Shaper cutters

[Christopher Hedges]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of euro block style cutters vs fixed wing cutters?

[Cary Falk]

PRO:
Each set of knives is ~$20.
Knives are HSS so they can be touched up with a stone or scary sharp method
Custom ground knives would be relatively inexpensive.


CON:
Initial cost of the head is around $130
Knives are not carbide so they won't last as long.

Those are off the top of my head. I am sure there are more

[Christopher Hedges]

PRO:
Each set of knives is ~$20.
Knives are HSS so they can be touched up with a stone or scary sharp method
Custom ground knives would be relatively inexpensive.


CON:
Initial cost of the head is around $130
Knives are not carbide so they won't last as long.

Those are off the top of my head. I am sure there are more

Thanks for quick reply. What about fit of components with euro blocks vs fixed. Seems like the later can be shimmed to achieve perfect fit while the first you have to rely solely on the accuracy of the grind on the knives.

[Bill Dufour]

If you are making a matched set of say cope and rail then you really want two cutterheads that can be switched back and forth. That advantage goes to solid cutters and a shim. I would guess most folks only run 2-6 profiles most of the time so not sure how much money separate knives would really save.
If you are a commercial shop how much labor cost is it to switch knives around and then realign the three knives to each other. Probably costs 2-5 dollars each time?
I believe some of the older heads are banned in commercial shops since knife retention can be problematic. talk to your insurance company and OSHA before investing in a new head system
Bill D.

[Andy Giddings]

There are adjustable mission style shaper cutters with inserts or with solid heads available from Amana. +1 on Cary's comments re the Pros/Cons

[Martin Wasner]

If you are a commercial shop how much labor cost is it to switch knives around and then realign the three knives to each other. Probably costs 2-5 dollars each time?

More than that. Five dollars only pays an employee making $25/hr (but costing more like $30), for ten minutes. I can swap knives pretty quickly, but changing three heads to change profiles would take me a minimum of five minutes a head, and probably closer to ten if it's in the machine. When replacing knives, I go through the gibs just tight enough so nothing falls out. I check alignment and tighten, then I go through and make sure they are torqued correctly. It's OCD, but knives are expensive if you mess them up for no reason other than ignorance.

We run separate heads for each profile we use on doors. Insert carbide, everything runs on pins so there's no alignment issues if everything is done correctly. A head, three backers, and three knives runs a bit less than $600 total.

I used to have the inserts sharpened, but I don't bother any longer. My carbide guy does a reasonably good job, but they're never as sharp as new.

[Mark Bolton]

A lot to me depends completely on what types of things you will be running predominantly. Cope and stick aside, a good corrugated head will give you far more capacity than euroblocks but your knife grinding costs will be a bit more. For us its about capacity. The euroblocks just dont offer enough versatility but on the other hand in our shop $100 for a small set of knives for a corrugated head is never an issue.

I have a feeling a lot of euroblock sales happen the first time and then different profiles are almost never ordered. We have a couple heads we bought for specific tasks that just collect dust. But our corrugated heads are always in and out of the machine.

[James Biddle]

The Euro blocks have limiters the limit the amount of cut that can be taken. IMO, they're required if you're hand feeding your parts, not so much with a power feeder. With cope and stick, when solid head set need to be sharpened, you send the set in the whole set so they match. But parts cut off the new set may not fit very well parts with the old. Also, it may be cheaper to swap out inserts than to stop a project to send in the set to be sharpened (hasn't happened yet, but you never know). I like having the corrugated head for a lot of cuts, and I especially like the W&H head for the shaper that allows me to share some cutters with the moulder (also they're indexed for fast setup). I've got a mixture of all of them and they each have their place.

[Wayne Lomman]

Use what works best for you. I use what you guys call euro block cutters for simple profiles and rebates and solid block for complex profiles. I'm not a fan of long unsupported cutters and chip limiters are good too.

Just a question, why are they called euro block? All of my cutters come from US, Australia, and Europe with no distinction in type. In fact my oldest solid blocks are Italian and German. Cheers

[John Lankers]

To pick up on Wayne's question, they're also called 'Universal Cutterheads'.
I have 2 40mm heads and 2 50 mm heads, both with limiters. I don't see any major flaws in them, the indexing pins have very tight tolerances and make knife installation repeatable, the knives are relatively cheap, the limiters do however increase the price.
For cope and stick cutting jobs I have the stick cutting knives installed in the bottom head and and use the feeder, the cope cutting knives are installed in the top head and all I do is change the spindle height, powerdrive on my machine makes it repeatable but a digital height gauge would suffice.
The 50 mm heads take 5.5 mm thick and 55 mm long knives, right now I have both heads stacked and set up with custom ground box joint knives. I can cut all the box joint corners of a 4 1/2" tall drawer (5/8" stock) in a single pass or when I flip the workpiece vertically 8 1/2" in 2 passes, a complete drawer takes me less than 2 minutes and once calibrated it is fully repeatable.
However, custom knives for the 2 big heads did cost me almost $400 cdn. total. These thick knives are so beefy, there is no chance they will ever vibrate or flex under load.
Euro/Universal cutterheads do sometimes pop up on ebay for very little money. I personally would avoid the so called starter kits, they include to many profiles that never get used. Buy the knives as you need them and touch them up once or twice, then toss them. How long does it take to swap a set of knives, 3 minutes?
The one caveat of HSS knives is that they can dull very quickly in man made materials and the availability of carbide knives is very limited.

