mine has a CBN wheel on a hand grinder, and he swears by the improvement.

My earlier comments about the set up I use were to highlight the need for a hand grinder that does not rock. I think one needs to buy a new one. All the vintage ones I have used and owned all were almost unusable. If the aim is to sharpen with the least effort, I'd aim for a power set up.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I asked for CBN in Malaysia. Crazily expensive.

[george wilson]

When drills get very small,I just use an India bench stone., I can sharpen a #80 stone with 4x drugstore glasses on. In fact,in the instrument shop,I sharpened even 1/4" drills with an India stone.

The way I do it is hold the stone vertically and present the drill to it at the angle it is supposed to be sharpened at. I guess that's the hard part,but it is do- able if you are good at estimating angles. I rotate the drill to hone it's edge to the right clearance. Then,moving the stone up and down,I hone the first cutting edge. Then,rotate the drill 180º and repeat. Make sure the cutting edges meet in the center of the drill,or it will drill an oversize hole.

One Sunday,when I was drilling all those #80 holes around a die for coining heart brooches,I had ONE #80 on hand. I broke it FIVE times that day and was able to keep on using it anyway. THAT is the ultimate in a SLOW grinder.Try it. It will work easily on a 1/16" drill. Develop skills like this one,and you won't have to wait for orders of tools to come in when you are really into a piece of work.

Heres the bunch of holes I was drilling. I purposely took a carefully ground center punch,and went around the heart,carefully enlarging the holes in the fatter part of the heart shape. That added a nicer touch to the design(If anyone else ever noticed it!)They are SLIGHT.

There's a finished heart and earrings made in 22 Karat gold. The earrings were just smaller pieces of gold laid over the center area of the heart,COINED,and sawn to shape accurately just beyond the holes with a jeweler's saw. My wife added the pearls. Our Master Engraver,who really was a master! hand engraved the initials. He's still around,retired like the rest of us old dogs.

The first picture,before you click on it,is about the true size of the heart. Take out a quarter and lay it over the quarter in the picture. Actually,if you don't have a 22" screen,I don't know if that would work.

Those cross hatched centers in the hearts are an 18th. C. authentic touch. The Dutch especially did that a lot. Now,I've forgotten how I got the lines of the hatching so accurately spaced. This is small work!

I made these as a retirement gift for my purchasing secretary,who I know I put to a lot of work during my years there. Finally,they gave us credit cards,and things got easier. Just don't go over budget, or abuse the privilidge!

[Pat Barry]

If I would happen to find one of those hand crank units lying around a flea market for $10 I'd probably buy it, otherwise for the same price, I'd go with the electric grinder.

[Mark AJ Allen]

I wouldn't use a hand grinder to replace any of my sharpening kit but with a felt wheel loaded with green stuff, I appreciate the control I have to put that final touch on the edge. Also allows for a fast touch up while working. A well appreciated tool for doing carving gouges.