[Jared Sankovich]

Knives for the euro blocks are cheap, but they have very limited cope and stick profiles if that is what your are looking for.

[Christopher Hedges]

Thank you all for the input. As usual a wealth of information. Sounds like there are multiple ways of skinning the same cat and I need to pick one and go with it.

[brent stanley]

Hi Chris, just a few additional points.
Not all knives are created equal which translates into both longevity and accuaracy of grinding. Some have used the "churned out like sausages" knives and complained of scalloping but you get what you pay for. Dimar, CMT and Felder sell the 40mm knives that are made by one mass production company and sometimes theyre not great. When the job warrents i have steel ground for me in higher quality steel to better tolerances and theyre fantastic.

The Euro blocks are great for hobbiest because you can still get thousands of linear feet from them for not much money. Its much more economical than a carbide head for every profile. Whitehill sells a head that lets you run standard 40mm plus their own 55mm steel and in addition you have a skew knife carbide head all in one package.

http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=60

B

[brent stanley]

Oh and by the way, you can get the knives tipped in carbide if you want. FYI

B

[Jeff Duncan]

Thank you all for the input. As usual a wealth of information. Sounds like there are multiple ways of skinning the same cat and I need to pick one and go with it.


Haha...not likely. The reason there are so many types of cutters is they all do different things in slightly different ways. If you only do a very limited type of work you may be able to get by with just one type of cutter. However if you do a range of work over time you'll find yourself with all different types of cutters. My advice is to start with a decent Euro head set, if you do a bit of looking you can probably find a used set and save yourself some money. And you want a set, the more knives the better, this gives you a lot of flexibility to work with. I have several sets and I use them regularly for a wide range of work.

Then if/when the need arises pick up a 2" - 3" corrugated head. You can do much larger cuts with these and they too are pretty indispensable.

If your going to do a fair amount of cabinet doors like for say a kitchen, I'd recommend a stackable set of cutters, (think Freeborn), as they are the best bet for smaller volumes of cope and stick work.

Lastly brazed tooling. I don't use a lot of it and don't think I've ever had a custom tool made. But I do own several profiles as they can also be handy for certain things. For instance a good 45 deg. chamfer cutter can be very handy. Or smaller roundover sizes that get used often etc. etc..

anyway good luck with your decision making:D
JeffD

[Phillip Gregory]

The Euro block cutters' main advantage is that you can run a bunch of different profiles (about 200) on a typical 40/50 mm Euro block and the knives are about $20 a pair for each profile. You can also get custom Euroblock knives ground cheaply, my local saw shop charges about $100 or so to make a custom pair of 40 mm knives. They are the least expensive way to do molding in wood, and generally cheaper than even poor quality router bits. You can also get a limited number of knives in carbide which last a very long time and can be used in synthetic materials.

The main advantages of fixed wing cutters are they can have a very deep profile depth and they are either tantung or carbide and last far longer than the HSS that most Euroblock knives are made of. Downside is cost, they cost a bunch more. The 4 mm thick standard 40/50 mm Euro block knives have a maximum profile depth of only 5/8", where you can have inches of depth on a fixed wing cutter. Also a fixed wing cutter is going to be rated for manual feed as it is very chip limited while the Europeans deem the not very chip limited style of Euro block widely available in the US to be only suitable for use with a feeder.

I have both types and I generally use the Euro block for shallower profiles and fixed wing cutters for deeper profiles. I hand feed but am careful and keep the fingers well away from the twirly bits.

[Christopher Hedges]

The Euro block cutters' main advantage is that you can run a bunch of different profiles (about 200) on a typical 40/50 mm Euro block and the knives are about $20 a pair for each profile. You can also get custom Euroblock knives ground cheaply, my local saw shop charges about $100 or so to make a custom pair of 40 mm knives. They are the least expensive way to do molding in wood, and generally cheaper than even poor quality router bits. You can also get a limited number of knives in carbide which last a very long time and can be used in synthetic materials.

The main advantages of fixed wing cutters are they can have a very deep profile depth and they are either tantung or carbide and last far longer than the HSS that most Euroblock knives are made of. Downside is cost, they cost a bunch more. The 4 mm thick standard 40/50 mm Euro block knives have a maximum profile depth of only 5/8", where you can have inches of depth on a fixed wing cutter. Also a fixed wing cutter is going to be rated for manual feed as it is very chip limited while the Europeans deem the not very chip limited style of Euro block widely available in the US to be only suitable for use with a feeder.

I have both types and I generally use the Euro block for shallower profiles and fixed wing cutters for deeper profiles. I hand feed but am careful and keep the fingers well away from the twirly bits.

Depth of cut has been one of my concerns. Im used to making full mortise and tenon doors so the thought of gluing something up with a 5/8 tenon kind of bothers me. I realize adding floating tenons can serve as a way around this but Id like to minimize the number of steps and shoot for something with a longer tongue.

Chris

[brent stanley]

Take a look at this Chris.

http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=60

In one head you get a limiter head, shear cut carbide rebate block with knickers, and the ability to do long tenons for passage (or other) doors including with a scribe for the profile if you want.

I got a million questions about it after an event and decided to follow up with a very amature video describing it!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z7DMBfzluY

B

[Christopher Hedges]

Thanks for the info! Great video. Looks like WhiteHill is a European manufacturer. Are you aware of a counterpart for North America?

[brent stanley]

Im not aware of anyone else making such a thing, but they are very used to dealing with the us. Their smaller one takes the ubiquitous 40mm knives so you dont have to buy them from them. If you have a custom profile you want, you can just send them a drawing via email, and the knives will show up in your mail very quickly. Carbide tipped if you want.

[Christopher Hedges]

Does yours use variable blade thicknesses? What is the max depth of cut with 40mm blades? Really appreciate the review on YouTube.

[brent stanley]

The larger one takes both the cheaper, 4mm stock if you dont need the projection, as well as the thicker stuff which would give you lots of projection. DOC with the 40mm stuff is typically 12mm (3 times thickness). Really sweet rebate block too!

[Phillip Gregory]

The standard Euroblock is a 40 mm thickness head that takes 40x4 mm or 50x4 mm knives for a 5/8" (~16 mm) depth of cut. Note that is deeper than the typical rule of thumb of 3x knife thickness, which would be 12 mm, or a little under a half an inch. There are nonstandard Euro-block-ish heads out there that take taller/thicker knives such as Amana's 60 mm x 6 mm knife head that does NOT take standard 40/50 mm knives. Those have a deeper depth of cut, but at least with Amana's, the knives are all blanks that you have to have ground yourself as they offer no stock profiles for the 60 mm x 6 mm knives like they do for the Euroblock 40 mm x 4 mm knives.

[John Lankers]

The standard Euroblock is a 40 mm thickness head that takes 40x4 mm or 50x4 mm knives for a 5/8" (~16 mm) depth of cut. Note that is deeper than the typical rule of thumb of 3x knife thickness, which would be 12 mm, or a little under a half an inch. There are nonstandard Euro-block-ish heads out there that take taller/thicker knives such as Amana's 60 mm x 6 mm knife head that does NOT take standard 40/50 mm knives. Those have a deeper depth of cut, but at least with Amana's, the knives are all blanks that you have to have ground yourself as they offer no stock profiles for the 60 mm x 6 mm knives like they do for the Euroblock 40 mm x 4 mm knives.

But it's worth it

[Phillip Gregory]

That looks like a pair of stacked 60 mm x 6 mm Amana heads with finger joint knives, am I correct?

Also, nice fences on your shaper! I built mine myself out of plywood, hardwood, toilet bolts, T track, and some 2x6s, sort of an overgrown Norm Abram router table style fence, clamped to my table with C-clamps. Serviceable enough but not nearly as fancy as yours. Sure beats the 2x4 fence the PO used, and that is the absolute least of their sins in how they treated my shaper before I got it.

[John Lankers]

Not quite, they are 50 mm heads with 50 x 5.5 mm knives installed, bought these heads used on ebay from a seller in the UK for 50 GBP incl. shipping when the exchange rate was rather favorable, best ROI!!
With the stock prepared correctly I can make a complete 4 1/2" tall drawer in under a minute and a 8 1/2" tall drawer only requires lowering the cutter by 3/8" and flipping the stock vertically.

[brent stanley]

Unfortunately i cant see your pictures John.

FYI for everyone: A problem we've run into the past on the forums with shaper tooling is with terminology so just to make sure i'm not confusing anyone:

Some people say that the "euroblock" is only the 40mm high blocks with limiters. The higher ones are just referred to as " xmm limiter heads". Not sure why, but thats how theyre referred to in the EU. Typically the Amana ones available over here dont have slots for the limiters, but i suggest using limiters. They're mandatory in much of Europe for safety.

[brent stanley]

Phillip gives a good summary of the options. With some experience, people get away with bending the maximum projection rules.

The larger whitehill combi head can run 6mm stock and they offer hundreds and hundreds of profiles off the shelf for it.

B

[Phillip Gregory]

I was only aware of the 40 mm units (with or without limiters) being called Euroblocks. The Euroblocks available here in the US generally do not have limiters, my 120 mm Amana unit does not, but their 60 mm x 6 mm insert head does.

[John Lankers]

A little explanation on the setup shown in the picture and I apologize if not everyone can see it, I'm not sure how to fix this.
The cutter heads shown are known to me as "Universal Cutter Heads with chip limiters" equipped with custom ground knives for 3/8" by 5/8" box joints. However, To keep the cost for the custom knives within reason I opted to install short blancs instead of limiters matching the box joint knives. This is not an issue for me bc. I securely gang up and double clamp the pieces to the fence on my sliding table and I'm the only bum using the machine, for all other cuts I set up the feeder.
I'm not up to date on the European regulations, but yes I have one of the Amana 40 mm cutter heads with no option to install limiters, I do use it and as with everything else in life if your mind isn't there 100% you will pay the price eventually. Even if it takes 30 minutes to set up the machine for a 1 minute cut - it is what it is and a feeder or other mechanical device should be used wherever possible.

[Christopher Hedges]

The standard Euroblock is a 40 mm thickness head that takes 40x4 mm or 50x4 mm knives for a 5/8" (~16 mm) depth of cut. Note that is deeper than the typical rule of thumb of 3x knife thickness, which would be 12 mm, or a little under a half an inch. There are nonstandard Euro-block-ish heads out there that take taller/thicker knives such as Amana's 60 mm x 6 mm knife head that does NOT take standard 40/50 mm knives. Those have a deeper depth of cut, but at least with Amana's, the knives are all blanks that you have to have ground yourself as they offer no stock profiles for the 60 mm x 6 mm knives like they do for the Euroblock 40 mm x 4 mm knives.

Interesting. Thanks for info!

[Christopher Hedges]

I looked at the Amana 61249 (60mm) and assume that the blanks mounted opposite of profiled blades are the limiters. How do they function?

[jack forsberg]

I looked at the Amana 61249 (60mm) and assume that the blanks mounted opposite of profiled blades are the limiters. How do they function?
this HSE document will explains what is going on with limiter tooling for Both Man and Mec. Not sure if the Amana is restricted through regulation here in NA

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf

[Christopher Hedges]

Good read. Seems the primary function of chip limiter is safety. Does it achieve this by limiting the depth of cut per pass to the offset between cutter and limiter?

[jack forsberg]

the tooling is less likely to draw you and the work in . And just like the old days when square head cutter blocks with bolt on knifes had the tendency to pull the work in so did they when body parts came in contact. injury was severe so the first round block were called safety blocks as they filled in the gap the square block could grab wood or you . limiter tools take this to a higher level of safety. injury when contact is made is not as bad and this is well documented . cut quality is better because you can not over feed and kick back is greatly reduced . it was fairly easy with round blocks but mounding heads were not in line with this for many years because there was no real way to limit projection from the cutter block. solid body cutter do a good job and have been around a long time but corrugated, french heads, and collars need lots of care to run safely . these have been OUTLAWED In many country in the EU. I would not start to learn the shaper/spindle moulder with non limiter tolling


364160364161

[Larry Edgerton]

In appreciation of Jacks post I will state that I have been doing this a long, long time and I do not feed by hand with any head that is not self limiting. Its either the power feed or a fixture to hold the part securely.

I have one finger that looks like the middle picture. Its not as bad as everyone makes it sound, but I certainly don't want to do it again!;)

[Rod Sheridan]

Good advice Jack, in my seminar I only recommend MAN rated tooling regardless of operator experience..........Regards, Rod.

[Martin Wasner]

In appreciation of Jacks post I will state that I have been doing this a long, long time and I do not feed by hand with any head that is not self limiting. Its either the power feed or a fixture to hold the part securely.

I have one finger that looks like the middle picture. Its not as bad as everyone makes it sound, but I certainly don't want to do it again!;)

I'll second that. It is extremely rare that anything gets hand fed on a shaper in my shop.

[jack forsberg]

In appreciation of Jacks post I will state that I have been doing this a long, long time and I do not feed by hand with any head that is not self limiting. Its either the power feed or a fixture to hold the part securely.

I have one finger that looks like the middle picture. Its not as bad as everyone makes it sound, but I certainly don't want to do it again!;)

I must say I do hand feed larry some times but i am comfortable with it . dado stacks is one when i am doing light rabbits for very short runs . Warren gave me $hit about this one ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFElBgJ_2H4


Jeff i like the pin knifes and there not costly from the UK.

[Mel Fulks]

I see hand feed as still neccesary at times, but will only do it where there is a good spring hold down.

[Phillip Gregory]

Non-limited cutters are legal and common in the US. Most of the Euroblocks in the US such as Amana's and CMT'S 40 mm units do not have limiters. Oddly enough many of the "nonstandard" size units do have limiters.

[Larry Edgerton]

I must say I do hand feed larry some times but i am comfortable with it . dado stacks is one when i am doing light rabbits for very short runs . Warren gave me $hit about this one ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFElBgJ_2H4


That one does not look bad Jack, I would do that. I was more talking like a corrugated head with a profile with a big knife projection.

[Rod Sheridan]

I must say I do hand feed larry some times but i am comfortable with it . dado stacks is one when i am doing light rabbits for very short runs . Warren gave me $hit about this one ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFElBgJ_2H4


Jeff i like the pin knifes and there not costly from the UK.

Jack, wasn't Warren complaining about a video where you were hand feeding it??

I also use the stacked dado in my shaper as I have a 30mm spindle, same as the saw.

I also use saw blades in it...................Rod.

[jack forsberg]

Jack, wasn't Warren complaining about a video where you were hand feeding it??

I also use the stacked dado in my shaper as I have a 30mm spindle, same as the saw.

I also use saw blades in it...................Rod.
Warren was right I could've had a simple feather board for that belection moulding and honestly I did try to set them up one but they were fouling the moulding and was unable to make a quick pressure shoe. Always trying to develop better ways . The fenced I made was brilliant and is basically a breakthrough fence so the work cannnot draw in . Still a good example of bad practice . I would've scolded Adam if I caught him doing it

[Rod Sheridan]

Good to hear from you Jack, I couldn't make it to Rustfest as my youngest has been in the hospital since June 5, and was having a second emergency surgery that Friday at midnight.

I have mailed your chisels to you, hope to see you next year.............Rod.

[jack forsberg]

Good to hear from you Jack, I couldn't make it to Rustfest as my youngest has been in the hospital since June 5, and was having a second emergency surgery that Friday at midnight.

I have mailed your chisels to you, hope to see you next year.............Rod.

Matt Matt told me about your boy hope things are all under control now . Did miss seeing you but of course very understandable. Was a really good year and we're hoping to talk Konrad into doing a demonstration with his hand planes . .. The support from people like you and the rest in the community is really quite remarkable and could not happen Without all of the help from the volunteers . I'll have to send you off some money for post and appreciate all your help . Perhaps you would like to do a demonstration at the show yourself though you will be restricted to vintage kit and you'll need top hats to run your 30mm. thanks Rod will see you soon

[Jeff Duncan]

Warren was right I could've had a simple feather board for that belection moulding and honestly I did try to set them up one but they were fouling the moulding and was unable to make a quick pressure shoe. Always trying to develop better ways . The fenced I made was brilliant and is basically a breakthrough fence so the work cannnot draw in . Still a good example of bad practice . I would've scolded Adam if I caught him doing it

I think most of us who earn a living doing this silliness end up using less than ideal setups from time to time. I sometimes do things I'd never let an employee do, but I also have a decent understanding of what I'm doing and if something goes wrong, where and how it might do so. I hand feed from time to time and use various methods to do so while trying to keep as safe as possible. Of course as much as some things I do seem dangerous to others, I'm sure some things Jack does would seem too much for me! It's to a great degree about an individuals experience, and anyone not comfortable with an operation, especially on the shaper, should probably re-think it;) While it's probably one of the most flexible machines in the small shop and opens so many doors, it's also one of the most dangerous because of that flexibility.

JeffD

[Warren Lake]

I can see it now a post of our bad practices dont mind going first :) then again and again

[Warren Lake]

this is making me mental last post Jeff Duncan respond to it go back to the forum and my post is below Mels post on hand feeding.

[jack forsberg]

I can see it now a post of our bad practices dont mind going first :) then again and again
great idea you go first but i got lots of content

[Warren Lake]

is this sort of like confession :) not sure its a great idea but its reality of stuff ive done making a living. never made a folder of me misbehaving. The rules are passed based on the choosen parameters. Came with a machine from a company that made nice kitchens, he did 3/4 ply big pieces not single boxes attached, if he made an island and it was 10 feet long then it was a 10 foot island one piece if it fit in the home, same as the old guy made stuff in the old days. Head normally on another shaper with a feeder with a 3/16 metal strip on the bottom of the fence, run on a track feeder. Knife extends below the head and cuts the panel flat, In this case dull but wanted to try it on another machine that has sliding table before i took the table apart to sort it out. This was run at the slowest RPM and on the other machine slowest speed setting one pass. Panel had be run before and was just a scrap sitting around this photo easier than searching more at the moment. Worth noting I got a few heads from him and was looking one day and noticed that one of them had more serrations I dont remember now if this was his set up or if I chose the head with more serrations. Have detailed notes somewhere and photos once I realized it. I also have a dummy blank in there something that as not in there and my way of thinking should be, you can see it sitting over the knife.

364244

[Mel Fulks]

Warren,some of the 4 knife corg heads will distort without blanks in them. That can make it impossible to get the head to fit on to the spindle. I've encounterd that but can't say now whether it was brand related.
sorry,Warren I misunderstood. I agree the blank you show should not be there, but the two unused spots should have a blank between gib and head.

[Warren Lake]

Hi Mel

thanks so did I misunderstand I always have all the gibs in ithey should never be empty, been told you should tighten your way around as you tighten, Martin has mentioned that as well good to hear things over. My thought you see my little knfe blank there was that without it its going to have a tendency to distort the gib or more of a possibility. I really depends where that allen screw is if if falls on the knife or if it falls a certain amount away. Appreciate you bringing that up. Does anyone know a torque spec on these im always curious to put a number on them., Asked two shaper manufacturers top nut torque spec and after a few times gave up on both of them.

Shot is at an angle so it looks like the allen screw falls on the knife but really its above it, just like you dont see the flat under the head of the knife it looks more like its on the outside. Oh I see why short blank in the non knife slots. Why do you need the blank in the open spaces? thats new to me as the gib is still putting pressure there? never seen it before in the shops I was in but have lots of photos will look sometimes I dont see things then later looking at photos see all kinds of things I did not notice. Head goes on and off perfectly however if there is a better way im open to it for sure.

[Martin Wasner]

364244

A little bit of pee comes out looking at that picture. There a whole lot of nope going on there.

[Mel Fulks]

Well, since the some of the 4 knife heads do distort so much that they can't be put on the spindle with only two knives,I prefer using knife "blanks" routinely when using only two knives . Especially in a shop that might have a numer of heads made by several companies ; I would rather assume that there will be trouble without the blanks than have to back up and make alteration.Ive been told that the the gib should not be tightend without engagement with knife Corgs ,so I see the use of corg blanks as neccesary.

[Phillip Gregory]

I would start by flipping the head upside down and spinning the spindle the other direction (or on my unit, using the other spindle) to run the work face down over the knives. Running work underneath knives is doable but gives me the willies due to the high likelihood of kickback if the work rises, also the knives out in the open fling chips everywhere and makes a giant mess.

[Warren Lake]

thanks Mell on that logic that makes sense to run the gib into corg not damage it easy to understand the why when there is logic behind it.

No pee so far Martin though I hear it can happen when you are older, whats with all that golden years stuff? 35 plus years ago started on this stuff not quite as much overhang and a big huge German trained guy standing over me. Just him was intimidating. I know you said you try not to hand feed I enjoy it, its just me always has been. For smaller cuts with good sharp cutters you barely hear it cut and light fluffy shavings fly off, you feel the cutter working or dont even feel it. I would not do it on this cutter by hand set up okay, not by hand one safety the other the feeder is consistent speed and pressure. As i learn and accept the newer stuff sure there is a fancy insert one that is safe and cuts great then a pretty good cost guessing at a grand but maybe its less dont know if it could cut as clean of course it would be money well spent. Irony is I usually prefer the look of flat panels

It was a different time. no cope and stick stuff there didnt even know what it was, mortise and tennon mitred profile how he did stuff. Few shops I was in had no guards anywhere on anything so learned that way. Nice when i use feather boards on stuff now. I dont flip the cutter though agree better under or in the table, former owner ran all his stuff this way and the way I had always done it was stroke the back of the panel first then size the tongue to what you want. ive found zero grief using this as wrong as some things might be. the worst issue ive had and its super serious is a power feed the Europa can not be trusted to stay where you put it. I clamp an extra block so it cant move, former owner told me that and the wheels wear battle scars. Not sure I could trust any feeder now to stay put 100 percent know they do however. I mounted the power feed on another machine left side thinking if a feeder ever moves if mounts left it will move away from the cutter normal feeling direction,. right side it turns into the cutter. Anyone ever thought that is that logical? This shaper has a track feeder you can put a panel through 3" wide across the end grain any width and it cuts well . that sold me on the usefullness of belt feeders. okay made my confession well one of them.

[jack forsberg]

Very good Point Mel that without blanks the Gibbs can distort and damage the corrugation in the block . My only comment would be is that the projection of that knife can be greatly reduced by extending the cutting action under the block. It does illustrate my point about the true thickness of corrugated steel . And the weakest portion is at the head where it would snap .

[Larry Edgerton]

I would start by flipping the head upside down and spinning the spindle the other direction (or on my unit, using the other spindle) to run the work face down over the knives. Running work underneath knives is doable but gives me the willies due to the high likelihood of kickback if the work rises, also the knives out in the open fling chips everywhere and makes a giant mess.

I find the opposite. Cutter above the work, dedicated fence with a cutter guard, smallest ring in the table supporting the work works better for me especially as I often design with small panels. I do not however use a non limiting cutter and do have a solid aluminum bar supporting the panel at the table level. Its too easy to tip small panels into the cutter doing it upside down.

[jack forsberg]

I find the opposite. Cutter above the work, dedicated fence with a cutter guard, smallest ring in the table supporting the work works better for me especially as I often design with small panels. I do not however use a non limiting cutter and do have a solid aluminum bar supporting the panel at the table level. Its too easy to tip small panels into the cutter doing it upside down.

Same here Larry but i drop a MDF top with a small hole over the spindle for support under the cutter . i then use hard wood for the 1/4" fence that is glued to that . with light cuts for small panel's and a box feed i can mill with less explosion .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqZkxEMuZYg

[Warren Lake]

this is how it came sitting in the other shop. sloppy worn fence not executed well in the first place however worked fine and they did excellent work. Lots of thoughts on these two shaper posts but not the time at the moment. Used it that way with the feeder a number of times and worked very well. Honed the knife back first but it was time for a touch up grind again so never really saw the full potential of the cleanest it could cut. Still panels came out cleaner than the brazed carbide heads I had, I never warmed up to them but first shaper was grossly underpowered.

364275

[Martin Wasner]

I'm running a four wing, carbide insert head on a SAC shaper. I don't remember the feed rate, but I think it's spinning at 4500 rpm. I've never seen anything do as good a job as that setup does. That includes running panels through a few different brands of shape n' sands. The sanding time coming off my setup is minimal. I ran a whole mess of painted casing for a buddy out of poplar, with fresh knives we didn't even bother sanding the profile.

[Phillip Gregory]

I find the opposite. Cutter above the work, dedicated fence with a cutter guard, smallest ring in the table supporting the work works better for me especially as I often design with small panels. I do not however use a non limiting cutter and do have a solid aluminum bar supporting the panel at the table level. Its too easy to tip small panels into the cutter doing it upside down.

Many of the Euroblock profiles have one profile on one half of the knife and another profile on the other half of the knife. My double spindle shaper with threaded on spindle tops requires me to put the head on the other spindle to turn it in the opposite direction after flipping it over, and sometimes I admit I will run the knife on top of the work to keep the head on the same spindle, as I have another cutter on the other spindle that I do not want to disturb for one reason or another. I think I am in the same line as other Creekers in not running any kind of a dedicated setup as I am running a bunch of one offs/small batches rather than running thousands of pieces on one setup without touching it. I don't find any trouble in tipping a face down piece into a below the workpiece cutter as my table is large enough from edge to spindle to prevent that. The machine is also extremely stable as it weighs over a ton.

[Warren Lake]

Jack have you read somewhere that knife projection is based on the bottom of the groove? i never have its been three times the thickness. Thats based on stuff, maybe you read that somewhere if so can I read that ? ive talked to enough grinders trained guys like Weinig machines and no one has ever brought that up but maybe they didnt think of it at the time and i didnt think to ask. The last grinder I saw who sells insert said when you come to me I ask you a 1000 questions hes been in it 40 years so I can ask him.

Knife projection number is based on all the parameters that affect that. based on how I run it you would be able to chew through that knife before you would ever break it off. Parameters make all the difference the rating on projection is based on them. The bottom of the serrations is minimal diff, its .030 down, they are V shaped and that whole area is not reduced. I dont know enough about metal but im not so sure that is an instant total difference to the thickness.

Martin thanks on the four cutter been on the run too much to have tried the insert yet. Ill hand feed it with old cutters in first to see how it feels, then put new inserts in in and see how it feels and clean it is I did a quarter inch slot testing on cherry years back dadoe blades 8" then 5" single carbide slot head then a corrugated knife that had a shape that was like the slot. the corrugated blew the other stuff away in that it has less resistance in feeding then no chip out on the edges of the slot, I didnt climb cut the carbide and the dadoes were not sharpened yet the slot cutter appeared to be freshly sharpened then it was a smaller radius and and it was all run at 3.500 RPM.

IM sure Mel has stated that he got clean enough cuts off M2 on panel raises that it didnt have to be sanded maybe depending on what it was. We know it wont have mileage of the insert carbide and we know the insert will be sharper and cut better than the old style brazed. Im kinda hoping the insert wont be fantastic as will be wanting alot of new stuff, one step at a time. I also cross grained that slot on the cherry and was surprised how well it cut. Anyway been to long since testing and comparing and time to do it again and document stuff. Anytime you are running stuff welcome seeing a close up of some panel raises just how clean it is on a few diff woods to have an idea. even if you said you never need to sand id still be sanding stained stuff on end grain to a finer level to even out any stuff being stained. Anyway im curious I should ask the new insert place I just went to not super far and stuff is made in Italy.

Mel I was thinking if the gibs are already damaged a bit on the two blank slots it wont really matter I only run two kniives. Were you running four 95 percent of the time in shops I saw two knies in shapers and even mostly in molders though did see some of the big heads that had four

When I mentioned that to Jack about the out of rules stuff I was only joking after he said go ahead I thought I should not have joked about that and almost didnt post. I ended up putting that on then thinking nah nothing positive gained from this but like many posts stuff comes in from all different angles and there is valuable discussion and points brought up that relate or are of interest as well. So some positive discussion does come from it.

[Mel Fulks]

Warren, I have never had a set of four in any employment. Just two knives whether bought or made by me or someone else in shop. A very few times Ive used two different sets at one time in a four knife head to save time . But since knife movement with corg is one NOTCH at time (as different from move to right spot) it does not happen often.

[Larry Edgerton]

Many of the Euroblock profiles have one profile on one half of the knife and another profile on the other half of the knife. My double spindle shaper with threaded on spindle tops requires me to put the head on the other spindle to turn it in the opposite direction after flipping it over, and sometimes I admit I will run the knife on top of the work to keep the head on the same spindle, as I have another cutter on the other spindle that I do not want to disturb for one reason or another. I think I am in the same line as other Creekers in not running any kind of a dedicated setup as I am running a bunch of one offs/small batches rather than running thousands of pieces on one setup without touching it. I don't find any trouble in tipping a face down piece into a below the workpiece cutter as my table is large enough from edge to spindle to prevent that. The machine is also extremely stable as it weighs over a ton.

By small panels I am talking panels like this, some with flats of less than an inch. I do very little cabinet work, mostly furniture.

364320

My shaper weighs in at 3400#, a double spindle as well but with both motors being reversible so that's not it. These are too small to do with a power feed, so I have a fixture made for it and do it by hand. For me my results are better with the cutter on top and I do not feel it is unsafe, in fact quite the opposite. Everyone has their comfort zone and methods that work for them with the machinery available.

[jack forsberg]

Jack have you read somewhere that knife projection is based on the bottom of the groove? i never have its been three times the thickness. Thats based on stuff, maybe you read that somewhere if so can I read that ? ive talked to enough grinders trained guys like Weinig machines and no one has ever brought that up but maybe they didnt think of it at the time and i didnt think to ask. The last grinder I saw who sells insert said when you come to me I ask you a 1000 questions hes been in it 40 years so I can ask him.

Knife projection number is based on all the parameters that affect that. based on how I run it you would be able to chew through that knife before you would ever break it off. Parameters make all the difference the rating on projection is based on them. The bottom of the serrations is minimal diff, its .030 down, they are V shaped and that whole area is not reduced. I dont know enough about metal but im not so sure that is an instant total difference to the thickness.



When I mentioned that to Jack about the out of rules stuff I was only joking after he said go ahead I thought I should not have joked about that
Warren you're not gonna read about that in the woodwork book . That's just machinist metal working knowledge . If you asked your saw Dr. how he cuts blanks he just scores it and snaps it off. high-speed steel is pretty Brittle stuff . Honestly what your show there was not horribly unsafe in the right hands and didn't want you to feel that you were carrying the torch all by yourself so I'll post something a little more scary .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Wa7D88rCU

[Warren Lake]

doesnt seem scarey to me used to jointers no guard from the start. That stuff I have a small moulder and had a corrugated head made for it so I can use those cutters on either machine. Nice profile

Thats new to me on the bar stock. There are different grades and I see the grain run length ways in the material. Ive given blanks before for grinding and had the comment from a guy his whole life in the moulding bus say this is very high quality steel and I should have questioned him on that. Ive only ever seen anyone cut this stuff on cut off wheels even on sites that advertise as grinders and show the process.

There are parameters for this stuff and things are run way below them cutter head runs at 6,600 RPM its run at 2,900 RPM with this Cutter, Feed rate is the slowest. The cutting surface is a fraction of the cutter there is lots of height over the material removal amount there which makes it stronger and, and id have to sit down but there are a number of things that work in favour. I have five or six double sets diff profiles from a shop with 10 people doing quality custom stuff with no issues. They ran that at the low speed as well so it proved itself. I'll check into it more, illl gravitate to the newer cutters but im not leaving this stuff just like that. Years back I called a tooling manufacturer. They put me to the owner, He said I wont talk to you about that. I said wait and talked for a minute, he said okay I will talk to you. This was about serrated and I got that he had had law suits with out even him saying a word. It went as far in the talk as him sending me the original drawings of his for the worm screw in Serrated heads. He had two employees as well I met at a show one ran serrated, he told me he always crouched below the machine for a bit when he started it, seemed odd to me but then I hold a thick board in front of me out of habit for a minute or so. Ill explore the insert thing more, im cynical about stuff till I see it. IS there a you tube of a guy running a raised panel one pass and a close up of the end grain to see how clean it is?




My truck is 45 years old, it has no air bags and no ABS I feel safe ive never had an accident. Ive always had marginal cars though a good one now. My friend works now only on high end cars, in the past when he worked on all stuff he said of his customers the ones with the crappiest cars had the fewest accidents as they have an awareness and drive a certain way. I rode bikes from 12 to 30 trail stuff street and motocross. My friend just sold his Ninja as he spent too much time on the back wheel at over highway speeds. that is operator error he is an excellent driver but it struck him he was a millisecond away from life changing stuff. In europe in the 80's two bikes passed me two people on each bike I thought wow they are serious here full leathers and all non of us did that here at that time. Later in the day traffic jam ambulances all four people dead bikes were toast no front wheels. Someone pulled out, Last weekend two bikes wiped out four people I only heard a bit, north of here guy was an outstanding community member even the mayor went to the funeral, him and his girlfriend gone. He did nothing wrong some idiot took them out if I was told right. I had stuff happen on bikes sometimes on the highway, I was always calm about it I was lucky and what struck me was the cars were sometimes more afraid than me when they realized. That stuff scares me as we do all stuff right and its not always up to us no matter how aware we are. My mom told me a few years ago that she always worried when I went out on the bike that I might never come home, I felt bad when she said that, maybe way too many years later she told me. Her father had a shop in his home, she said more than once he cut a finger off and then put it on the bookshelf. Her parents were divorced I only met him a few times he built her windows for her home and she had them for 50 years. Im just talking out loud about safety stuff, she worried about the bike then her father set the precedent for her to worry about what I'be been doing for years. Im a worry some son :)

[Larry Edgerton]

When I had my old Porter jointer I used it for a molder a couple of times. The tables slid back to allow profiled knives. Was tough to set up but worked well with a power feed. I Kind of wish I had kept that jointer when I downsized but it took up a lot of real estate. flat belt drive and all.

On the knife projection thing. I agree with Warren that it is subjective to what is being expected of the knife. I have some 5/16" knives with an 1 1/2" projection but they were made to cut restoration moulding in Versatec and I do not use them with wood. I have some knives like the one in Warrens picture but I had them cut taller so there was more steel to spread out the stress.

The thing is we learned all of this stuff along the way. We pretty much know how a machine/cutter is going to react before we ever put the wood to the cutter because we have made a few mistakes along the way along with years of conversations with other professionals. Like adjusting speed and feed rates to accommodate the cut and material, this is stuff that is learned to some extent by our experience, and books do not cover some of the weird stuff we end up having to do. I think it is best to advise amateurs with an eye to caution. There are a lot of things I do I would not let an employee do.

[Warren Lake]

yeah thanks on that Larry, I was thinking so many times how we do things based on what we have, bored out sears molding heads to make beaded face frames, its funny now looking back. I have tons of that stuff and diff sized heads. Junky stuff but it had good reach the way they were made, inconsistent quality but it got stuff done at the time. probably time to thin out the herd and move forward

[Phillip Gregory]

By small panels I am talking panels like this, some with flats of less than an inch. I do very little cabinet work, mostly furniture.

364320

My shaper weighs in at 3400#, a double spindle as well but with both motors being reversible so that's not it. These are too small to do with a power feed, so I have a fixture made for it and do it by hand. For me my results are better with the cutter on top and I do not feel it is unsafe, in fact quite the opposite. Everyone has their comfort zone and methods that work for them with the machinery available.

Running something small with a decent sized fixture it is attached to is a totally different scenario than just running it along the fence- for example using a sled with a couple of hold-downs. The workpiece in the sled may not be large but the sled is and has plenty of bearing surface to run against the fence or table edge to keep the workpiece from getting angled into the cutter. Hand feeding something in a sled is safe as well as your hands are quite a bit away from the cutterhead, on mine (a Whitney No. 134) it's about 18 inches. I won't feed something less than about a foot long running against the fence without a sled or other jig as that really would be risky to tip the trailing edge of the workpiece into the cutterhead horizontally (identically to trying to edge joint something too short on a jointer.)

Unless you have excellent guarding over the top of your entire cutterhead, running knives on top sprays the chips around quite a bit. Running knives underneath has the workpiece deflect the chips below the table surface and to the rear of the fence, both areas where there is a dust collector port to suck them up.

[Mel Fulks]

One easy way of running small drawer fronts, and other narrow stuff is run them face down with wide material. Then rip them to finished width. Line them up end to end face down and staple on a strip of plywood, run on shaper and remove from plywood.
Pretty standard before newer machines.

[jack forsberg]

have you guys ever seen this for a spindle moulder. Its all about holding the work for hand feed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8uXyJ8La7o

[Larry Edgerton]

That is a pretty cool fixture Jack, would open up a lot of easy possibilities. The indexing part is the key feature. I have made one off jigs that I threw away that that would accomplish easily.

Cool.

[lowell holmes]

I use a small wooden screw clamp to hold the wood when running the wood past router cutters.
I have wooden push blocks and stick (two handed) when using my shaper. My machine has hold
down springs that keep the wood on the table. I always feed the with a push block or stick.